(Us) Balancing Brawl

[Veril]

I've already posted my feelings on hacking brawl: I approve of it but believe that gaining the approval (even if it is begrudging approval) of the majority of the smash community, both veteran and new is necessary for implementation.

Given that this is highly unlikely I don't expect a "balanced version" used at tournaments. However... if we could... "joy"

There is so much that could be improved, and I hope that someone tries.

Ignoring the technical side, there seem to be ways to balance individual characters.



So: how would we balance brawl (only character changes and no tripping, not hitstun) such that all characters are competition viable, if not equal (that's impossible).

1. NO NERFING! except for the removal of MKs IDC, which is banned anyway. Any type of direct nerfing would be unacceptable to players of a "top" character.

2. Removal of severe glitch issues, ie. the grab-release infinites (bias... yeah, but that is the idea here).

3. If a character had X move function better in melee, improve that move. Jigglypuff's rest is THE best example of this, although sheiks f-air works as well. This is not to say bring back overpowered moves or give everyone mach tornado.

4. Improving horrendous attributes: ie Link's recovery

5. General tweeking of moves, ideally in such a way as to discourage increased camping and other irritating playstyles (say from more powerful projectiles).

6. Avoid fundamental changes and try to keep a character's "feel" the same.

7. No stupid cr** like additional jumps or 500% damage. Don't write about that or cite it either or I will hate you forever.


What are your thought's? How could we balance the game (without nerfing anyone)?



Before flaming NOTE: this is not: should we do this at all; but how this would be done. There are other threads for debating whether or not to do this at all. PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS INTO THE HORRIBLE FLAME WAR I EXPECT


**** Stupid MK comments are discouraged. If I could I'd ban the word ban for this thread. ****

 

[Tristan_win]

How about instead of making the game balance we make everyone soo good that the game is broken.

I rather play a game with everyone overpowered then a game that tries to be balanced.

 

[Mmac]

Why not Nerfing? MetaKnight and Snake are in desperate need of a Nerf. MetaKnight has unnecessary Kill Power with his amazing speed and Comboing abilities, and do I really have to say anything about Snakes Tilts?

Also, removing Grab Releases is technically a Nerf also. Alternating it can heavily degrade characters such as Yoshi or Bowser. Simply, just alternating Lucas/Ness Release recovery time is probably the most simplest solution.

I did a "Mock" Patch awhile ago based on what I feel is balanced.

Falcon:
-Easier to Sweetspot with Fair
-Slight Knockback increase in Smashes
-Dair to always spike
-Nair increase with Damage and Knockback
-Slight increase in Damage for Tilts

Link:
-Stronger Spin Attack in terms of Knockback and Damage
-Increase height of his Spin Attack or Second Jump

Jigglypuff:
-Increase in damage and knockback to her Smashes
-More Knockback to Rest
-Opponents fall asleep longer from Sing
-Slight overall Air Attack increase

Sonic:
-Slight Damage increase to Tilts
-Damage and Knockback increase to Nair
-Knockback increase to Utilt (To something that can be a reasonable Killmove)
-Knockback increase to Homing Attack

Yoshi:
-Slight increase to Knockback and Damage to Fsmash and Usmash
-Increase knockback to Dsmash
-Fair to always spike
-Down Throw to do more damage (2%? Seriously?)

Samus:
-Increase in damage and knockback for Ftilt and Utilt
-Slight damage increase for Fair
-Slight damage increase for Bombs
-Slight knockback increase for Super Missiles

Ivysaur:
-Slight damage and knockback increase for Dsmash

Mario:
-Slight height increase for Super Jump Punch

Ness:
-Slight knockback increase for Dsmash
-Decreased Recovery time for a Ground Grab Break

Lucas:
-Bair to always spike
-Decreased Recovery time for a Ground Grab Break

Lucario:
-Slight Knockback decrease for Aura Sphere
-Slight knockback decrease for Dair

Marth:
-Slight knockback decrease for Fsmash and Dsmash

ROB:
-Slight increase in chargup time for Laser

Game & Watch:
-Decrease in knockback for Smashes
-Increase ending time for Dsmash

Dedede:
-Decrease in damage for Down throw
-Slight knockback decrease for Bair

Snake:
-Decrease in range for Ftilt and Utilt to a realistic amount
-Decrease in power and knockback for Jab Combo
-Decrease in power and knockback for Tilts
-Decrease in power for Nair and Dair

MetaKnight:
-Decrease in knockback for Dsmash
-Increase ending time for Dsmash
-Mach Tornado no longer gains strength when rising up
-Shuttle Loop in the air has decreased knockback

Thoughts

 

[Yuna]

1) Will never happen. Stop whining about it or go away.
2) Grab-release infinites are not glitches. Just because you don't like something does not mean it's a glitch. It's a badly programmed fatal flaw with some characters.
3) Are you nuts?! We'll rebalance the game but not nerfing anyone but just boosting everyone, especially if their moves were nerfed from Melee? Why in the world would we do this when we could just play Melee? Why make Brawl Melee 2.0 when Melee is right there on your desk?!

My thoughts? Don't do it. And if you're gonna advocate it, educate yourself on Smash in general and Brawl in particular before even suggesting we do this. You claim grab-release infinites are glitches. Only complete n00bs and Scrubs deem everything they don't like glitches.

 

[Wildfire393]

1) Will never happen. Stop whining about it or go away.
2) Grab-release infinites are not glitches. Just because you don't like something does not mean it's a glitch. It's a badly programmed fatal flaw with some characters.
3) Are you nuts?! We'll rebalance the game but not nerfing anyone but just boosting everyone, especially if their moves were nerfed from Melee? Why in the world would we do this when we could just play Melee? Why make Brawl Melee 2.0 when Melee is right there on your desk?!

My thoughts? Don't do it. And if you're gonna advocate it, educate yourself on Smash in general and Brawl in particular before even suggesting we do this. You claim grab-release infinites are glitches. Only complete n00bs and Scrubs deem everything they don't like glitches.

The definition of a "Glitch" is a programming oversight that causes unintended results. I'd say allowing infinite grabbing is an unintended result.

 

[brinboy789]

nah i don agree. the game is fine as it is. theres ups and downs to every char, so just leave it at that

 

[Yuna]

The definition of a "Glitch" is a programming oversight that causes unintended results. I'd say allowing infinite grabbing is an unintended result.

"In video games, a glitch is a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers. Glitches may include incorrectly displayed graphics, collision detection errors, game-freezing or crashes, sound issues, and others."

("Glitching" is the practice of a player exploiting faults in a video game's programming to acheive tasks normally impossible if the game's script runs as intended.)

By your definition, anything we do that Sakurai and his minions did not intend for us to do or at least do it the way we do it is a glitch, anything from shield canceled dash grabs, Bair-combos as Toon Link and any number of jillion combos we perform that I'm sure they didn't catch when programming the game.

Show me your source that defines a video game glitch as a programming oversight (and what does that even mean? Something they didn't find when beta-testing and thus didn't intend for us to use, not because it was a glitch they didn't intend to exist but because we're playing the game in a way they don't think we should be playing it?).

In fact, who are you to declare what Sakurai did and did not intend? And still, programming intent has nothing to do with if it's a glitch. A glitch is a programming error.

No, the grab-releases are not badly programmed physics and characters that the incompetent beta-testers didn't catch (or Sakurai just didn't care enough to fix it). They're not glitches just because we're using it in a way Sakurai didn't intend them to be used.

 

[Veril]

1) Will never happen. Stop whining about it or go away.
2) Grab-release infinites are not glitches. Just because you don't like something does not mean it's a glitch. It's a badly programmed fatal flaw with some characters.
3) Are you nuts?! We'll rebalance the game but not nerfing anyone but just boosting everyone, especially if their moves were nerfed from Melee? Why in the world would we do this when we could just play Melee? Why make Brawl Melee 2.0 when Melee is right there on your desk?!

My thoughts? Don't do it. And if you're gonna advocate it, educate yourself on Smash in general and Brawl in particular before even suggesting we do this. You claim grab-release infinites are glitches. Only complete n00bs and Scrubs deem everything they don't like glitches.

Are you done? This crap doesn't deserve a response. You go away.

Okay, I can't help myself.

Melee 2.0 is a stupid meme here and I hate it. I like brawl better than melee. Jigglypuff would benifit from a better rest and nobody would say its broken. Your whole glitch vs. programming error line is irrelevant (even more so than the rest).

You caught me, I'm a scrub. Man, insulted in a forum... what will I ever do.

 

[Veril]

The definition of a "Glitch" is a programming oversight that causes unintended results. I'd say allowing infinite grabbing is an unintended result.

It doesn't really matter. I agree, but, Yuna won't no matter what is said. Also, it doesn't matter.

Nothing Yuna said has any bearing on this other than to try to get a rise out of me with his knee jerk flame response.

 

[Yuna]

Are you done? This crap doesn't deserve a response. You go away.

How about you elaborate on why you think it's perfectly acceptable to hack the game.

 

[ph00tbag]

How about instead of making the game balance we make everyone soo good that the game is broken.

I rather play a game with everyone overpowered then a game that tries to be balanced.

You want Smash 64.

Then again, that game was absolutely amazing. Even 64 Samus would absolutely destroy the entire cast of Brawl.

 

[Skink]

Mario:
Better standard jump (makes sense, he's jump man and his recovery is bad)
More fludd range or length of use
Larger hitbox for Smash forward A

nah i don agree. the game is fine as it is. theres ups and downs to every char, so just leave it at that

also lol at the metaknight player

 

[brinboy789]

the SBR rules clearly state that there are NO hacks. the END

/close thread

 

[Yuna]

It doesn't really matter. I agree, but, Yuna won't no matter what is said. Also, it doesn't matter.

Nothing Yuna said has any bearing on this other than to try to get a rise out of me with his knee jerk flame response.

Yes, because you agree, it must be right. Too bad everyone knowledgeable disagrees on your definition of a glitch.

It's not completely outright flaming. It's criticizing your views and pointing out that you come off as ignorant for claiming grab-releases are glitches when they most clearly aren't. And, again, why make Brawl more like Melee when you can just play Melee?

Why hack Brawl? If you dislike it so much, then just don't play it. Or hack it for friendlies. Do not, however, expect us to ever hack it for Competitive purposes. Also, if this isn't yet another thread begging us to hack the game for Competitive purposes, then it's just a thread on how we could balance the game if we changed things around.

Guess what, there are already many of those out there, at least one of which should still be active. According to SWF rules, this thread must then be locked.

And guess what, you're even in the wrong forum section. This belongs in General Brawl Discussion as it has nothing to do with Tactical Brawl Discussion.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

inb4lock

I kinda agree with Yuna, she is right, it will never happen, you, me and everyone else have melee on their house somewhere, if you want melee go play it.

and plus, if you want to balance the game, keep all the broken characters broken, just buff all the weak ones so they can get broken

 

[BBoyindo]

How about instead of making the game balance we make everyone soo good that the game is broken.

I rather play a game with everyone overpowered then a game that tries to be balanced.

Dude youre right thatd be awsome!

btw balancing the game aint that hard. Just ban mk and all characters will have weaknesses removed and theyd all magically be top tier!

 

[Veril]

How about you elaborate on why you think it's perfectly acceptable to hack the game.

Hacking a game is fine because it is a game, getting that hack implemented at tourneys is not.

We should agree here right? There was another thread on this (hitstun) in which we were more or less on the same side.

It is acceptable to hack the game. We will learn more about the game this way.

Nintendo will not release a patch, this is a way around that. Also, this is theoretical, as stated in the start of this friggin thread!

Come on Yuna, I'm not making you play a hacked brawl. I just want to see how people feel the characters could be balanced. Lay off.

 

[Veril]

Dude youre right thatd be awsome!

btw balancing the game aint that hard. Just ban mk and all characters will have weaknesses removed and theyd all magically be top tier!

HAHAHAHA

Useless. I'm tired of the ban thing, ok.


[I did not intend to double post! My bad.]

 

[Yuna]

I kinda agree with Yuna, she is right, it will never happen, you, me and everyone else have melee on their house somewhere, if you want melee go play it.

I'm obviously the best trap ever as I even trap people online. Read my sig (the bolded part).

Hacking a game is fine because it is a game, getting that hack implemented at tourneys is not.

Only you kinda said in the OP that you support a hacked version in Competitive play. As, read my last post, which outlined why this thread is wrong and why it doesn't even belong in Tactical Brawl Discussion.

I'll correct myself, though: That other thread seems to be deadish. It's not on pages 1 or 2 in General, so you're excused by that. Still, this belongs in General, if anywhere.

But the fact still stands that there are already many threads on this subject: How can we rebalance Brawl by changing things around a bit?

 

[ThrillCkr419]

I think it would be cool to see what the results would be if we got rid of all of the weaknesses. THen it would be more of a comparison of strength during a fight. Instead of thinking the weaker character will lose we may think that the stronger character will win. (sorry its hard ot explain) What i'm trying to say is that it would be interesting to see a character play to his/her strengths and not be held back but his/her weaknesses.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'm obviously the best trap ever as I even trap people online. Read my sig (the bolded part).


Only you kinda said in the OP that you support a hacked version in Competitive play. As, read my last post, which outlined why this thread is wrong and why it doesn't even belong in Tactical Brawl Discussion.

I'll correct myself, though: That other thread seems to be deadish. It's not on pages 1 or 2 in General, so you're excused by that. Still, this belongs in General, if anywhere.

But the fact still stands that there are already many threads on this subject: How can we rebalance Brawl by changing things around a bit?

Yuna, your supposed to report threads that you feel are spam, not add your own insight, needlessly bumping the thread. Did you read the new general discussion forum rules yet?

Personally, I don't see any way in which this thread causes a problem. It probably belongs in tactical because it concerns precision in making characters, and requires an audience who is concerned with the tactical advantages and side-effects of buffing jigglypuff's rest. Also, the OP's instructions were well worded so that technically, discussing nerfs would be spamming.

 

[FuRy Smash]

Why not Nerfing? MetaKnight and Snake are in desperate need of a Nerf. MetaKnight has unnecessary Kill Power with his amazing speed and Comboing abilities, and do I really have to say anything about Snakes Tilts?

Also, removing Grab Releases is technically a Nerf also. Alternating it can heavily degrade characters such as Yoshi or Bowser. Simply, just alternating Lucas/Ness Release recovery time is probably the most simplest solution.

I did a "Mock" Patch awhile ago based on what I feel is balanced.

Falcon:
-Easier to Sweetspot with Fair
-Slight Knockback increase in Smashes
-Dair to always spike
-Nair increase with Damage and Knockback
-Slight increase in Damage for Tilts

Link:
-Stronger Spin Attack in terms of Knockback and Damage
-Increase height of his Spin Attack or Second Jump

Jigglypuff:
-Increase in damage and knockback to her Smashes
-More Knockback to Rest
-Opponents fall asleep longer from Sing
-Slight overall Air Attack increase

Sonic:
-Slight Damage increase to Tilts
-Damage and Knockback increase to Nair
-Knockback increase to Utilt (To something that can be a reasonable Killmove)
-Knockback increase to Homing Attack

Yoshi:
-Slight increase to Knockback and Damage to Fsmash and Usmash
-Increase knockback to Dsmash
-Fair to always spike
-Down Throw to do more damage (2%? Seriously?)

Samus:
-Increase in damage and knockback for Ftilt and Utilt
-Slight damage increase for Fair
-Slight damage increase for Bombs
-Slight knockback increase for Super Missiles

Ivysaur:
-Slight damage and knockback increase for Dsmash

Mario:
-Slight height increase for Super Jump Punch

Ness:
-Slight knockback increase for Dsmash
-Decreased Recovery time for a Ground Grab Break

Lucas:
-Bair to always spike
-Decreased Recovery time for a Ground Grab Break

Lucario:
-Slight Knockback decrease for Aura Sphere
-Slight knockback decrease for Dair

Marth:
-Slight knockback decrease for Fsmash and Dsmash

ROB:
-Slight increase in chargup time for Laser

Game & Watch:
-Decrease in knockback for Smashes
-Increase ending time for Dsmash

Dedede:
-Decrease in damage for Down throw
-Slight knockback decrease for Bair

Snake:
-Decrease in range for Ftilt and Utilt to a realistic amount
-Decrease in power and knockback for Jab Combo
-Decrease in power and knockback for Tilts
-Decrease in power for Nair and Dair

MetaKnight:
-Decrease in knockback for Dsmash
-Increase ending time for Dsmash
-Mach Tornado no longer gains strength when rising up
-Shuttle Loop in the air has decreased knockback

Thoughts

where is ike? that man needs a lot of help srsly.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, your supposed to report threads that you feel are spam, not add your own insight, needlessly bumping the thread. Did you read the new general discussion forum rules yet?

When did I say this thread was spam? It's not spam. It falls under the category "You're NOT original!"

Personally, I don't see any way in which this thread causes a problem. It probably belongs in tactical because it concerns precision in making characters, and requires an audience who is concerned with the tactical advantages and side-effects of buffing jigglypuff's rest. Also, the OP's instructions were well worded so that technically, discussing nerfs would be spamming.

Only the mods seem to disagree and let all of the other threads about the same subject live in General instead of moving them here (or locking them, I guess).

Also, give them a lock and they might not learn their lesson. Tell them why they're wrong and pinpoint exactly what they've done wrong and they might.

 

[Youko]

Please use the search function because you are not the first one to come up with such an idea about *cough-hackingthegame-cough*.

 

[Xsyven]

I locked it without posting a locked message.

And then you unlocked it. >_>