Upsmash Out of Shine Combo

[TresChikon]

Yesterday at a local smashfest I was using the usual Thunder's Combo in a Fox ditto, but nowadays all you need to do is DI away or tech.

Anyways he introduced to me a combo that he claimed "works on any character, is faster than a waveshine combo and is the fastest possible thing to do out of a shine."

So he tells me, instead of

Drill-->Shine-->Wavedash--->Whatever

Directly go for the hit and skip the wavedash

Drill-->Shine-->Upsmash

I looked up CunningKistune's guide and

Note that you must wavedash out of the shine, not
triangle-jump, if you hope to follow it with a combo

With your opponent temporarily zapped by the shine, what can you possibly do to
follow up? Oftentimes, it depends on the traction of the character. If you have
just shined a Luigi, you will not be able to reach him in time to follow up, no
matter how fast at wavedashing you are

So this combo eliminates the variable of traction and really catches them before they slide away. It hits on the 8th frame if JC'ed ASAP and hits as late as the 11th frame if JC'ed later, so the earlier the better.

So my friend's claim about working on any character and being than a waveshine combo is true, but is not the fastest because a shinegrab also comes out on the 8th frame if JC'ed ASAP

My friend is pretty good, but I want to check the validity of this combo if it is good for competitive play with you guys.

I tried out the combo with nair and noted that it can get CC'ed and SDI'ed out of so no good there, but so far drill seems like a legit combo.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: the frame date excludes shine frames, so just add 4 frames as being the earliest you can JC the shine and 28800 frames(8minutes) as being the latest you can JC it.

 

[jmlee337]

I'm pretty sure Shine > UpSmash works
see vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imYhNoQ4

 

[Foufy]

I'm pretty sure Shine > UpSmash works
see vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imYhNoQ4

haha, good follow up
I'm sorry I'm a bit of a newb but if u do shine -> upsmash correctly, does it appear as a combo in training mode?

 

[MarkLoo]

pretty sure drill shine upsmash doesnt work
they have to be on the top of the shine hitbox when the shine hits for the upsmash to connect

 

[Miggz]

Yeah I'd simply stick with aerial to waveshines. If it ain't broken (you know what I mean =P) don't fix it.

Although I have seen some Fox players run in, shine, up smash.

 

[TresChikon]

haha, good follow up
I'm sorry I'm a bit of a newb but if u do shine -> upsmash correctly, does it appear as a combo in training mode?

Yes, but it's hard to do it without the C-stick

You have to jump with X or Y then Up+A compared to Up with Ctrl stick and C-stick

Yeah I'd simply stick with aerial to waveshines. If it ain't broken (you know what I mean =P) don't fix it.

Although I have seen some Fox players run in, shine, up smash.

Waveshine combos are broken (in the good way) and I agree that it's probably not worth the effort or trouble to Shine ->usmash Ganon or Peach when waveshine works just as fine.

I'm just suggesting a way to catch low traction characters like IC's or Luigi and a more reliable method than Thunder's Combo to get those who fall down from the shine.

pretty sure drill shine upsmash doesnt work
they have to be on the top of the shine hitbox when the shine hits for the upsmash to connect

I see, drillshine-> usmash took like 5 tries to hit the mark and pretty much needs frame perfect timing.

And i see now that the DI allowed and knockback from nair allows for it to work better with less precise and more practical timing because of the way shine will hit them.

So i guess it's all wrapped up then.

Conclusion

Drillshine -> Usmash =

It needs frame perfect timing and is far too impractical for competitive play. You might miss the Upsmash and lose a perfectly good opportunity to do something else.

NairShine -> Usmash =

It's situational because it depends on the opponent's DI and percentage, but can be a good way to catch bad DI(up) against your nair. However it is much more practical because it gives you much more leeway in your timing because of the speed the top of shine hits them away.

Thanks guys for the input.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i think its only on people that fall from the shine. or on the top of the hitbox.
much like shine to bair.

dont totally listen to me, im not to sure on that.

 

[TresChikon]

i think its only on people that fall from the shine. or on the top of the hitbox.
much like shine to bair.

dont totally listen to me, im not to sure on that.

The hitbox is deceptively large enough to catch anyone. At worst you might miss the sweetspot and hit them with a reverse U-smash, which is hilarious because it's unexpected and screws up their DI.

 

[Strong Badam]

doesn't really work unless you run in w/ the shine. you can shine-grab w/o wavedashing that way, too... i've also seen run -> shine -> upair rofl.

 

[JPOBS]

pretty sure drill shine upsmash doesnt work
they have to be on the top of the shine hitbox when the shine hits for the upsmash to connect

thats not true.

you also can running shine->upsmash opponents who have fallen from a shine (like falco) or missed a tech. it works and its pretty awesome to end a combo with it.

im not sure if shine->upsmash on a standing opponent hits though, they may slide away to fast

 

[TresChikon]

doesn't really work unless you run in w/ the shine. you can shine-grab w/o wavedashing that way, too... i've also seen run -> shine -> upair rofl.

Ah running shine, I need to try that sometime. But I'm pointing out that Shine-Usmash works when they get hit by the top of your shine as in shine aerials. Which can be set up by nair if they DI badly, like up.

thats not true.

you also can running shine->upsmash opponents who have fallen from a shine (like falco) or missed a tech. it works and its pretty awesome to end a combo with it.

im not sure if shine->upsmash on a standing opponent hits though, they may slide away to fast

Technically you don't even need to run shine to do it, but the timing is so horribly specific that it's really impractical.

But the running thing will definitely help, thanks guys.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Yes, but it's hard to do it without the C-stick

You have to jump with X or Y then Up+A compared to Up with Ctrl stick and C-stick.

No, you don't. Is that how you JC usmashes? You only have to hit up and then A within 4 frames of hitting up. It's because the devs realized that players wouldn't necessarily hit up+A at the exact same time. So just hit down-b then UP, and then then 1-4 frames later hit A. Voila, a shine usmash without the c-stick in training mode, and easy to do.

 

[TresChikon]

No, you don't. Is that how you JC usmashes? You only have to hit up and then A within 4 frames of hitting up. It's because the devs realized that players wouldn't necessarily hit up+A at the exact same time. So just hit down-b then UP, and then then 1-4 frames later hit A. Voila, a shine usmash without the c-stick in training mode, and easy to do.

Mm, I see.

I do use the Up+a to JC U-smashes.

I kind of assumed USmash Out of Shine would be the same input as Usmash OoS and to just press up and C-stick up. I overlooked that you could just do it the other way. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Yakal]

as one who constantly tries to shineupsmash a simple upsmash out of shine while attempting a thunders from a drill will not work

 

[TresChikon]

as one who constantly tries to shineupsmash a simple upsmash out of shine while attempting a thunders from a drill will not work

Run that by me again?

 

[Strong Badam]

he means that drillshineupsmash without a wavedash after the shine doesn't work. which should be pretty obvious.
it MIGHT be possible if you run and shffl the dair but yeah.

 

[TresChikon]

Ah, I had to implement my cousin's AR to implement that. You literally need to JC the shine on the 4th frame and U-Smash on the 1st frame of the jump.

I'm too slow to do that in reality and I doubt anyone can consistently do it. You really need some forward momentum to give you an extra 4-5 frames in the window of opportunity.

It's hard, but like all of Fox's other crud, it pays off well when the situation arises.

it MIGHT be possible if you run and shffl the dair but yeah.

An aerial-shine can actually yield momentum? Sounds tricky, I think my fingers might have an epileptic seizure.

 

[BrianTheLion]

yeah i shine upsmash other fox's in training mode

 

[TresChikon]

yeah i shine upsmash other fox's in training mode

Now do it at 2x speed.

 

[RaynEX]

I'm just suggesting a way to catch low traction characters like IC's or Luigi and a more reliable method than Thunder's Combo to get those who fall down from the shine.

You can dair, waveshine, usmash opponents who fall from the shine if you have enough momentum. (While they are sliding on the ground)

Dtilt ftilt, and even nair work in this same fashion. Dair, waveshine, SH nair (tip of nair hits and pops them up). Grab?


If you want to catch ICs or Luigi with waveshine combos there are a few things you can do. Mind you, they aren't legit combos, but they might work.

-shine JC illusion->aerial. Don't do this vs. ICs. If you miss one of them you're ****ed.

-waveshine, run in close and shield. Wait for something and shieldgrab. If they don't throw out a move, jump and do another aerial and continue pushing them off the stage. Once those low traction *****es get thrown off the stage its done.

-waveshine->dtilt. If you max range the dtilt it sometimes catches them or goes under the shield. This works alot better at low/mid percents where uair will combo afterwards.

-waveshine->fullhop aerial. Assuming they don't crouchcancel and get hit, or they are in shield, this is a relatively safe followup. (Shine protects your ***)

If they get smart and try to CC or jump and hit you out of your Fullhop:

you've now just trained them to expect a certain follow-up. Mix up time.

-shine->turnaround->wavedash backwards. This is best used near an edge, when the shine doesn't knock them off the stage. If it does, forget the turnaround and run off and shine again. If not, this helps you quickly get your back turned and lets you zone them with bair. It has enough priority and range to rack up damage and/or knock them off. Shine/buffer rolls to protect you if you miss any of your spaced bairs.

These probably aren't as useful as I thought but once I started typing it was hard to stop.

 

[TresChikon]

You can dair, waveshine, usmash opponents who fall from the shine if you have enough momentum. (While they are sliding on the ground)

Dair? hmm.... Correct me if i'm wrong, but while they're on the ground i believe it's possible to keep them in the sliding motion and perform full-fledge shine combos? Kind of like multishining Falco against a wall.

Dtilt ftilt, and even nair work in this same fashion. Dair, waveshine, SH nair (tip of nair hits and pops them up). Grab?

Really situational, but I've tried using the first hit of fair as a weaker alternative to nair, kind of like choosing Doc's nair over u-air for sometimes. Maybe I can apply this to your advice.

shine JC illusion->aerial. Don't do this vs. ICs. If you miss one of them you're ****ed.

Sounds flashy, I've never seen it in action though.

waveshine, run in close and shield. Wait for something and shieldgrab. If they don't throw out a move, jump and do another aerial and continue pushing them off the stage. Once those low traction *****es get thrown off the stage its done.

I always have the problem where people like to jab me out of shine combos, this sounds way better than trying rush over to Luigi and taking a jab-d-smash.

waveshine->dtilt. If you max range the dtilt it sometimes catches them or goes under the shield. This works alot better at low/mid percents where uair will combo afterwards.

Wow I never even though of tilting in shine combos. I'll definitely try it out. Sounds super comboable (like every other Fox move.)

waveshine->fullhop aerial. Assuming they don't crouchcancel and get hit, or they are in shield, this is a relatively safe followup. (Shine protects your ***)

I see how this opens many more options for a player.

If they get smart and try to CC or jump and hit you out of your Fullhop:

you've now just trained them to expect a certain follow-up. Mix up time.

Ooo, the mindgames.

shine->turnaround->wavedash backwards. This is best used near an edge, when the shine doesn't knock them off the stage. If it does, forget the turnaround and run off and shine again. If not, this helps you quickly get your back turned and lets you zone them with bair. It has enough priority and range to rack up damage and/or knock them off. Shine/buffer rolls to protect you if you miss any of your spaced bairs.

Sounds like it could also lead into some scary bair pressure.

probably aren't as useful as I thought but once I started typing it was hard to stop.

Nah seriously, my fox is trash, all I do out of shine is grab and smash. It's really inside of the box thinking and bad overall.

I never really thought about all of the other potentially **** options that shine could produce, so thanks a lot for all of your advice so far.

I appreciate the help RaynEX!

 

[Foufy]

nooby fox here.
waveshine -> dtilt
does that mean d-air (not required) -> shine->wavedash -> dtilt -> SH n-air or w/e u want.
or does that mean d-air(" " ) -> shine -> dtilt

 

[RaynEX]

It means shine->wavedash->dtilt. Add an aerial before the shine if you want to combo into it.

rule of thumb. waveshine = shine->WD out (usually into moves)

 

[Foufy]

yeah I figured that out, thanks very much.
I never thought about how useful the dtilt is. It has so much range and on those heavy chars it just leaves them there.
Leads into so many cool things like d-air->waveshine->d-tilt->dashattack (hit with last box and get behind them) -> turn around grab -> GRAB GAME!

 

[RaynEX]

Remember to play it safe when it comes to broken piece combos. Going for dash attacks to grabs is pretty risky, considering that if they don't fall down (or CC) they can hit you before you hit them. Dtilt usmash or dtilt SH nair is legit if they are just floating there.

 

[TresChikon]

If they start CCing your shines, you just trained them to do something against your shine, now obliterate!

 

[RaynEX]

If they start CCing your shines, you just trained them to do something against your shine, now obliterate!

There ya go. Now you're thinkin' like a pro.

 

[PB&J]

if u need more vids just watch colbol..he uses it as a tech chase to cover two options so watch it and study it

 

[TresChikon]

Really? I will, thanx!