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Vanilla Aura Mechanic vs. Super Meter Mechanic Discussion

Saikyoshi

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I really don't like the changes to Lucario either myself. They ****ed up his hitboxes enormously. I was playing against Mario today (seriously **** his disjointed up special that somehow defies the laws of priority and phase through projectiles that should hit him out of it), and the changes to his hitboxes just royally screw him over. I can't hit with dair off to the sides like I could when I did play Brawl, they reduced the ranged on most of his moves, made them much more narrow, and he now extends hit hurtboxes through some contortionist way on his smashes.
I find him S4 Lucario better than the one in Brawl myself. To me, the nerfs he recieved complement the buffs to the risk versus reward that make up his character.

I would never laugh at how someone plays. I may be intolerant someone's play if what they do either messes up what I'm doing, intentionally do something stupid that wastes my time, or put my character at the risk of something like friendly fire. I'm glad you'll give him a shot. I hope you find what he does is fun, and remember that you can ask others on how best to utilize him on this board.
Have I mentioned that you're the only person in this thread that I don't feel like bludgeoning with a curling iron right now? It's nice to talk about what I felt was a legitimate grievance with someone rational. Everyone else seems to think I'm a baby who should go back to playing his baby game.
 
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Zoa

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I find him S4 Lucario better than the one in Brawl myself. To me, the nerfs he recieved complement the buffs to the risk versus reward that make up his character.


Have I mentioned that you're the only person in this thread that I don't feel like bludgeoning with a curling iron right now? It's nice to talk about what I felt was a legitimate grievance with someone rational. Everyone else seems to think I'm a baby who should go back to playing his baby game.
I personally am not fond of the hitbox changes and alterations to his fair. The fair change alone was a super nerf, but the hitbox changes across his entire move set makes him so much less safe. I really don't care for the Superman recovery or better Force Palm blast to compensate. Especially when the grab requires absolute point blank reach to even grab now. The graphics for his moves also confuse me about their range. They only hit about halfway through of what they show.

I'm not really fond of that line of thinking. With this new "Go play Melee or PM you elitist." attitude that a bunch of people are using, I feel it's only going to be used much more as time goes on with any game in the series. Intolerance breeds intolerance. Ignorance breeds ignorance. I find it absolutely pathetic. I try to get others to understand by asking their grievances and offer another line of thought for them to dwell on. It helps change their stances in a more rational manner instead of causing an argument or whatever else.
 

Shell

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We felt that many of Lucario's Brawl animations looked somewhat lacking in force, with generally slow moving, meditative or mystical motions rather than the satisfying strikes one might expect of a steel fighting type. At the same time that we were trying to make some of his animations looks "snappier" we were also playing with the concept of a magic-system of cancels that might bring in players from traditional fighting games. These two concepts met and as a result some of his attack animations were replaced with motions that payed homage to traditional fighting games, such as Street Fighter. This was admittedly a big stretch in interpreting his lore & style within Smash Bros, and I can understand that someone would get a little bit frustrated with the liberties taken. By now in PM's life, though, there are at least as many players that appreciate the interpretation as those that don't care for it, so we will stay true to preferences of current PM Lucario players on this subjective matter.

As for the Brawl Aura system, though, we had objective reasons for removing it. As others have stated, despite the rather curious popularity of comeback powers in current fighting games (X Factor, Ultras, S4's Rage & Aura) we don't have any desire to incorporate such a feature into our mod. It's unfortunate that the core aspect of Lucario that you're drawn to most is a patently uncompetitive design feature. You can continue to discuss things here, if you wish, but the dev team is pretty firm about not backpeddling on his Aura system. We've chosen a system that rewards Lucario for successfully engaging the opponent rather than rewarding him for getting hit. If you want the latter check out Smash 4.
 

Zoa

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Oh man. Didn't expect Shell to post. Thanks for that info.
 

Saikyoshi

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We felt that many of Lucario's Brawl animations looked somewhat lacking in force, with generally slow moving, meditative or mystical motions rather than the satisfying strikes one might expect of a steel fighting type. At the same time that we were trying to make some of his animations looks "snappier" we were also playing with the concept of a magic-system of cancels that might bring in players from traditional fighting games. These two concepts met and as a result some of his attack animations were replaced with motions that payed homage to traditional fighting games, such as Street Fighter. This was admittedly a big stretch in interpreting his lore & style within Smash Bros, and I can understand that someone would get a little bit frustrated with the liberties taken. By now in PM's life, though, there are at least as many players that appreciate the interpretation as those that don't care for it, so we will stay true to preferences of current PM Lucario players on this subjective matter.

As for the Brawl Aura system, though, we had objective reasons for removing it. As others have stated, despite the rather curious popularity of comeback powers in current fighting games (X Factor, Ultras, S4's Rage & Aura) we don't have any desire to incorporate such a feature into our mod. It's unfortunate that the core aspect of Lucario that you're drawn to most is a patently uncompetitive design feature. You can continue to discuss things here, if you wish, but the dev team is pretty firm about not backpeddling on his Aura system. We've chosen a system that rewards Lucario for successfully engaging the opponent rather than rewarding him for getting hit. If you want the latter check out Smash 4.
I just personally feel that it's disrespectful to the character. Whether you feel it's competitive or not, although I'm firm in my belief that it has potential in part due to the stated precedents, it's what makes Lucario who he is. If you take it away, it's no longer Lucario.

I know it's not going to change, but that's just my opinion on the matter.

I do at least understand the reasoning, however, so instead of arguing further, I've accepted a headcanon that this is merely a different Lucario. Why? As he doesn't feel like the one I'm used to, picturing him as an entirely new character changes things and makes him more tolerable. It's lucky that Lucario, being a species, is a character I can safely do that with. But I cannot accept him as being the same one.
 
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Zoa

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Hey, Shell. Just curious, but can we expect the wall cling mechanic to eventually return? I know it got nerfed for all the characters who can wall cling to once per air time, but Luc hasn't had it since 2.6 I think it was. Could we get it back out of DJ only?
 

MegaMissingno

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I just personally feel that it's disrespectful to the character. Whether you feel it's competitive or not, although I'm firm in my belief that it has potential in part due to the stated precedents, it's what makes Lucario who he is. If you take it away, it's no longer Lucario.
Reposting what I said before since you seem to have glossed over it:
And Aura is? That doesn't exist in Pokemon either. Both mechanics were invented out of whole cloth.
 
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StarshipGroove

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These two concepts met and as a result some of his attack animations were replaced with motions that payed homage to traditional fighting games, such as Street Fighter. This was admittedly a big stretch in interpreting his lore & style within Smash Bros, and I can understand that someone would get a little bit frustrated with the liberties taken. By now in PM's life, though, there are at least as many players that appreciate the interpretation as those that don't care for it, so we will stay true to preferences of current PM Lucario players on this subjective matter.
It's actually not a big stretch; have you watched the trailer for Pokken Fighters?


Project M's Lucario fights and moves like the Lucario that appears in Pokken, down to having the magic series ability, supers and fist-in-your-face style instead of Brawl Lucario's slow, meditative techniques. They might as well be the same character.
So Pokken retroactively justifies Lucario paying homage to fighting games!
 
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Mean Green

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Nope, don't like the video not one bit. Lucario has paws not hands, so he's not supposed to be punching! That's not Lucario! /s
 

TTTTTsd

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Fun fact. Captain Falcon never punched a god damn thing before Smash 64. He shot his gun.

Look I think Lucario is silly and weird too but he has an established playerbase and he's one character in a sea of 48 including himself, and while I think he's unorthodox and weird to play, he's been like this for about 2 years now with a bunch of meta behind him and skewing that all for arbitrary stuff would be silly to me. I don't hate how he is right now, I think it's WEIRD but I don't hate it.

I'm inclined to say it should be kept because it has proven to have staying power.

P.S. I've come to the conclusion that I'll never like Lucario ever but here he's not as silly as he is in Smash 4 so it's not as bad.
 
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Risky

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I just personally feel that it's disrespectful to the character. Whether you feel it's competitive or not, although I'm firm in my belief that it has potential in part due to the stated precedents, it's what makes Lucario who he is. If you take it away, it's no longer Lucario.
It's what makes the Lucario you enjoy playing in Smash what he is. If you keep getting hit, you deserve to lose in Smash. No exceptions. Since you play with the idea that "% is a reward for all my hard effort of getting hit," you're saltier than a bag of Munchos when you play P:M.
 

Qazzquimby

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Sorry I'm late to the thread.
I'm fine with PM Lucario, and recognize the problem with power raising with damage taken, but I also think the risk/reward aspect Saikyoshi keeps mentioning would be interesting if better implemented.

What if one of Lucario's Taunts quickly gave him maybe 25 damage, and a small but reasonable boost to damage? No one is being rewarded for getting hit, and the high percent -> high power system is maintained to a degree.

Also, I haven't played smash4, but it sounds like the reward should not be to nearly that magnitude.
 

NightRaid|tAmA?

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I think just removing the cancel-on-hit thing would be all that Lucario needs tbh. I love his Side B that acts as a throw down (it looks so badass and smooth. aerial Force Palm at its finest), and the NAir is a nice tribute to the tatsumaki (however, his Brawl/Smash 4 NAir look more natural). People just saw Lucario's Aura Sphere (which is called Hadoudan in Japan) and saw it as a Hadouken and went "Hey, to make Lucario more unique, give him Street Fighter moves!"

I can't say it breaks the game, he looks so awesome when he goes in, but yeah. It's not exactly "Smash" persay.
why remove the one-hit-cancel. Lucario has a terrible neutral and a technically demanding combo game. Without the one-hit combos Lucario's place as Mid-tier would become trash tier. He would be useless
 

Zoa

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To be quite frank, I honestly believe Luc's neutral hasn't been explored well at all. I've been experimenting some with AB, and the applications for this thing as a stage control option can go a long way in some MU.

Edit:

@ Mean Green Mean Green

Did you know Lucario actually have bendable fingers? In the anime as Ash/Dawn (can't remember who) fights Maylene's Lucario, both of them form a pose in unison while outstretching a hand/paw. This Lucario actually separates the digits of his outstretched paw and bends them. They actually have opposable digits.
 
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Saikyoshi

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To be quite frank, I honestly believe Luc's neutral hasn't been explored well at all. I've been experimenting some with AB, and the applications for this thing as a stage control option can go a long way in some MU.

Edit:

@ Mean Green Mean Green

Did you know Lucario actually have bendable fingers? In the anime as Ash/Dawn (can't remember who) fights Maylene's Lucario, both of them form a pose in unison while outstretching a hand/paw. This Lucario actually separates the digits of his outstretched paw and bends them. They actually have opposable digits.
Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Even though I still look at resources detailing the anime for canon details that the games fail to provide, I stopped watching it a while ago. So I honestly didn't know.

(I didn't accept the "they learn punch moves in the games" thing mentioned earlier at face value because Alakazam can learn Iron Tail despite not having a tail, etc. It somehow works in a static image-based RPG, but it wouldn't translate into animation. So I was a bit skeptical since I didn't know how Lucario's hands worked.)
 

AceGamer

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I'm personally a fan of PM Lucario but I can see where people are coming from with his play style not being true to his character. I'd like to point out though that that pokemon are species not characters, one lucario could be Tai Chi style, while another could be aggressive Street fighter style. Plus Lucario isn't the first pokemon to not be true to his character in a way, look at the Dragonite in the unova series that Iris gets, that has to be the furthest thing from Dragonite's character I have ever seen XD lol. Dragonite is supposed to be some gentle giant, not a Moody, rude, badass X)
 
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Crulex Crystallite

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For the longest time:

Ganon a falcon clone forever until recently altered in 3.5 to be more unique
Bowser's size changes canonically from game to game, huge in mario games and tiny in mario kart 64
Ness didn't know PK fire or thunder in Earthbound, Flash didn't explode
Jigglypuff's Rest isn't a kill move in pokemon

I would take how Lucario is with a grain of salt. I'd be MORE happy that he's unique in PM with his on cancel mechanic and different in other games.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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The Aura mechanic is insulting to Lucario. That's not how he plays at all, in the anime or in the games. Lucario's never been anything but an offensive face-buster since inception, Brawl royally f***ed up with that canonicity.
 

Thor

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The Aura mechanic is insulting to Lucario. That's not how he plays at all, in the anime or in the games. Lucario's never been anything but an offensive face-buster since inception, Brawl royally f***ed up with that canonicity.
Since Brawl is from Nintendo, isn't it basically canon anyway?

I think the justification would be this: Lucario can see and manipulate aura [aura sphere is an attack that I believe is supposed to be him channeling aura], and when in danger, we're supposed to think he is more willing to manipulate the life force of others to protect himself - hence a larger aura sphere, more damage from aura attacks, etc.

Not saying you have to like it or find it credible, but it's something [an explanation] I'd at least accept.

As for the Brawl Aura system, though, we had objective reasons for removing it.
WHY THE HECK DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT "OBJECTIVE" MEANS!? There is NO SUCH THING as an "objective reason for doing something" because every single action taken by the PM devs means that they THINK it would improve the game or be "better", and better is ALWAYS an opinion.

NOTHING pisses me off on these boards more than people who think there is such a thing as an "objective" reason for anything, because you can cite all the facts you want, they don't make something better or worse UNLESS you have a normative (and norms are always subjective) statement to connect to your fact to justify something [incidentally, this is the reason it is literally impossible for Melee to be objectively better than Brawl, but if you want to debate that with me, take it to the debate hall - I'll destroy you so hard it'll be funny to everyone not you, since you've lost out of the gate when you can't use proper English].

If the dev in question (Shell) or other PM devs (or whatever we call them now) wants to dispute this, by all means, cite reasons and tell me why they are objective - I'll call out every. single. one. and cite EXACTLY why it's subjective, probably with an enthymeme of your logic to make it crystal clear. Two of them in your post: Stating "comeback mechanics are bad for competition" is subjective [and the reason cited] because they assume that the player losing should not be given advantages to help them get back in the game - that is an opinion, not a fact, like it or not, and many would argue otherwise. Calling something "patently uncompetitive" is simply inaccurate - it changes the rules of the competition, but you can definitely still figure out the best player, be it that they're better at the core of what we consider Smash now or better at abusing comeback mechanics (since both sides can choose to do this). I can go get Sirlin's "Playing to win" stuff and explain it further, but I don't feel like it since it's late and I need sleep.

*deep breath*

ALL OF THAT SAID, I don't care either way - I kinda like Lucario as he is, the steel-fighting machine that deals hit that stack up (and hits like a truck if you let him - hence steel, heh), and I enjoy Smash 4 and Brawl Lucario (though I'm much worse at both of those). I think this Lucario isn't that unfaithful to how awesome people think he is in Pokémon (going in and whatnot) but it doesn't look like Brawl or Smash 4 so someone who likes those may be sorely disappointed.

I also think there is deep skill involved in using Lucario's aura mechanic well and in exploiting him to avoid letting him use the mechanic well, and I will explain this if someone wants to dispute this too, but most people seem too close-minded to understand this concept. So while I will discuss my deep deep disgust with the misuse of the word "objective" I won't bring up why the aura system is highly skill-based and forces deep thinking on both ends [at least it would be in PM] unless someone actually cares to hear and listen (or read and understand I guess).
 
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Zoa

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Which aura mechanic are you referring to in the last paragraph? @ Thor Thor
 
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PsionicSabreur

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Rant about blatant misuse of the word "objective"
He's probably just referring to the changes being impartial in relation to the rest of the PM cast. That is, when they examined Lucario they made the decision to remove mechanics based on the ground rules previously set out for the project as a whole and not because everyone collectively said "**** Lucario."
It might not be proper usage in debate terms but surely you can be understanding of the connotation (which will not always be in perfect context, we're on an internet forum) instead of taking it in the worst possible manner and in general being a bit of an ass about it.
 
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Thor

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Which aura mechanic are you referring to in the last paragraph? @ Thor Thor
Originally the removed one (since you can decide how much you need percent vs can you get in enough as is [since if you dominate neutral, no need to risk getting hit...] vs is it worth it to try to combo DI out and recover since gimping exists vs your opponent only looking for low percent gimps or going ham and looking to finish with a knee or usmash or whatever... I could detail situations far more than this, believe me, and I find the different idea trains fascinating], but both take skill to use so it applies to both I guess (though aura from Brawl causes at least as much player interaction and thinking on both sides, whereas the current charge system is generally only causing the consideration "How many more options do they have?" and therefore I generally think induces less interaction... since if his hands aren't glowing, you know his options are limited.)

He's probably just referring to the changes being impartial in relation to the rest of the PM cast. That is, when they examined Lucario they made the decision to remove mechanics based on the ground rules previously set out for the project as a whole and not because everyone collectively said "**** Lucario."
It might not be proper usage in debate terms but surely you can be understanding of the connotation (which will not always be in perfect context, we're on an internet forum) instead of taking it in the worst possible manner and in general being a bit of an *** about it.
Amusingly [on my end but no one else's], I'm not really as mad about it as I wrote, and I don't disagree with the changes either [though I liked aura for a variety of reasons, the new system actually pleases me for some of those reasons and new ones, though loses some old reasons], just the vocabulary used to clearly convey the attitude "We're right and you're wrong and there's no debate whatsoever to be had, and if you think there is, you're an idiot." I'm in favor of being cautious whern one could use a far less specific word to convey a general choice that is consistent (so stating "good" or "unanimous reasons consistent with design philosophy" wouldn't have caused any reaction from me - though I may have disputed design philosophy, arguably a significantly more important discussion that word choice).

I do appreciate your cool-headed response though. Rare when I call someone out for inaccurately using a word far too often misused.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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Since Brawl is from Nintendo, isn't it basically canon anyway?

I think the justification would be this: Lucario can see and manipulate aura [aura sphere is an attack that I believe is supposed to be him channeling aura], and when in danger, we're supposed to think he is more willing to manipulate the life force of others to protect himself - hence a larger aura sphere, more damage from aura attacks, etc.

Not saying you have to like it or find it credible, but it's something [an explanation] I'd at least accept.
Fair enough explanation for the mechanics. Still squicks me out though. I see PM Lukes go absolutely nutso on touching their opponent and think to myself "Yes, this is what a +2 Close Combat from a Lucario would feel like. BURN." Looks so good and faithful.
 

Thor

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Fair enough explanation for the mechanics. Still squicks me out though. I see PM Lukes go absolutely nutso on touching their opponent and think to myself "Yes, this is what a +2 Close Combat from a Lucario would feel like. BURN." Looks so good and faithful.
Unfortunately, someone good enough at rotating the analog stick and hitting the c-stick rapidly can get out of it - I've played a player who knew Lucario well with strong SDI and comboing turns from strings you've practiced (ex: jab -> ftilt -> fsmash -> double team -> dash attack -> side+b) into stuff you're praying will hit (ex: jab -> reverse side+b (or could try utilt or reverse ftilt I guess...) -> dash attack -> reverse usmash -> side+B [have to quickly pick a direction] if you're lucky...).

I like Lucario as he is, but he ultimately asks for this trade-off: Mediocre neutral game and huge risk of crouch-cancelling if you can't land those sweetspot dtilts quickly/approach with usmash or side+b, and if your opponent can SDI well you literally have to read SDI as you combo (and that's hard), in exchange for incredible combo potential. This is why I generally only pick him in specific situations (mostly, when someone picks a small stage, my Link might feel a bit cramped, but I have to do less work approaching since they have few places to run - this also works best against characters without amazing CC games, for example Ganondorf or perhaps DK I think lack quick CC options as long as I keep the combos going).

That said, when I do go in and get the SDI reads (or they don't SDI), taking someone from zero to 60% offstage and landing the aura bomb is oh so satisfying in PM.
 
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Zoa

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I was a G'dorf and Lucario user throughout my previous three years of Brawl. It definitely takes skill to utilize, but it's not a very rewarding mechanic after I started appreciating game play more. I feel as though Lucario isn't "designed" properly yet in PM. Aside from constantly getting the nerf bat in each installment, I don't think the PMDT has completely lived up to the "reward for landing hits" part of Lucario's theme.

With lacking tools in neutral (poor wavedash distance, high commitment projectile, bad DACUS, high commitment moves throughout move set, etc.), most of the approach options (DT and ES in some instances) are forced into being used instead of acting as a justifiable reward. It's more like "land this amount of damage so I can actually have options". The other part is that super FP and AB aren't anywhere as desirable to use as DT or ES, and are underdeveloped (assuming here) as a result.
 

Thor

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To be honest, I would be 100% happy with Lucario if you always started a stock with at least one aura charge. That is, if you had less than one, you now have exactly one, and if you had more than one (part of a charge and or two full charges), you have exactly how much aura you had left when you died. It would make using charges at high percents less risky - as it stands, if you go for something gutsy, miss, and get KO'd, you are now playing a very substandard character, since it feels like Lucario is basically designed to always be able to threaten a DT or ES burst - otherwise his neutral is just laughable, at least to a Fox who has decent space and is proficient at SHDL [not that it's amazing with those, either... since it's still high risk variable reward].
 

Risky

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You have to consider if going for that risky option is worth it, much like using meter in Street Fighter when you're very far behind in a round. If you want to take the chance to win, or have more resources for the next round.
 

Zoa

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I'm personally against starting each stock with an aura charge. The premise is to earn them, so I personally don't feel comfortable just having them handed to me. I'm also not comfortable with having to use supers to cover all my lackluster options when it's supposed to be a reward. I've always been an advocate about returning FCAS to its vanilla Brawl version (faster and longer range that travels in a straight trajectory) to actually have an option to force commitments, and have a better neutral tool as a result. This way there's a consistent option available in conjunction with Luc's DD and extremely fast (but short) wavedash.
 

MegaMissingno

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Having meter-dependent option coverage makes plenty of sense to me and is faithful to Street Fighter. Like how FADCs are used to make things safe, and some EXs have special properties like armor or fireball immunity. It's why efficient meter management is so important in that game. Some characters are really in trouble when they don't have meter ready to use when they need it.

Though that has me thinking, what if the max meter was bumped up from 2 charges to 3? Maybe also make it build a little faster, like 40% per charge instead of 50%. Then you'd have your options available more often, and it'd be easier to save enough for when you need it most.
 
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Saikyoshi

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Changed the thread title to be less hostile and more neutral.
 

Zoa

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Major props, Saikyoshi. The title change is very productive. Awesome job.
 

Zoa

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Having meter-dependent option coverage makes plenty of sense to me and is faithful to Street Fighter. Like how FADCs are used to make things safe, and some EXs have special properties like armor or fireball immunity. It's why efficient meter management is so important in that game. Some characters are really in trouble when they don't have meter ready to use when they need it.

Though that has me thinking, what if the max meter was bumped up from 2 charges to 3? Maybe also make it build a little faster, like 40% per charge instead of 50%. Then you'd have your options available more often, and it'd be easier to save enough for when you need it most.
There's a problem with that though. Smash is much more about stage control and movement than Street Fighter. Having to land blows in order to have a limited number of options is kind of counterproductive to the whole reward aspect. Especially with Lucario's poor advanced movement options.
 

Zoa

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Ugh. I don't troll. If I wish to be an ass, then I'm not subtle about it. I regarded the title change in an optimistic manner, and expressed my thoughts. I considered it simply to be better than what the previous title was after the sudden shift in topic in this thread. Is it so bad to actually be proactive?
 

Risky

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Ugh. I don't troll. If I wish to be an ***, then I'm not subtle about it. I regarded the title change in an optimistic manner, and expressed my thoughts. I considered it simply to be better than what the previous title was after the sudden shift in topic in this thread. Is it so bad to actually be proactive?
Can't tell if serious, or trolling.
 

Zoa

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If I can't tell someone I think they did a good job changing the title to fit the new change in topic, then I don't know what to tell you.

Edit: By "new change in topic" I mean the current way the discussion is going instead of the old rant.
 
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Risky

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Messages
515
Location
Rhode Island
If I can't tell someone I think they did a good job changing the title to fit the new change in topic, then I don't know what to tell you.
If you post one more time...

420 BRO! I kept refreshing the page hoping you would have posted, but don't feel like it anymore.
 
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