Video evidence that crouch cancelling is a bad mechanic

[shapular]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofo6pAK6-Mo

Should Luigi be able to survive Link's down air at 197% just by holding down? That's about 90% past where it usually kills.

(Before someone mentions it I know I hit with the stronger hit the first time, but the weaker hit easily kills at that percent too.)

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's new. I've never seen anybody complain about the 2/3rds knockback reduction effect of being hit in the crouching animation. Usually when somebody has an issue with the design of crouch canceling, they are actually referring to the hitstun canceling effect of ASDIing into the ground below 80 knockback.
I don't see why this should ever be an issue. Crouching requires you to be relatively immobile, ground, and not busy with an attack or other animation. How is it any better than something shielding, which would have allowed him to punish link, not take damage, and not get sent into the atmosphere where link can abuse the bad positioning?
Seems like literally just wanted to ***** about something so you just picked something controversial. Shoulda picked something where you knew what you were talking about.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

M2k has complained and said, CC is very, very strong in this game. I had a falcon CC my down b as mk at 130% on FoD. We were a little bit to the left of the center of the stage, and he only went a few feet off the stage. I mean, I mean. Meh I thought he would die mang

 

[kaizo13]

I can say that i've never had an issue
with CC'ing in Melee, but there's been some questionable instances in PM.

so for me CC'ing is not the problem. it's how it differs in PM.
Doesn't PM read CC'ing diferently than melee? as in just by holding down rather than actually having to crouch?

 

[DrinkingFood]

And like I said, when people like M2K complain about CCing they are referring to ASDI being used to cancel hitstun at low percents, not to the reductive effect of being hit while crouching. Hitting MK while he had the option to crouch quickly was your fault lol

I can say that i've never had an issue
with CC'ing in Melee, but there's been some questionable instances in PM.
so for me CC'ing is not the problem.
Doesn't PM read CC'ing diferently than melee? as in just by holding down rather than actually having to crouch?

it's almost embarassing how scarce knowledge about CCing is

 

[shapular]

That's new. I've never seen anybody complain about the 2/3rds knockback reduction effect of being hit in the crouching animation. Usually when somebody has an issue with the design of crouch canceling, they are actually referring to the hitstun canceling effect of ASDIing into the ground below 80 knockback.
I don't see why this should ever be an issue. Crouching requires you to be relatively immobile, ground, and not busy with an attack or other animation. How is it any better than something shielding, which would have allowed him to punish link, not take damage, and not get sent into the atmosphere where link can abuse the bad positioning?
Seems like literally just wanted to ***** about something so you just picked something controversial. Shoulda picked something where you knew what you were talking about.

I posted this because this literally happened to me while playing today. I don't remember the exact circumstances but I'm pretty sure I got a dair out of a read and either he wouldn't have been able to shield or he wouldn't have reacted in time but just happened to be crouching. Of course the ASDI part is stupid too, that doesn't even need to be addressed.

Hitting MK while he had the option to crouch quickly was your fault lol

Trying to kill someone at 130% is bad! Makes sense.

it's almost embarassing how scarce knowledge about CCing is

It's a gimmicky mechanic that doesn't make intuitive sense. How is anybody supposed to understand it fully?

 

[GP&B]

Of course CC is going to be a bit more prominent in PM. More mid and heavy weight characters are actually viable.

Also, if you expect someone is going to try and CC you, that's what tomahawk grabs/Peach's DSmash are for.

 

[Narpas_sword]

It's a gimmicky mechanic that doesn't make intuitive sense. How is anybody supposed to understand it fully?

It doesnt make sense to you that someone gets knocked back less when theyre crouching?

tell you what.

Stand still.
*pushes you so you fall over*


now crouch.
*pushes you again with the same force*

see why it makes sense?

 

[Lil Puddin]

It doesnt make sense to you that someone gets knocked back less when theyre crouching?

tell you what.

Stand still.
*pushes you so you fall over*


now crouch.
*pushes you again with the same force*

see why it makes sense?

That's only assuming you and him are in a 2D world while performing that test. Hurhur

CC is still a bit too strong in this game. Rather, what can be done revolving around CC.

 

[Narpas_sword]

2d huh?

Seems like somone needs to get pushed again.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Speaking of stupid questions, is there any reason why CC might not work in training mode under 1/4 speed? Is it simply how its programmed? I tried hooking in a controller while the joystick is holding up, so that it constantly crouches. I did this to test some CC stuff under 1/4 speed and it didn't seem like CC was working.

 

[Phaiyte]

Why do people complain so hard about the dumbest stuff lol. Dude, if someone's crouching, grab them. You can't crouch cancel grabs.

Your biggest mistake was performing a kill move outright in neutral. Notoriously in high level play that **** aint ever gonna work. Most Fox players don't even Usmash in neutral. Light to heavy every time. Your better option would've been to start with dair if he was just going to CC at that high percent. The knockback reduction will put him in a position to where you can kill him with bair or something. Play smarter instead of whining about a defensive mechanic that is VERY EASY to work around.

 

[Exodo]

meeh CC is fine, it can be punished tremendously with some characters, EXAMPLE: "Peach" also as Phaiyte said, grabbing is another solution

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

No.. The mk was me and falcon CC my dam down b when he was at 130
Why is even thing

 

[kaizo13]

CC is good for the game. it adds variety to neutral and forces players to think about their approach options. definitely adds depth to the game.

it would be pretty lame if all moves worked at all times

 

[Ganreizu]

CC is good for the game. it adds variety to neutral and forces players to think about their approach options. definitely adds depth to the game.

it would be pretty lame if all moves worked at all times

No one is suggesting CCing be removed entirely, just that it be toned down to not be ridiculous since it's clearly more powerful than it was in melee.

 

[kaizo13]

No one is suggesting CCing be removed entirely, just that it be toned down to not be ridiculous since it's clearly more powerful than it was in melee.

the OP's issue with Luigi surviving Link's dair at 197% works exactly the same in PM and Melee.

 

[Ganreizu]

the OP's issue with Luigi surviving Link's dair at 197% works exactly the same in PM and Melee.

So why not just say that, instead of your original post that says it shouldn't be removed (when none of us had that opinion) because it's a good mechanic? The entire premise of this thread was that luigi couldn't do this in melee because CCing is stronger.

 

[Celestis]

I have had people CC my attacks while still airborne, and a noticeable distance from the ground too. The mechanic is to strong in this game. My friend has learned to abuse it.

 

[Phaiyte]

So why not just say that, instead of your original post that says it shouldn't be removed (when none of us had that opinion) because it's a good mechanic? The entire premise of this thread was that luigi couldn't do this in melee because CCing is stronger.

I could've sworn it was common knowledge that it worked the same in PM as it did in Melee. Literally all it does is reduce knockback by 2/3, and only if you're actually in a crouching state. It's a good thing because it gives heavies a defense mechanic since it is in fact weight-based. It can also **** over a lot of players when they get hit by something that knocks back at a low angle causing them to fast fall and/or dair off the stage on accident or some ****, or get hit by every bit of an attack rather than just 2-3 hits of some multihit dSmash. Skillz

 

[1FD]

So you're saying Luigi is busted?
*Confirmed nerfs for 3.5

 

[Une]

Why do people complain so hard about the dumbest stuff lol. Dude, if someone's crouching, grab them. You can't crouch cancel grabs.

Your biggest mistake was performing a kill move outright in neutral. Notoriously in high level play that **** aint ever gonna work. Most Fox players don't even Usmash in neutral. Light to heavy every time. Your better option would've been to start with dair if he was just going to CC at that high percent. The knockback reduction will put him in a position to where you can kill him with bair or something. Play smarter instead of whining about a defensive mechanic that is VERY EASY to work around.

Yeah whatever dude.

Does my opponent have 70% damage? > RANDOM UPSMASH

 

[Bleck]

every post in this thread is awful

 

[Ripple]

I have had people CC my attacks while still airborne.

no you haven't. youre hitting with a sourspot or staling a move too much.

 

[Deleted member]

i love it when people crouch my sheik dtilt @ 140%+ and i cant crouch some **** at 0. makes me salt irl

 

[Roxas215]

CC is just a horrible mechanic that needs to be taken out. So what if it was in melee. That auto makes it acceptable???

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I don't like the mechanic that much.

 

[Dragoomba]

I hate crouch canceling with a passion. I honestly feel like any mechanic that allows you to be punishable on hit is just bad design. I sort of earned to accept it since I know it's not going anywhere, just figured I'd complain while I could since I saw this thread, lol.

 

[CORY]

if there were no crouch cancelling at all, jabs and other low knockback moves would just kinda poop all over the game. cc itself isn't a bad mechanic, but it does need tweaking, especially since more heavy characters are actually viable now, meaning cc is pretty indirectly buffed.

 

[Broasty]

So you're saying Luigi is busted?
*Confirmed nerfs for 3.5

LAUGH OUT LOUD

Also I like CC, it means your approach options evolve based upon the percent of you and your opponent as opposed to being relatively the same throughout the match.

 

[TreK]

What's weird about CC/ASDI down is that in Melee, as far as I can tell, the viable characters don't seem to care too much about it : Fox and Falco start their combos with a vertical move, which isn't affected by it, Sheik and Marth mostly start combos with grabs, CF can do both, and then there's Peach whose dsmash will make you stop CCing immediately. The only time I see people CC a lot is against the spacies' jabs, and possibly against jiggs.
It seems like despite the mechanic being identical in PM, it affects a larger portion of the viable characters, and to a greater extent than it does in Melee. But that may be because I don't know **** about Melee and/or that we all kinda suck at PM at the moment, eh.

Either way, since we're talking about CC I might as well give my opinion on it. I like the idea of a secondary defense besides the shield, that is more effective, but costly. Crouch cancel is not bad imo. But in practice, ASDI down allows you to access this type of defense AFTER getting hit, between two jabs in example. And I don't like that at all. I feel like such a strong type of defense should only be available in prediction, not reaction. I feel like this makes CQC less of a thing in PM than in Brawl and I kind of miss it. My two cents.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What's weird about CC/ASDI down is that in Melee, as far as I can tell, the viable characters don't seem to care too much about it : Fox and Falco start their combos with a vertical move, which isn't affected by it, Sheik and Marth mostly start combos with grabs, CF can do both, and then there's Peach whose dsmash will make you stop CCing immediately. The only time I see people CC a lot is against the spacies' jabs, and possibly against jiggs.
It seems like despite the mechanic being identical in PM, it affects a larger portion of the viable characters, and to a greater extent than it does in Melee. But that may be because I don't know **** about Melee and/or that we all kinda suck at PM at the moment, eh.

Either way, since we're talking about CC I might as well give my opinion on it. I like the idea of a secondary defense besides the shield, that is more effective, but costly. Crouch cancel is not bad imo. But in practice, ASDI down allows you to access this type of defense AFTER getting hit, between two jabs in example. And I don't like that at all. I feel like such a strong type of defense should only be available in prediction, not reaction. I feel like this makes CQC less of a thing in PM than in Brawl and I kind of miss it. My two cents.

Marth and Sheik are/used to be heavily susceptible to CC. Then the meta developed more and players starting figuring out when it was safe to go in with Marth/Sheik's longer reaching moves and when you had to rely on DD grabs and retreating fairs as marth and Grabs/Needles as sheik, until their percent was high enough for w/e else. The main issue is this hasn't been developed as thoroughly in PM as in Melee. That issue being that it doesn't appear to be prevalent in Melee when the truth is actually that the Melee meta just developed around it.

 

[Phaiyte]

Yeah whatever dude.

Does my opponent have 70% damage? > RANDOM UPSMASH

That doesn't fly so hot against anyone worth any kind of salt. I think you should find opponents that aren't garbage if that's what you actually believe.

 

[Phaiyte]

I hate crouch canceling with a passion. I honestly feel like any mechanic that allows you to be punishable on hit is just bad design. I sort of earned to accept it since I know it's not going anywhere, just figured I'd complain while I could since I saw this thread, lol.

Tager, Potemkin, Zangief, Tizoc, Baiken, Hakumen, Bowser, Yoshi, I can do this all day.

 

[robosteven]

wait so does CCing need tweaking or is it identical to Melee?

because if it's identical to Melee then it's perfect

because Melee

 

[MonkUnit]

It's identical in every way to Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

it's probably not so much that CC needs to be tweaked so much as that the relationship between CC and ASDI should be investigated further. "crouching" being too good is debatable (and probably correct overall) but theres a lot more going on with crouching than people make it out to be.

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-gu...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/

 

[robosteven]

I hadn't even watched the video. I have no problem with crouch cancelling in OP's video, it's the fact that smash attacks or powerful hits that I feel would CLEARLY at least make the other character move doesn't make them go anywhere because of crouching or ASDI or something that involves being on the ground and pointing downwards.

Can't provide a specific example, but I'm pretty sure you guys would know what I'm talking about. CCing in THAT regard feels much stronger than in Melee.

 

[TreK]

Nothing beats saying "so, there's this thing called SDI it allows you to escape multihit moves" to the one guy who taught it to everyone else.
/lives 30mn away from Doraki senpai

 

[Yoki]

I hate crouch canceling with a passion. I honestly feel like any mechanic that allows you to be punishable on hit is just bad design. I sort of earned to accept it since I know it's not going anywhere, just figured I'd complain while I could since I saw this thread, lol.

Crouch canceling is essentially a more offensive alternate shield that doesn't protect you work damage and only works against specific moves at specific percents, but gives you much better frame advantage. You can only crouch cancel in situations where shielding was also an option.

Being punished for hitting someone's crouch with a CC-able move is just like being punished for hitting someone's shield with a move that isn't safe on shield. Maybe CC is too strong, I don't know, but I think it makes much more sense design-wise (and feels much less frustration) when you think of it this way.