Victory Outcomes Produced by Ganoncide

[thexsunrosered]

did you guys know that if you ganoncide another ganon it ends in a no contest

>.>


lul ganon never wins

 

[Divilenta]

Excuse me - how is it giving a disadvantage? The game says Ganondorf goes to Sudden Death or loses (rarely victory). Saying he won would be giving him an advantage.

I fail to see how not giving him something he hasn't gotten is a disadvantage...

@Helmet: I respect your opinion.

I still say that I would be fine if after a ganoncide ends a match you go back and do the one-stock tie match. But going off of the results screen allows other characters to use a Ganon recovering with Side-b as an exploit to win the match based on a move that Ganondorf initiated. If that isn't a disadvantage I don't know what is.

 

[-Vocal-]

I still say that I would be fine if after a ganoncide ends a match you go back and do the one-stock tie match. But going off of the results screen allows other characters to use a Ganon recovering with Side-b as an exploit to win the match based on a move that Ganondorf initiated. If that isn't a disadvantage I don't know what is.

Well we're on the same page! Sudden Death is treated as a tie, correct? Well, if it is ever proven with solid evidence that victim victory is a glitch and was not intentionally programmed that way, then I would be in complete support of adding a rule that states all Ganoncides should be treated as a Sudden Death, ergo lead into a 1 stock 3 minutes match. However, until this is proven, any talk that the result is a glitch is simply conjecture.

This said, I personally doubt that victim victory is a glitch; I don't think a glitch would be affected by port priority in the way that Ganoncide is. Just my own $.02

Spoiler

totally stole that 2 cents thing from someone else ^_^

Until that's proven (if it's true), I guess you're just going to have to fight for Port 1 and hope for the best Really sucks that you have a property of this nature on your recovery of all things.

 

[Ganonsburg]

And if the great unbalance in the metagame is uncompetitive? Not to mention, by looking down on something that almost every tournament implements (the SD rule), the SBR is, in itself, uncompetitive by definition. It is opposing the competitive seen.

So if the SBR wants to fix uncompetitive stuff, it can start with itself.

 

[-Vocal-]

And if the great unbalance in the metagame is uncompetitive? Not to mention, by looking down on something that almost every tournament implements (the SD rule), the SBR is, in itself, uncompetitive by definition. It is opposing the competitive seen.

So if the SBR wants to fix uncompetitive stuff, it can start with itself.

This logic is flawed. Majority opinion =/= definition of competitive. This said, there can be different definitions of competitive - the BBR (as far as I can tell) has chosen to follow an originalist definition.

We could always ban Ganondorf if you feel he's that unbalanced Joking, of course, but this type of ruleset aims to remove things that are counterproductive to competitive play.

Also, no one said they look down upon it; I've heard from several that they like the rule. They just can't endorse it because it does not fit the ideal of refraining from balancing the game.

 

[Ganonsburg]

While majority rule does not make something true, when the competitive scene depends on what the majority likes, it's a good idea to listen to the majority.

 

[-Vocal-]

While majority rule does not make something true, when the competitive scene depends on what the majority likes, it's a good idea to listen to the majority.

>.>

That doesn't change what's right. So they can't put it in a ruleset that claims to represent what is right.

>.>

That said, I'm sure several BR members as well as ordinary TOs will continue to use some variation of the rule. Some, but not all.

 

[thexsunrosered]

man, humor ignored

 

[-Vocal-]

man, humor ignored

Lol I noticed, but I just kinda figure that if the Ganonciding Ganon was it port four, the other one might win eventually. Sorry to kill the humor with data lol ^_^

 

[thexsunrosered]

lol no that was actually funny

 

[lordhelmet]

I laughed

 

[Divilenta]

I laughed

^this

I grinned but I was fuming at the time so I didn't bother responding. x)

 

[-Vocal-]

At this point, I would say that you guys should try to build a strong case (somehow) that victim victory is only a glitch, and opt that a rule should be enacted that states that all Ganoncides should lead to a rematch. Even then I don't think you have a very good chance of getting anything changed, but that's probably your best shot.

 

[B!squick]

Oh yea, how could I forget: I've heard several people mention this, and at one point during my testing I thought there may be some validity to it. (It could also possibly explain why victim victory occurs most often to small characters - smaller target = higher chance of proper pixel placement?) However, if this is the case, it is to minute a factor for me to test - when we start talking about things like a pixel's difference in height, we leave the area where I can reliably do anything about it

However, this would still fail to explain why victim victory occurs more often in Port 4 than in Port 1 :/

Yeah, if ONLY the game had a way for you to, say, make your own stages so you could control the height of the Ganoncides...

 

[-Vocal-]

Yeah, if ONLY the game had a way for you to, say, make your own stages so you could control the height of the Ganoncides...

Oh no no no, that's not what I meant at all; I was talking about the different heights at which you could grab someone (like the top of MK, bottom of MK, lower middle of MK, etc.). I don't know anything about this theory you're putting forth. However, if you'd like to make some custom stages and run these tests on them I'm sure that everyone would appreciate it

 

[B!squick]

Oh no no no, that's not what I meant at all; I was talking about the different heights at which you could grab someone (like the top of MK, bottom of MK, lower middle of MK, etc.). I don't know anything about this theory you're putting forth. However, if you'd like to make some custom stages and run these tests on them I'm sure that everyone would appreciate it

I very much doubt where you grab matters. In my matches against TP he'd Murder Choke a foot over my head and Bowser's neck would then just magically teleport into his hand. I think the height of Ganon himself is the key factor.

 

[-Vocal-]

I very much doubt where you grab matters. In my matches against TP he'd Murder Choke a foot over my head and Bowser's neck would then just magically teleport into his hand. I think the height of Ganon himself is the key factor.

You may doubt it, but we can't know for sure until we figure out how the move really works (if that's even possible, rather than just observing its results). Like I said, if you'd be nice enough to make some custom stages and see if running these tests there prove anything, I think everyone would be happy to know if your theory is true or not. Testing three heights would be a good idea - one at towards the top of the screen, one in the middle, and one towards the very bottom.

 

[B!squick]

You may doubt it, but we can't know for sure until we figure out how the move really works (if that's even possible, rather than just observing its results). Like I said, if you'd be nice enough to make some custom stages and see if running these tests there prove anything, I think everyone would be happy to know if your theory is true or not. Testing three heights would be a good idea - one at towards the top of the screen, one in the middle, and one towards the very bottom.

Alright, I need to finish re-unlocking all the characters though. What are all the variables I need to keep track of? Also, what's the true damage amount for SideB? I know the game doesn't show after the decimal.

-Opponent character
-Controller port
-Damage percent/HP (equal before SideB/afterward/opponent lead)
-Sudden Death/Regular gameplay

What else?

 

[-Vocal-]

Alright, I need to finish re-unlocking all the characters though. What are all the variables I need to keep track of? Also, what's the true damage amount for SideB? I know the game doesn't show after the decimal.

-Opponent character
-Controller port
-Damage percent/HP (equal before SideB/afterward/opponent lead)
-Sudden Death/Regular gameplay

What else?

I'm unsure of whether or not the +4% actually comes from SideB; I've wondered if it's somehow related to hoop damage, idk. At any rate, I don't know the damage output of SideB in the air (or if it even has one). You'd probably have to ask someone from the Smash Lab for that kind of information (they know those things, right??).

As far as variables, I believe you have everything covered. Also make sure to only perform forward facing SideBs - no B reversals. (I can't say with certainty that this is a factor, but it is best to avoid it just in case it is.) Other than that, look at the OP for everything I did and just do the same so the results can be compared. And be sure to run the full test for each height - it's important to be able to compare each one seperately.

Oh yea, and you can just use the same characters I did so the results compare, though testing more characters while also testing these four could never be a bad idea.

It makes me happy to see someone taking initiative :D

 

[-Vocal-]

Actually, no, forget what I just said about characters. You really only need to do the test with Meta Knight and Snake - we can just compare the data for those two across the board (I chose them since they had the highest and lowest victory rates respectively). Like I said before, you're always welcome to do more.

Sorry to double post, just wanted to make sure this got noticed ^_^

 

[Noobicidal]

Sorry to double post, just wanted to make sure this got noticed ^_^

If you had the most recent post, I really don't see the point in not editing it.

 

[-Vocal-]

If you had the most recent post, I really don't see the point in not editing it.

He might've already popped in, read it, and not responded, that's all ^_^ I know I've done the same thing - I'll just randomly look back and be like "What in the - when did he write that there!?"

edit: I just noticed this was the 101st reply, this calls for puppies!

 

[B!squick]

Snake and MK are both tall and short character's respectively, so that's fine. And I wasn't planning on being in the air when I did Ganon's SideB anyway. It's possible even that has an effect on the out come, but there's no way to be sure that I'm at the same height each time I do it unless I start Ganon on the ground. Unless you I use TAS, but that's outside my realm of knowledge.

 

[-Vocal-]

Snake and MK are both tall and short character's respectively, so that's fine. And I wasn't planning on being in the air when I did Ganon's SideB anyway. It's possible even that has an effect on the out come, but there's no way to be sure that I'm at the same height each time I do it unless I start Ganon on the ground. Unless you I use TAS, but that's outside my realm of knowledge.

You can Ganoncide starting on the ground? Wouldn't that just do an ordinary choke?

 

[vVv Rapture]

I assume that if you are on the stage and your opponent is in the air, Ganon would continue off the stage, grab the opponent (who is in the air), and Ganoncide, given that Ganon is close enough to the ledge for the attack to reach.

 

[lordhelmet]

You forgot the stage in the factors

 

[-Vocal-]

I assume that if you are on the stage and your opponent is in the air, Ganon would continue off the stage, grab the opponent (who is in the air), and Ganoncide, given that Ganon is close enough to the ledge for the attack to reach.

Just tried it - as soon as Ganon hits the ledge he goes into free fall.

edit@Helmet: but the stage is the factor he's changing; he's making stages of different heights in order to test if height has an effect.

 

[lordhelmet]

o right

 

[B!squick]

You can Ganoncide starting on the ground? Wouldn't that just do an ordinary choke?

Not when there's a gap between Ganon and the opponent.

      o   o
Them- X   X -Ganon
     &&   &&

 

[-Vocal-]

Not when there's a gap between Ganon and the opponent.

      o   o
Them- X   X -Ganon
     &&   &&

Yes, but standing on the ground? I'm aware that you can short hop (or aerial period) Side B and that will take them off the stage (like this), but if Ganondorf is on the ground that won't happen. If both players are pushed up against a ledge the move can drop the opponent over the edge, but they can just grab the ledge. Am I missing something?

 

[B!squick]

Yes, but standing on the ground? I'm aware that you can short hop (or aerial period) Side B and that will take them off the stage (like this), but if Ganondorf is on the ground that won't happen. If both players are pushed up against a ledge the move can drop the opponent over the edge, but they can just grab the ledge. Am I missing something?

Yes. Like, everything, lol.

 

[Exalted]

Yes. Like, everything, lol.

Best pic evar.

 

[-Vocal-]

Yes. Like, everything, lol.

Your paint skills are legendary :D

And thanks for drawing that, I really wasn't understanding

 

[Bahamut777]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_regional_version_differences_(SSBB)

I was looking around this... and it contains a little statement that makes almost everything clear...

Sorry for the bump.

 

[Exalted]

Not really Baha. Winning by Ganoncide is extremely rare even in the PAL version. The Wiki seems to imply that Ganoncide always results in a win for us PAL owners, which is false.

 

[-Vocal-]

Not really Baha. Winning by Ganoncide is extremely rare even in the PAL version. The Wiki seems to imply that Ganoncide always results in a win for us PAL owners, which is false.

It's understandable that you were under this misconception Bahamut, as I was too before I decided to do research. However, as well as testing the NTSC version, I asked a few PAL Ganon mains as to what usually happens and nothing they said would lead to the conclusion that there is any difference between the two.

 

[Dumbfire]

But nobody has any prove yet.
I'll just go test it ou sometime them, or Exalted can do it as he's almost Smash Researcher ;p

 

[-Vocal-]

But nobody has any prove yet.
I'll just go test it ou sometime them, or Exalted can do it as he's almost Smash Researcher ;p

>.>

There's proof that it doesn't give victory 100% of the time, and that was the question being presented. I really would appreciate it if someone with the PAL version did some thorough testing, but Ganon mains don't seem to be very motivated; JayDeth said he was going to do some testing over a month ago (yes I was wondering if it'd ever appear )

 

[Exalted]

>.>

There's proof that it doesn't give victory 100% of the time, and that was the question being presented. I really would appreciate it if someone with the PAL version did some thorough testing, but Ganon mains don't seem to be very motivated; JayDeth said he was going to do some testing over a month ago (yes I was wondering if it'd ever appear )

I did some testing yesterday, but I didn't uncover anything new, besides that I always seemed to go into Sudden Death. I'd do some more testing if I didn't have to go to the airport today.

 

[-Vocal-]

I did some testing yesterday, but I didn't uncover anything new, besides that I always seemed to go into Sudden Death. I'd do some more testing if I didn't have to go to the airport today.

I <3 you

Be sure that you

A) Use the same characters I did
B) Do at least 10 tests for each set of variables
C) Test in both Port 1 and Port 4


This will allow us to compare your results and my results directly