Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[Deleted member]

Or they'll start spewing garbage about how Animal Crossing fans aren't true Nintendo fans

Or that AC is a game for casuals.

Like so what? Are casuals not as deserving of a character as hardcore fans? You must HATE Pokemon then, that's the most casual JRPG I know and it has, what, ten or so reps now?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

My point is that she would've gotten in regardless of the new Animal Crossing. I'd also argue it absolutely wasn't "fine for what it had." Animal Crossing should absolutely have more characters than Gyromite. The series was still playing catch-up ever since it got snubbed from Brawl.

OK. Well I respectfully disagree with you there. I'm not going to try to change your opinion.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Pound for pound, Ultimate has the best single player content in any Smash game. Hours upon hours of stuff to do. Even without Break the Targets, trophies, the game demo things, stage builder, etc.

World of Light is the best adventure mode with the most content and replayability

Best challenge board

Ultimate has the best Classic Mode, hands down

Spirits are neat, albeit gimmicky

It relies on its core gameplay and yet it still manages to showcase and celebrate Nintendo's history perfectly.

Do not agree. There's a lot to do in Smash Ultimate, but a lot of it is the same: battling against CPUs. Conditions change constantly, but at the end of the day I'm still constantly trying to knock CPUs offstage before they can do the same to me. Say what you will about Board the Platforms, Break the Targets, and Home Run Contest, but at least each one did something different from the norm. Once I've gotten all Spirits (less than 200 to go) the mode will be useless to me.

I will agree Classic is the best, though the Bonus & Credits games get stale quickly and way too many characters face the Hands (on top of the Hands just being rather frustrating to fight in this game in general, kinda sick of them).

I disagree about WoL being the best Adventure mode, it's too bloody long and repetitive with not enough variety. Could have used more/refightable bosses, less Novice battles, actual levels (even something like Cuphead where there's just a handful of platforming stages to change things up). Once I finish trudging through it I don't know how long it'll be before I consider doing that slog again.

 

[Idon]

World of Light might be the worst singleplayer experience I've ever seen get praised as much as it does.

 

[Dee Dude]

-Honestly speaking, AT promotions through DLC is kind of a lame idea.

Hear me out, while it pleases many fans of having their character playable without waiting another 5-10 years, simply reprogramming them to playable in Ultimate DLC just kinda cheapens everything, it feels like instead of rewarding those long-awaiting fans for a brand Smash 6 reveal, they just simply go “alright, fine here’s your AT character as a fighter now stop complaining.”

Heck, when you get down to it, it doesn’t even sound that exciting to fans because they would simply go “oh cool, they’re playable now.” instead of genuine hype of “OH YES, THEY’RE FINALLY PLAYABLE IN THE NEW GAME!”

Most will probably disagree with me on this but it’s just my thoughts.

 

[Guynamednelson]

simply reprogramming them to playable

Even though everyone likes to rave about how ATs now feel like real fighters, I can tell they still have to do a lot more than rename files named "assist_spring_man" to "fighter_spring_man".

• Look closely and you'll see that at best, they only have 1/5 of a complete moveset.
• Their AI feels more artificial compared to that of a fighter's.
• Their model and texture quality is still below that of fighters. Chrom's FS model could get reused because he doesn't have the specific corner cuts that ATs have, weird-looking face be damned.

 

[Astroking112]

I would rather not have "Everyone is here" if it came with more newcomers. Having never played Melee or the older Smashes before, seeing characters like Dr. Mario and Pichu return means a lot less to me than seeing more new people like Isaac or Springman does.

On the same note, I also would've preferred for more attention on alternate modes than getting every character to return, especially if these aren't added via future updates.

 

[aisenriggs]

Dark Samus being an Echo doesn't make any sense unless we are just judging the entire character by it's similar appearance to Samus.

Them not including specifically 15 of the previous stages makes no sense to me.

If Richter is gonna be more than just a skin they need to change more than just his down special.

Daisy is also too similar to Peach.

Echos don't make logical sense. If Chrom and Dark Samus are echos, then Roy and Doctor Mario should be too.

Spring Man being an assist trophy instead of a character is the worst decision Nintendo has made in recent years.

Really? You did all of that work to make Shovel Knight an assist trophy, but refuse to make him playable?

That last one can be applied to a lot of assist trophies and Pokemon.

World of Light is worse than Subspace. I didn't even like Subspace that much and I am saying that. World of Light has got to be the most shallow single player mode I have seen in a smash game, and I remember Smash tour.

Pokemon trainer should have been three separate characters. I thought we moved past the tying characters to each other. All it does is turn three potentially strong fighters, into lesser versions by removing their down specials.

Arms' online is far superior to Smash Ultimate's. Like honestly, just copy and paste what Arms did Nintendo.

There are not enough tournament options in tourney mode. This is coming from a tournament runner, so it may hold bias.

 

[Ze Diglett]

People hyper-focus way too much on characters when they talk about series representation. Sure, it can be argued that characters are the highest form of representation a series can get, but there are still stages, music, Assist Trophies, and several lesser forms of representation to consider, which is why I don't think a series just being "big" automatically entitles it to X number of reps. Depending on the nature of said series, any other form of representation could be more appropriate for it; Animal Crossing is huge among Nintendo properties, for instance, but since the series is in no way combat-oriented, I think just one catch-all rep a la Game & Watch and F-Zero makes sense. (And in my opinion, that rep should be Isabelle since she's the bonafide mascot of her series whereas Villager is not, but that's beside the point.) ATs and stages, on the other hand, seem more appropriate since Animal Crossing as a series is about the world and the characters within it, but not at all about how they fight. Minecraft is another example of this; a stage would undoubtedly represent the game and its values better than a fighter, but people automatically jump straight to a character (which, mind you, it has basically none of) not because it'd actually be a good idea, but because "it's big." Believe it or not, alternative forms of representation do matter, and if we ignore them entirely, we end up with the idea that, say, pre-Isabelle Animal Crossing had representation tantamount to R.O.B.'s despite the major content disparity between the two (1 character, 2 stages, an AT, several trophies, and a handful of music tracks vs. 1 character, 3 trophies, and a single remix), which is absurd.

 

[KatKit]

Do not agree. There's a lot to do in Smash Ultimate, but a lot of it is the same: battling against CPUs. Conditions change constantly, but at the end of the day I'm still constantly trying to knock CPUs offstage before they can do the same to me. Say what you will about Board the Platforms, Break the Targets, and Home Run Contest, but at least each one did something different from the norm. Once I've gotten all Spirits (less than 200 to go) the mode will be useless to me.

I will agree Classic is the best, though the Bonus & Credits games get stale quickly and way too many characters face the Hands (on top of the Hands just being rather frustrating to fight in this game in general, kinda sick of them).

I disagree about WoL being the best Adventure mode, it's too bloody long and repetitive with not enough variety. Could have used more/refightable bosses, less Novice battles, actual levels (even something like Cuphead where there's just a handful of platforming stages to change things up). Once I finish trudging through it I don't know how long it'll be before I consider doing that slog again.

*spoilers** It took 5 Smash games to be able to legitimately play as Master Hand, and the way it was pulled off was worth the grind/wait. The last section of WoL had platforming, boss rush, and a quasi all-star mode/squad battle/survival hybrid. That alone was worth replaying twice (and even more if you want to do the Ganondorf/no death challenge). I'm getting a lot of mileage out of replaying WoL on a higher difficulty using all of the unlocked fighters from the get-go with whatever spirits I choose. I can breeze through everything and it's nice to have the option, but I won't.

Aside from that, there's plenty of variety with exploration. The Castlevania section had typical Metroidvania puzzles. There's an area with quizzes. The Zelda section had a nod to The Lost Woods and its own secrets/puzzles. Etc.

Nobody buys this game for the side stuff. It's always been solid, but it's a fun distraction at best. Nearly all of the battles in Ultimate's Adventure and Classic Modes seemed like they were individually crafted to tell some kind of story. To each there own I guess. I'm about to replay Ryu's Classic mode for the third time lol.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Nobody buys this game for the side stuff. It's always been solid, but it's a fun distraction at best.

I guess that makes me nobody, since I enjoy Smash just as much, if not more for its singleplayer than for its multiplayer. For me, that "side stuff" is part of the main experience and the fact that about 90% of Ultimate's singleplayer content is the same "fight a CPU with a kooky condition" kind of leaves me wanting more in the end, especially since the spirit battles are all either mind-numbingly easy or rip-your-hair-out hard. At least it's better than what Smash 4 gave us...

 

[Guynamednelson]

Echos don't make logical sense. If Chrom and Dark Samus are echos, then Roy and Doctor Mario should be too.

They're supposed to be very samey. Chrom and Dark Samus still share many gameplay traits with Roy and Samus, while Roy and Dr. Mario don't share as many with Marth and Mario.

 

[PF9]

I feel that all the non-human mammals should have realistic fur even the electric mice, Sonic and Isabelle.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Pokemon has enough characters. Anymore and may as well call it Super Pokemon Bros. guest starring other characters from different franchises.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pokemon has enough characters. Anymore and may as well call it Super Pokemon Bros. guest starring other characters from different franchises.

You sure do like copying your previous posts into this thread.

 

[Idon]

I feel that all the non-human mammals should have realistic fur even the electric mice, Sonic and Isabelle.

You mean like Pokken?
That ****'s waaaaay too hard to put into a 8 player ffa game.

 

[MG_3989]

I know a lot of people say focus on one character at a time and pick a main early. While picking a main is definitely something you need to do eventually people should be testing a ton of characters at this point in the games lifecycle

Yeah you might already have a main or two from previous games (and of course you’re gonna pull them out for serious matches) but it’s a new game with new physics and there are so many characters and you may stumble upon somebody who fits your play style better

After you play a bunch of characters and get a feel for the way they play in Ultimate then you should decide on the couple of characters you want to focus on but for now experiment away (although this is somewhat hypocritical because I’m 99% sure Ness will be my main but I’m still experimenting a ton on secondaries and playing Ness a little less than I will in the future, especially online)

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Pokemon has enough characters. Anymore and may as well call it Super Pokemon Bros. guest starring other characters from different franchises.

Yep. That's it. You got it there.

I feel that all the non-human mammals should have realistic fur even the electric mice, Sonic and Isabelle.

Only if you want to wait another year for them to take the time to animate that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Only if you want to wait another year for them to take the time to animate that.

It'd just be an additional texture. Also, you basically want Super Kirby Bros. To be fair, Michael wants Super Quota Bros., so it's not like he's innocent either. Basically, if you think the roster is oversaturated with Pokemon, don't oversaturate it with """""""""balance""""""""".

 

[Wyoming]

Pokemon has enough characters. Anymore and may as well call it Super Pokemon Bros. guest starring other characters from different franchises.

It has 9 out of 78 (most likely 79 since brave most certainly isn't a Pokemon). Is it really? That's 11.39% of the roster!

 

[YoshiandToad]

It'd just be an additional texture. Also, you basically want Super Kirby Bros. To be fair, Michael wants Super Quota Bros., so it's not like he's innocent either. Basically, if you think the roster is oversaturated with Pokemon, don't oversaturate it with """""""""balance""""""""".

I want more Mario. What're we calling that particular angle?

Talking of which:
I'd be perfectly fine having a fighters pass that is literally nothing but Mario characters.

Gimme Captain Toad/Toad with a Toadette alt/echo, Waluigi, Paper Mario, Nabbit and Fawful/King Boo/E. Gadd/Geno and Mallow/Pauline/Goomba even.

Any of these would excite me more than five random third parties ever could. That's pretty unpopular these days.

 

[osby]

I want more Mario. What're we calling that particular angle?

Talking of which:
I'd be perfectly fine having a fighters pass that is literally nothing but Mario characters.

Gimme Captain Toad/Toad with a Toadette alt/echo, Waluigi, Paper Mario, Nabbit and Fawful/King Boo/E. Gadd/Geno and Mallow/Pauline/Goomba even.

Any of these would excite me more than five random third parties ever could. That's pretty unpopular these days.

I don't necessarily want third parties but more new franchises in general. Base roster really didn't delivered that. Five characters from one series would be underwhelming, even if I like them.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Any of these would excite me more than five random third parties ever could. That's pretty unpopular these days.

Third parties would be less exciting than five white human sword wielding anime style blue haired fire emblem fighters. And we have four of those already. Literally all of the popular third party pitches bore me. Master Chief and de Blob are the only interesting ones I can think of. Even if we got five generic Mario enemies that would be better.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Regardless of his AT, I wish F-Zero fans would go back to focusing on Samurai Goroh instead of Black Shadow. Goroh would serve a purpose other than being a dumping ground for a decloned Ganondorf's old moveset, which in its current state is too Ganondorf-themed anyway.

 

[osby]

I actively don't want any "fan favorite" character as DLC, because I'm tired of pretty much every big support groups.

 

[aisenriggs]

They're supposed to be very samey. Chrom and Dark Samus still share many gameplay traits with Roy and Samus, while Roy and Dr. Mario don't share as many with Marth and Mario.

Roy's only major differences are his Neutral Special and his fire effects, and Dr. Mario is the equivalent of Dark Pit for Mario. Just Mario with a different Down Special and Down Air, heavier, and very slight differences in how attacks work. Why would it make sense for Dark Pit to be an echo but not Dr. Mario? Also the logic of Roy should not be considered an Echo of Marth makes less sense when property wise Chrom is more similar to Marth than he is to Roy. Only reason he isn't a Marth echo is because Chrom has that similar Neutral Special to Roy.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I actively don't want any "fan favorite" character as DLC, because I'm tiredof pretty much every big support groups.

Out of curiosity, since most characters have some sort of fan base, what counts as a "fan favourite" tier list character?

 

[osby]

Out of curiosity, since most characters have some sort of fan base, what counts as a "fan favourite" tier list character?

The ones that overshadows others most, I guess, like Banjo-Kazooie, Isaac or Geno. You know, "we don't have ballot results, but we know they scored highly" type of characters.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Roy's only major differences are his Neutral Special and his fire effects

And his up special, and the sweetspot mechanic.

 

[aisenriggs]

People hyper-focus way too much on characters when they talk about series representation. Sure, it can be argued that characters are the highest form of representation a series can get, but there are still stages, music, Assist Trophies, and several lesser forms of representation to consider, which is why I don't think a series just being "big" automatically entitles it to X number of reps. Depending on the nature of said series, any other form of representation could be more appropriate for it; Animal Crossing is huge among Nintendo properties, for instance, but since the series is in no way combat-oriented, I think just one catch-all rep a la Game & Watch and F-Zero makes sense. (And in my opinion, that rep should be Isabelle since she's the bonafide mascot of her series whereas Villager is not, but that's beside the point.) ATs and stages, on the other hand, seem more appropriate since Animal Crossing as a series is about the world and the characters within it, but not at all about how they fight. Minecraft is another example of this; a stage would undoubtedly represent the game and its values better than a fighter, but people automatically jump straight to a character (which, mind you, it has basically none of) not because it'd actually be a good idea, but because "it's big." Believe it or not, alternative forms of representation do matter, and if we ignore them entirely, we end up with the idea that, say, pre-Isabelle Animal Crossing had representation tantamount to R.O.B.'s despite the major content disparity between the two (1 character, 2 stages, an AT, several trophies, and a handful of music tracks vs. 1 character, 3 trophies, and a single remix), which is absurd.

I agree with all of this but the assist trophy part. Some assist trophies and pokeballs are fun and festive little nods to games. Some however have so much work put into it that with an extra bit of work they could be made into fully playable characters. I don't understand putting in this much effort into characters people desire to be in the game, just to make them a one in who knows chance of popping up after grabbing an item with a small chance of appearing amongst all the items in the game. This is especially silly when you consider that a large sum of the community doesn't play with items at all.

And his up special, and the sweetspot mechanic.

Yeah but that is minor. Like Dark Pit's Neutral and Side special. Does almost the same thing, with a few minor differences.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

The thing about Roy and Dr. Mario is they were created before Echoes existed. They also have far more different moves and attributes, weights, and mechanics. Lucina is literally Marth with a few pixel height/range difference and simply removing the mechanic. Roy has far bigger differences in his stats as well. Stats are rarely different with Echoes.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The ones that overshadows others most, I guess, like Banjo-Kazooie, Isaac or Geno. You know, "we don't have ballot results, but we know they scored highly" type of characters.

That bugs me a lot. Especially when people go "X's support thread has lots of replies so clearly they're the most popular."

 

[Dee Dude]

Pokemon has enough characters. Anymore and may as well call it Super Pokemon Bros. guest starring other characters from different franchises.

Funny enough, someone could say the same for Mario characters but they can’t because it’s literally named after Super Mario Bros lol.

 

[Opossum]

Roy's only major differences are his Neutral Special and his fire effects, and Dr. Mario is the equivalent of Dark Pit for Mario. Just Mario with a different Down Special and Down Air, heavier, and very slight differences in how attacks work. Why would it make sense for Dark Pit to be an echo but not Dr. Mario? Also the logic of Roy should not be considered an Echo of Marth makes less sense when property wise Chrom is more similar to Marth than he is to Roy. Only reason he isn't a Marth echo is because Chrom has that similar Neutral Special to Roy.

Roy and Marth have an incredible amount of differences. People just actively refuse to see them because "anime swordsman."

Marth's jab is two graceful, upward swings, while Roy's is a single strike coming up from the side in a reverse grip.
Marth's up tilt is an upward arching slash that hits above and behind, while Roy's is stylistically different and only hits above him. Marth's is an anti-air while Roy's is a combo starter.
Marth's forward tilt is a horizontal slash taken right from his games, while Roy's is a downward chopping motion that hits below platforms.

Marth's side smash is an arching overhead slash that crashes into the ground in front of him, while Roy's is a violent swing that never makes impact with the ground.
Marth's up smash is a pointed thrust upward taken right from his critical hit animation, while Roy's takes the same move but makes it a multihit with a fire effect. Considering this is similar to the differences between Ness and Lucas' versions of PK Fire and PK Thunder, this is a significant difference.

Marth's down air is a parabolic slash beneath his feet while Roy slams his sword straight down.

Shield Breaker, well, breaks shields with a forward lunge, while Flare Blade is meant to be a strong kill move, and can now turn while charging.
Dolphin Slash and Blazer are both very different attacks as well, with Marth having a quick out of shield option and more vertical range, while Roy has more horizontal reach and a shoryuken-like combo move.

Their two variants of Critical Hit are alike in name only. Marth dashes forward with a single strike while Roy stays in place but has a startup hitbox. Both are based on their respective critical hits from their games.

Their dash attacks also have a difference, though it's smaller. Marth swings outward while Roy swings inward. This also affects their hit boxes.

As for mechanical differences, Roy falls faster and runs faster, to better fit his up close and personal playstyle. Their tipper and hilt mechanics also require Marth and Roy to play differently on a fundamental level, making them by definition not echoes.

The moves they share are their down tilt, down smash, all aerials besides down air, Counter, and Dancing Blade/Double-Edged Dance. Half of his moves are shared with Marth, but half are completely different. Roy is not an echo at all.

Meanwhile, Lucina shares all of Marth's moves but with a Balanced Blade mechanic, making her a Marth echo. Chrom, meanwhile, does have some differences from Roy. Aesthetically, his animations are reworked to use a normal grip, but the hitboxes are the same as Roy's. Mechanically, he lacks a fire effect on his attacks, he has a different up special (Soaring Slash is similar, but not identical, to Ike's Aether, as Chrom doesn't throw Falchion like Ike does with Ragnell), and he has his own unique Final Smash with Awakening Aether. Even though he has the second most amount of differences among the echoes, only behind Ken, he still is very much an echo of Roy, not Marth.

 

[Dee Dude]

That bugs me a lot. Especially when people go "X's support thread has lots of replies so clearly they're the most popular."

Uh...dude, that doesn’t make any sense.

If a character is popular, would you expect their thread to only have like 15 replies or something?

I mean unless it’s a controversial character or something, I don’t understand your point.

 

[Opossum]

Uh...dude, that doesn’t make any sense.

If a character is popular, would you expect their thread to only have like 15 replies or something?

I mean unless it’s a controversial character or something, I don’t understand your point.

I mean to be fair, reply count means literally nothing when most of the larger ones are used as social threads.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Yeah but that is minor. Like Dark Pit's Neutral and Side special. Does almost the same thing, with a few minor differences.

You've never played as Roy in your life then.

Marth and Roy have very clear differences between them and Opossum did a good job spelling them out for you.

Go to training mode, pick Marth, use all his moves and move around with him for a while. Then go and pick Roy, do the same, then compare this normals and specials with Marth's. Trying playing Roy the same way you would play Marth in an actual match. You would be unsuccessful because the characters' moves and feel is different.

Contrast to Pit and Dark Pit who are cut from the same cloth. Their feel is exactly the same hence if you can play as one you will be able to play as the other as long as you take the minor differences in some of their properties into account.

 

[SNinjaStudios]

Smash has more than enough third parties and could honestly stand to lose a few.

World of Light is lackluster, and I cannot seem myself ever wanting to play through that sludgefest again in the future.

Spirit Board is ruined by the tedious shield minigame that you have to play after every match; it dulls the sense of accomplishment that one would feel when they manage to win an extremely difficult challenge.

I would've preferred more newcomers over having every veteran return, especially when some of those veterans should have never been included in Smash in the first place (I'm looking at you, ).

 

[AlphaSSB]

Alright, Opossum and Ryu Myuutsu , you've got me interested. I went through training mode with both characters, performing each move with both of them side-by-side to see how different they really are. 26 moves total tested. If it was the same, +1. If it was different, +0. If there were some differences, but the move was otherwise very similar, +.5. Feel free to ask for my reasoning if you disagree with or are curious about any of the values given.

Shared (+1): Down Tilt, Down Smash, Neutral Aerial, Forward Aerial, Back Aerial, Up Aerial, Grab, Pummel, Forward Throw, Back Throw, Up Throw, Down Throw, Floor Attack, Edge Attack, Side Special, and Down Special. (16 Total)

Different (+0): Neutral Attack, Forward Tilt, Up Tilt, Forward Smash, Down Aerial, Neutral Special, Up Special, and Final Smash. (8 Total)

Similar (+.5): Dash Attack and Up Smash (2 Total)

16 + (.5 * 2) = 17

17 is 65.4% of 26

By my calculations, Roy is 65.4% Marth. Semi-Clone territory.

If you want to be binary, considering all similar (+.5) moves as different (+0), then its 61.5%

Though of course, they still play very differently in an actual match. Anyone who is aware of Marth's tip and Roy's hilt should know that, ha. Just note I don't really count different optimal playstyles, seeing as it's technically more subjective.

I've actually been planning on doing something like this for quite a while, comparing each character with one considered a clone. Thanks for getting me started, ha.

 

[Opossum]

Alright, Opossum and Ryu Myuutsu , you've got me interested. I went through training mode with both characters, performing each move with both of them side-by-side to see how different they really are. 26 moves total tested. If it was the same, +1. If it was different, +0. If there were some differences, but the move was otherwise very similar, +.5. Feel free to ask for my reasoning if you disagree with or are curious about any of the values given.

Shared (+1): Down Tilt, Down Smash, Neutral Aerial, Forward Aerial, Back Aerial, Up Aerial, Grab, Pummel, Forward Throw, Back Throw, Up Throw, Down Throw, Floor Attack, Edge Attack, Side Special, and Down Special. (16 Total)

Different (+0): Neutral Attack, Forward Tilt, Up Tilt, Forward Smash, Down Aerial, Neutral Special, Up Special, and Final Smash. (8 Total)

Similar (+.5): Dash Attack and Up Smash (2 Total)

16 + (.5 * 2) = 17

17 is 65.4% of 26

By my calculations, Roy is 65.4% Marth. Semi-Clone territory.

If you want to be binary, considering all similar (+.5) moves as different (+0), then its 61.5%

Though of course, they still play very differently in an actual match. Anyone who is aware of Marth's tip and Roy's hilt should know that, ha. Just note I don't really count different optimal playstyles, seeing as it's technically more subjective.

I've actually been planning on doing something like this for quite a while, comparing each character with one considered a clone. Thanks for getting me started, ha.

I mean, at the same time, do you really need to include the grab and pummel when those are pretty much the same for most of the cast? I think it's more notable when a character has a different grab and pummel than a similar one. Most are pretty standard.