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Wario's Match-Ups!

Iota

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..Does Seibrik even know the MU though? That really sounds like you were outplaying him solidly to me. Tires are definitely useful in the MU, it's just that they're extremely hard to set up while MK's onstage. I'd really want to hear what you have to say about the MU and what your opinion on the ratio is.
 

xzx

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I've played against a few good MKs that know the Wario matchup quite well. Gotta say, they don't **** me when I pull the bike out generally. Sure, they score a gimp from time to time but hey that's the risk you take. Let me tell you this: I would much rather have a tire in my hand against MK than not have one.
I would say: I would rather much don't have a tire against MK simultaneously that the risk of getting gimped vanishes! =S

The only time I find worth getting out the bike is when MK has died or is offstage or if he is camping near the edge. If you haven't broken the bike before MK is approaching you have to leave the bike and try to somehow break it when you find an opening! =S Risky as hell, and it gives MK more tools to scare us. But I believe that the tires help Wario in this MU, but it is not worth the risk of getting gimped.
 

Waymas

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Its obviously in mk advantage i play with tires aswell and you have to be really accurate with all youre moves especially with the waft! He will prolly die at 60% or 70% , prolly one of the the safest things maybe its airdodge to grab or if you guess a fair you can fair him xD. If its a defensive mk youre gonna have a really hard time so i really suggest be patient dont approach and play safe. Tires will help you a ton but is risky to pull youre bike so be careful . -1 wario at its best.

:phone:
 

TheReflexWonder

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I'll be honest--I haven't played a Meta Knight in a long time, but I think that there isn't that great a risk in having your bike out (people need to get used to SDI-ing as many A attacks of Meta Knight's as possible to minimize damage and bad positioning). Wario has a pretty usable recovery even without his bike, due to his amazing horizontal aerial mobility and airdodges to the ground being so safe for him and in general. Even if we don't have our bike, we have a better recovery against Meta Knight than most characters.

Given that many of Meta Knight's attacks are multi-hit moves, hitlag from attacking the bike would probably give us a little more leeway. I believe his shorthop aerials cleanly avoid hitting a grounded bike, but, depending on his positioning, his options may be limited. An F-Tilt command will make him pick up the bike, and D-Tilt/D-Smash/F-Smash/Shuttle Loop will have some hitlag, potentially allowing us to punish where we could not in a normal situation.

After a shorthop F-Air, if we run in, roughly half of his go-to options are easier to punish if you guess correctly (or react to his F-Smash grunt and airdodge straight through him); much better to have to guess once rather than twice. He still has more than enough to play with us pretty easily, but, it does put pressure on his choices. His unaffected options are his rolls, spotdodge, shorthop aerials (especially U-Air), and grab options, most of which he puts himself out with no hitbox to attack with. Oh, and, Mach Tornado, but, **** Meta Knight.

For all it's worth, the "throwing the bike up with your back turned" thing works well against Meta Knight, due to his burning desire to running grab you when you pick up the bike, which gives you a gimmicky bait against people who don't know any better and a decent mix-up of "he can still throw it down or forward to hurt my other options" against people who are wary of the bait situation. This allows you to get damage on the bike while being far from helpless (though still not a good situation if the opponent knows what is safe). I wonder if throwing the bike upward with your back turned can stuff Mach Tornado, too...

The thing is, part of why we lose so badly to Meta Knight is because he has an absurd amount of options that we can't do anything about unless we make, like, two hard reads in advance. His character design just works really well in defending against Wario. The stuff listed above gives us a chance to weaken/negate some options to make it somewhat more reasonable.

As for tires, sure, he can't destroy them with his A attacks, but he has a stupid amount of speed, small size, and some fantastic B moves for getting rid of them. The biggest immediate advantages are protecting ourselves when above Meta Knight, like Toon Link does with his bombs, being able to reliably punish Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop (as far as I can tell), and getting free damage on his shorthop aerials (though I'm not sure if we can do it on reaction, since Wario's item throw is slow). Anything that limits Meta Knight's safeness is useful in my book.

We also get to put him into sense paralysis, as his ridiculous wall of pokes cannot be thrown out freely, unless he doesn't mind risking extra damage. Of course, nothing stops him from catching the tires or instant throwing back if he isn't doing shorthop aerials, but, just getting him to have to think about what options he must do is helpful in itself, as Wario is all about pressure.

Also, to be fair, even if Meta Knight gets a tire, he can't do much with it to disrupt our general game plan. If we have another bike on the stage, his tire will bounce off harmlessly, unless he throws it from the air, which is easily caught/instant thrown/whatever.
 

waldorf2007

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Does anyone else think that we're focusing too much on tires? Against top tiers how often are you reasonably going to be able to pull these things out?
I can see the argument if, EVERY time you throw or smash them, you run to the edge ot jump and pull out the bike, you could get tires pretty often. But if you do, you sacrifice momentum and control of the middle.
I only pull out tires if I hit an opponent away at >100% and can't really chase them, or in between stocks. Sure, once I have them I'm beasting, but it's really not happening that much. I need to see some compelling videos aobut how wario can ALWAYS have tires before I start talking like Pwneroni.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Meta Knight is ********. We're grasping at straws because we don't have much of a choice in this matchup, IMO.
 

waldorf2007

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ah, there it is. Was waiting for that lol.
Wario still does better than DK at it IMO so I still need any help i can get.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I think everyone else is just terribly optimistic about it, but, on a general level, one of the important things related to MK is that his A attacks don't "eat" tires, so a lot of otherwise-wasteful tire throws can theoretically work well on Meta Knight.

A lot of his other traits make it difficult to get and keep tires without the effort being a waste, though.
 

Pwneroni

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I am not grasping at straws, I am grasping a large bazooka pointed directly at MK LOL xD

Wario can get tires fairly often but I really try to mix it in with normal Kung Fu fighting. If you create some space, you can standing Insta-crash the bike and throw it up or down. Not only does this give life to a moving heavy projectile on the field, but it slowly takes down the bike's health. The bike won't be destroyed by throwing it alone, you have to hit it with a few aerials before it will break. There are many ways to get tires out, while simultaneously utilizing the bike itself as a tool of destruction. Honestly I've probably netted more damage against MK with a bouncing bike than throwing tires!
 

xzx

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I am not grasping at straws, I am grasping a large bazooka pointed directly at MK LOL xD

Wario can get tires fairly often but I really try to mix it in with normal Kung Fu fighting. If you create some space, you can standing Insta-crash the bike and throw it up or down. Not only does this give life to a moving heavy projectile on the field, but it slowly takes down the bike's health. The bike won't be destroyed by throwing it alone, you have to hit it with a few aerials before it will break. There are many ways to get tires out, while simultaneously utilizing the bike itself as a tool of destruction. Honestly I've probably netted more damage against MK with a bouncing bike than throwing tires!
No, the bike can be destroyed by simply twrowing it. It will lose X amount of health every time it bounces.
 

Jebu-95

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I prefer destroying it by throwing it up and then doing a charged U-smash to break it. U-smash has really lackluster uses so it doesn't really matter if I stale it. U-tilt is good too IMO.

oh yeah, about Metaknight... meh, I'll just stick to the same old thing. Quit double jumping for no reason.
Nah but other than that, spacing with retreating bairs is crucial. Fastfalled nair to f-tilt spacing is pretty good if you want to apply pressure right infront of him. It won't always beat his spacing options but it's a mixup to be considered. Use your fart's wisely. They can really turn the table around in a MU like this. Juggling him is also pretty easy. Throw him up rather than offstage. You won't be gimping him or pressuring him offstage any day. Your U-air is really threatening to him if he's above you, especially due to MK's slow air speed.
 

Tesh

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I wouldn't break the bike with upsmash unless you just killed your opponent. Its way too maybe hits/hitlag to do safely, even if your opponent has just been knocked away.
 

PieDisliker

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It's best to usually combine throwing it with hitting it to break the bike. Sometimes you'll get punished if you're too worried about breaking the bike, though. I gotta watch my opponent more before I decide to hit my bike.
 

xzx

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I always up throw the bike and starts up-tilting it OR bike crash/getting out the bike in the first turn and starts up-tilting it. I find these ways really quick.
 

Pwneroni

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One problem i've found with using tires against MK is simply GETTING the tires. Many of Wario's moves, when used as the KO for the bike, make the tires fly in crazy directions. There are a few moves that may help keep tires near you, and not fly off the stage.

The multi-hit part of Dair is one of these moves, I believe. If you break the bike with the first hits of Dair, not the last strong hit, then the tires don't fly very far at all! You may then grab them and use accordingly.
 

xzx

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I don't even know why many Wario's dair the bike. It's better to use other moves to break it since dair sends the tires in random directions.

Also, for all Wario mains who haven't given a ratio about this MU, please give one. I think we are getting close to discuss Diddy Kong.
 

Pwneroni

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Yes, my theory was correct as I tested it last night. The multi hit of Dair basically puts the tires right in front of you! I was juggling 5 TIRES at one point, none degrading at all! Any after that will require the services of another Wario.
 

Tesh

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So what assuming to bike is out at full health, what should be our bike bringing combo to make sure it breaks during the multihit?

Can't say I've played the matchup much from Wario side. Tires never really bother me a whole lot as MK. Bouncing them around limits him a little, but he can be just as patient as you are, break tires with shield (and there is barely anything you can do about this), shuttle loop, nado, drill rush. For all the work and risk you might put yourself through getting tires, they are short lived. One wrong move with your bike out (nobody is perfect), and you could wind up separated from it and on the wrong side of an edgeguard.

Personally as MK I liked to grab release Wario (ground or air i dont care), because of his slow jump, jab/tilts and rolls he is pretty crummy if he ground releases.
Its hard to really count Wario out in any matchup when you consider fart. MK is light and if you can catch him being overzealous with OoS options, you can score some early kills.

-1 or -2 I'd say.
 

Pwneroni

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I agree to -1 against MK. The bike and tires are not yet perfected, but there is potential in them I know it for sure. My time as Wario will be directed to advance this sector of his metagame.

MK is very light, yes. I killed 2 MKs at around 50%, both in tournament :O MK may have the range and quickness on us, but we have a portable nuclear bomb that comes out in 4 frames.

A really great way was discovered by that one dude.... damn I forget his name but it's a really great way to get a tire quick. Basically it's....

Bike Dthrow -> Nair1 and 2 -> airdodge to pick up a tire. This works so as you Nair the bike, it bounces 2 times (once when you throw it, bounces once) and then on the third bounce it will break. You should be in the air at this point, airdodging exactly when it breaks. You will instantly grab a tire. I'll list some other ways after my testing tonight. I'll be writing in my smash journal for an hour or two on this subject.
 

xzx

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I once throwed my bike upwards on a Marth and blocked his escape with nair (nair made the Marth got hit with every single bounce until the bike broke). That was awesome, since he got damage about around 90%-100% or so. I occasionally use the bike instead of tires sometimes... the tires will come after the bike breaks and then it is time for the tire play.

What should I do in the OP - set the MK Mu as -1 or -2?
 

Xatic

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MK isn't too hard for me in most cases.

The biggest problem I have is landing against him after I use my double jump. Even if I airdodge to the ground he'll just tornado where I'm landing. However, If I keep my double jump and stay patient about it, the match-up isn't too bad imo.

Wario vs. MK is -1 to me. could be -2 though
 

Lord Chair

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MK isn't too hard for me in most cases.

The biggest problem I have is landing against him after I use my double jump. Even if I airdodge to the ground he'll just tornado where I'm landing. However, If I keep my double jump and stay patient about it, the match-up isn't too bad imo.

Wario vs. MK is -1 to me. could be -2 though
What the **** am I reading LOL.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Keeping your double-jump against Meta Knight will only help defensively unless he's overcommitting like crazy. It prevents him from getting free/safe punish attempts and helps you not die when you're above him or recovering, but, he is an exceptionally difficult character to get in on vertically by rolling the dice with an airdodge or flattening your body with N-Air.

The biggest problem should be dealing damage at all. He will not let you get close to touching him a vast majority of the time, and when you make a good read and manage to get in, he still has the benefit of getting all the stupid defensive options that Brawl gives to everyone, as well as stupidly fast and safe moves.

I'm still pretty adamant about -2. This matchup is balls for us.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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What?

Wario is so fat. MK is thin. Wario has Fsmash. MK's Fsmash never hits.
MK dies at like 80% if you Fsmash through, OH I DUNNO, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS MOVES INCLUDING TORNADO?

How is this not 0 or +1 Wario?
 

TheReflexWonder

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What?

Wario is so fat. MK is thin. Wario has Fsmash. MK's Fsmash never hits.
MK dies at like 80% if you Fsmash through, OH I DUNNO, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS MOVES INCLUDING TORNADO?

How is this not 0 or +1 Wario?
It's always better to assume that people mean well.

Meta Knight dies at, like, no less than 110% from F-Smash if he correctly DIs.

F-Smash doesn't have enough super armor to reliably beat anything without massive frame advantage and making people panic in an offensive manner.

We can't get in on anything. We move too slowly on the ground and have no reasonable grounded options to compete with him. We have no range to compete with him in shorthop space. If he just camps near the ground, we can't do anything but hope we get lucky with reads. Thankfully, he is light and we are heavy, so we can make a lot of mistakes and not be too bad off.
 

Tesh

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What?

Wario is so fat. MK is thin. Wario has Fsmash. MK's Fsmash never hits.
MK dies at like 80% if you Fsmash through, OH I DUNNO, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS MOVES INCLUDING TORNADO?

How is this not 0 or +1 Wario?
In my experience, Fsmash still won't hit MK if he was spaced correctly.
 

Pwneroni

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LOL Lord Chair you made double jumping the new cool thing on the block xD I'm stickin with mah tires!
 

xzx

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Okay, so...

Xatic: -1
xzx: -2
TheReflexWonder: -2

I want more confirms from you guys! Pwneroni, dynomite!, Labernash, Croi etc. What ratio do you put on MK?

Also, one thing I completely love with Wario in this (stupid) MU is that F-tilt is such a suprise killer against MK. I don't know why it is, but I almost always kill MK with an f-tilt. I swear, about 40% of my kills against MK is by an f-tilt. You guys should try it too, seriously! <(^.^<)
 

TheReflexWonder

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If Meta Knight just makes sure not to advance and walks backward a little most of the time he lands, F-Tilt will get you grabbed or Dash Attacked a lot.
 

Pwneroni

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MK is a really great character. If he plays frame perfect, it will be really tough to fight against him. However, if Wario is frame perfect then I believe the matchup could be possibly even if he utilizes tires perfectly. Tires give Wario needed range and help with stage control, as well as opening up some cool combos and punishes. It is for this reason that I think the matchup at the moment is 60/40 in Metaknight's favor, or -1 for Wario.

One day when tires have evolved enough, I believe the matchup will be even. Until the metagame advances to that level though, Wario is at slight disadvantage.
 

Labernash

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My personal opinion is -2.

At the VERY TOP of both characters Meta Game, -2. It IS possible to be -1, but I never experienced those numbers.
 
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