Wario MU discussion: Diddy Kong

[tedeth]

lol Tibs Wario boards don't listen to meeeeeeee.

 

[B.Mack]

Not the same infinite, this one was just found like last week dude.

lol, this wasnt found last week. A Japanese ZSS and diddy both did it on each other in a tourney in November.

EDIT: the only reason why this one was branded with a different name or whatever is bcos this is just the same thing but with an airdodge instead of autocancelled dair to catch the banana afterwards, but only diddy afaik can do it with an autocanceled dair anyway, other character were already using airdodge I think.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol Tibs Wario boards don't listen to meeeeeeee.

I'd listen.

 

[Juno McGrath]

lol, this wasnt found last week. A Japanese ZSS and diddy both did it on each other in a tourney in November.

EDIT: the only reason why this one was branded with a different name or whatever is bcos this is just the same thing but with an airdodge instead of autocancelled dair to catch the banana afterwards, but only diddy afaik can do it with an autocanceled dair anyway, other character were already using airdodge I think.

No... First of... you are actually 100 percent incorrect.

Lol. That infinite that sweetpea used involved an auto-canceled dair
This new, Easier Infinite was found by ADHD who posted the thread about it like, two weeks ago?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=292688

 

[volume]

banana to fart anyone? =O also wario controls bananas better then diddy can do to being in air more often also meaning easy catching easy platforming and when diddy has a banana on the platform its an easy pick up for wario. also dthrow to banana to fsmash or you could eat some of no.... almost all of his attacks its a bad mu for diddy i would say 55-45 maybe 60-40 the bike also helps alot in this mu and gimping him is lulz. only time to be scared is when he has 2 naner's and he is phsycho aggro (throwing them at you one by one so many times its like a machine). oh and eating the banana when they throw from afar helps alot to. so now im thinking it is 60-40.

 

[B.Mack]

Strangely enough, Wario can't bite a LOT of Diddy moves if they are spaced properly... Ftilr, fair, dtilt, utilt(on the right side), and even dsmash I think... They all go through the bite if spaced well... And don't even get me started on that diddy flip kick, broken *** priority on that move. Also, Wario absolutely cannot handle bananas better than diddy. He may do it better than most characters, but not better than diddy, lol.

Snap: what you said about this new, easier infinite with an airdodge instead of autocancelled dair is EXACTLY what I said! Lol, I don't know why people never read my damn posts before telling me I'm "incorrect".
The point I was making is that this infinite now is just a modification to the old one, so isn't a totally new discovery like you said. I made a post in the diddy boards about 3-4 weeks ago and I linked all the infinite vids including the Japanese tournament and after posting in the thread, ADHD said he was going to try and start working on it. That was before he modified the infinite to make it easier, not that he discovered a totally new infinite.

 

[Krystedez]

They can't.

Seriously do you even bother thinking about what you write down :X

Are you guys both serious? Quit posting, the both of you D:

They can. And can't. Okay, confusing post time.

Bananas can bounce up after hitting the bike and regardless of whether you're doing a wheelie or not, as long you keep moving forward the banana will bounce up and hit Wario off his bike because it hits the front part of the bike moves up, and hits his body. The hitbox is active the entire time, and it just rises up under Wario's nose and literally gives him a whiff and knocks him out (lol I crack myself up)

Jesus.

They all go through the bite if spaced well... And don't even get me started on that diddy flip kick, broken *** priority on that move. Also, Wario absolutely cannot handle bananas better than diddy. He may do it better than most characters, but not better than diddy, lol.

You already know how I feel about that second point, don't you Baron Mc Mack Attack?

The best part about ing this matchup is that I know what I'm talking about (haha just kidding around guys don't get upset) >.>

 

[B.Mack]

Kryst, u think Wario handles better than diddy? Wow...
Anyways, nanas aren't tires, they don't hit twice in one throw.

 

[Krystedez]

Wario has a lot more potential to "****" with the bananas than not only every other character in the game, but also the character who even pulls them out. I'm basically repeating myself here, so I'll just leave it that I guess...

Also, note, I never eat Diddy's bananas, I always use them as efficiently as I use the tires, placing them as traps, and they excel my glide-toss game much further than the tires because bananas instant trip, and are not DIable.

Repost.

Also, bananas are an active hitbox the entire time they are thrown, they hit the bike and then Wario's face. Try it.

 

[leatherhead93]

I actually have alot of problems with this matchup. Do we need to play campy or aggro?

Diddy is hard to approuch when he is under a platform :/

 

[Waymas]

can u show us a video or sumtin? i suggest defensive but you might have to mix both diddy and his stage control kan be hard just pay attention to the nanas remember his aerials move are laggy that means try to uthrow and of course abuse his nanas and tires .

Oh and remember to di the fsmash

 

[Dynomite]

Spacing agro. I read their boards and some people say that a defensive wario isnt the wario you should worry about." they hate you being in their face.

basically, be in their face. space correctly. dont get camped or wait for them to get their naners set up.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I wouldn't trust anything said on the Diddy boards. The top players keep stuff away from other players.

 

[Dynomite]

I wouldn't trust anything said on the Diddy boards. The top players keep stuff away from other players.

Actually, this is rather true.

 

[SAX]

Spacing agro. I read their boards and some people say that a defensive wario isnt the wario you should worry about." they hate you being in their face.

basically, be in their face. space correctly. dont get camped or wait for them to get their naners set up.

I second this statement. I used to play the mu campy, but recently since seeing this post I played the mu more aggresively and had more consistant success than I usually do. I would just lose if I mis spaced a move at high percent.

 

[B.Mack]

its true on pretty much every character board here. why would you divulge your secrets if that would mean
1: other players become as good or better than you.
2: opponents will know how to predict your playstyle.

very few pros actually share their secrets. its a bit better in the BBR, but still pretty much the same miserly bull**** from everyone.

 

[Zigsta]

Not all pros divulge stuff--it's true that oftentimes they won't spill the beans on SWF, but more pros than you think will help you on on AIM, Skype, etc.

Right, Gnes?

 

[Pwneroni]

its true on pretty much every character board here. why would you divulge your secrets if that would mean
1: other players become as good or better than you.
2: opponents will know how to predict your playstyle.

very few pros actually share their secrets. its a bit better in the BBR, but still pretty much the same miserly bull**** from everyone.

Sounds really selfish to me. Who cares if someone gets as good as you? Gah, I will never fully understand a situation that is like that. It's one thing to hide the Doritos in your room so your sister doesn't eat them all, but to hide matchup knowledge and ATs from an entire community for very little gain?

LAAAAAAAAAAMEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I always offer to teach new Wario players everything I know. Honestly, my belief is that it makes the game a lot more fun and awesome for everyone if you share knowledge. Isn't it better to have close intense matches? My goal is to advance the Wario metagame as far as possible, to the best of my abilities. That should be everyone's goal IMO, for the good of the community and beyond!

Shame on the selfish players hiding in their hole. Oh, how much deeper and grander would that hole be, if they had others to help dig deeper. Am I right?

 

[Krystedez]

My goal is to advance the Wario metagame as far as possible, to the best of my abilities. That should be everyone's goal IMO, for the good of the community and beyond!

Shame on the selfish players hiding in their hole. Oh, how much deeper and grander would that hole be, if they had others to help dig deeper. Am I right?

Let's not dig too deep, might make a mountain out of a molehill.

Anyways, I have the same goal when I play, and I wish to play close matches, not easy ones. The only reason I don't share my secrets? Laziness. (cough...cough...Bike Thread...cough...cough)...

And oh, um, totally just too busy and stuff! College, ya' know? Also I'm not a very good teacher T_T

 

[Pwneroni]

Lol I'd rather make a mountain out of an EXPLODING VOLCANO!!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Let's not dig too deep, might make a mountain out of a molehill.

Anyways, I have the same goal when I play, and I wish to play close matches, not easy ones. The only reason I don't share my secrets? Laziness. (cough...cough...Bike Thread...cough...cough)...

And oh, um, totally just too busy and stuff! College, ya' know? Also I'm not a very good teacher T_T

no johns it's winter break.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Dynomite]

OHHHH SNAPP!!!!

Sh*ts about to get REAL!

 

[Zigsta]

OHHHH SNAPP!!!!

Sh*ts about to get OFF TOPIC!

Fixed!

Stick to Diddy Kong, fellas!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I feel that this MU is even (although I do think that it is slightly easier on Diddy). Both characters can live up to very high %s as long as Wario doesn't get grab released to spike and Diddy doesn't get killed early by a fart. Wario is a character that can easily take Diddy's bananas before he gets a chance to use them because of his great aerial mobility. Try to avoid fighting Diddy head to head as almost all his moves have higher priority than yours. Instead, punish him for his mistakes and put him in bad positions by throwing him off-stage.

You should save your fart until you throw Diddy off-stage. If the Diddy uses his monkey flip to recover, use the fart on him. If they uses the barrels, hit him with N-air. Every Wario should learn how to play with items and also learn how to avoid them. This will help you a lot since most of his damage and set ups will come from his bananas. As long as you have the lead, you shouldn't really have trouble since they have to approach you.

49-51 on neutrals and you guys should almost never lose on counter picks.

 

[B.Mack]

but to hide matchup knowledge and ATs from an entire community for very little gain?

$12,000 at MLG begs to differ.

Try to avoid fighting Diddy head to head as almost all his moves have higher priority than yours. Instead, punish him for his mistakes and put him in bad positions by throwing him off-stage.

so... same as almost every other matchup then?

 

[Lord Chair]

Since when did you have a shot at even participating MLG in the first place xD

 

[B.Mack]

Since when did you have a shot at even participating MLG in the first place xD

Pwner and I were never even talking about me in particular. I share my Wario secrets with people via PM or msn. I just dont like posting stuff on here that other characters can see.
We were talking about the pros who are at the forefront of the metagame and keep things to themselves so that they have an advantage over other players of the same character. I'm not a pro, and I dont even do that. Perhaps you should read posts before making silly little snide comments.

 

[Pwneroni]

Sorry Baron Mack, but you're flat mistaken with that post. The point of being a pro Smasher is not hiding techniques. You must assume that the opponent knows every square inch of your character. To be a pro Smasher you have to be adaptable, and able to counter your enemies in a battle of wits, mixups and clutch playing.

You must be better than them.

 

[Krystedez]

no johns it's winter break.

(would insert obligatory john in your VM but no VM... )

But it's coooooolllld~~! T_T

I know more about the bike than you

(inserts obligatory response to call-out in your VM)

---

I think Diddy goes 50-50 with Wario, but that's just from my own experience. Bananas... Mmm...

Also, what is the most problematic stage for wario against diddy, sans FD?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

LoL @ krsytedez

I'm not really sure if there is a problematic stage for Wario vs Diddy. Both characters perform well on neutrals. Wario has some decent CP's stages for diddy. It's not like I go into the MU thinking ah man I have to ban this stage because of what Diddy can do here. It would be more of personal preference ya know ? I don't think any stage instantly changes the MU into diddy's favor is what I mean. If you don't feel comfortable on a certain stage vs diddy you ban it. Other than that I can't really think of a stage where Diddy is like ZOMG overwhelming that plays into his favor.

 

[B.Mack]

Sorry Baron Mack, but you're flat mistaken with that post. The point of being a pro Smasher is not hiding techniques. You must assume that the opponent knows every square inch of your character. To be a pro Smasher you have to be adaptable, and able to counter your enemies in a battle of wits, mixups and clutch playing.

You must be better than them.

never said that. I meant pros who advance their character's metagame and neglect the other members of the community who use that character.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't think any stage is really in Diddy's absolute favor (aside of FD).

SV is probably second best for him, perhaps CS. Neither are really terrible for us though.

 

[Lord Chair]

Uploaded a vid on what to do if Diddy hits you with a nana on your shield, correctly spaced: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX9qzcaKL-g

Yeah I can talk about that for 15 minutes straight, get@me.

OP updated with link too.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Uploaded a vid on what to do if Diddy hits you with a nana on your shield, correctly spaced: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX9qzcaKL-g

Yeah I can talk about that for 15 minutes straight, get@me.

OP updated with link too.

yup cuz this is what I want to do watch a vid of lord chair talking about diddy for 15 minutes. ^_^.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[DMG]

5:5 or 55:45. Advantage not as prominent as I thought. It can be 6:4 if you have extremely good reaction time, but Im talking about on an Espy or Gnes level. That's hard to maintain throughout a set.

Only use 1 jump overall in this matchup. DJing takes away too many options for us. Only do it to follow them in the air or to avoid an aerial approach.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

(sorry if this is kind of sloppy)

Diddy (a good one) will try to keep you away basically the whole fight because he wins at long distance. Diddy is obviously pretty good at camping. The good news is that Diddy can not really aggressively camp Wario since Diddy can't corner Wario, AND Wario can approach Diddy.

If the Diddy is cornering you near the edge, you are doing something wrong. Use the bike trick from a safe distance to escape then fall safely to the ground to re-gain your position (even though I say this, try to hold your ground as long as possible before doing this, it makes life a lot easier since successfully un-cornering yourself with the bike trick is kind of difficult). Platforms make this process easier IMO since they can kind of protect you, but on the other hand Diddy can use the platforms as stepping-stones to reach you after you do the bike trick, where he normally wouldn't be able to reach that high. Diddy still can't really corner Wario on FD though because FD is so long, he can't possibly cover all options. If you don't know how to avoid cornering yourself against non-MK characters, learn.

Approaching Diddy: There are basically 3 different situations. There are obviously a lot of other ones, but it gets too complicated to talk about.

• He has a banana on the floor in front of him, a banana in hand (he is probably shooting peanuts):
  
  This situation is good for Diddy obviously, you will see a lot of Diddys try to do it. It has its holes though.
  
  The banana on the floor kind of blocks off horizontal approaches, that is the whole point of it. But the banana on the floor will eventually disappear on its own. If you want to be extra safe, you can just wait until the banana on the floor disappears (and it charges your fart at the same time). Just make sure not to get hit while you're waiting. If you don't want to wait, you can still force your way through horizontally by attempting to pick up the floor banana with an airdodge, attempting to predict what they're gonna do and just attacking Fiction-style, etc, etc, but by doing this you're playing into Diddy's game and doing exactly what they want you to do by accepting a situation that is in their favor.
  
  If you try to do an approach from above, Diddy can just throw up his held banana at you, interrupting whatever you were doing since the banana has laser priority. You can dodge/catch the banana with an airdodge while above them, but... it's obviously very risky to airdodge into your opponent lol. Even if you're not DIRECTLY above Diddy and you're somewhat off to the side, he can still glide-toss uthrow his banana, which eliminates a lot of your safe ground. You can attempt to bait him to throw his banana at you, which will change the situation and make him destroy his own defensive wall. If you're really good in theory you can try to instant throw it back at him or something.
  
  A diagonal angle approach (like Olimar's weak point) won't really work because of the peanuts. Maybe Wario can bust through the peanuts if you approach with a nair or dair, but you'd have to get the right angle which takes some setup and kind of telegraphs what you're doing. Maybe it'd be legit if there's a platform or something that can help you set up the angle, this requires experimenting, in most cases the peanuts will kind of block you off though.
  
  Basically, in this situation, your main priority should be to eliminate his temporary wall, and not to just angrily rush in.
• Holding a banana
  You can do a lot of different stuff, but basically you have to predict what they're going to do. The risk/reward ratio of various approaches in this situation is a lot more even compared to banana on floor+banana in hand. You can do a lot of silly aerials on their shield if you space them. Bite is also kind of good if they're trying to shield-punish you. If you can manage to bait them into throwing the banana, then that obviously improves the situation.
• Holding nothing
  This is the best situation. You still have to watch out for utilt though, it's extremely fast and goes through Wario's dair. It's not an impenetrable wall like most Diddys think it is though. If you predict their utilt, you can obviously counter with any number of things, which means they can't just spam utilt and not get punished.

Other random things that you should already know:
If you're on the ground and you know Diddy is going to throw a banana at you, and you KNOW you're going to get hit by it, and you don't want to shield and don't want to trip, if you can manage to jump before it hits you, you'll just get hit by the banana while you're in the air, which will not make you trip and it'll just kinda hit you a little.

If you shield the flip kick, you can fsmash/fart it I'm pretty sure.

When they are pulling out a banana, if you're in the right position (you can get in the position if you predict they're gonna pull a banana), you can just instant throw the banana offstage as soon as it comes out. Somewhat harder to do and not get punished as Wario since his throw animations are slow. I'm pretty sure this is faster than biting a banana though. It might take practice to learn to instant throw a banana when it's coming out, your "catch" hitbox is disjointed when you airdodge so take advantage of that.

Obviously for edgeguarding, invincible nair is amazing, both for hitting them out of side-b and up-b. Even if you don't manage to get an invincible nair, nair usually kills them if they're up-bing except that you will take damage, just make sure not to let something stupid happen like getting stagespiked by the explosion or w/e. Fart is also kinda good for edgeguarding

Space correctly in the air so they can't just jump fair you at any point. Conserve your double-jump if you're planning on landing in range of him throwing the banana, so that you can double jump if he throws it to try to catch your landing.

Diddy is kind of like Snake except his Diddy's defense is worse than Snake, so I mainly play against Diddy like he is Snake except you can approach them a lot more when you predict them, unlike with Snake where even if you predict him a lot of his stuff is unpunishable except by cornering him. Oh yeah, Diddy is also kind of easy to corner too, especially if he doesn't even have a banana.

I realized fairly recently how to actually play this matchup

most of what I wrote before is wrong

What about what you posted is wrong?

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

off the top of my head, mostly the part about what to do when they have 2 bananas is wrong

So what would you suggest to do if diddy has 2 nana's ?