Using & Defining the term "Cheap"

[Morbi]

Eh, Cheap in Smash is just like, the definition of something that is either unfairly good, or doesn't exactly require big skills. Its mostly temporary frustration through, you shouldn't take that too seriously, it's not like everyone plays like that scrubby player with his scrubby character you faced 10 minutes before raging in Smashboards.

To be fair, if "cheapness" in Smash is defined as something that does not require much skill, there are countless "cheap" things about this title.

 

[kendikong]

I'm going to use an extreme, exaggerated example. If there was a fighting game with a character that was so OP and had a ridiculously move that most people agreed was broken and was almost impossible to avoid, and that person ONLY uses that move against you. Would you then consider that cheap?

Seriously though, I'm not saying cheap in smash is a bad thing, or that you shouldnt be using cheap moves in smash, cause using them is what it takes to win more easily. Im a pretty high level player, but I can at least admit that some of things that i do is cheap.

Snakes ftilt is broken and cheap. I was able to beat a couple high level players doing nothing but snake ftilt spam and I dont even use snake. What does that say about that move if I was able to accomplish that? Obviously its broken and op, that you have to admit, and clearly it doesnt take a lot of skill since I dont even use snake.

 

[kendikong]

You do realize that "cheap" in this context is a colloquial term, correct? Secondly, the only example of cheating on my list was unplugging a controller and I could easily replace that with "rabidly shaking your hands in your opponent's peripheral vision." As it stands, I do not believe in the existence of "cheap" based on my post. So I do not really need to learn the difference regardless. As far as I am concerned, it is not possible to be "cheap" in a video-game if IT IS IN THE VIDEO-GAME.

So you dont think looking at an opponents screen is cheating, or breaking an oral agreement is cheating.

OK.

 

[Reila]

Guys, standing at an edge and gimping little mac players is cheap. Its easy, requires no skill, and its almost certain victory. I do this all the time to little mac and even I admit its f*cking cheap. My friends like playing little mac, and I avoid resorting to cheap methods, so I never do this when playing my my buds. I'd rather fight them normally.

As far as I know, a good Little Mac player shouldn't be approaching the edges anyways. He wants people to approach him, not the opposite.

 

[kendikong]

As far as I know, a good Little Mac player shouldn't be approaching the edges anyways. He wants people to approach him, not the opposite.

Sure, but he wouldnt have a choice if I dont do anything but stand at the ledge

 

[pollo20x6]

I would probably argue that Akuma mains winning every tournament is a result of fairness, rather than "cheapness." Every single player has the ability to select Akuma and mirror matches are about as balanced as it can get. I see your point, but I would not personally use the term "cheap" to describe Akuma. Instead, I would assert that he is quite clearly the best character in the game. The same applies to Meta Knight. However, if the community has a general consensus and wishes to alter the rule-set to prevent this perceived "cheapness" from occurring, I have no issue with that.

I guess that's technically true. It would be the most balanced to just have everyone be the same best character.

Eh, Cheap in Smash is just like, the definition of something that is either unfairly good, or doesn't exactly require big skills. Its mostly temporary frustration through, you shouldn't take that too seriously, it's not like everyone plays like that scrubby player with his scrubby character you faced 10 minutes before raging in Smashboards.

Are they scrubby because they're using moves that don't take skill to win?
Or are the complainers scrubby because they let those scrubby tactics beat them?
I like to spam PK Fire when the other player is playing ridiculously predictable. Why should I work at beating this guy when they're doing the work for me?
As someone who has gone to two local, weekly-type tournaments (nothing major), I've never been able to pull off PK Fire spam on a legitimately good player. Only on the scrubs.
And yet they think I'm the scrub for exposing their obvious flaws.
Again, there's that arrogant, entitled attitude that complainers seem to have when it comes to defining "cheap" tactics.

At one of the tournaments, I was doing friendlies with someone and he was clearly getting frustrated that he couldn't beat my Ness. But with every game, you could see him working it out in his brain, trying to see how he could change his approach, how to get me to go to him. Basically handling the situation productively.
Not crying like a sore loser "cheap!".

I'm going to use an extreme, exaggerated example. If there was a fighting game with a character that was so OP and had a ridiculously move that most people agreed was broken and was almost impossible to avoid, and that person ONLY uses that move against you. Would you then consider that cheap?

First, I'd ask myself this: Am I the best player in the world?
My answer is no, therefore is it cheap or am I just not good enough? Probably the latter.
Second, just because everyone says something doesn't make it so.
We'll never know if Diddy's hoo-hah was OP because they nerfed it relatively quickly.
That might be the official indication that it was OP, but we'll never know how the meta game would have adapted because of it.
How players would have been forced to find other characters' "hoo-hahs"

Who are we to decide what is "almost impossible" to avoid when we couldn't even place in the top 5 at EVO?
Who are we to say a character is OP when we could probably get destroyed by anyone in the top 5 at EVO with them picking practically any character?

We need to stop thinking we're so great and realize, hey, I still have a lot to learn and therefore I will eventually encounter tactics and strategies that I will have no clue whatsoever on how to counter.

Sure, but he wouldnt have a choice if I dont do anything but stand at the ledge

Which is why he probably won't be top tier like say Sheik, who can bait opponents to coming to him with his needles and has great offensive options.
The way to beat Little Mac is to force him to come to you as he has no projectiles.
If you think that's cheap, well, that's how Sakurai developed him. Little Mac HAS to approach you or be bombarded with projectiles. It's just the way his matchup works. No sane person will aggressively run at Little Mac when they've got projectile options. All Little Mac has to do is spam Smashes which come out extremely fast and have no flinching. Screw that. I'll stand at the edge and wait for him to come at me. If he won't, then I'll just PK Fire/Thunder him. Why do I have to be that one who partakes in an uphill battle when it can easily be avoided?

 

[link2702]

I guess that's technically true. It would be the most balanced to just have everyone be the same best character.


Are they scrubby because they're using moves that don't take skill to win?
Or are the complainers scrubby because they let those scrubby tactics beat them?
I like to spam PK Fire when the other player is playing ridiculously predictable. Why should I work at beating this guy when they're doing the work for me?
As someone who has gone to two local, weekly-type tournaments (nothing major), I've never been able to pull off PK Fire spam on a legitimately good player. Only on the scrubs.
And yet they think I'm the scrub for exposing their obvious flaws.
Again, there's that arrogant, entitled attitude that complainers seem to have when it comes to defining "cheap" tactics.

At one of the tournaments, I was doing friendlies with someone and he was clearly getting frustrated that he couldn't beat my Ness. But with every game, you could see him working it out in his brain, trying to see how he could change his approach, how to get me to go to him. Basically handling the situation productively.
Not crying like a sore loser "cheap!".


First, I'd ask myself this: Am I the best player in the world?
My answer is no, therefore is it cheap or am I just not good enough? Probably the latter.
Second, just because everyone says something doesn't make it so.
We'll never know if Diddy's hoo-hah was OP because they nerfed it relatively quickly.
That might be the official indication that it was OP, but we'll never know how the meta game would have adapted because of it.
How players would have been forced to find other characters' "hoo-hahs"

Who are we to decide what is "almost impossible" to avoid when we couldn't even place in the top 5 at EVO?
Who are we to say a character is OP when we could probably get destroyed by anyone in the top 5 at EVO with them picking practically any character?

We need to stop thinking we're so great and realize, hey, I still have a lot to learn and therefore I will eventually encounter tactics and strategies that I will have no clue whatsoever on how to counter.


Which is why he probably won't be top tier like say Sheik, who can bait opponents to coming to *her with her needles and has great offensive options.
The way to beat Little Mac is to force him to come to you as he has no projectiles.
If you think that's cheap, well, that's how Sakurai developed him. Little Mac HAS to approach you or be bombarded with projectiles. It's just the way his matchup works. No sane person will aggressively run at Little Mac when they've got projectile options. All Little Mac has to do is spam Smashes which come out extremely fast and have no flinching. Screw that. I'll stand at the edge and wait for him to come at me. If he won't, then I'll just PK Fire/Thunder him. Why do I have to be that one who partakes in an uphill battle when it can easily be avoided?

fixed a small pet peeve. Nintendo has gone on over and over now that shiek is a woman. I don't feel like getting into a transgender debate but, the whole shiek thing was strictly and entirely a disguise to avoid ganon in oot. shiek is zelda, and zelda fully identifies as a female. Her disguise as shiek always was only out of necessity to avoid detection by ganon not because she suddenly feels the urge to identify as male, she knew that ganon and his troops would be looking for a female princess, not a "male" Shiekah" . And in smash its made more apparent that shiek is feminine, which even if you still try to defend her being a "male" in OoT, she is still 100% considered female in smash.

*whew* sorry, that is one of those pet peeves I HAVE to vent when i see her being referred to as "he" i will take it to my comments page instead if you'd rather continue it.

*back on topic*

Again, little mac players should be expecting their opponents to hang out towards the ledge, as been covered many times, its not "cheap" its playing intelligently, especially if the mac players can't seem to find a strategy around it. Playing to win does not = play with insanely risky and unsafe tactics cuz it "looks cooler" or "takes more effort and "skill" " a player who's playing to win will always choose the most effective strategy and keep using it until their opponent figures a way around it. If their opponent can't find a way around it, then they have no reason to stop using it.

 

[Blazerator]

IMO, something is cheap if it fulfills these requirements:

1. It is easy to use
2. It is very effective to just throw out
3. It is difficult to avoid

That being said, I don't find a lot of things cheap in ssb4

 

[pollo20x6]

fixed a small pet peeve. Nintendo has gone on over and over now that shiek is a woman. I don't feel like getting into a transgender debate but, the whole shiek thing was strictly and entirely a disguise to avoid ganon in oot. shiek is zelda, and zelda fully identifies as a female. Her disguise as shiek always was only out of necessity to avoid detection by ganon not because she suddenly feels the urge to identify as male, she knew that ganon and his troops would be looking for a female princess, not a "male" Shiekah" . And in smash its made more apparent that shiek is feminine, which even if you still try to defend her being a "male" in OoT, she is still 100% considered female in smash.

I'm going to keep calling Sheik a He because his artwork from Ocarina of Time has way too broad shoulders and V shaped torso to just be a woman in disguise.
You can't disguise bone structure.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111101223521/zelda/images/6/69/Sheik_Artwork.png

 

[Morbi]

So you dont think looking at an opponents screen is cheating, or breaking an oral agreement is cheating.

OK.

I honestly did not know that there was a rule against either of those two things. But perhaps I am out of touch. Regardless, my point was that something intrinsic to the game is not "cheap," rather, an outside force or influence might qualify as "cheap." That is just my opinion on the matter though, feel free to disagree.

 

[link2702]

I'm going to keep calling Sheik a He because his artwork from Ocarina of Time has way too broad shoulders and V shaped torso to just be a woman in disguise.
You can't disguise bone structure.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111101223521/zelda/images/6/69/Sheik_Artwork.png

Read my responses on ur profile and let's move the discussion there like I said there you CAN argue against the promo art, but not what is shown in the game itself

 

[33percentgod]

There's a simple way to define "cheap" and it applies to every aspect of life. It's little (to no) effort with a maximum return. It's a band touring and recording music in a bathroom for years like Metallica until you get a big break compared to something "cheap" like winning some TV reality show for a record deal.

It's someone honing and practicing Smash4 and learning combos and etc for a result of a win compared to someone pressing B with one finger over and over and getting the same result.

Cheap: Little/No effort - Maximum return. And no it's not "smart", it's lazy, like the guy who never aspires to anything because his rich dad is leaving him money. Laziness.

 

[pollo20x6]

Read my responses on ur profile and let's move the discussion there like I said there you CAN argue against the promo art, but not what is shown in the game itself

I'm going off the art.
And dude, it's just a game, who cares.

 

[pollo20x6]

Cheap: Little/No effort - Maximum return. And no it's not "smart", it's lazy, like the guy who never aspires to anything because his rich dad is leaving him money. Laziness.

Like I've said before, why would I bother doing anything that takes effort when the other opponent is so bad that spamming is literally all it takes. And I won't even touch the topic of "cheap" characters because the meta game is way too young to call anyone cheap.

Go to a tournament and try spamming. It doesn't work.
I lost to a Sonic player who all he did was Down B. Constant spin dashing. This guy was ranked the #5 guy in our area and I live in San Diego, a huge city with a vibrant Smash scene.
How was that possible? Was it really that cheap?

No, it wasn't.
Because when I saw the guy who knocked him out of the tournament,
1. He didn't pull that Spin Dash spam stuff because when he tried it once, he got countered hard.
2. I could see how the guy who beat him's play style was different from mine.

In other words, he spamming Down B because that's all it took to beat me, but when he played a more skilled opponent, he couldn't do that.

Cheap does not equal lazy. It just means the other player sucks enough to fall for such tactics.
It's as lazy as jogging in a 100 m race when your opponent has no legs.
Why would you exert yourself when you don't have to?

 

[Dr. Dobis]

I guess that's technically true. It would be the most balanced to just have everyone be the same best character.


Are they scrubby because they're using moves that don't take skill to win?
Or are the complainers scrubby because they let those scrubby tactics beat them?
I like to spam PK Fire when the other player is playing ridiculously predictable. Why should I work at beating this guy when they're

Like I've said before, why would I bother doing anything that takes effort when the other opponent is so bad that spamming is literally all it takes. And I won't even touch the topic of "cheap" characters because the meta game is way too young to call anyone cheap.

Go to a tournament and try spamming. It doesn't work.
I lost to a Sonic player who all he did was Down B. Constant spin dashing. This guy was ranked the #5 guy in our area and I live in San Diego, a huge city with a vibrant Smash scene.
How was that possible? Was it really that cheap?

No, it wasn't.
Because when I saw the guy who knocked him out of the tournament,
1. He didn't pull that Spin Dash spam stuff because when he tried it once, he got countered hard.
2. I could see how the guy who beat him's play style was different from mine.

In other words, he spamming Down B because that's all it took to beat me, but when he played a more skilled opponent, he couldn't do that.

Cheap does not equal lazy. It just means the other player sucks enough to fall for such tactics.
It's as lazy as jogging in a 100 m race when your opponent has no legs.
Why would you exert yourself when you don't have to?

Dude, don't spam your stupid pk fire. I see you on the "Why am I banned, must've been too good" boards and I can tell you why, you play Ness, spam pk fire against opponents that arent worth anything to you and, i can only assume, utilize a healthy amount of teabagging as well.
If you're so good, why don't you play people seriously online? You don't need to spam, troll or annoy your opponents because they're predictable. Some of us play online to get better at the game, not pk fired to hell. and dont pull any of that "gitgud lel" stuff either.

Play the game seriously. Play like you're in the same room as your opponent. Respect your opponent and they'll respect you.

 

[pollo20x6]

Dude, don't spam your stupid pk fire. I see you on the "Why am I banned, must've been too good" boards and I can tell you why, you play Ness, spam pk fire against opponents that arent worth anything to you and, i can only assume, utilize a healthy amount of teabagging as well.
If you're so good, why don't you play people seriously online? You don't need to spam, troll or annoy your opponents because they're predictable. Some of us play online to get better at the game, not pk fired to hell. and dont pull any of that "gitgud lel" stuff either.

Play the game seriously. Play like you're in the same room as your opponent. Respect your opponent and they'll respect you.

You're right. How selfish of me. Let's do all the things that you wanna do.
I'll do what I want.

And no, I don't teabag. Don't assume.

Who said I'm good?
I just said, if someone else is playing predictably that I can almost always tell what they're going to do and how to trap them in an extremely laggy, but rewarding move, of course I'll do it.

And what am I, their coach?
If they wanna play online to get better, go ahead, but I'm not gonna tone down my style when I encounter someone that isn't on my level.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if they're playing in a manner that they're so easy to read that I'll land the PK Fire practically every time, I'm sorry I wanna get the fight over with quicker so I can play against someone who doesn't fall for such easy tricks; a better player.

If anything, maybe they'll learn how to get around it.
Or maybe they'll cry about how wins aren't being handed to them rather than accepting that maybe they're not that good at getting around scrubby strategies.

And played countless times around Ness' who PK Fire spam.
Given victories. Everytime. It's such an easy move to punish when you know they're gonna use it.
Short hop -> Nair.
Counters PK Fire. Every. Single. Time.

 

[Dr. Dobis]

You're right. How selfish of me. Let's do all the things that you wanna do.
I'll do what I want.

And no, I don't teabag. Don't assume.

Who said I'm good?
I just said, if someone else is playing predictably that I can almost always tell what they're going to do and how to trap them in an extremely laggy, but rewarding move, of course I'll do it.

And what am I, their coach?
If they wanna play online to get better, go ahead, but I'm not gonna tone down my style when I encounter someone that isn't on my level.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if they're playing in a manner that they're so easy to read that I'll land the PK Fire practically every time, I'm sorry I wanna get the fight over with quicker so I can play against someone who doesn't fall for such easy tricks; a better player.

If anything, maybe they'll learn how to get around it.
Or maybe they'll cry about how wins aren't being handed to them rather than accepting that maybe they're not that good at getting around scrubby strategies.

And played countless times around Ness' who PK Fire spam.
Given victories. Everytime. It's such an easy move to punish when you know they're gonna use it.
Short hop -> Nair.
Counters PK Fire. Every. Single. Time.

Well, to each his own. If you're truly satisfied playing like that, then more power to ya.

 

[Dre89]

Guys, standing at an edge and gimping little mac players is cheap. Its easy, requires no skill, and its almost certain victory. I do this all the time to little mac and even I admit its f*cking cheap. My friends like playing little mac, and I avoid resorting to cheap methods, so I never do this when playing my my buds. I'd rather fight them normally.

That is literally the weakness the character was designed to have. That's how he's balanced. If some rule was implemented in FG that prevented edge guarding him, then his ground game would get a massive nerf because he'd be insanely broken otherwise.

Picking Little Mac in an environment where edge guarding is disallowed is like the cheapest thing you can do in this game. Bad players call anything they can't beat cheap, but that would genuinely be cheap because Mac's extreme strengths would no longer be balanced out by his extreme weakness.

 

[Nexin]

One thing that I'd like to mention about one of the earlier arguments is that there are key differences between ST Akuma and Brawl Meta Knight so comparing them isn't that great.

First, ST Akuma was intentionally made to be broken because he was designed to be a secret SNK style boss in the single player mode of the game and he was made playable as an easter egg while Brawl Meta Knight was the result of very poor balance decisions. Secondly, while Meta Knight's ban was very controversial, Akuma's ban wasn't as most competitive players agreed that the game would be much better at top level for both players and spectators if he just wasn't playable. Honestly, Old Sagat and Meta Knight would be a better comparison.

Anyways, I don't like the way this thread is going so I'm not going to mention which side I agreed with or add much else here. Just keep in mind that while the differences I mentioned may seem minor, they are actually a big deal.

 

[kendikong]

That is literally the weakness the character was designed to have. That's how he's balanced. If some rule was implemented in FG that prevented edge guarding him, then his ground game would get a massive nerf because he'd be insanely broken otherwise.

Picking Little Mac in an environment where edge guarding is disallowed is like the cheapest thing you can do in this game. Bad players call anything they can't beat cheap, but that would genuinely be cheap because Mac's extreme strengths would no longer be balanced out by his extreme weakness.

Like ive been saying in this whole thread, it doesnt matter if cheap moves are fair game, I'm not trying to downplay using cheap moves to win. I'm just saying, if its easy and op, its cheap by definition

 

[pollo20x6]

Like ive been saying in this whole thread, it doesnt matter if cheap moves are fair game, I'm not trying to downplay using cheap moves to win. I'm just saying, if its easy and op, its cheap by definition

And that's the problem. Who among us is to say what's easy or op?
Unless we're the best in the world and have reached the pinnacle of what Smash 4 allows us to achieve, we can't call something easy or op because so long as we're not the best, there's always room to improve.

Because maybe something isn't easy or op. Maybe we just suck so much it seems like an easy or op move/strategy when in reality, more skill would render it a suicide strategy. Like PK Fire spamming. Against an inexperienced player, it's an OP tactic. Against a skilled player and it's a free win for them.

 

[kendikong]

And that's the problem. Who among us is to say what's easy or op?
Unless we're the best in the world and have reached the pinnacle of what Smash 4 allows us to achieve, we can't call something easy or op because so long as we're not the best, there's always room to improve.

Because maybe something isn't easy or op. Maybe we just suck so much it seems like an easy or op move/strategy when in reality, more skill would render it a suicide strategy. Like PK Fire spamming. Against an inexperienced player, it's an OP tactic. Against a skilled player and it's a free win for them.

And thats why i think its subjective what is cheap what isnt

 

[Playerhater]

There definitely is cheapness in Smash, even without items. Here's a scenario; you're playing Little Mac on For Glory, and you're opponent, instead of actually fighting you, stands by the ledge in a bid to try and gimp you. And will not leave that spot until you approach him, letting him gimp you. This is especially awful with Ness' B-Throw and F-Air shenanigans. This kind of **** isn't fun for me, it pisses me off because I'm stuck deciding if I should just sit around and hope he gives up on trying to bait the gimp or go in and just get gimped by back throws and aerials. That is so goddamn cheap it's not even funny!

You shouldn't rely on one-trick gimmicks to win against characters, because that's not proof you were better than them, just that you were so desparate to win that you deliberately tried to make me approach you just so you could get a gimp. It's not fun for the Mac, because they'll know you are baiting for a gimp and won't approach. An ego should never sink so low that they need to resort to baiting gimps out of Little Mac players; that's not just disrespectul, it's insulting. It's like they're saying that all they want to do is beat you just to erect their e-penis a little. It's not fun, it's not respectful and it sure as hell isn't fair.

You do realize that you are the one camping in the center of the stage, right? That's what all Libble Max do. Don't be scared homey.

Ness players are the ones I like to encounter. They usually never camp, their PK fire is not even useful for camping. Little Macs stay in the center of the stage against EVERY character. The only good Little Mac players that I fought were the ones that weren't scared to move to the ledges and knew how to deal with it.

 

[pollo20x6]

And thats why i think its subjective what is cheap what isnt

And that's why I'm saying that instead of complaining, players should instead find out if something is objectively cheap by playing the game instead of crying on the internet.

I've seen people cry about Ness, discover how to beat him, and then they main him.
Like a tween going through their first break up. They'll cry and cry, meanwhile everyone knows they'll get over it yet they insist they never will...and then they do.

It's the same with Smash. Cry and cry and then they get over it.

 

[Playerhater]

The only players who complain about PK fire are the ones who love to turtle up and counter. Just jump over it, don't be scared homey.

 

[MalcolmFlex]

Get good and find a way around it.
I have literally no problems with Ness because I main him and know his weaknesses.
Are you the best player in the world?
If not, then it's quite possible you just don't know how to deal with those tactics, therefore of course the other player will do them if you keep falling for it.


That's a bad example for Ness because 2v2 FG doesn't have friendly fire on. It's much easier to land that stuff when friendly fire is off..

Anything is easy to land; it just depends who you're playing lol. Obviously if I play high-tier tournament players, they can counter any of my tactics, simply because they are better. But I would definitely consider myself an accomplished player, without a doubt. My point was is that Ness has OP attacks that you can use against lesser talented players, though those SAME tactics won't work against higher tier players. Obviously you would switch up the strategy in that scenario. But to low tier players, things CAN be considered cheap; but against high-tier players, these things are null and void.

 

[Playerhater]

That's not always true.
For example, Akuma was in Super Street Fighter 2 and he was cheap as heck. Every major tournament consisted of Akuma mirror matches. He was cheap.

Same with Meta Knight.
That's why he was banned.

It basically comes down to developers beijg capable of making mistakes.

However, it takes time for cheap tactics to be brought to light.
Someone winning 1 tournament with Akuma isn't strange.
Akumas winning every tournament? Now that's a red flag of cheapness.

And bringing it back to Smash, when have we ever seen Ness win a major tournament spamming PK Fire? Never. When have we ever seen anyone win any major tournament spamming? None so far.
Even with Meta Knight in Brawl, spamming wasn't done because it leaves you open.

Does Smash 4 have any cheap elements? No one can say. It's too soon. Is it possible? Maybe. An exploitable glitch. A overseen combo. Anything's possible.
Wait a couple years, people!
Learn the matchups, then whine.

There is a big difference between tournaments and regular players and between cheap and overpowered. You won't find button mashers at tournaments. I remember players considered being cheap by spamming fireballs during the Street Fighter 2 era. But you couldn't pull that off in real life. You would never rely on such strategies with your friends right next to you. And in an arcade you might get punched in the face for doing that. It didn't matter if you won or not. Of course, that changed with online play(where every little kid can be disrespectful without facing any consequences) and big money tournaments.

I just fought a dude who picked Ike, Robin. Libble Mac, Ganondorf and Dedede in a row. I thought he would pick Charizard next, but he stuck with Dedede because he beat me one time because I moved into his trip move.

And that's basically what it is. I'm pretty sure that everybody who isn't elite lost a few matches to characters like Dedede and Charizard to players that are lesser skilled. It's never that the other player is beating you by the punch, getting good reads or impressive combos. You just happen to mistime a move and the other gets lucky. You basically lose to yourself, that's what makes it cheap.
With top level players, cheapness and luck become less relevant.

 

[kendikong]

There is a big difference between tournaments and regular players and between cheap and overpowered. You won't find button mashers at tournaments.

Actually, I am just reminded of the custom smash tournaments with a lot of match wins going to mindless DK cyclone up b spam.

 

[Dre89]

There is a big difference between tournaments and regular players and between cheap and overpowered. You won't find button mashers at tournaments. I remember players considered being cheap by spamming fireballs during the Street Fighter 2 era. But you couldn't pull that off in real life. You would never rely on such strategies with your friends right next to you. And in an arcade you might get punched in the face for doing that. It didn't matter if you won or not. Of course, that changed with online play(where every little kid can be disrespectful without facing any consequences) and big money tournaments.

I just fought a dude who picked Ike, Robin. Libble Mac, Ganondorf and Dedede in a row. I thought he would pick Charizard next, but he stuck with Dedede because he beat me one time because I moved into his trip move.

And that's basically what it is. I'm pretty sure that everybody who isn't elite lost a few matches to characters like Dedede and Charizard to players that are lesser skilled. It's never that the other player is beating you by the punch, getting good reads or impressive combos. You just happen to mistime a move and the other gets lucky. You basically lose to yourself, that's what makes it cheap.
With top level players, cheapness and luck become less relevant.

You shouldn't be losing to bad Charizards even on FG. D3 I can understand because lag can ruin your ability to powershield/reflect gordos properly. But Zard doesn't have anything he can abuse in lag if you just play defensively.

Seriously, scrubs who spam moves are easily countered by learning to just sit there and play reactively to what they do. The other key point is to walk instead of run. Walking is OP against bad players because you have more options available to react and punish them, and your shield comes up quicker than if you were dashing.

 

[Playerhater]

Actually, I am just reminded of the custom smash tournaments with a lot of match wins going to mindless DK cyclone up b spam.

I'm talking about real life tournaments, not little online tourneys.

You shouldn't be losing to bad Charizards even on FG. D3 I can understand because lag can ruin your ability to powershield/reflect gordos properly. But Zard doesn't have anything he can abuse in lag if you just play defensively.

Seriously, scrubs who spam moves are easily countered by learning to just sit there and play reactively to what they do. The other key point is to walk instead of run. Walking is OP against bad players because you have more options available to react and punish them, and your shield comes up quicker than if you were dashing.

Wow, you totally missed the point.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Easy-mode characters. Characters that require barely any (if any) practice or dedication to effectively use. They're practically the textbook definition of "cheap."

 

[pollo20x6]

Easy-mode characters. Characters that require barely any (if any) practice or dedication to effectively use. They're practically the textbook definition of "cheap."

The problem with this thought process is that salty players use it as a defense mechanism.
Like, when I win as Ness, some people say Ness is cheese, like as an excuse for losing.
Ok, I thought, then why not just pick a top tier character like Sheikor Diddy who are considered to be better than Ness?

And then some people have said to me "I don't pick cheap characters".
But then it's like, if you're racing a Ferrari, don't drive up in your mom's minivan and then complain.

Cuz I'm not arguing that there aren't easy characters to pick up and play. Rosalina, Diddy, Ness, etc.
ZeRo himself has said that Peach is a potential top tier, but playing her would be like playing competitive smash on high difficult since she's hard to master.

So yes, there are easy to play characters, but calling them cheap only serves to create more butthurt losers who pin their losses on the fact that they were playing an uphill battle.

Instead of crying about it, they should practice or main someone else.
Expecting others to pick characters that THEY deem acceptable is ridiculous and childish.

 

[kendikong]

I'm talking about real life tournaments, not little online tourneys.

sigh* facepalm*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOIEqweIycg

Hes just one of many DK Up B spammers, and he made it to the finals

 

[pollo20x6]

sigh* facepalm*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOIEqweIycg

Hes just one of many DK Up B spammers, and he made it to the finals

He didn't even win with DK, meaning that it can be beaten, therefore isn't cheap.

And it didn't even look like mindless spamming. It looked like he was using it at appropriate times.
To get out of combos, to punish an aggressive Luigi, etc.

Is it an OP custom? Does it have priority over everything? Is it unbalanced?

One set doesn't prove a whole lot. If every player starts playing like this DK and winning major tournaments, then we have a problem. Until then, the guy may have just been playing smart and using Up B at appropriate times, which perhaps the Luigi's playstyle offered a lot of.
As a speculated low tier, maybe this luigi didn't know how to approach this custom DK; not enough practice beforehand.

The meta, especially with customs, is very, very young.
Too early to act as if spamming is cheap.

 

[SuperScope]

If it hasn't been said, I would argue Ness back throw is cheap. Only because of how good and important grabs are in smash4. There's nothing you can really do about it. It's pretty much either you barley live or just die.

 

[pollo20x6]

I just got done playing a hardcore camping Kirby. Really hard to play aggressive. Instead of complaing about how "cheap camping Kirbys are spamming their Up Bs and Nairs", I changed my approach, experimented different ways of playing, and after losing 5 times, I started winning.
That's how I learned how to get over PK Fire spam. That's how I learned how to get over camping/spamming Mega Mans. You work at it. You don't see it as cheap. You see it as a legitimate strategy that you need to get over.

Because writing something off as cheap and you've already brought down the chances of ever beating it.

 

[FallenHero]

One good example of something that is cheap was chain grabs with Ice Climbers in Melee and Luigi's d throw combos in this game. Sure you can avoid it by not getting grabbed, but they are rewarded greatly for just getting one grab on you.

 

[Muddyk]

i think the question was a little vague in that some of the conversations i'm seeing aren't about cheapness in Sm4sh but in ALL competitive games. Maybe a rewording is in order, or maybe you meant to word it this way?

Anywho, i don't think Sm4sh has any cheapness in it at this point. All the busted stuff has been removed and characters have been reworked and rebalanced. Sure luigi's auto kill confirms are annoying AF but he has obvious glaring flaws as well so he's not a perfect character. Sure shiek has really good buttons and can control neutral and offstage pretty easily but i wouldn't call her cheap either.
Also i hate this word SPAMMING. There are options against projectiles stop acting like there's nothing you can do about them. Like what do you expect Link or Tink to do against C.Falcon or any good rushdown charater? Guess we should fight Man2Man like REAL MEN 4 GLORY!!!!1111! Or maybe Duck hunt should stop hiding behind his projectiles and use his AMAZING TILTS instead? Like seriously if you can't handle "spam" play Rosalina or a character that has projectiles of their own and stop whining.

Camping...this isn't cheap at all? Sure it's annoying when your opponent won't approach/try to move at all, but it's not like their strategy is infallible. You can usually beat these people by being patient and WALKING TOWARDS THEM or some other methods but when people expect you to fight the speedy characters who just want you to face their lighting fast attacks up close without any interruption is kinda stupid. or if you expect everyone to conform to a certain way of playing, even with different characters that's kinda dumb too.

Using certain characters. I admit seeing ZSS/Shiek/diddy/luigi all the time is annoying, even downright infuriating, but cheap? No. Let's use Rosa vs the Onett boiz as an example. Sure this counterpick is 100-0 for rosalina but realistically i don't think every character is capable of beating every character. That would require every character to be OP ala PM (i love this game so no hate plz but you have to admit everyone is kinda busted lol) which is sorta a hard thing to do in a game with this fighting style.

Things i would say are cheap are gone thanks to patching such as 80% Hoo Hah kills and pre patch shiek and greninja(what was busted about greninja though i never saw/used him before the nerf).

Soz for TL:DR just thought i'd address all the points. I don't find anything cheap atm. Just minor annoyances. If i can't beat it, i 'll just work harder or keep playing until i can.

 

[Dre89]

Anyone who complains about characters like Toon Link or Megaman camping with projectiles is a really bad player and does not understand character design at all

 

[kendikong]

He didn't even win with DK, meaning that it can be beaten, therefore isn't cheap.

And it didn't even look like mindless spamming. It looked like he was using it at appropriate times.
To get out of combos, to punish an aggressive Luigi, etc.

Is it an OP custom? Does it have priority over everything? Is it unbalanced?

One set doesn't prove a whole lot. If every player starts playing like this DK and winning major tournaments, then we have a problem. Until then, the guy may have just been playing smart and using Up B at appropriate times, which perhaps the Luigi's playstyle offered a lot of.
As a speculated low tier, maybe this luigi didn't know how to approach this custom DK; not enough practice beforehand.

The meta, especially with customs, is very, very young.
Too early to act as if spamming is cheap.

My point was that spammers in tournaments exist. The guy said they didn't, so I'm showing an example. And his spamming strategy was good enough to land him in finals.

Also, we're not stupid, the meta doesnt need to be super developed to know that there are certain moves that are too strong, and moves that just suck.

Also, a good example of a cheap, op tactic is Pikachu + G&W bucket strategy in team tournaments. So undoubtedly cheap and op, that it was banned in tournaments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg
"Yea, that's not cheap at all" lol