So we should legalize Yoshi's story, right? So we can adapt to it instead of banning it? And all the melee stages that are banned because of stalling should come back in as well?
encouraging stalling is a fine reason for banning a stage. Stages have been banned for it before and arguing about whether or not stalling is a possible cause for a stage ban is ridiculous.
If the metagame of chess evolved to the point where every high-level match ended in a stalemate because of a superior defensive strategy, the game would have to change or die. The chess metaphor is just as flawed as the ridiculous sports metaphors people have been pulling up. The point is simply this: you should play in the optimal way and the optimal way on hyrule leads to stalling which leads to a broken/noncompetitive game. Argue that, don't **** around with vague abstract theoretical horse**** about other games.
*cracks fingers*
First, I'm gonna have to give you a vocabulary lesson Battlecow. Which is funny since you're the english guy, right? And I'm just a lowly engineer
This would be a "vague abstract theoretical" example: Imagine a game which has an initial strategy considered to be the best, lets call it strategy A. There is a group of people who play the game, lets call them group A, who claim that strategy A is unbeatable, and should be banned, or the rules of said game should be changed to prevent strategy A from being as effective. However, before strategy A is nerfed or banned, the overseers of the game would be wise to allow an certain amount of time to pass to allow competitors to come up with counters to strategy A. It is very possible that years down the line, another strategy, lets call it strategy B, will be discovered and found to effectively counter strategy A. Then perhaps a strategy C could be discovered that counters strategy B, but is countered by strategy A. Then the real strategy would be figuring out which strategy your opponent is implementing and adjusting accordingly to counter them (so meta).
This outcome is only possible if enough time is given for strategy B to be discovered before strategy A is nerfed. In fact, if strategy A is nerfed before strategy B is discovered, one can see that the overall metagame of the game is held back until such time as strategy A is unnerfed forcing strategy B to be discovered, or strategy B is discovered by chance (unlike its eventual discovery for the purpose of strategy A). The overall metagame may even be capped if such nerfing occurs, as strategy B may never be utilized. Now of course, this is all predicated on the assumption that strategy B exists, of which there is no such guarantee. However, the premature nerfing of strategy A has the potential to permanently hinder the progress of the metagame, and therefore nerfing should be avoided until it is known to an almost certain degree that strategy A is, indeed, unbeatable.
^That's vague, abstract, and theoretical. However, chess and sports metaphors are what we call in the business "
concrete" examples. See how both are based on real instances that have definitive outcomes? And to pretend like the strategy in smash follows completely different rules from that of other games is almost arrogant in a way. It is statistically unlikely that the game you just so happen to enjoy the most (most of us do, anyway) operates in a special and never-before-seen way with regards to the realm of strategy. Historically, the development of strategy is a feat that takes more than ten years, and smash is almost certainly no different.
My position is not that I am sure that hyrule is balanced. It is that in the past, it was viewed as balanced, and just because in recent years the tactic of camping (I don't think anyone is actually stalling at high level, no not even Gerson. The only stalling I've ever observed was king funk vs valoem, which isn't high level. And that was funk countering valoem's camping with stalling. hilarious by the way, check it out I think its on youtube on atlnorth channel) on hyrule has been utilized successfully does not justify the knee jerk reaction of banning a stage. I think much more time and evidence is needed to justify such a reaction.
Your evidence thus far:
Peru: I assume you are talking mainly about Gerson, who has won the national tourney 2 years running, and played some very impressive matches vs Isai, admittedly by employing camping successfully. But I ask you this, is he unbeatable? No. He loses games to Isai, and to other Peruvian players. Furthermore, have you considered that the results might be the exact same on Dreamland? Without footage of how he fares on other stages, his play is no evidence for unfair success of camping on hyrule. If Gerson is even nearly as effective on other stages, doesn't that mean its not the particular strategy that is unfair, it is the players implementation of whatever strategy is best on the stage that is "too good?" A strategy can't really be too good unless someone is able to abuse it to be significantly more successful than they are without employing the strategy. Need a comparison.
Isai v Boom (genesis only I'm guessing?): I'm not gonna go look at the vids again, but if I remember correctly boom's fox beat isai's yoshi and puff on hyrule, with boom camping quite a bit. I seem to remember boom winning the final match ON dreamland. To say that without hyrule camping boom was outmatched seems to therefore be incorrect. Would Isai have won if it was all dreamland? I dunno, maybe. The matchup was one of booms top vs some of isai's mid to bottom characters, that's gonna be about even no matter where you play. You may not like that the optimal strategy on hyrule is defensive (for now), but no evidence has shown that a player significantly dominates (more so than if it were, say, all dreamland) by abusing the strategy. We KNOW boom is filthy everywhere, and we aren't sure about Gerson's effectiveness elsewhere.
Why not make Yoshi's legal then? Well as I said in one of my sports related posts (you probably didn't read, being the vague abstractness that it was), some strategies have proved to be so dominant that they are banned. In that case, I would recommend rule changes instead of us adapting. Goaltending was the example I used, which was changed due mainly to George Mikan's EVIDENT DOMINANCE through use of the tactic. In my opinion, such dominance has not been reached yet on hyrule. Allowing yoshi's island allows cloud stalling, which we ALL AGREE would cause excessive stalling that not even the best players could penetrate. The key note there being that we are almost UNANIMOUS in our assessment that yoshi's island would not be a competitive stage. The decision of whether a stage is at the point of being unfair will ALWAYS have a subjective element to it. The fact that there is a large contingent of players (possibly more than half) that support hyrule as competitive, or at least are not convinced that it is not, is the reason why the case with hyrule is different from yoshi's or sector z. I agree, the ability to excessively stall should not be encouraged, but I don't think hyrule has shown this yet. That personal discretion element is where we differ. Need more evidence imo.
And finally, if every game of chess ended in a draw because of super defensive strategies, my first instinct would also be to say that chess would have to change or die. However, did you know that checkers is "solved?" Every game should end in a draw if played perfectly. However there are still checkers world championships, mainly because perfect execution is not something humans excel at. Despite this I tend to agree with you that it would be silly to play a game that is solved. Fortunately with chess that has not happened in over one thousand years (for the record, i would say more than a third of grandmaster games end in draws). More importantly, I don't recall a single game of smash resulting in a stalemate due to super defensive strategy. If that happened at a high level then yea I'd agree with you, but it hasn't and likely never will (though I am open to changing my mind if other evidence is shown).
Quick sidenote, you seemed to misunderstand me earlier. I was saying that I DON'T think it is reasonable to say we have discovered optimal play on hyrule in just 13 years.
tl; dr: camping may possibly be too good on hyrule, but we have not yet explored it enough to know for sure. You are obviously satisfied with the current evidence, but myself and others are not, so please stop acting like your opinion on the matter is the only one anyone should have. Considering you told me you didn't like my tone a few days ago, you have taken to a bit of a tone yourself.
Oh and ballin I wrote all my posts from today on my phone, and yes i have thumb problems but more from smash than this lol. Except this post, oh god. I had to pee in the middle of it lol. prolly lots of errors by the way, not even gonna spell/grammar check so BACK OFF GRAMMAR NAZIS.
