Video & Critique Thread

[PEPESPAIN]

Something I saw last day.

We call it "Insta-hole" in spanish:

 

[Jay-kun]

Something I saw last day.

We call it "Insta-hole" in spanish:

wut does the side-b have to do with it?

 

[PEPESPAIN]

No, but it is easier to do after a sideB

 

[Jay-kun]

0:18...the side-b was weird, was that because of the down-b?

 

[Funkermonster]

Sup Pac-Mains, I got some pac-footage to show because Pac-man is one of my mains too!

The first match of this video.

So yea, how is my Pac-man?

How's your Pac-Man? Kinda hard to say. Honestly, I think it'd be a lot easier to criticize the people you were playing against rather than you, yourself. Most of your opponents looked pretty bad, and it looks like you defeated pretty much all of them except for that . My one true critique of importance would be to find better people to play with and get more videos of your losses. I know it can be a little embarassing to watch and upload you being beaten, but its way easier to help a loss more than a win; since it shows your biggest gameplay flaws more easily and your adaptation to your opponents when the battle is heated. A few things though from the Palutena and Villager videos:

• Cut back on the use of Fair approaching. Fair isn't exactly a good approach due to its short range and low damage & knockback. If your opponents were better players themselves, you coulda been punished more consistently.
• Use Dtilt and Ftilt a little more. As well as the Galaxian Starship.
• You make pretty good use of the Bell and The Hydrant, to say the least. Keep it up.

But more importantly, you might wanna find stronger opponents and more videos of you losing, not just winning. I'm assuming this was on For Glory though, right? Most people on For Glory are terrible and you'll rarely come across any good players. If I can make a suggestion, I think SmashLadder.com is a better place to play online than For Glory, you can always check that out an signup if ya want

 

[CostLow]

I'll get this updated soon but in the meantime I just want to let you guys know that I'll be away for about 4 weeks starting Saturday. Please keep posting your videos and I'll add them all when I return. Promise.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

More PACMAN videos:

(New)

 

[Nu~]

More PACMAN videos:

(New)

PEPESPAIN
The HERO we want
The hacker we need

 

[PEPESPAIN]

PEPESPAIN
The HERO we want
The hacker we need

Hahaha!!!! I'm only a Villager / PACMAN main that loves to create some videos, music etc.

I'm creating 2 more PACMAN videos, bonus fruit cancel & reversal side B.

Check my videos , sideB tricks, how will you call the tech from 00:05 to 00:31?

I said "reversal side B" but I don't like that name.... Any Ideas?

 

[Nu~]

Hahaha!!!! I'm only a Villager / PACMAN main that loves to create some videos, music etc.

I'm creating 2 more PACMAN videos, bonus fruit cancel & reversal side B.

Check my videos , sideB tricks, how will you call the tech from 00:05 to 00:31?

I said "reversal side B" but I don't like that name.... Any Ideas?

Pellet Trip Trick?
Wrong Turn?

 

[Firedemon0]

I would say its a U-turn pellet based off the shape it makes, and you turn around.

 

[Nu~]

I would say its a U-turn pellet based off the shape it makes, and you turn around.

Damnit! Just about to say that lol.
Yeah, I agree.

 

[Jay-kun]

@ PEPESPAIN The new video kill glitch is the hydrant through stage glitch. The easier way to do it is to buffer fair then hydrant right after. I don't know exact frame data. But nice kill though!

 

[Ffamran]

Joraffe's Pac-Man vs. FOcast's Shulk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wmp5T_iCRI.

 

[Neutricity]

I recently went to a customs tourney and got some good matches on stream, but the only custom I used for the On-Fire Hydrant because I like it as another kill move. I would like the Lazy Fruit and Freaky Fruit but I think Pac-Man needs as much power as he can get considering that some of my matches went to time. Also when Lazy and Freaky Fruit are caped then its kind of a waste.

I may test more with Distant Power Pellet because I see it good against characters that can't go off stage well. But most of his customs is good in theory but not in practice.

This is from the Custom Tourney I went to last Saturday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEQ50ryZow vs Miles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDgoeGjbsLE vs Fatality

 

[xenocryst]

I just came across this site, and it's already been a valuable resource! I still need to look at the rest of this thread tomorrow, but in the mean time, here's some videos of me trying to not suck. Any tips would be appreciated. I know it's a lot to ask given the number of videos. Check the videos' comments for some highlights.

(the tube of you)/channel/UC5S2kCH6lSoe0MGtQK0FvfA

 

[Jay-kun]

I just came across this site, and it's already been a valuable resource! I still need to look at the rest of this thread tomorrow, but in the mean time, here's some videos of me trying to not suck. Any tips would be appreciated. I know it's a lot to ask given the number of videos. Check the videos' comments for some highlights.

(the tube of you)/channel/UC5S2kCH6lSoe0MGtQK0FvfA

HAPPY FIRST MESSAGE ON THE PACMAN FORUMS!!! WELCOME!! I LIKE YOUR STACHE!!! (IF THAT IS YOU)

 

[fromundaman]

Finally finished my Pacman combo video, hope you guys enjoy:

I am aware that I have 1 extra frame in the intro (And it happens to fall right as a freeze frame portion starts! Arg!), but TBH I didn't want to spend 5 hours rendering the video again for one frame that I can't seem to get rid of.


EDIT:

Also can anyone tell me how to set the title screen as the thumbnail? It only gives me the option to thumbnail random parts of the video.

 

[doyouknowbobby]

I just came across this site, and it's already been a valuable resource! I still need to look at the rest of this thread tomorrow, but in the mean time, here's some videos of me trying to not suck. Any tips would be appreciated. I know it's a lot to ask given the number of videos. Check the videos' comments for some highlights.

(the tube of you)/channel/UC5S2kCH6lSoe0MGtQK0FvfA

I ran into you on FG a couple days ago for some Pac dittoes. The matches were a lot of fun but you were definitely better. Always nice to run into a solid Pac, especially one who steals fruit and holds it.

Welcome to the boards!

 

[xenocryst]

HAPPY FIRST MESSAGE ON THE PACMAN FORUMS!!! WELCOME!! I LIKE YOUR STACHE!!! (IF THAT IS YOU)

Yep, that's me... but I've since shaved it... and now am probably a month out from having it back. I like change. :-})

I ran into you on FG a couple days ago for some Pac dittoes. The matches were a lot of fun but you were definitely better. Always nice to run into a solid Pac, especially one who steals fruit and holds it.

Yeah, I always enjoy playing against fellow Pac-Men. Someone inevitably tries to hoard fruit. lol

EDIT: I posted three more vids today. I'm starting to see which characters I have a lot of trouble with: both Links, Samus, Meta Knight. I have a hard time avoiding the projectiles and MK's tornado of DOOM.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Hey @ fromundaman , can you give me a link to a match where you used the Kirby/Pac Chain Grab? One of the people in my region was curious about it.

Thanks!

 

[BSP]

EDIT: I posted three more vids today. I'm starting to see which characters I have a lot of trouble with: both Links, Samus, Meta Knight. I have a hard time avoiding the projectiles and MK's tornado of DOOM.

Can't say much about the Links, but for Samus, side B her projectiles. All of them are slow enough for you to side B, and your fruits will tank all of them too. She shouldn't be camping you for long.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Finally finished my Pacman combo video, hope you guys enjoy:

I am aware that I have 1 extra frame in the intro (And it happens to fall right as a freeze frame portion starts! Arg!), but TBH I didn't want to spend 5 hours rendering the video again for one frame that I can't seem to get rid of.


EDIT:

Also can anyone tell me how to set the title screen as the thumbnail? It only gives me the option to thumbnail random parts of the video.

4:3 format for youtube really sucks , you should use 16:9...I did it in the past and a lot of ppl told me...and they are right.

There is a button where you can add the thumbnail when you edit you video....

I hope that helps.

 

[BSP]

Abadango vs Brood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bZAGYv6-uM

I wonder why Brood didn't take his third jump.

There's another Pac-Man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKqIa4rQwR4 vs Lucario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpKj31Qde4 vs Luigi

 

[Nu~]

Abadango vs Brood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bZAGYv6-uM

I wonder why Brood didn't take his third jump.

Much too dishonorable

 

[fromundaman]

4:3 format for youtube really sucks , you should use 16:9...I did it in the past and a lot of ppl told me...and they are right.

There is a button where you can add the thumbnail when you edit you video....

I hope that helps.

Thank you very much!

Also where do I find the 16:9 format option? Is that a youtube option or do I need to go straight to my recording device for that (I thought that was already set to 16:9, but could be wrong).

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Thank you very much!

Also where do I find the 16:9 format option? Is that a youtube option or do I need to go straight to my recording device for that (I thought that was already set to 16:9, but could be wrong).

You need to record your replays on 16:9 format with your recording device.

 

[fromundaman]

You need to record your replays on 16:9 format with your recording device.

Okay. Weird, it should have already been set to that.

I'll have to check that again; thanks!
(It helps that my training partner is getting an Elgato soon as well, so next batch of videos should be better quality.)

 

[Jords2Good]

I've got one with villager. I was sure I was gonna loose.

.

 

[BSP]

OK, I finally got those matches vs. Sonic. All of the are vs. @Brawlman1000. Yes, it's online, but it's still pretty bad IMO.

@ Nu~ ; @ fromundaman ; @ anyone who doesn't think Sonic is that bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYIaVplXf08 - First
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQmp8sYyvbc - Second
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vva_NCHtrG8 - Third
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSrGZAhzLw - Fourth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljM1Vlmoe9g - Fifth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZPauXw3rQ - Sixth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyoJS99FGPE - and Seventh

All online.

I know I went for a grab in one match where a Usmash would've probably been game, and I also missed a B reverse key to clutch one win out. Regardless, Brawlman and I played for quite a while and out of at least 15 matches, I won maybe 2 as Pac-Man. The games are close for the most part, and I don't think Brawlman is THAT much better than me, but close isn't good enough. He thinks the MU is 60:40, but I'm still thinking 70:30 because of how much work we have to put in compared to Sonic.

As I've said, I don't know what we can do in this MU to contain Sonic's speed, and most (all...) of his moves on the ground are better than ours. He runs circles around me on the ground, and I can't throw out hitboxes to try to contest him because they all lose to shield and put me in a position to be punished.

If I try to trampoline to control the ground, he can spindash me for 20%, or catch up and put me in a bad situation. Sonic wins the CQC war. If I go for a ledge with the trampoline, I'm safe for a bit, but then I have to deal with getting up from the ledge with my own trampoline right in front of me.

Sonic's jab is faster than Pac-Man's, so he'll win jab wars. He also has the luxury of shielding, letting us hit his shield, and then grabbing us. His Ftilt also beats most of our stuff. You'll notice that when Brawlman would run up to me and shield, I couldn't really do anything about it, and once he mixed that up with spinning, running past me, grabbing...I can't do anything to consistently cover all of that, and anything I try can get punished pretty hard.

If I try to go aerial, I get chased down relentlessly, and Sonic's bair > what we've got when he's in pursuit. He is fast enough to cover our landings no matter what we do. Also, with customs and hammer spindash, even random full hops aren't safe because Sonic can confirm 17% off of hammer's bounce.

Spindash in general has enough mixup potential to not be an easy punish for Pac-Man. I'm told that up B OOS will stop it between him hitting your shield and jumping, but I don't know if that will work against spin charge or if Sonic does not jump. He also not hit our shield and jump over us and....do pretty much whatever and get away with it.

When I do manage to get him to high %, KO'ing him is a nightmare. As you saw, nearly every time I went for a grab, I got punished hard and even lost matches because of it. Btw, Sonic can outrun our grab beam as well, and then promptly run back in to Usmash or Fsmash you...I stopped grabbing at higher %. Of course, he realizes this too and keeps putting up his shield. I would try to beat it or contain his speed with up B, but if I miss, I may die. The longer he lives, rage fuels his Bthrow and can KO us sub 100%. I don't know what to do.

He shields most of my fruits, and I don't think he did it this time, but I know Sonic can outrun the key on the ground. He DID start running through my fire hydrants though. We don't have an answer to his running...

As for my specials:

I could've gone back to default hydrant since On Fire wasn't doing much for me. It KOs earlier when dropped, and that could've been significant.

I didn't want to give up default fruits. I thought Lazy would help, but then you lose a KO option. For freaky, once you get past cherry and strawberry, they don't do that much for you imo and I'd rather have the defaults. Well, they do a bit, but I prefer the defaults.

I went with default trampoline because I didn't see Meteor Trampoline impeding Sonic much, and I didn't want to make my recovery even less flexible. Also, the first bounce being higher gives Sonic more time to punish if I try to use it as a shield buster.

Default Side B of course.

I'll take any advice I can get, but I don't see how we can consistently contain Sonic.

On a different note, fought Tweek one day, online:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bopak1deZ9w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6h1P6OmmRQ

I got bodied by mecha koopa, and I didn't utilize fair enough to beat side B.

Me vs Zage from a while back, online too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XH83vfX68I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcqVSdHE_aI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAob8STWVkg

Pac-Man is my least favorite character to fight, honestly.

 

[Jay-kun]

yeessss

OK, I finally got those matches vs. Sonic. All of the are vs. @Brawlman1000. Yes, it's online, but it's still pretty bad IMO.

@ Nu~ ; @ fromundaman ; @ anyone who doesn't think Sonic is that bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYIaVplXf08 - First
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQmp8sYyvbc - Second
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vva_NCHtrG8 - Third
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSrGZAhzLw - Fourth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljM1Vlmoe9g - Fifth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZPauXw3rQ - Sixth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyoJS99FGPE - and Seventh

All online.

I know I went for a grab in one match where a Usmash would've probably been game, and I also missed a B reverse key to clutch one win out. Regardless, Brawlman and I played for quite a while and out of at least 15 matches, I won maybe 2 as Pac-Man. The games are close for the most part, and I don't think Brawlman is THAT much better than me, but close isn't good enough. He thinks the MU is 60:40, but I'm still thinking 70:30 because of how much work we have to put in compared to Sonic.

As I've said, I don't know what we can do in this MU to contain Sonic's speed, and most (all...) of his moves on the ground are better than ours. He runs circles around me on the ground, and when I'm in the air, I get chased down relentlessly. KO'ing him is a nightmare, and rage fuels his Bthrow very nicely. I don't know what to do.

As for my specials:

I could've gone back to default hydrant since On Fire wasn't doing much for me. It KOs earlier when dropped, and that could've been significant.

I didn't want to give up default fruits. I thought Lazy would help, but then you lose a KO option. For freaky, once you get past cherry and strawberry, they don't do that much for you imo and I'd rather have the defaults. Well, they do a bit, but I prefer the defaults.

I went with default trampoline because I didn't see Meteor Trampoline impeding Sonic much, and I didn't want to make my recovery even less flexible. Also, the first bounce being higher gives Sonic more time to punish if I try to use it as a shield buster.

Default Side B of course.
On a different note, fought Tweek one day, online:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bopak1deZ9w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6h1P6OmmRQ

I got bodied by mecha koopa, and I didn't utilize fair enough to beat side B.

Me vs Zage from a while back, online too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XH83vfX68I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcqVSdHE_aI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAob8STWVkg

Pac-Man is my least favorite character to fight, honestly.

pacman is the best to fight! and close enough is not gud enough but that was a really bad MU. im proud of you sonny (tear)..your... all grown up now... ;-;

 

[Nu~]

OK, I finally got those matches vs. Sonic. All of the are vs. @Brawlman1000. Yes, it's online, but it's still pretty bad IMO.

@ Nu~ ; @ fromundaman ; @ anyone who doesn't think Sonic is that bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYIaVplXf08 - First
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQmp8sYyvbc - Second
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vva_NCHtrG8 - Third
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSrGZAhzLw - Fourth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljM1Vlmoe9g - Fifth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZPauXw3rQ - Sixth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyoJS99FGPE - and Seventh

All online.

I know I went for a grab in one match where a Usmash would've probably been game, and I also missed a B reverse key to clutch one win out. Regardless, Brawlman and I played for quite a while and out of at least 15 matches, I won maybe 2 as Pac-Man. The games are close for the most part, and I don't think Brawlman is THAT much better than me, but close isn't good enough. He thinks the MU is 60:40, but I'm still thinking 70:30 because of how much work we have to put in compared to Sonic.

I remain unconvinced. Still feels like a 40:60 to me. I feel that it's your playstyle that he's countering, and you did a lot of questionable things like throwing out unsafe grabs and smashes when no one was there.

As I've said, I don't know what we can do in this MU to contain Sonic's speed, and most (all...) of his moves on the ground are better than ours. He runs circles around me on the ground, and I can't throw out hitboxes to try to contest him because they all lose to shield and put me in a position to be punished.

His Utilt is definitely not better than ours in any category besides speed. His has a better hitbox in front of him, but ours has a disjoint above us, behind us, and invincibility. Our ftilt is faster, but has less range, and our dtilt is just overall better in everything but speed (by one frame)

All of our tilts end fast enough that you should be able to tranpoline away before the punish. And before you say, "he can punish the landing!" If sonic tries to grab you after your tilt, and you trampoine just as he grabs you, he will be put in a pushback stun that will prevent him from chasing you. I would also suggest using meteor trampoline and bouncing twice to shorten your height. If he tries to attack in the middle of your bounce, curve away from him.

If I try to trampoline to control the ground, he can spindash me for 20%, or catch up and put me in a bad situation. Sonic wins the CQC war. If I go for a ledge with the trampoline, I'm safe for a bit, but then I have to deal with getting up from the ledge with my own trampoline right in front of me.

All of sonic's aerials are either slower, or have less range than ours, so I don't know how you lose in the air unless he uses an aerial spin dash. Our ground game (if we don't include spin dash) is even outside of jab, which he beats us in. Our dtilt outranges all of his tilts, and utilt beats any homing attack or spin dash attempt from the air. I believe that it can stop ground spin dashes as well if you turn your back towards sonic, but I'm not fully sure. I have to test it more throughly. I'm pretty sure it does though, considering its invincibility, but you have to time it well. Better than holding shield.
Have you every thought of using the hydrant first and then planting a trampoline? It will lure him in to run through the hydrant or try to attack it, then the trampoline behind it will bounce him up, giving you time to recover.

Now for retreating to the ledge, you can plant a hydrant on top of your trampoline as a platform. Then you wait for him to come to you over the trampoline, limiting his options. If he waits, you charge.

Sonic's jab is faster than Pac-Man's, so he'll win jab wars. He also has the luxury of shielding, letting us hit his shield, and then grabbing us. His Ftilt also beats most of our stuff. You'll notice that when Brawlman would run up to me and shield, I couldn't really do anything about it, and once he mixed that up with spinning, running past me, grabbing...I can't do anything to consistently cover all of that, and anything I try can get punished pretty hard.

All of those options can be covered by throwing a hydrant down. If he runs up, use down B and then react. Grab gets stuffed by the hydrant, running past gives you an escape and possibly a grounded trampoline, spinning goes through while you jump away or fall off and bair once he is right past the hydrant. Since we have a unique and weird grab, we have to get creative with other options. If he reads the hydrant and goes for an aerial, then mix it up with a backwards utilt or SH bair. If he shields the either, immediately trampoline and escape during his shield drop lag.

If I try to go aerial, I get chased down relentlessly, and Sonic's bair > what we've got when he's in pursuit. He is fast enough to cover our landings no matter what we do. Also, with customs and hammer spindash, even random full hops aren't safe because Sonic can confirm 17% off of hammer's bounce.

Don't go aerial unless sonic is in the air. Our aerials weren't even made for air vs. ground combat (except the retreating fair that dragontamer talked about, but that is unsafe with sonic's speed)
How is he beating you out with bairs when it is literally slower than every aerial we have. You can even bait it, air dodge, and nair him (our air dodge ends earlier than most, but I forgot the specific frame data. We can air dodge into nair as an approach if the opponent doesn't guess right, but it can't be relied on every time obviously.

Don't throw out hops against anyone unless you have an apple to cover your landing. Apple -> hydrant throws off the opponent's timing

Spindash in general has enough mixup potential to not be an easy punish for Pac-Man. I'm told that up B OOS will stop it between him hitting your shield and jumping, but I don't know if that will work against spin charge or if Sonic does not jump. He also not hit our shield and jump over us and....do pretty much whatever and get away with it.

Yes, Up B OOS does when against sonic whenever he touches your shield.
Try using hydrant out of shield if he bairs this and jumps over you. Then you have the high ground and can react to his next move.

When I do manage to get him to high %, KO'ing him is a nightmare. As you saw, nearly every time I went for a grab, I got punished hard and even lost matches because of it. Btw, Sonic can outrun our grab beam as well, and then promptly run back in to Usmash or Fsmash you...I stopped grabbing at higher %. Of course, he realizes this too and keeps putting up his shield. I would try to beat it or contain his speed with up B, but if I miss, I may die. The longer he lives, rage fuels his Bthrow and can KO us sub 100%. I don't know what to do.

Yeah, never try to grab sonic at high percentages unless you have a jab bounced hydrant in front of you.
Outside of getting creative, I can suggest using the other fruit, which I will talk about later.

He shields most of my fruits, and I don't think he did it this time, but I know Sonic can outrun the key on the ground.

Shielding fruit is not exclusive to sonic, so why even bring it up?
We know that we can't camp with fruit, this isn't new (well, for some people it is)

If he is constantly shielding fruit, then you are getting predictable. I didn't see a lot of strawberry and cherry throwing, you could have used that to stop some spin dash approaches, or even set up some z drop combos.

He DID start running through my fire hydrants though. We don't have an answer to his running...

Trampoline behind, in front, or underneath the hydrant is a wonderful thing. Please add it to your gameplay.
Even Boku (highest ranking sonic player on smash ladder) had trouble approaching against it without having to jump and put herself at risk on the way down.

As for my specials:


I could've gone back to default hydrant since On Fire wasn't doing much for me. It KOs earlier when dropped, and that could've been significant.

I didn't want to give up default fruits. I thought Lazy would help, but then you lose a KO option. For freaky, once you get past cherry and strawberry, they don't do that much for you imo and I'd rather have the defaults. Well, they do a bit, but I prefer the defaults.

I went with default trampoline because I didn't see Meteor Trampoline impeding Sonic much, and I didn't want to make my recovery even less flexible. Also, the first bounce being higher gives Sonic more time to punish if I try to use it as a shield buster.

Lazy fruit gets KOs with set ups and ledge traps. A lazy Galaxian sets up into a fully charged smash attack or side B, and orange can lead into a back throw. Every lazy fruit can block the ledge, and lead into a smash attack during the hitstun. A trampoline on the ledge with a lazy bell rising above it spells death if the opponent tries any get up option. An fsmash will catch them if they land on the trampoline and a jump is caught by the bell (which is a kill move in the lazy version). They can only sit there on the ledge, and possibly get stage spiked if we drop a hydrant in them when they are vulnerable on the ledge.

Freaky fruit doesn't just lead into kills, but every fruit has very unique uses that can help in the sonic matchup.

I have a write up about it:

2132 is jut silly

You can set a trampoline, drop a hydrant behind it, then jump and throw a strawberry and laugh as your opponent tries to get past safely.
The strawberry bounces according to the height at which it was thrown. This is amazing stage control. Just remember to always go in as the strawberry is bouncing because you won't gain a lead by just watching the strawberry bounce, this is your opportunity to approach safely. Then you can catch the strawberry and use it for combos...

...OMG, the combos. They are freaking sick.

Strawberry->fair x2-> nair -> dtilt/ftilt
For when the opponent is at low percentages. A whopping 30-32%.

Strawberry ->Usmash/Dsmash/Fsmash (guaranteed at higher percentages 0_o Do I hear, safe kill confirm?!?!)
17-21% but who cares if the opponent is dead lol

Strawberry->fair x2-> hydrant drop-> fall off nair
20% and sets up your hydrant

Cherry is similar since it also has the same "pulling in" effect as the strawberry, but it doesn't pull the opponent in as much. It's much better for space control right in front of you since it bounces so erratically.

However, both can pull the opponent into the meteor trampoline which can have hilarious results. When there is a red trampoline on the stage, no one is safe. I suggest putting a hydrant right next to it to force your opponent to jump over it if they have no projectiles.

Orange is a better falco laser that travels rediculously far, while the galaxian is similar but eats more projectiles like mega man pellets and fire balls allowing for a safe approach against projectiles spammers.

The melon allows for instant hydrant launches via z drop which is insane pressure on the opponent. Constant 15% hydrants being flung at the opponent.

Now the meteor trampoline is very interesting in how safe and quick it is as a spike. The meteor trampoline is an on demand spike that claims the entire area in front of the ledge.

Fire fox? Nope!
Fox illusion? Nah, you good.
Quick attack? Sike!
Zelda/Palutena teleport? Not today!

The list goes on. This one move pretty much eliminates the opponent's ability to snap onto the ledge. This forces them to recover very high which opens then up to fruit and hydrant spam edeguarding. This even opens up new possibilities for complex traps on the ledge.
If your opponent has moves that are dangerous enough that you don't want to try and gimp them with your aerials (dark fists ganon...) then you set up a ledge trap.
Place a red trampoline near the ledge so that it can catch roll get ups(very easy due to the low jump heights of the meteor trampoline)
Then, quickly place a hydrant in front of it and stay on top of it. Make sure you have a freaky apple in your hand.

The positioning should be like this:

red trampoline==hydrant/you==ledge

This covers all options
Roll: opponent is buried by the red trampoline

Jump: opponent is hit by fsmash, dsmash, Bair, or fair.

Nuetral get up or ledge attack: Fire blast or Apple to the face.

If the opponent tries to wait out the trampoline, they still get get caught by a B reverse Apple if they try to roll. If they wait until the hydrant is gone, you can stage spike them with a bair or just dsmash once their invincibility runs out.
Oh, make sure to jump up evey now and then to prevent the hydrant from burning you.

We can even improve our old ledge trap with the meteor trampoline.
We normally use bair hydrant->trampoline to bounce the hydrant up near the ledge to cover every get up option. However, with the meteor trampoline, you can keep bouncing until the trampoline is red. The opponent can't get up while you are bouncing on the trampoline either because they will get forces up the trampoline into the hydrant. Once the trampoline is red, your opponent is forced to wait until the hydrant is gone so that they can jump over the trampoline. This is when you have your melon ready.
Once they jump, the melon will be there to meet their face.

The possibilities are endless guys.
Customs only fixed our flaws (freaky stawberry, cherry, and melon fix killing issues, and the grab flaw is irrelevant since the low tier freaky fruit can hit confirm into grabs) and enhanced our strengths (stronger traps, even better combos with stronger rush down capabilities, and more stuff to screw over opposing rush down)

I'll take any advice I can get, but I don't see how we can consistently contain Sonic.

Develop your trap game a little more and try to remain calm in your matches. I can see that you choked a couple of times, possibly due to the amount of speed you had to deal with. Sonic requires crazy patience for anyone to fight.

 

[BSP]

I remain unconvinced. Still feels like a 40:60 to me. I feel that it's your playstyle that he's countering, and you did a lot of questionable things like throwing out unsafe grabs and smashes when no one was there.

The grabs when he wasn't there are an attempt to read the spindash or run in and beat it. Same thing for the smashes, since they should beat whatever he throws out.

His Utilt is definitely not better than ours in any category besides speed. His has a better hitbox in front of him, but ours has a disjoint above us, behind us, and invincibility. Our ftilt is faster, but has less range, and our dtilt is just overall better in everything but speed (by one frame)

Speed is probably the most important thing. The disjoint of our Utilt above us doesn't help when I'm getting beat in CQC. Our Ftilt is slower than his jab, and as you said, loses to his ftilt in range. You're right on Dtilt, which is still slower than his jab. Point I'm trying to get across is that I'm consistently losing any CQC engagements. And remember, Shield is faster than anything we've got, and Sonic can put it up and then punish our attempt to challenge him.

All of our tilts end fast enough that you should be able to tranpoline away before the punish. And before you say, "he can punish the landing!" If sonic tries to grab you after your tilt, and you trampoine just as he grabs you, he will be put in a pushback stun that will prevent him from chasing you. I would also suggest using meteor trampoline and bouncing twice to shorten your height. If he tries to attack in the middle of your bounce, curve away from him.

I would bank on Sonic being able to grab us before we can trampoline away unless we hit him with jab 1 or 2, and then do it. Shield stun is pretty dang low in this game.

If I use Meteor trampoline, my recovery becomes much less flexible. Yes, I can still mix it up with PP, but if he reads whatever I'm trying to do with it, I'm most likely dead with meteor. Also, with Meteor, the higher initial means more of a punish window for him when I use it on stage.

If I try to get the lower bounces on meteor, assuming I don't get hit, I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic could hit me with a quick homing attack no matter what I do. I just don't see this working.

All of sonic's aerials are either slower, or have less range than ours, so I don't know how you lose in the air unless he uses an aerial spin dash.

Watch the matches and look how he outmaneuvers my aerials and hits me. I can't challenge him at all when he's below me, except with hydrant.

Our ground game (if we don't include spin dash) is even outside of jab, which he beats us in. Our dtilt outranges all of his tilts, and utilt beats any homing attack or spin dash attempt from the air. I believe that it can stop ground spin dashes as well if you turn your back towards sonic, but I'm not fully sure. I have to test it more throughly. I'm pretty sure it does though, considering its invincibility, but you have to time it well. Better than holding shield.

Our ground game is not even. We have to factor in that Sonic can shield all of our tilts and then grab us, but we can't do the same to him. One of them is faster than ours, and if any of them clank, Sonic is in a better position.

Trying to utilt the HA: I don't think we'll be able to react in time to a close range spin dash. For a midrange one, Sonic can mix you up and punish you for going for the Utilt. He can jump early and HA in utilts cooldown, which is low, but enough to be punished. He can jump and dodge it completely. Anything.

I hold shield because if I jump when he releases and is running Hammer, I get hit. Jumping is still the best bet though imo because for everything else: If I roll, I get hit. If I sidestep, I get hit. If I up B and can't get to the ledge, I get hit. If I hydrant, he can release, hit, and launch it before I can get off of it.

Have you every thought of using the hydrant first and then planting a trampoline? It will lure him in to run through the hydrant or try to attack it, then the trampoline behind it will bounce him up, giving you time to recover.

I usually don't have time. I get rushed down 90% of the time. If I do what you said and doing grab a ledge, I'm pretty sure I'm getting homing attacked before I can act. If I do pull the setup off, Sonic will approach me from the air. Yes, we've got an invincible Utilt, but Sonic can mix us up and punish. He can fall in and aerial, do a quick HA to beat one utilt timing, or do the fully delayed HA to mix us up further. I can't cover all of that in time.

Now for retreating to the ledge, you can plant a hydrant on top of your trampoline as a platform. Then you wait for him to come to you over the trampoline, limiting his options. If he waits, you charge.

This assumes that I've placed a trampoline and had time to go put a hydrant on it without Sonic punishing me. I doubt it.

All of those options can be covered by throwing a hydrant down. If he runs up, use down B and then react. Grab gets stuffed by the hydrant, running past gives you an escape and possibly a grounded trampoline, spinning goes through while you jump away or fall off and bair once he is right past the hydrant. Since we have a unique and weird grab, we have to get creative with other options. If he reads the hydrant and goes for an aerial, then mix it up with a backwards utilt or SH bair. If he shields the either, immediately trampoline and escape during his shield drop lag.

No it doesn't. If he sees me put the hydrant, he'll just run up and fair me. If he runs past, yeah I don't get hit immediately, but then Sonic is in the better position, and can be back on me quickly. If I go for the grounded trampoline, he can jump -> spindash me as I retreat.

The mixups you mention: I've tried that, but this is where Sonic shielding, rolling, stopping early, or anything becomes a problem, because if I throw something out and miss, I'm getting punished. If I trampoline away and I don't grab a ledge, I'm getting spindashed.

Don't go aerial unless sonic is in the air. Our aerials weren't even made for air vs. ground combat (except the retreating fair that dragontamer talked about, but that is unsafe with sonic's speed)
How is he beating you out with bairs when it is literally slower than every aerial we have. You can even bait it, air dodge, and nair him (our air dodge ends earlier than most, but I forgot the specific frame data. We can air dodge into nair as an approach if the opponent doesn't guess right, but it can't be relied on every time obviously.

OK, so I shouldn't go aerial. Cross out those in the possible mixup list on the ground. There's enough stuff on the grounded combat above, but I don't think not going aerial is the answer, not that I think we have a real answer.

As for Bair beating my stuff, look at how Brawlman is spacing it and hitting me with it. I can't challenge it. If I AD, I still can't hit him if he spaces correctly, and if this is a landing situation, I've just AD'd into the ground.

Don't throw out hops against anyone unless you have an apple to cover your landing. Apple -> hydrant throws off the opponent's timing

Been over the ground game and I still think he consistently wins.

Yes, Up B OOS does when against sonic whenever he touches your shield.

OK I'll try it and see what happens.

Shielding fruit is not exclusive to sonic, so why even bring it up?

Because when it's coupled with Sonic's speed and grab game, it's a big problem.

We know that we can't camp with fruit, this isn't new (well, for some people it is)

Brawlman doesn't let me camp, even if I try to.

If I go aggro, I run into the classic problems, all amplified by Sonic's speed. As I've said, I still think he has the better ground game and going aerial is pretty risky too, but that's all we've got.

If he is constantly shielding fruit, then you are getting predictable. I didn't see a lot of strawberry and cherry throwing, you could have used that to stop some spin dash approaches, or even set up some z drop combos.

He'll still shield it, or steal it. The z drop combos imply jumping, and going above Sonic is not a good idea.

Trampoline behind, in front, or underneath the hydrant is a wonderful thing. Please add it to your gameplay.

When I get time in between Sonic rushing me down, I will. If I ever trampoline and don't grab a ledge, I'm getting smoked.

[

Even Boku (highest ranking sonic player on smash ladder) had trouble approaching against it without having to jump and put herself at risk on the way down.

When you do get it setup up (probably after getting punished a lot), yes, Sonic can't approach it safely. No one can. However, we're still not in the clear, because he still has plenty of things to mix us up with when he does come in.

Lazy fruit gets KOs with set ups and ledge traps. A lazy Galaxian sets up into a fully charged smash attack or side B, and orange can lead into a back throw. Every lazy fruit can block the ledge, and lead into a smash attack during the hitstun. A trampoline on the ledge with a lazy bell rising above it spells death if the opponent tries any get up option. An fsmash will catch them if they land on the trampoline and a jump is caught by the bell (which is a kill move in the lazy version). They can only sit there on the ledge, and possibly get stage spiked if we drop a hydrant in them when they are vulnerable on the ledge.

Freaky fruit doesn't just lead into kills, but every fruit has very unique uses that can help in the sonic matchup.

Develop your trap game a little more and try to remain calm in your matches. I can see that you choked a couple of times, possibly due to the amount of speed you had to deal with. Sonic requires crazy patience for anyone to fight.

Get some videos of this or something. I won't lie, I didn't delve that much into the freaky or lazy fruits so maybe I am mistaken and missing out big time. I would like to see it working though, because I think it's going to be difficult to pull off with Sonic's speed.

As far as traps, I don't have time to set them up on the stage. On the ledge, I can try them more, but hammer spindash is really good for getting out of ledge jams.

 

[Jay-kun]

Whoa, how much time to you people have? (be like me; short and sweet!)

Ice cream strawberry mochi and
green tea mochi (am licking lips)

 

[BSP]

I tried a match with the Lazy Fruit.

Bman1K (Sonic) vs. BSP (Pac-Man) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKYUoZOFX5s

@:51 demonstrates the problem with our traps: waiting on the ledge...
@3:06 is an example of the Bair spacing I'm talking about. Pac-Man can't challenge that, and that's why I say I get beat in the air consistently.

 

[Nu~]

I tried a match with the Lazy Fruit.

Bman1K (Sonic) vs. BSP (Pac-Man) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKYUoZOFX5s

@:51 demonstrates the problem with our traps: waiting on the ledge...
@3:06 is an example of the Bair spacing I'm talking about. Pac-Man can't challenge that, and that's why I say I get beat in the air consistently.

You can't even clash with it? Have you tried?

And the reason why he can wait on the ledge is because you wasted your tool to stop said issue: the hydrant.

All you had to do was put down a trampoline, use any fruit excluding cherry, and then throw a hydrant down on him if he waits.

I have a video against a yoshi that I used some strawberry and melon set ups on

http://youtu.be/XEzaznUca38
Vs.

Not that relevant to the sonic matchup, but shows just the surface of what freaky fruit can do.

 

[BSP]

His springing headbutt would've probably clanked with the hydrant, avoiding that as well. He may even be able to do a ledge jump and AD before hitting whatever fruit is floating over the ledge.

Aerials don't clash. You mean trade? I doubt it, and if we can, it's not in our favor.

 

[fromundaman]

Well part of your problem may be playing with custom. Those will ccompletely change matchups and sonic haspretty ddecent ones.

 

[Jay-kun]

Well part of your problem may be playing with custom. Those will ccompletely change matchups and sonic haspretty ddecent ones.

Lol the custom tier lists

 

[Jay-kun]

I tried a match with the Lazy Fruit.

Bman1K (Sonic) vs. BSP (Pac-Man) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKYUoZOFX5s

@:51 demonstrates the problem with our traps: waiting on the ledge...
@3:06 is an example of the Bair spacing I'm talking about. Pac-Man can't challenge that, and that's why I say I get beat in the air consistently.

I advise not teching throws near the edge