Uses of Ganon's new neutral B

[Musicians-in-hospitals]

I was just curious what uses people have found with Ganon's float/cape so far. I find the float to be really useful for staling when recovering and getting some extra distance back to the stage. As for the cape, I honestly haven't been trying to utilize it. What have you guys found them useful for?

 

[Russy]

I've found that it's extremely good for setting up edgeguards. For example, RAR float -> bair/uair/dair and you still have your jump + up/side-b to get back to stage

 

[Anonistry]

Unfortunately DMV is looking to be, well... farcical. Yeah, I'll just come out swinging on it. I tend to take a very dim view of anti-projectile moves that don't really deal with the projectiles that cause trouble. Fortunately the new vectors towards approach hover allows for will help with that anyways, so I guess it is going to be just there, kind of like old nB, with the added twist that you can attempt to reverse a Chargeball (any of those superprojectiles that need to be charged for) for extra swag.

Hover... basically its two biggest functions will be a) edge game is going to be that much better. We already have reports on it. But even bigger in my opinion is b) It will help with the risk of his reads. I mean, not even joking, there will likely be some scenarios where he can now actually back out of a bad decision. I mean seriously, the Dorf is, at heart, a character who is trying to boil everything down to reads and punishes. Either he guesses right and you'll be lucky if you don't basically get set to half your "life" left in terms of remaining stagetime, or he guesses wrong and he pretty much is wide open. But now, that hover very well might allow for some of those decisiosn to NOT be wide open, and that will be huge. Not too much by the looks of it, which is good because I think this aspect of Dorf is his most fair weakness, but the mindgames, new reads, and safety of his more low to medium reward reads is going to be what really could propel him to a whole new tier level. Plus, again, it is enough for less predictable and better approach vectors against zoning, which makes up for... the above.

 

[IcyLight]

I agree with what Anonistry says.

His new neutral B allows him to mix up his tech chases (or recover in a failed read as a last case scenario).

It also allows him to have a better edge-guarding game and recovery. I like to use the float when I am at the top corner of the screen to move closer to the stage before I use down-b to regain jumps.

The potential to change his on-stage game with float is there, but his float is pretty slow and throwing it out randomly puts you in a bad spot. I use mine a few times a match at most (on stage), just to confuse my opponent. I find it is much more successful when I don't use it for a stock or 2, and then throw it in there for a super hard punish.

His projectile reflection utility is kinda meh. The timing is strict and it's not spammable. It also can't be used in the air. I find myself being much more pro-active and keeping momentum focusing more on power shields to reflect because it keeps me moving. I would only use the cape to reflect as a mixup once in a while or against strong projectiles (like Samus charge blast or snakes tranquilizer).

 

[Anonistry]

The dumbest part about reflect is that it NEEDS to hit the quick-but-still-pushes projectiles, otherwise it is pointless. Why? Dorf actually has a pretty decent time clanking slower projectiles. Comes with being Mr. My Jab is Your Tilt. And the swag from reflecting superprojectiles is... meh. Even Dorf can avoid those more or less.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's funny that the float, a change I thought would be okay but not revolutionary, overtook the concept of a ****ing projectile reflector on a character like GANONDORF. Just makes me happy that float turned out to be pretty based.

 

[ElPanandero]

Yea I haven't found the cape useful for anything except it discourages spammers theoretically, i.e. people have spammed less because they know he has a reflector, I expect this to subside as it develops and people learn how situational it is.

As for the float, I find it especially useful for mindgame baits, I play a lot in the air, and I'll jump at my opponent, float right before they fair/nair/etc me, then fast fall into a fair for an easy hit. It basically creates easy punishes if you use it sparingly.

 

[Anonistry]

Sounds about right really. Wouldn't mind them going back to the drawing board... again... on nB. Its not even that it overtook it, it is that IT IS OVERTAKING IT AT ITS OWN DAMN FLIPPIN' PURPOSE. Yeah.

Somehow I feel like I want Ganondorf to have a legit reversal move. So then even on defense he relies on reads and do-or-die tactics. Instead of kind of not having one >.>

 

[Shell]

Is a 16 frame reflect window (fr3-18) really that narrow?

Also if you land during it you go into Heavy land lag (5 frames). So if you perform it close to the ground you can keep his volley-advancement both pretty mobile and safe fyi. Also the speed at which you can perform the double nB input tap dictates how quickly you can get the reflect out in the air, so there's a bit of a tech skill component there as well.

Of course, it is situational, yes, but I think a few of you might have a little optimization to do before dismissing it.

 

[Anonistry]

Of course, it is situational, yes...

Then it sucks. I am sorry, and I realize how hardline and on the face of it, absurd, it sounds, but trust me from EVERY SINGLE FAILED ANTI-PROJECTILE MOVE I HAVE EVER DEALT WITH has colored my impression, it is true. It CAN'T be "situational", because it always, in turn, actually never covers the last necessary situation: the one where the character inevitably can't answer easy projectile zoning. Imagine there are different ways to zone: projectiles, good normals, spacing, reversal, et al. Thing is, anyone who has ever had an anti-projectile skill tends to be overly vulnerable to projectiles to the point "spamming" is far too valid a tactic considering its generally considered the anti-thesis of skilled zoning play. Problem is, that spamming only needs to work enough to still hit the opponent some of the time, due to the danger of damage and hitstun. Any anti-projectile move that doesn't cover ALL of it is basically not even a half-answer: it gets backed into a non-answer due to the interplay.

You want a good anti-projectile move? Growler Field from Azrael in Blazblue. I know its been brought up before for Dorf, and thats because IT ACTUALLY WORKS. Why? So long as it is up, a projectile gets absorbed. And its second feature, storing a shot and converting it to a one-time projectile for Azrael, is good because it beats just about any other projectile in speed and outright kills them, not even "clanking". Trust me when I say this doesn't keep Azrael from being zoned, as there are the other aspects and clever projectile usage. Rather, it punishes the "camping" style of zoning that most people pull their hair out over.

Admittedly, the idea of riding forward on a hover-reflect DOES sound intriguing, but I can say that even moving forward anti-projectile moves, often derived from either the Zangief classics the Banishing Flat or Spinning Lariat, tend to fail because of recovery. And those are in games where the speed of projectile and quantity on screen is nothing like it can be in Smash.

Don't forget, Dorf doesn't actually much problem with some of the heavier but slower projectiles. He is as capable as anyone as avoiding a misplaced chargeball, and his wizkick and other attacks can get around "medium" projectiles fairly well through clanking. So either this needs to answer things like the falco laser which he currently can't, or it adds exactly as much as old nB did to his toolset.

EDIT: AND NOW, let me clarify: I will eat my words and then some if I am wrong. This is only because I have been on the short end of the stick in other games where the heavy can be camped enough that I am fairly familiar with the phenomenon, but that doesn't mean this can't be different. If you really think that we can learn to use it so it becomes a legit answer to the projectiles we have problems with, then I will try to withhold judgment till someone with for more ability than I can say one way or another. Its just... I've seen this before, and it looks awfully similar so far, not just as being used now, but including some of the theoretical usage.

 

[Ogopogo]

Float is really neat for edgeguarding and for mixing up how you get back to the stage from the ledge.

 

[Anonistry]

Float is really neat for edgeguarding and for mixing up how you get back to the stage from the ledge.

Oh yeah, its just a A-grade buff to edge game all around. Especially if you have a jump still in store, then like you said you have quite a few new approach vectors of a single moment that the opponent has to guess on.

 

[RelaxAlax]

The DMV is great ...

... its the perfect jab followup

(actually I think its more disrespect hitting someone with that the Warlock Punch)

 

[Anonistry]

The DMV is great ...

... its the perfect jab followup

(actually I think its more disrespect hitting someone with that the Warlock Punch)

It doesn't feel like it combos to me, but then again I didn't try too hard with it.

Funny thing is, it IS pretty quick and has decent reach; not ftilt good but seriously about twice that of jab. If you could actually DO anything off of it, I wouldn't be surprised if its use as a poke and combo extender would make it much more memorable.

Suddenly, I don't know why, but I kind of want to see it be armored. Then you'd just chug along and fling a cape that goes nowhere but can't really be stopped either. Yes, that can be filed as a quirky thing I don't think is a good idea but must see anyways. >.>

 

[RelaxAlax]

I know there's a few times where I've jabbed and then did the cape. I think it works at low percents, gotta try again later.

 

[Anonistry]

I seriously can't even come close to doing cape until like twice the duration of jab. Maybe I am failing at cancelling somehow...

EDIT: Also, who have you tried it on?

 

[Cpt.]

The levitate is very good for juggling and recovery mix up (but does have downsides for recovering).

Is a 16 frame reflect window (fr3-18) really that narrow?

Also if you land during it you go into Heavy land lag (5 frames). So if you perform it close to the ground you can keep his volley-advancement both pretty mobile and safe fyi. Also the speed at which you can perform the double nB input tap dictates how quickly you can get the reflect out in the air, so there's a bit of a tech skill component there as well.

Of course, it is situational, yes, but I think a few of you might have a little optimization to do before dismissing it.

It's pretty narrow since my friend almost thought that there was a glitch since he could reflect Mario's pill (which to be fair was just him being bad). Still why does Mario's reflector get to last the whole animation and flip people while Ganondorf's lasts only 1/4 of a second? It just doesn't make sense.

I also think that you should be able to move up with his levitate since Mewtwo can. Plus it drops you slightly before you can up B.

 

[CORY]

tl;dr "i mad."

how often does any reflect move stop fast projectiles, like falco's laser, from making that character do what they were doing? mario's cape doesn't stop falco's approach just by reflecting the laser. he still runs the risk of getting dair or nair'd by falco jumping in. spacey shines don't stop falco from lasering unless they just hold it, at which point falco can time his lasers to go around the reflects and punish the reflector while they're in their lag animations. the best you get is disrupting his flow a little bit if he's intent on just camping the crap out of you.

this is where the float actually works, though. how does peach deal with campy falco's or mario's? get that float action going on over the projectiles. no character with a projectile reflect uses the reflect purely for that. their main use is typically to turn around power projectiles (charge shots, et al...), then to help slow down the flow of projectile campers (falco, mario, as well as the links of the world) while letting you get closer little by little (which this also helps with). but all of the projectile reflectors live and die by their utility. psychic kids heal, gnw gets a really scary damaging attack, spacies get stupid combo and pressure tools, mario can turn around characters and attacks, we get to float.

float over the projectiles, mix up the float timing with your double jump and just using it as a reflect. mix it up with powershielding as you dash forward. even spacies have to do that (though it's easier due to their speed/size, admittedly), they can't just depend on shines to solve their projectile problems.

in fact, i'd go so far as to say think of the move as primarily the float, with a reflector attached to it. i guess shell will talk more about if that's how it was planned in the dev blogpost later, but that's how i think of the move, anyway. i just use it to swat back really obvious strong projectiles and float my way over most everything else.

Is a 16 frame reflect window (fr3-18) really that narrow?

Also if you land during it you go into Heavy land lag (5 frames). So if you perform it close to the ground you can keep his volley-advancement both pretty mobile and safe fyi. Also the speed at which you can perform the double nB input tap dictates how quickly you can get the reflect out in the air, so there's a bit of a tech skill component there as well.

Of course, it is situational, yes, but I think a few of you might have a little optimization to do before dismissing it.

so it starts reflecting f3? does the hit also come out that fast? that's really awesome : o is this true for both air and ground? and how big is the... "reflect bubble", as it were? fully body or only on the arc in front of him or something?

 

[Shell]

Yes, I believe the grounded version reflects frame 3 as well. The volley's smack hitbox waits until he's actually swinging his arm and cape, frames 13-16. The reflect collision matches his visual cape length pretty closely.

As you can imagine I've been busy answering questions across the board so I haven't had time to get the Dead Man's Drift / Volley post together yet but I still plan to get that done.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Welp, its a hard move to do. Sometimes you wanna throw it out and are either not standing still or doing something else so when you do do it, it's late.

I want to put it to use but I fear it will be very VERY situational and trumped by either power-shielding, jabbing or throwing out an f-tilt.

 

[CORY]

Yes, I believe the grounded version reflects frame 3 as well. The volley's smack hitbox waits until he's actually swinging his arm and cape, frames 13-16. The reflect collision matches his visual cape length pretty closely.

As you can imagine I've been busy answering questions across the board so I haven't had time to get the Dead Man's Drift / Volley post together yet but I still plan to get that done.

totally appreciated, though! thanks for the input and answers!

 

[Anonistry]

The best you get is disrupting his flow a little bit if he's intent on just camping the crap out of you.

Which is my point more or less, I don't really think of them as useful tools in the first place. If it isn't doing this, then I would argue they ALL are not doing their job.

Like I said, the original anti-projectile move, the Banishing Flat, was because the character, Zangief, was uniquely susceptible to "camping" style zoning, which even at the time it was kind of clear that camping was a form of zoning that would cause more harm than good. Its not so much that it is "objectively" worse than other kinds of camping or anything. But it DOES create a kind of agitation that other kinds of zoning, particular the more read and or careful placement styles, lack. And like you suggested, camping is certainly not the only way to zone or perform a spacie has by any means. So I guess I am arguing, more or less, that for the sluggish characters particularly susceptible to camping, like Ganondorf, there should be no regrets that they introduced a move that effective play can counter camping completely. Heck, it fits too. Ganondorf is all about boiling it down to reads and decisions, creating both risk and reward for both himself and the opponent.

I realize that I come off very strong over this, but it was just nice to think that we finally wouldn't have a nB that didn't really fill any niche. Currently however, the DMV really only can do reflects since it has little damage and no comboability, and yet hover is proving a much better anti-camping tool, leaving it back in that place once more. Like you said, hover in general is easily becoming the "main" use of nB, and it is totally worth it. If anything, letting us somehow make use of float on the ground would be cooler.

I definitely would love to see a writeup on DMV though! It'd be awesome to see the PMDT's thoughts on it and where they were going with it. I may or may not agree or change my mind on it, but at this point its probably a difference of opinion on how effective it should be, so I'll just put that aside for some awesome brain-picking.

 

[CORY]

banishing flat style moves are necessary in street fighter because of the severe lack of movement options, by the game's design. smash has a lot more freedom, even for someone like ganon, with his size and speed. he doesn't need something that just completely nullifies all types of projectile zoning (the closest to that would be shine, rather ironically.... and that can be punished if they misuse it on a projectile covered approach. unless it was changed in a patch and i forgot...).

as for grounded utility: dmv also jab resets : p the only thing that's not amazing about that is that it's very strict timing (basically you have to side-b, then call their not teching and mash b for grounded dmv to slap into a reset) unless you're doing it to someone with a fat hitbox on the ground like bowser. ok, it's probably not amazing, but i'm way hype for it since i know a lot of people who's response to flame choke setups is to just lie there and wait for ganon to move then go away from him because he can't really handle that well : p

 

[Anonistry]

I really need to find out how to make this dmv and jab stuff work together; and yeah, I kind of was wondering about dmv and side-b, only thing is I definitely noticed what you meant about strict timing, or at least that you need a fat hitbox to do it leniently; I was just trying it out on a luigi, for example, and it would just clean miss him completely. I am guessing you need to wait for that point where they just start getting back up from a not-tech, and thus have something to hit but no time to do anything? Either way, if you can learn to do that, and act on it, then yeah dmv could probably find some odd uses from its relative quickness and recovery (I swear, I am just waiting for someone to find some awesome way to act out of it and become some incredible poke tool.)

And yeah, I admit, Ganon's susceptibility to camping in the first place can get overblown from the start. I mean, he seriously actually can answer quite a few projectiles in the game now simply by clanking them. Really the biggest offender has to be Falco, and I suppose that is as much Falco's fault for a projectile that sometimes I think has too perfect a point between speed and push. Thinking on it, though, I would bet one character who really is answered by DMV fairly well would be Pit. Seems like the kind of range of speed and push that would be just right to dmv away at.

 

[CORY]

hrmmm... i'll have to go test on characters, then. i managed to flamechoke-maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaash b on a fox and it jab reset him while practicing and assumed that would mean it should work on pretty much anyone... probably try it out tomorrow before work.

 

[Anonistry]

Admittedly it could just be something frametight that I'd need practice on... or I'm tired. Gotta take a nap then stay awake for a while then go back to bed for the start of my 3rd shift. Damn them for my 1st shift Saturdays!

 

[teluoborg]

I had made a thread to discuss the changes of 3.5 but oh well.

This new neutral B is awesome simply because it does what it does : it gives you the choice to extend your air time for a variable period of time.
That doesn't look like much but I understood after playing him against human opponents yesterday : hover fixes all of Ganon's problems save his vertical grab range.

Recovery ? Check
Anti juggle ? **** wizkick, check
Offensive mixups ? Check


Seriously the reflector is just icing on the cake, and it's frame 3, is accompanied by a hitbox and has close to no ending lag. It's not icing anymore at this point, it's just a second cake on top of the first one.

Which makes me wonder : is two cakes too much ? Has science gone too far ?
I'll wait until next week's tournament before answering, but to me it seems like Ganon is going to be too good in 3.5. Litterally.

@ CORY : what do you mean by jab reset ?

 

[Anonistry]

So testing further, jab reset works fine. What happened was I vastly underestimated just when and what was considered a slope in metal cavern (derp). That said, it DID suggest DMV might have a somewhat tight vert hitbox. I suppose I could always try out the new debug mode and find out...

 

[CORY]

@ teluoborg http://www.ssbwiki.com/jab_reset
http://smashlounge.com/techniques?tech=Jab+Reset

ganon's jab will usually hit too hard to jab reset at higher percents and it also has a habit of just going over stuff. dmv can do the jab reset if you call them on just lying there and slap them right after a flamechoke (i think it works with grounded choke, as well). you can dmv characters with higher off the ground hitboxes, like bowser (maybe dk? haven't tested yet) at any point, but i think most of the cast you have to dmv on a read, not on reaction, or else dmv just goes over their body.

 

[Super_Primid]

SomethingI do is short hop instant u air then hover. You can then do DMV and land or if you are fighting link he can't grab you.(And if you see an up b coming just jump.

 

[Anonistry]

@ teluoborg http://www.ssbwiki.com/jab_reset
http://smashlounge.com/techniques?tech=Jab Reset

ganon's jab will usually hit too hard to jab reset at higher percents and it also has a habit of just going over stuff. dmv can do the jab reset if you call them on just lying there and slap them right after a flamechoke (i think it works with grounded choke, as well). you can dmv characters with higher off the ground hitboxes, like bowser (maybe dk? haven't tested yet) at any point, but i think most of the cast you have to dmv on a read, not on reaction, or else dmv just goes over their body.

I actually really need to try this out further, because I think I found ganon himself, at least, can be reaction-reset as soon as he hits the ground. It just seems like it would be an incredible option for anyone you can guarantee its follow-up on.

So... so much for pointless nB, eh?

 

[Sylnic]

Excuse me if anyone's mentioned this already, but I didn't see anyone talk about it yet:

Because Ganon's float is a Special move, you can b-turnaround it, B-reverse it, and wavebounce it.

B-turnaround is great for getting those reverse up-airs off stage, setting up for a back air, or just plain spinning in the air.

B-reverse can be used as a pseudo DJC, or at least that's what it reminds me of. You can be running away one moment, and then coming back in with a dair the next. This is great for catching people off guard.

And of course wave bouncing can be used for tricky retreating aerials. Fake someone out with a wavebounced float, and then go in when they make a move. Or, use it like a b-reverese, and come back in with a back air.

Any other cool things these could be used for?

 

[CORY]

gez has been hyping those uses since he could publicly talk about float : D

i've been learning b reverse timings in my spare time (the worst thing is flamechoking when you meant to b reverse a float and go in for an aerial : / ). i think this is probably the most universal tool you'll have: it helps in neutral by letting you use a ghetto rob side boost to weave with; it helps with tech chases in basically the same way (run away then immediately jump-b reverse float and aerial them from their roll); and it helps with pressure once you have momentum by letting you do tricky things and throwing them off (i was thinking of stuff like "run forward-b reverse back-cancel float and waveland back to the opponent to do [thing]".).

 

[Anonistry]

I don't care how impractical it is, using a snap hover to dodge a move or even just screw up an enemy approach and punish with wizkick is the ****.

 

[That-smash-guy-melody]

I've seen junebug b-reversal with the float. Seems like a pretty good option to me. I've also heard rumors of being able to jab reset witht the cape after a D-throw.

 

[That-smash-guy-melody]

Also compared to all his other buffs, I don't really think we should complain about his nB being situational. It's certainly more useful then warlock punch if you think about it.

 

[Anonistry]

After reading about the jab reset, for one, I totally am relenting on my previous tirade. Still am kinda weighed down by my salt at anti-projectiles in other games, but it definitely has some use now.

 

[Nefnoj]

I've only used the new attack productively once.... But I love it. The Warlock punch is, technically via taunt-hold, still in the game, and I tend to use that a lot more than the Dead Man's Volley. I think I was better with 3.2 Ganondorf than 3.5, but I still like 3.5 better because he's cleverly different, haha. Though I'm unsure on why they decided to make Ganondorf float using the special move instead of making it akin to Peach's float. Speed and direction is fine with me, but... The input seems weird.

 

[Stalled]

Probably did it so ganon couldn't float cancel, that would be sort of dumb

 

[Nefnoj]

Probably did it so ganon couldn't float cancel, that would be sort of dumb

Ooooh, that makes sense.