Wario Q&A Thread

[A2ZOMG]

Uh, Ally and Bassem have said in the past that Falcon beats Wario. I'm inclined to agree.

Wario really can't do anything to get in on Falcon's autoJab and U-air. Like quite seriously, he doesn't have the tools to approach a Falcon camping with those moves. All dodges and a lot of Wario's moves in general especially on the ground get ***** by the autoJab (the fact Ally forgot to autoJab is LITERALLY the only reason why he lost to Gluttony, since Gluttony got away with waaaaaay too many spotdodges in that set). U-air ***** almost everything in the air. It's deceptively easy for Falcon to grab Wario for the simple fact that he has a lot of mobility and he is REALLY good at limiting Wario's options.

As for scoring the kill, it's debatable. Though I'd say Falcon has an easier time killing than Wario given the grab release shenanigans. What Wario has to do to avoid them simply means he has to be more in Falcon's U-air range, meaning he's probably taking a lot of damage in this matchup whether he likes it or not. On the other hand, Falcon kinda hates not having real landing options besides Falcon Kick, so he's a fairly easy target for land trap juggles which basically are all Wario should need to score the kills he needs. But then I will go back to the argument that Wario's approaches on Falcon are CRAP. Falcon walls Wario better than the other way around. If Wario Bites Falcon, who gives a crap? It's not gonna lead to a kill. If Falcon Jabs Wario, there's gonna be some real problems especially if there isn't a platform nearby.

I'd put the matchup 55/45 Falcon's favor. The only thing preventing this matchup from being something like 70/30 Falcon is the fact Falcon's landing options are RIDICULOUSLY bad, which means he actually can be killed, and the fact that he has to slow down a little to deal with Bite. Both characters have good mobility. Falcon walls better and kills better in this matchup, and even if you claim that Wario can avoid the grabs, it's not clear that it's worth it for him to try that given Falcon has more than enough ways to get the damage he wants on Wario.

The logic that Wario is high tier and thus should win against a low tier like Falcon is faulty. There are such things as counters in fighting games. Guile is low tier in vanilla SF4, but beats Zangief for instance since Zangief by design has bad tools to deal with dedicated zoning. Wario is mostly well rounded although he has a weakness of having the worst range and some of the worst spacing moves in the game. This is a godsend for Falcon, who normally loses to a lot of characters since he is bad at winning exchanges, but against Wario, that isn't an issue for him, so he has more freedom to actually play to his advantages, as well as Wario's weakness to grab releases.

 

[Pwneroni]

Like I've said before, Wario's tires are an awesome approach tool and are really good against Falcon. I'm sure it would be better if I had a video or something showing what I'm talking about, but sadly there are.... wait a second.... my friend Viviff has a pretty **** Falcon! Wow! I could totally get some matches recorded against it and show y'all the power of tires! Yeeeeesh!

Oh and Falcon's jab is really great, but you can SDI it so it does not consistently lead into grab anymore. I would definitely say this matchup is even, because I've played against tons of Falcons and lemme tell you that grab release is a *****! haha. However, I truly believe that tires give Wario an edge in the matchup.

One more thing: yeah sure Bite is good, but it is not the indicator of a matchup. It is good against him, but of course if the player is smart and can think a step ahead then he can punish a Wario for biting. Bite imo is best used as a mixup against their shield, if you attack with Dair and Nair a lot then you can throw in a shorthop bite every once in a while to score a good 7-9%. Yep, that's some sick damage right there xD

 

[Lord Chair]

Stop being an ******* for no reason.

Stop being free.

kk

 

[teluoborg]

Oh look a Falcon matchup discussion.
Well how convenient I was passing by.

Wario/Falcon is imo 55/45 in Wario's favor.
The reason it's Wario's adv. is that his Uair, Dair and Bite are stupidly good against Falcon.
The reason it's not worse is because Falcon has his GR, his Bair, Uair, jab and up B.

Now to reply to some comments :
@B mack : Bite can be beaten by Utilt (at some angle), pivot grab, up B and Usmash (and maybe a well spaced jab, Bite's hitbox is weird). Yes Usmash beats Bite, so try not to abuse it.
It's still a stupidly good option to punish dodges/rolls/shieldgrabs and interrupt jab cancels.

@Kuro : like everyone you're blinded by GR knee and seem to forget that Falcon can also Dsmash and up angled Fsmash out of GR. Usually when I see Wario starting to DI/SDI the knee I switch to Fsmash, vertical KO guaranteed.
Also people should stop believing that "Falcon won't get any grabs at all his grab range sucks lol".
Falcon's standing grab range sucks, yes.
That makes his shieldgrabs suck, yes.
But anyway Falcon won't go for shieldgrabs because of Bite, so that's hardly relevant in this matchup.
Now his dash grab range doesn't suck at all.
And thanks to that I get a lot of free grabs on Warios that underestimate the range of dash grab and SH/land where they shouldn't.

@Pwneroni : lol tires. Falcon LOVES items.
His movespeed gives him a very good control on them.
And he has the same item tricks as Wario, due to his low landing lag aerials.
And lol, if you can really wall someone using the tires then it just means that he doesn't know how to shield/airdodge.
Also the bike, once you drop it you have to break it. It may sound stupid but if your opponent isn't a total ****** and keeps you away from it (instead of trying to break it to get the tires first) then it just means you have -1 recovery option.

@A2ZOMG : Glutonny always gets away with too many spotdodges (in France they call it "la glutonnade"), but you'd have to fight him to understand this.

--------------------------------

Ok with that done, I'd have some frame data questions :
how much hitlag does the Fart have when performed on the bike ? And Fsmash ?

 

[Pwneroni]

Oh look a Falcon matchup discussion.

@Pwneroni : lol tires. Falcon LOVES items.
His movespeed gives him a very good control on them.
And he has the same item tricks as Wario, due to his low landing lag aerials.
And lol, if you can really wall someone using the tires then it just means that he doesn't know how to shield/airdodge.
Also the bike, once you drop it you have to break it. It may sound stupid but if your opponent isn't a total ****** and keeps you away from it (instead of trying to break it to get the tires first) then it just means you have -1 recovery option.

--------------------------------

Ok with that done, I'd have some frame data questions :
how much hitlag does the Fart have when performed on the bike ? And Fsmash ?

I don't know what your source is, but Falcon's item game is not like Wario's at all. Does Falcon have a glide toss? Supreme aerial mobility? Wario's Nair? I'm sure Falcon can do some cool stuff, but Wario can make use of tires a lot more due to his floatiness. However, I have not researched into this a ton, I'm just going by experience. If you show me some of those moves with tires included, I will gladly change my opinion of Falcon's item game. Wario's tire game involves a lof of shorthop Dthrow aerials, and I think Falcon's fall speed may prevent him from having a similar style.

Walling with tires is not meant to hit your opponent. Tires disappear when they touch a hitbox or a shield, so they are more useful for trapping and baiting. The smashers I play against are fully aware of the dodging and shielding mechanics of Brawl, and yet they still get trapped and baited all the same.

You brought up the bike onstage during the match, and yes that is a valid point. While the bike is onstage, Wario does have 1 less recovery option, that is true. However, if Wario chooses to pull out his bike at specific times (such as when Falcon is recovering), it is very safe and you are not at risk of getting gimped. Quite the opposite actually, Wario + uthrow the bike + edgeguaring = reduced options for Falcon, possibly leading to big damage from the bouncing bike.

Really it would be a lot easier to show you and play you in person haha. As of now though, all I can offer is my mind.

 

[Kuro~]

Oh look a Falcon matchup discussion.
Well how convenient I was passing by.

Wario/Falcon is imo 55/45 in Wario's favor.
The reason it's Wario's adv. is that his Uair, Dair and Bite are stupidly good against Falcon.
The reason it's not worse is because Falcon has his GR, his Bair, Uair, jab and up B.

Now to reply to some comments :
@B mack : Bite can be beaten by Utilt (at some angle), pivot grab, up B and Usmash (and maybe a well spaced jab, Bite's hitbox is weird). Yes Usmash beats Bite, so try not to abuse it.
It's still a stupidly good option to punish dodges/rolls/shieldgrabs and interrupt jab cancels.

@Kuro : like everyone you're blinded by GR knee and seem to forget that Falcon can also Dsmash and up angled Fsmash out of GR. Usually when I see Wario starting to DI/SDI the knee I switch to Fsmash, vertical KO guaranteed.
Also people should stop believing that "Falcon won't get any grabs at all his grab range sucks lol".
Falcon's standing grab range sucks, yes.
That makes his shieldgrabs suck, yes.
But anyway Falcon won't go for shieldgrabs because of Bite, so that's hardly relevant in this matchup.
Now his dash grab range doesn't suck at all.
And thanks to that I get a lot of free grabs on Warios that underestimate the range of dash grab and SH/land where they shouldn't.

@Pwneroni : lol tires. Falcon LOVES items.
His movespeed gives him a very good control on them.
And he has the same item tricks as Wario, due to his low landing lag aerials.
And lol, if you can really wall someone using the tires then it just means that he doesn't know how to shield/airdodge.
Also the bike, once you drop it you have to break it. It may sound stupid but if your opponent isn't a total ****** and keeps you away from it (instead of trying to break it to get the tires first) then it just means you have -1 recovery option.

@A2ZOMG : Glutonny always gets away with too many spotdodges (in France they call it "la glutonnade"), but you'd have to fight him to understand this.

--------------------------------

Ok with that done, I'd have some frame data questions :
how much hitlag does the Fart have when performed on the bike ? And Fsmash ?

...AGAIN THAT PART WAS A JOKE...Also, i don't see wario getting grabbed easily anywhere except the likes of FD and lylat in terms of neutrals. I agree with most you said...i'll have to play mic with wario instead of snake and random fun characters to see how this mu works out.

 

[SAX]

...AGAIN THAT PART WAS A JOKE...Also, i don't see wario getting grabbed easily anywhere except the likes of FD and lylat in terms of neutrals. I agree with most you said...i'll have to play mic with wario instead of snake and random fun characters to see how this mu works out.

It's pretty hard if you don't know what you're doing. I mean, yo HAVE to play gay with wario to beat mic. That's why i believe wario wins, mic and masky, the two most patient people in the world, lol, played each other. Masky came out on top, because wario overall has the better options. 55-45.Fart on his recovery. As long as you can force falcon to the ledge, its pretty hard for falcon to get on without getting punished, not saying that falcon doesn't have ledge options of course.
This isnt the MU thread, so i think we can move off of this mu talk ^_^

 

[Kuro~]

It's pretty hard if you don't know what you're doing. I mean, yo HAVE to play gay with wario to beat mic. That's why i believe wario wins, mic and masky, the two most patient people in the world, lol, played each other. Masky came out on top, because wario overall has the better options. 55-45.Fart on his recovery. As long as you can force falcon to the ledge, its pretty hard for falcon to get on without getting punished, not saying that falcon doesn't have ledge options of course.
This isnt the MU thread, so i think we can move off of this mu talk ^_^

Every wario should at least know HOW to play safe well. I mean smart aggro is fine if u can make it work...but you should know how to be stupid safe like masky and fiction. I agreeeeeeee /subjectends

 

[teluoborg]

@SAX : Falcon dive beats the fart due to grab armor, your argument is invalid.

@Pwneroni : Yes, Falcon has a JCIT (which goes farther than most glide tosses), has a good aerial mobility, and has a Bair (that doesn't linger as long as Wario's Nair but autocancels super early). And what up with SH Dtoss ? Falcon moves fast enough to do FHs.
I also know that tires are used mainly for their lingering hitbox, thanks. That doesn't prevent people to shield/airdodge/catch them.
And yes you're right, the only safe time to pull out the bike is after you sent Falcon flying.

@Kuro : imo the worst stage to get grabs on Wario is BF. Everything else is fine for grabs, even YI.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't know what your source is, but Falcon's item game is not like Wario's at all. Does Falcon have a glide toss? Supreme aerial mobility? Wario's Nair? I'm sure Falcon can do some cool stuff, but Wario can make use of tires a lot more due to his floatiness. However, I have not researched into this a ton, I'm just going by experience. If you show me some of those moves with tires included, I will gladly change my opinion of Falcon's item game. Wario's tire game involves a lof of shorthop Dthrow aerials, and I think Falcon's fall speed may prevent him from having a similar style.

Just saying, off the top of my head, I can immediately think of Tire toss -> N-air/U-air/B-air. This is really safe for Falcon. Note that if you get hit by N-air, free grab. I don't have frame data on me but I suspect with extremely good timing Falcon actually can autocancel his B-air after a tire toss in a short hop. Even if he can't, it's still pretty safe and a good option, especially given that it does very respectable damage and knockback.

Falcon also does have a glidetoss from backwards roll as I recall. It's not a particularly long one, but it does exist. But at any rate my point is Falcon does actually have quite respectable item options.

 

[Inferno3044]

Moving to a different topic. What are general things I want to avoid at all costs besides getting grabbed?

 

[Kuro~]

Moving to a different topic. What are general things I want to avoid at all costs besides getting grabbed?

Autopilot.

 

[Pwneroni]

Falcon

Can you shorthop dthrow a tire and still have tire for the first hit of Nair?

SH Dthrow tire (hit) -> Nair1 (recatch) -> Tire throw (hit). That would do a good chunk of damage, maybe you could get a grab after the tire hit? That would be awesome!

One thing about tires, though. Actually hitting your opponent with a shorthop tire throw is not that reliable, simple because tires disappear on shields. Falcon's problem with tires would probably be his lack of trapping options, because if you push someone into a tire while they're shielding then you have a slight frame advantage. Falcon just doesn't have the right physics to take advantage of that frame advantage, he lacks a long range standing grab or bite (he does have UpB, but that would be too slow for this instance).

 

[SAX]

@SAX : Falcon dive beats the fart due to grab armor, your argument is invalid.

Too bad that you can fart before falcon dive grabs you. Just sayin. Seen masky do it. You can argue about that with him if youd like.

Moving on, That would be a hecka sick mix up pwneroni! Have you tested it yet? It sounds like they'd be able to shield after the Nair hit though.
So, maybe something like:

SH Dthrow tire (hit) -> Nair1 (recatch and hit) -> bite(since 99% of the time they're gonna shield) -> Glide toss tire forward (hit) -> fsmash(or anything else you can come up with

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Depends on positioning. That aside, Falcon cannot rely on it, since a well-spaced Waft won't get grabbed, and it's a guessing game in Wario's favor as to create the right positioning.

 

[Pwneroni]

Haha SAX that was a Falcon combo xD but for Wario, a tire throw is guaranteed after a Nair1 hits right before you land.

 

[SAX]

Haha SAX that was a Falcon combo xD but for Wario, a tire throw is guaranteed after a Nair1 hits right before you land.

Oh lol my b! Do you think the string i listed is plausible? I'll have to try it it training mode sometime

 

[Pwneroni]

The part in question for that combo would be the transition between the Nair1 hit and Bite. At super low percents, Nair1 can be followed up with a standing grab (I call it the Basketball combo). However, Bite has quite a bit less range and comes out on frame 8 or 9 instead of frame 4. I would say this won't work, but we should test it before we issue such statements

Oh and it's quite obvious that A2ZOMG isn't experienced with tires. That is completely understandable though seeing as how he doesn't main Wario xD EVERY CHARACTER literally has Tire Hit -> some move that is a legit combo. That doesn't indicate that they **** with tires at all. Combos using tires do not mean that character ***** with tires. Wario is good with tires because of his aerial mobility, and the tires mesh really well with his moveset. Tires are a unique projectile in Brawl, thus unexplored by other characters besides Wario. Not a bad thing, but it is quite difficult to theorize on something you have little experience in. Not impossible, but you have to know frame data and **** that isn't very common haha

 

[Kuro~]

The part in question for that combo would be the transition between the Nair1 hit and Bite. At super low percents, Nair1 can be followed up with a standing grab (I call it the Basketball combo). However, Bite has quite a bit less range and comes out on frame 8 or 9 instead of frame 4. I would say this won't work, but we should test it before we issue such statements

Oh and it's quite obvious that A2ZOMG isn't experienced with tires. That is completely understandable though seeing as how he doesn't main Wario xD EVERY CHARACTER literally has Tire Hit -> some move that is a legit combo. That doesn't indicate that they **** with tires at all. Combos using tires do not mean that character ***** with tires. Wario is good with tires because of his aerial mobility, and the tires mesh really well with his moveset. Tires are a unique projectile in Brawl, thus unexplored by other characters besides Wario. Not a bad thing, but it is quite difficult to theorize on something you have little experience in. Not impossible, but you have to know frame data and **** that isn't very common haha

Ya i was thinking it'd be a great low % mixup cuz nair 1 probably wouldnt knock them far enough for bite to miss and since they'll prolly shield it might work ^^

 

[SAX]

The part in question for that combo would be the transition between the Nair1 hit and Bite. At super low percents, Nair1 can be followed up with a standing grab (I call it the Basketball combo). However, Bite has quite a bit less range and comes out on frame 8 or 9 instead of frame 4. I would say this won't work, but we should test it before we issue such statements

Oh and it's quite obvious that A2ZOMG isn't experienced with tires. That is completely understandable though seeing as how he doesn't main Wario xD EVERY CHARACTER literally has Tire Hit -> some move that is a legit combo. That doesn't indicate that they **** with tires at all. Combos using tires do not mean that character ***** with tires. Wario is good with tires because of his aerial mobility, and the tires mesh really well with his moveset. Tires are a unique projectile in Brawl, thus unexplored by other characters besides Wario. Not a bad thing, but it is quite difficult to theorize on something you have little experience in. Not impossible, but you have to know frame data and **** that isn't very common haha

Oh, Nair to bite works, trust me. Lol, me and solo do it all the time. ( I actually stole it from solo xD) it's really good if you pick up that your opponent spot dodges right after your Nair, or if they just hold shield. I also like to spot dodge after a nair -> because some people try to attack after Nair. But nair -> bite is prettu reliable.

 

[Inferno3044]

A2 thinks he knows every character better than everyone else.

 

[Pwneroni]

Wow that is beautiful! So it's not actually a true combo, but it covers so many options so well that it's basically almost guaranteed? Brilliant! Superb! Haha totally awesome, if y'all don't mind could I use that in the AT tire combo thread? :D

 

[SAX]

Wow that is beautiful! So it's not actually a true combo, but it covers so many options so well that it's basically almost guaranteed? Brilliant! Superb! Haha totally awesome, if y'all don't mind could I use that in the AT tire combo thread? :D

Of course! Spread the knowledge. Lol :D

 

[Jebu-95]

How do you play against Marth? <__< I'm horrible at avoiding getting grabbed.

 

[Geerz]

with a secondary. It's literally impossible
If you don't play a secondary, then you need to not get grabbed :s or camp him out, really, really well

 

[-LzR-]

I always thought Marth vs Wario was near even. I seem to have been very wrong lol. Jebu can't haz win.

 

[Jebu-95]

Oh, I suck at camping/timing out too >_> I mostly play aggro and stuff. My secondary, DK, goes more even with Marth than Wario. The thing is, I picked up Wario to cover stupid MU's like Falco and MK for DK. If I would even think about using DK, I would get his worst MU's straight back at my face. This must be done with Wario.

 

[-LzR-]

Just go on and use DK for that MU. It's smarter to use the one who doesn't get ***** obviously.

 

[Inferno3044]

Just go on and use DK for that MU. It's smarter to use the one who doesn't get ***** obviously.

This. One of my very good friends that mains Marth says he loses to DK.

 

[SAX]

How do you play against Marth? <__< I'm horrible at avoiding getting grabbed.

You came to the right place :D
I agree with lzr in saying that its close to even.
55-45 without tires
Even with tires.
I've never had problems with marth. Its all about baiting. And If they are just standing there waiting for you to approach them, thats called: ledge crash your bike and get your tires out lol.
Like if they approach with fairs, Uair ooS it. Air dodge through it to Nair. Just some examples.

About getting grabbed.
The only reason you should get grabbed is if you are being predictable. Like, getting pivot grabbed out of a dair, bad spot dodge habits etc.
Dair is good, but you should only be hitting it out of a bait. Like lets say they always approach with sh fair. So, when you run up to them, you know they're gonna sh fair, so you full hop over them and ff dair. Marth is easy once you get the hang of it

 

[Kuro~]

You came to the right place :D
I agree with lzr in saying that its close to even.
55-45 without tires
Even with tires.
I've never had problems with marth. Its all about baiting. And If they are just standing there waiting for you to approach them, thats called: ledge crash your bike and get your tires out lol.
Like if they approach with fairs, Uair ooS it. Air dodge through it to Nair. Just some examples.

About getting grabbed.
The only reason you should get grabbed is if you are being predictable. Like, getting pivot grabbed out of a dair, bad spot dodge habits etc.
Dair is good, but you should only be hitting it out of a bait. Like lets say they always approach with sh fair. So, when you run up to them, you know they're gonna sh fair, so you full hop over them and ff dair. Marth is easy once you get the hang of it

Dude Sax i've been using wario on wifi ladder ALOT. I'm so proud of my progress

Also, i can vouch for what he says...i agree with literally everything cuz i've experienced it...and seen it

 

[DMG]

Marth vs Wario is at the very least a soft counter. It pushes a bit towards hard counter imo though. 65:35 for example. That MU has only gotten worse with time: back in the day people didn't know you could hit Wario anyways if he grab released onto regular height platforms, or that you could 100% avoid Dthrow traps. Or that certain sitiations that were common to experience were actually frame traps on the character.

 

[Inferno3044]

Just by my basic knowledge of both characters, it doesn't seem good for Wario. It doesn't look like Wario has much to get in besides tires and getting those takes time. How does Wario's aerial mobility help him in this MU? Can he do something like force him to whiff his fair and punish?

 

[Linkvader]

Marth is hard. He outspaces you a whole bunch... If you can get tires out then it helps a whole bunch.

 

[DMG]

Just by my basic knowledge of both characters, it doesn't seem good for Wario. It doesn't look like Wario has much to get in besides tires and getting those takes time. How does Wario's aerial mobility help him in this MU? Can he do something like force him to whiff his fair and punish?

If you are outside Marth Fair range, and he retreats a Fair, you have nothing to punish him with besides DACUS. Which is not a great idea.

If you are near max range and shield a Marth Fair, same thing. However, if Marth does not retreat it or does it sloppy, you can OOS Fart/Fair/Nair and nab him. Even sloppier, and you can Uair him.

 

[Linkvader]

Thanks for info DMG. I now know how to punish that. I just hate that he can retreat it and we can't do much about it.

 

[DMG]

Yeah the only thing you gain on Marth if he does that repeatedly without progressing forward is space. But he never needed much of that to fight against Wario, and we can't really corner him with his strong OOS options.

 

[SAX]

I honestly don't encounter any of the problems you've listed. I guess it's because maybe the marths I face aren't a high level? Idk. I'm going to hrnuts place today. I'll face his marth since he is way smarter than me and I'll see if I have a second opinion.

 

[Linkvader]

I wish I had a good marth to play against... Oh well, tell us how your games went.

 

[DMG]

I honestly don't encounter any of the problems you've listed. I guess it's because maybe the marths I face aren't a high level? Idk. I'm going to hrnuts place today. I'll face his marth since he is way smarter than me and I'll see if I have a second opinion.

I've had the (dis)pleasure of playing against Mikehaze enough to know that the MU isn't that fun. He and Havok when they played patiently were incredibly tough.