Vanilla Aura Mechanic vs. Super Meter Mechanic Discussion

[Saikyoshi]

This is a thread to discuss the merits of Lucario's original Aura mechanic versus the Super mechanic he has here.

Keep in mind that this was originally a rant thread, so earlier posts are hostile. That portion of the argument has ended, so, including myself, all posters should be mindful of their points here from this point on.

The original OP is spoilered below for the sake of giving context to the early posts.

Spoiler

Lucario is the primary problem with Project M as a whole. Why am I saying this?

Because that's not Lucario.

Don't pretend that Furry!Akuma even has a passing resemblance to Lucario. He needs to be reskinned into another character, because right now, he's just ****ting on the people who were comfortable with him.

You may complain about how Aura "rewarded you for playing badly", but Actual Lucario suffers from bad play more than any other character in that a mistake will cost him all of his power and setting up along with a stock. If you go in expecting to win with Lucario by playing badly, you're in for a world of hurt.

Project M just shows complete disrespect for the character by removing his core mechanic and giving him completely unnecessary and unfitting Street Fighter animations.

I've tried holding this in, but this is the main thing that prevents me from taking P:M seriously, and the game as a whole would be improved if he were either reskinned to be honest with who he actually is, repaired to work the way he's supposed to (perhaps giving his current moves to a Clone Engine spot), or removing him outright, because the blatant carelessness and disrespect with his design is a very clear weak point.

</rant>

 

[Kuraudo]

I think just removing the cancel-on-hit thing would be all that Lucario needs tbh. I love his Side B that acts as a throw down (it looks so badass and smooth. aerial Force Palm at its finest), and the NAir is a nice tribute to the tatsumaki (however, his Brawl/Smash 4 NAir look more natural). People just saw Lucario's Aura Sphere (which is called Hadoudan in Japan) and saw it as a Hadouken and went "Hey, to make Lucario more unique, give him Street Fighter moves!"

I can't say it breaks the game, he looks so awesome when he goes in, but yeah. It's not exactly "Smash" persay.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I feel like you are deciding what is "Smash" and what isn't. Lucario is still a completely fair and acceptable character as he is. He's a fighting type character, so the Street Fighter system is appropriate, and this system rewards you for not getting hit and getting hits on your opponent much more than the previous Brawl Aura system did. The makers of Project M did not have to keep him faithful to his Brawl design, and because of that, he's developed into the cool and awesome character he is now. Also, considering that Project M has been in development since 2010/2011, Lucario's had this OHC system and the Street Fighter moves since 2.0 I believe, so from my perspective that is Lucario and I wouldn't want him any other way. Regardless, he's not going to get changed because the developers and many other people believe him to be good the way he is.

 

[Zoa]

Lucario is the primary problem with Project M as a whole. Why am I saying this?

Because that's not Lucario.

Don't pretend that Furry!Akuma even has a passing resemblance to Lucario. He needs to be reskinned into another character, because right now, he's just ****ting on the people who were comfortable with him.

You may complain about how Aura "rewarded you for playing badly", but Actual Lucario suffers from bad play more than any other character in that a mistake will cost him all of his power and setting up along with a stock. If you go in expecting to win with Lucario by playing badly, you're in for a world of hurt.

Project M just shows complete disrespect for the character by removing his core mechanic and giving him completely unnecessary and unfitting Street Fighter animations.

I've tried holding this in, but this is the main thing that prevents me from taking P:M seriously, and the game as a whole would be improved if he were either reskinned to be honest with who he actually is, repaired to work the way he's supposed to (perhaps giving his current moves to a Clone Engine spot), or removing him outright, because the blatant carelessness and disrespect with his design is a very clear weak point.

</rant>

You're basing your entire argument on what you imply to know for fact. The bolded isn't a fact. Lucario's aura mechanic also removes control from him by forcing you to play at the percents you get PUNISHED for ironically. I'd rather be rewarded for my actual skill with my character confirming hits over my ability to survive my opponents' attacks. Seriously, stop arguing over aesthetics you think fit a character over others when the former was never a part of its character prior to Brawl anyways.

 

[Daltonthelou]

If Lucarios OHC system was removed the Character would be bad and almost un-usable. He is perfect where he is now. He may be strong right now but I don't see anybody winning nationals, do you?

 

[Saikyoshi]

You're basing your entire argument on what you imply to know for fact. The bolded isn't a fact. Lucario's aura mechanic also removes control from him by forcing you to play at the percents you get PUNISHED for ironically. I'd rather be rewarded for my actual skill with my character confirming hits over my ability to survive my opponents' attacks. Seriously, stop arguing over aesthetics you think fit a character over others when the former was never a part of its character prior to Brawl anyways.

How would you feel if Marth's tipper was removed? I'm not talking about Lucina – I'm talking about just plain taking it away from Marth. It wasn't part of his character prior to Smash, but it defines him within the context of Smash. And if you don't feel comfortable with the unorthodox mechanic, you simply play as someone else and leave the people who see value in it alone.

And it Doesn't "force" you to play at high percents; I personally prefer to play at lower percents, trading offense for defence, and going on the offensive as my damage rises naturally over the course of the match.

 

[Risky]

if you don't feel comfortable with the unorthodox mechanic, you simply play as someone else and leave the people who see value in it alone.

Sometimes taking your own advice is best.

 

[Zoa]

How would you feel if Marth's tipper was removed? I'm not talking about Lucina – I'm talking about just plain taking it away from Marth. It wasn't part of his character prior to Smash, but it defines him within the context of Smash. And if you don't feel comfortable with the unorthodox mechanic, you simply play as someone else and leave the people who see value in it alone.

And it Doesn't "force" you to play at high percents; I personally prefer to play at lower percents, trading offense for defence, and going on the offensive as my damage rises naturally over the course of the match.

Which fits your subjective opinion entirely. You are forced to play within the confines of the damage you incurred entirely. I personally don't play Marth, and could honestly care less about a tipper change. I also dropped Smash 4 recently because I got sick of it, so I can't comment on any Lucina bits.

Sometimes taking your own advice is best.

Pretty much this.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Sometimes taking your own advice is best.

You misunderstand me. The mechanic itself isn't inherently bad, but it's overwritten a perfectly decent mechanic in its implementation.

Give Ryu a Clone Engine spot and let Lucario actually be Lucario.

 

[Risky]

You misunderstand me. The mechanic itself isn't inherently bad, but it's overwritten a perfectly decent mechanic in its implementation.

Give Ryu a Clone Engine spot and let Lucario actually be Lucario.

I understand what you said, and applied it.

I can't speak for the PMBR, but I highly doubt they will change Lucario in this way. He's very fun, interesting, and full of depth the way he is. Replacing his most powerful mechanic with an unintuitive one does not make sense. It isn't Melee. Not to say that an OHC system is, but so far it fits very nicely into P:M without polarizing the power of the character.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I understand what you said, and applied it.

I can't speak for the PMBR, but I highly doubt they will change Lucario in this way. He's very fun, interesting, and full of depth the way he is. Replacing his most powerful mechanic with an unintuitive one does not make sense. It isn't Melee. Not to say that an OHC system is, but so far it fits very nicely into P:M without polarizing the power of the character.

But it's on the wrong character. I'm not the only person upset at losing Lucario.

And I seriously don't get how Aura is "unintuitive". It's a risk/reward system that the PMBR didn't even try to give a chance.

 

[Mean Green]

If it matters that much, why not request a vanilla brawl moveset in the Custom Content forum here, or on Brawl Vault? That way you get your lucario back, and we get to keep the Lucario that the PMDT wagelessly worked so hard to give us.

Why not try to adapt and give him a chance.

 

[Risky]

But it's on the wrong character. I'm not the only person upset at losing Lucario.

And I seriously don't get how Aura is "unintuitive". It's a risk/reward system that the PMBR didn't even try to give a chance.

This is pretty cliche, but you can't make everyone happy. Of course some people don't like the changes... many others do. "Wrong" is not even applicable in this situation.

The Aura mechanic in Brawl rewards you for getting hit. What else in Smash rewards you for just getting hit? If you got two strikes the first two pitches at bat, but that meant your next hit will be a homerun if you connect, does that sound rewarding to you?

 

[Saikyoshi]

By the way, there seems to be some confusion in this thread. I'm not talking about the on-hit canceling. I'm talking about the Super meter and the ridiculous and unnatural looking Street Fighter animations.

This is pretty cliche, but you can't make everyone happy. Of course some people don't like the changes... many others do. "Wrong" is not even applicable in this situation.

The Aura mechanic in Brawl rewards you for getting hit. What else in Smash rewards you for just getting hit? If you got two strikes the first two pitches at bat, but that meant your next hit will be a homerun if you connect, does that sound rewarding to you?

You have options with Lucario that you don't have with any other fighter. Do you drop your defenses to get some early kills and catch the opponent off guard when you start the fight stronger than normal? That's called setting up. Maybe you've heard of it. Do you draw out the gains and make it last? Yes, actually, it does sound rewarding when you pull it off. But we haven't been able to see much of it so far because Brawl did it horribly and, while Smash 4 did it better, it's too young to have its meta developed much. It DOES have potential, and it is NOT just "rewarding you for playing badly". And the baseball analogy? Not helping your case. Does the pitcher predict that the risking batter is striking on purpose and walk him? Does the pitcher try to throw him off on the deciding pitch? It sounds pretty rewarding to me.

 

[Zoa]

Okay. Humor me for a moment aside from the aesthetics bits. I'll draw some comparison and contrasts between Brawl Lucario and PM Lucario. I'm not doing Smash 4 because his hitboxes (which were a major part of his play) were royally fudged up in it.

Up smash: In Brawl it hit between frame 15-18 if I recall correctly, had a bunch of ending lag, and had an aura residue that acted as a shield of sorts. Project M replaces it with a Shoryuken based uppercut. It now starts on frame 10, can be jump cancelled, ASC to read their DI for follow ups, can waveland at the end to cover any screw ups while not locking you in place, and can be reversed on start up. It overall has much better utility while having a consistent amount of power to the move.

Nair: Brawl had the damage cap at 15% tied in stocks, start on frame 6, and generally served as a set up move. Now it's replaced as a hard hitting 15% move with lingering hitboxes that do 12% and 9%. You can ASC the move to make the lag almost nonexistent. It serves as a reliable kill move with consistent power at the cost of almost double the start up (about 13 frames).

I'll post some more later. Too lazy to continue.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Okay. Humor me for a moment aside from the aesthetics bits. I'll draw some comparison and contrasts between Brawl Lucario and PM Lucario. I'm not doing Smash 4 because his hitboxes (which were a major part of his play) were royally fudged up in it.

Up smash: In Brawl it hit between frame 15-18 if I recall correctly, had a bunch of ending lag, and had an aura residue that acted as a shield of sorts. Project M replaces it with a Shoryuken based uppercut. It now starts on frame 4, can be jump cancelled, ASC to read their DI for follow ups, can waveland at the end to cover any screw ups while not locking you in place, and can be reversed on start up. It overall has much better utility while having a consistent amount of power to the move.

Nair: Brawl had the damage cap at 15% tied in stocks, start on frame 6, and generally served as a set up move. Now it's replaced as a hard hitting 15% move with lingering hitboxes that do 12% and 9%. You can ASC the move to make the lag almost nonexistent. It serves as a reliable kill move with consistent power at the cost of almost double the start up (about 13 frames).

I'll post some more later. Too lazy to continue.

You do make a case for the animations there. I wouldn't mind them if there was some way to make them look like a natural fit with Lucario's Tai Chi-esque fighting style. But right now, they don't. Especially the Shoryuken, since Lucario doesn't have hands to punch with. He has paws, so seeing him try to punch looks off. Maybe if they were tweaked a bit?

And the modifications made to him in P:M, including the on-hit canceling, would not be incompatible with the aura mechanic. I'd say even the Super system might work, except that I assume it directly overwrites the files for the aura mechanic.

All I know is, I liked toying with the opponents and changing things up at different percentages. I hate that I can't do that effectively now.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Up smash: In Brawl it hit between frame 15-18 if I recall correctly, had a bunch of ending lag, and had an aura residue that acted as a shield of sorts. Project M replaces it with a Shoryuken based uppercut. It now starts on frame 4, can be jump cancelled, ASC to read their DI for follow ups, can waveland at the end to cover any screw ups while not locking you in place, and can be reversed on start up. It overall has much better utility while having a consistent amount of power to the move.
.

I'm pretty sure Lucario's Up Smash starts on frame 9 or at least closer to 9 than 4. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Zoa]

Well, I never did say the Brawl/Smash 4 mechanic system wouldn't work with OHC. The point I was beginning to make was that the changes to his altered moves are much better. They're much more consistent and better in terms of utility. Especially when combined with the OHC mechanic. Don't count different percentage options out yet. Lucario has an incredible number of set up options at virtually any reasonable percent the opponent has, and has to play defensively for the most part. His neutral game is very similar to Sheik's. AS for spacing and punish hard. You can still mix up his play style more than most, if not every, other character in the cast.

 

[Zoa]

I'm pretty sure Lucario's Up Smash starts on frame 9 or at least closer to 9 than 4. Don't quote me on that though.

Huh. I remember someone said it starts on frame four. Gotta double check it.

 

[Risky]

By the way, there seems to be some confusion in this thread. I'm not talking about the on-hit canceling. I'm talking about the Super meter and the ridiculous and unnatural looking Street Fighter animations.


You have options with Lucario that you don't have with any other fighter. Do you drop your defenses to get some early kills and catch the opponent off guard when you start the fight stronger than normal? That's called setting up. Maybe you've heard of it. Do you draw out the gains and make it last? Yes, actually, it does sound rewarding when you pull it off. But we haven't been able to see much of it so far because Brawl did it horribly and, while Smash 4 did it better, it's too young to have its meta developed much. It DOES have potential, and it is NOT just "rewarding you for playing badly". And the baseball analogy? Not helping your case. Does the pitcher predict that the risking batter is striking on purpose and walk him? Does the pitcher try to throw him off on the deciding pitch? It sounds pretty rewarding to me.

I thought you were referring to OHC, yes. I still don't agree with you though. The P:M version of super meter makes perfect sense... you build up meter when you hit the opponent, rewarding you for comboing or pressuring their shield.

Your "options" as you call them with Lucario are not options at all. You are literally always rewarded in Smash if you are not getting hit by your opponent. If they are at 90% and you're at 0%, and you're repeatedly knocking them offstage with an attack that isn't killing them, you're still winning. Getting hit does not improve your gamestate in this situation. There's no logical reason you'd ever want to get hit, even with the Brawl Lucario mechanic. It's a crutch mechanic that, again, rewards you for playing poorly.

The pitcher is getting punished for throwing strikes - the thing he is put on the mound to do. The pitcher is trying to throw off the batter on every pitch.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Original Lucario had to go. Aura is not coming back, ever. It is a toxic mechanic that is completely contrary to PM's design goals. If you want comeback mechanics so badly, go play Brawl or Smash 4. Or Mario Kart. But please keep it out of PM.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Original Lucario had to go. Aura is not coming back, ever. It is a toxic mechanic that is completely contrary to PM's design goals. If you want comeback mechanics so badly, go play Brawl or Smash 4. Or Mario Kart. But please keep it out of PM.

I thought you were referring to OHC, yes. I still don't agree with you though. The P:M version of super meter makes perfect sense... you build up meter when you hit the opponent, rewarding you for comboing or pressuring their shield.

Your "options" as you call them with Lucario are not options at all. You are literally always rewarded in Smash if you are not getting hit by your opponent. If they are at 90% and you're at 0%, and you're repeatedly knocking them offstage with an attack that isn't killing them, you're still winning. Getting hit does not improve your gamestate in this situation. There's no logical reason you'd ever want to get hit, even with the Brawl Lucario mechanic. It's a crutch mechanic that, again, rewards you for playing poorly.

The pitcher is getting punished for throwing strikes - the thing he is put on the mound to do. The pitcher is trying to throw off the batter on every pitch.

It's not a comeback or a crutch mechanic. At all. And it ticks me off when people say that it is. I'd like to point out again that Lucario suffers more than any other character upon losing a stock. You can't afford to be reckless with Lucario - If you get knocked out in high power mode, there goes your setup, sealing your fate and making a comeback even harder. You can be reckless with Furry Akuma, who has nothing to lose and can just fire a Super Aura Sphere to make up for a lost stock.

Also, MegaMissingno.? Compare Smash 4 to the unplayable train wrecks known as Brawl and Mario Kart again. Go on, try my patience.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Just because you have multiple stocks doesn't suddenly make it not a comeback mechanic. It'll kick in again on the next stock, and it's triggered the exact same way. By taking damage. Getting a boost for taking damage is the dictionary definition of a comeback mechanic, no matter how you want to try and twist it to pretend it's not.

Project M is a game by and for competitive players, and the majority of the community, including the developers, hates these kinds of mechanics. It's completely antithetical to the devs' design goals. They took it out for a reason, and in its place they designed a new mechanic that's instead meant to reward dealing damage, which is deliberately intended to call attention to the reason why this change was made. Flipping it around is a tongue-in-cheek jab at the disdain most of us have for comeback mechanics.

Just go play Smash 4, they cranked it up to insane levels just for you. But it's absolutely never coming back to PM, deal with it.

 

[THEDADPOOL]

It's not a comeback or a crutch mechanic. At all. And it ticks me off when people say that it is. I'd like to point out again that Lucario suffers more than any other character upon losing a stock. You can't afford to be reckless with Lucario - If you get knocked out in high power mode, there goes your setup, sealing your fate and making a comeback even harder. You can be reckless with Furry Akuma, who has nothing to lose and can just fire a Super Aura Sphere to make up for a lost stock.

Also, MegaMissingno.? Compare Smash 4 to the unplayable train wrecks known as Brawl and Mario Kart again. Go on, try my patience.

i would like to see you throw out his spirit bomb against any half decent player and not get power shielded.

also if you dont like lucario's new system then i suggest you either play brawl/smash 4 or pick up a different character considering pm is neither one of the games and developers can and will do what they want with him or any other character. the character isn't broken and the way character works suits him (and yes i know i didn't explain how it suits him it should be pretty obvious).

also posting a rant on a lucario page isn't exactly wise consider most the people who look and these threads are lucario mains

 

[Saikyoshi]

i would like to see you throw out his spirit bomb against any half decent player and not get power shielded.

also if you dont like lucario's new system then i suggest you either play brawl/smash 4 or pick up a different character considering pm is neither one of the games and developers can and will do what they want with him or any other character. the character isn't broken and the way character works suits him (and yes i know i didn't explain how it suits him it should be pretty obvious).

also posting a rant on a lucario page isn't exactly wise consider most the people who look and these threads are lucario mains

All I don't like is that they ripped away what made Lucario who he is. The other stuff, I can tolerate, but the removal of the Aura system is an unforgivable violation of the character in my eyes.

 

[Zoa]

Saikyoshi, without going into aesthetics or how you think something fits Lucario as a character, can you thoroughly explain why the removal of the aura system is bad in game play?

 

[MegaMissingno]

And to many of us, including the PMDT, Aura's existence was "an unforgivable violation" of competitive design. "What made Lucario who he is" is also what made him so toxic and incompatible with PM's design goals. It could not be allowed to stay that way.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Saikyoshi, without going into aesthetics or how you think something fits Lucario as a character, can you thoroughly explain why the removal of the aura system is bad in game play?

Like I tried to explain to Mega MissingNo, though evidently he completely ignored me, it's not a comeback mechanic or anything close to one. It's an all-or-nothing mechanic. A good Lucario has to set up at low percentages as much as they can so they can play their absolute damnedest at full power, because if they get knocked out and lose that power, everything is stacked against them. They have a brief window of opportunity to secure a lead that they have to try their hardest not to lose.

It doesn't reward bad play. It rewards survival. Expecting to use aura as a crutch will only get you killed, because it's balanced out by Lucario's kill moves leaving a lot of openings to finish him off and take away his power.

 

[Zoa]

Like I tried to explain to Mega MissingNo, though evidently he completely ignored me, it's not a comeback mechanic or anything close to one. It's an all-or-nothing mechanic. A good Lucario has to set up at low percentages as much as they can so they can play their absolute damnedest at full power, because if they get knocked out and lose that power, everything is stacked against them. They have a brief window of opportunity to secure a lead that they have to try their hardest not to lose.

It doesn't reward bad play. It rewards survival. Expecting to use aura as a crutch will only get you killed, because it's balanced out by Lucario's kill moves leaving a lot of openings to finish him off and take away his power.

Think about it this way: You take damage and increase your damage output the more stocks you're behind in Brawl. You get weaker the more you're ahead in Brawl. Isn't that a comeback mechanic though?

The same can be said for PM Lucario's super system you described. It's an all or nothing mechanic because you lose charges you commit to using. Lucario's approach game is pretty horrible in PM, and lots of his approach moves are burst movement options that force you to waste a charge. You also have only one chance to use a charge. If you get hit in the middle of doing a super, then it's wasted. You have to earn your charges and use them wisely as much as staying alive while hoping to keep aura.

 

[Mean Green]

Why are you so adamant? What does it matter what system he uses, as long as he brings something great to the table that makes him worth using?
And I saw you say something about returning to his 'tai chi-esque fighting style' or something, I think you're mostly saying that because of his down taunt pose or the wiki page. I mean how much tai chi have you actually watched?

Don't call him Furry Akuma. His moves were inspired by Street Fighter, but he's also more of a pokemon now than he was in Brawl, simply because of the PM changes you seem to dislike.
- His f-tilt and b-air are now a punch, nothing wrong with that, as he is a fighting-type after all, not a disjointed hitbox-type.
- Shoryuken and Hurricane Kick are also acceptable; in pokemon there are the moves Sky Uppercut (which he can learn) and Rolling Kick.
- On-hit-cancel system is perfect for him because that's also a shoutout to Close Combat (which he learns); I believe a weak fist fighter like Lucario should be able to threaten others in close, rather than try keep them out with disjoints. With how weak his common attacks are, it's a good buff we should appreciate, to let him double-team away after applying some pressure.
- Brawl's aura system is extremely situational, like the move Reversal itself. PM's system is like he has a Metronome- getting rewarded simply for attacking! In what light is that not an improvement?

You know with all the effort you put into logging into smashboards.com and typing up arguments, you could've been watching/learning/playing/adaping to PM Lucario instead. Just saiyan.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Think about it this way: You take damage and increase your damage output the more stocks you're behind in Brawl. You get weaker the more you're ahead in Brawl. Isn't that a comeback mechanic though?

The same can be said for PM Lucario's super system you described. It's an all or nothing mechanic because you lose charges you commit to using. Lucario's approach game is pretty horrible in PM, and lots of his approach moves are burst movement options that force you to waste a charge. You also have only one chance to use a charge. If you get hit in the middle of doing a super, then it's wasted. You have to earn your charges and use them wisely as much as staying alive while hoping to keep aura.

He keeps his Super charge upon getting KO'd. I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

Why are you so adamant? What does it matter what system he uses, as long as he brings something great to the table that makes him worth using?
And I saw you say something about returning to his 'tai chi-esque fighting style' or something, I think you're mostly saying that because of his down taunt pose or the wiki page. I mean how much tai chi have you actually watched?

Don't call him Furry Akuma. His moves were inspired by Street Fighter, but he's also more of a pokemon now than he was in Brawl, simply because of the PM changes you seem to dislike.
- His f-tilt and b-air are now a punch, nothing wrong with that, as he is a fighting-type after all, not a disjointed hitbox-type.
- Shoryuken and Hurricane Kick are also acceptable; in pokemon there are the moves Sky Uppercut (which he can learn) and Rolling Kick.
- On-hit-cancel system is perfect for him because that's also a shoutout to Close Combat (which he learns); I believe a weak fist fighter like Lucario should be able to threaten others in close, rather than try keep them out with disjoints. With how weak his common attacks are, it's a good buff we should appreciate, to let him double-team away after applying some pressure.
- Brawl's aura system is extremely situational, like the move Reversal itself. PM's system is like he has a Metronome- getting rewarded simply for attacking! In what light is that not an improvement?

You know with all the effort you put into logging into smashboards.com and typing up arguments, you could've been watching/learning/playing/adaping to PM Lucario instead. Just saiyan.

That's not Lucario, though.

Once again, I'm not talking about the on-hit cancels. I actually like the on-hit cancels.

And my problem with him punching is that he doesn't have hands.

All I know is, I like how he is in 4. Not Brawl, 4. He is fun and effective in 4, securing leads I gain early despite being terrible at making a comeback if I DON'T get an early lead. I see where you're coming from with the animations, but he just doesn't feel right without the aura mechanic. I'd like to bring up again how it would feel if Marth suddenly lost his tipper. That just wouldn't be Marth.

 

[Zoa]

Please stop ignoring the other points I'm getting at. Despite keeping it upon suffering a KO you still must use it wisely. Committing to it and getting hit out of it means you lose that resource. This isn't the case with the previous aura system. The more damage you take, and the more stocks you're behind, increase your power and you retain it while it can only increase as Luc doesn't have a healing option.

The new aura system is similar to Robin's tome/Levin Sword system. You need to plan ahead before using your supers. The main difference is that you can only commit to two of anything at the most. Robin has it much easier in that his options regenerate on their own in an alloted time, at the beginning of a stock, and using them up provide him with an incredibly powerful item game.

 

[やみKirby]

He keeps his Super charge upon getting KO'd. I don't think we're talking about the same thing.


That's not Lucario, though.

Once again, I'm not talking about the on-hit cancels. I actually like the on-hit cancels.

All I know is, I like how he is in 4. Not Brawl, 4. He is fun and effective in 4, securing leads I gain early despite being terrible at making a comeback if I DON'T get an early lead. I see where you're coming from with the animations, but he just doesn't feel right without the aura mechanic. I'd like to bring up again how it would feel if Marth suddenly lost his tipper. That just wouldn't be Marth.

if u think hes not fun in this game, like many people said before, DONT PLAY HIM THEN

 

[Saikyoshi]

Please stop ignoring the other points I'm getting at. Despite keeping it upon suffering a KO you still must use it wisely. Committing to it and getting hit out of it means you lose that resource. This isn't the case with the previous aura system. The more damage you take, and the more stocks you're behind, increase your power and you retain it while it can only increase as Luc doesn't have a healing option.

The new aura system is similar to Robin's tome/Levin Sword system. You need to plan ahead before using your supers. The main difference is that you can only commit to two of anything at the most. Robin has it much easier in that his options regenerate on their own in an alloted time, at the beginning of a stock, and using them up provide him with an incredibly powerful item game.

Alright, you have me beaten, even though there's still some things I disagree with, which I've bolded.

I won't accept that P:M Lucario is the same individual as the Brawl and 4 Lucarios, though, although that's the good thing about him being a species and not strictly one character... And as I said, I'm nowhere near the only person who has a problem with this.

 

[Zoa]

It isn't a matter about having "beaten" anybody. I can understand if you're upset about the removal, but it's important to understand the mechanics of something from different angles instead looking at it just from a few of them. This is why other people can help you understand it better because no one person can cover an incredible number of angles without some significant time invested into it.

 

[Saikyoshi]

It isn't a matter about having "beaten" anybody. I can understand if you're upset about the removal, but it's important to understand the mechanics of something from different angles instead looking at it just from a few of them. This is why other people can help you understand it better because no one person can cover an incredible number of angles without some significant time invested into it.

I say the same thing to anyone who immediately dismisses the mechanic I prefer as "rewarding bad play" and refusing to see its benefits. You've given reasons for your preference, which is a lot more than I can say for most people that I've discussed this with, who prefer to laugh from their high horse at the pathetic little casual.

I'll give him a chance, but he feels like an entirely separate character still that has to be mastered separately. I will just have to accept that he is a different Lucario than the other games have, and the original has been cut from the roster.

 

[Mean Green]

That's not Lucario, though.

Is that really your argument? What constitutes what Lucario is/isn't?

And my problem with him punching is that he doesn't have hands.

He only punches on 2 moves, bair and usmash. Ftilt is a backhand attack, and he has spikes on them. Besides he learns like 8 or 9 punching moves in his native game. Why aren't you complaining to GameFreak.

All I know is, I like how he is in 4. Not Brawl, 4. He is fun and effective in 4 ...

Project M isn't going to make any efforts to be like smash 4... whatsoever. PM's popularity is already somewhat of a threat to Sm4sh's sales. Just play that game instead if you have such a problem with PM Lucario. Nobody in the Lucario forums is going to agree with you that he should be reverted to be more like Hal Lab's version of Lucario.

...but he just doesn't feel right without the aura mechanic.

Subjective/opinion

I'd like to bring up again how it would feel if Marth suddenly lost his tipper. That just wouldn't be Marth.

Lucario gained something, to compensate for his loss. Its practicality and consistency makes it an improvement. Your example can't compare.

 

[MegaMissingno]

He keeps his Super charge upon getting KO'd. I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

Yeah, and? What does that have do with anything?

That's not Lucario, though.

And Aura is? That doesn't exist in Pokemon either. Both mechanics were invented out of whole cloth.

And my problem with him punching is that he doesn't have hands.

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Tail
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch

Oh hey look at that, punches! Take it up with Game Freak.

All I know is, I like how he is in 4. Not Brawl, 4. He is fun and effective in 4, securing leads I gain early despite being terrible at making a comeback if I DON'T get an early lead. I see where you're coming from with the animations, but he just doesn't feel right without the aura mechanic. I'd like to bring up again how it would feel if Marth suddenly lost his tipper. That just wouldn't be Marth.

And many more of us ****ing hate how he is in 4. It's even more toxic than in Brawl, **** that noise. I bust my ass off in neutral to get him up to 120% while I don't take more than 25%, yet somehow this is considered kill percent for both of us and and I lose it all in one touch. And that damn recovery ends up making it harder to kill him, trying only makes it worse. It's so infuriating to deal with, especially for my Puff, I cannot stand the matchup. It is completely unenjoyable to play against. I hate it so much I'd cite it as half the reason why I've given up and quit that game (the other half is shields).

Marth's tipper is a good mechanic, so they kept it. Lucario's Aura is not, so they removed it. And he's not even the only one to get drastic changes in PM, look at what they did with Wario, Zelda, Ganondorf, Mewtwo, and Ivysaur, just to name a few. Staying faithful to Brawl is not a priority in a game that bills itself as the anti-Brawl, of course the PMDT is gonna change things to better fit their vision.

If you want it that badly, go play Smash 4. Bye.

 

[Zoa]

I say the same thing to anyone who immediately dismisses the mechanic I prefer as "rewarding bad play" and refusing to see its benefits. You've given reasons for your preference, which is a lot more than I can say for most people that I've discussed this with, who prefer to laugh from their high horse at the pathetic little casual.

I'll give him a chance, but he feels like an entirely separate character still that has to be mastered separately. I will just have to accept that he is a different Lucario than the other games have, and the original has been cut from the roster.

I would never laugh at how someone plays. I may be intolerant someone's play if what they do either messes up what I'm doing, intentionally do something stupid that wastes my time, or put my character at the risk of something like friendly fire. I'm glad you'll give him a shot. I hope you find what he does is fun, and remember that you can ask others on how best to utilize him on this board.

 

[Zoa]

And many more of us ****ing hate how he is in 4. It's even more toxic than in Brawl, **** that noise. I bust my *** off in neutral to get him up to 120% while I don't take more than 25%, yet somehow this is considered kill percent for both of us and and I lose it all in one touch. And that damn recovery ends up making it harder to kill him, trying only makes it worse. It's so infuriating to deal with, especially for my Puff, I cannot stand the matchup. It is completely unenjoyable to play against. I hate it so much I'd cite it as half the reason why I've given up and quit that game (the other half is shields).

I really don't like the changes to Lucario either myself. They ****ed up his hitboxes enormously. I was playing against Mario today (seriously **** his disjointed up special that somehow defies the laws of priority and phase through projectiles that should hit him out of it), and the changes to his hitboxes just royally screw him over. I can't hit with dair off to the sides like I could when I did play Brawl, they reduced the ranged on most of his moves, made them much more narrow, and he now extends hit hurtboxes through some contortionist way on his smashes.