Shady Shaymin
Smash Journeyman
1.1.5 goals ^-^If the grab had Lucas levels of end lag, or if it was converted into a melee grab with follow ups then yes, Yoshi would be insanely broken.
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1.1.5 goals ^-^If the grab had Lucas levels of end lag, or if it was converted into a melee grab with follow ups then yes, Yoshi would be insanely broken.
Yoshi's Fair is safe on shield if spaced properly. Yoshi has so many mixups that conditioning opponents into shielding isn't that big of a deal. Also The Wall has done exceedingly well with Yoshi alone.I for one agree with this opinion highly. I've mained Yoshi for over a year now and all of the things that were brought up are things that are very true. None of his aerials are safe on shield even if spaced properly. Shields absolutely destroy his entire game plan. And quite frankly nobody has been able to do well with him. Even in my scene there have been quite a bit of Yoshi players almost all of which end up dropping him later on down the road. And the few who haven't dropped him believe him not to be too good as well. Great article very informative.
Yoshis do well on the local level. But they very rarely (never, at this point?) take great placements at national events. This is either indicative of a lack of player skill among his players, or that Yoshi just isn't that good in the current meta.Yoshi's Fair is safe on shield if spaced properly. Yoshi has so many mixups that conditioning opponents into shielding isn't that big of a deal. Also The Wall has done exceedingly well with Yoshi alone.
I completely agree with that, but saying things like "Yoshi doesn't have any aerials safe on shield" is just plain wrong. I still agree with The Wall in that Yoshi is still solo main viable and can be pushed further. I also agree with Yoshi's current placing on the official tierlist as a Mid tier. I believe that he has the potential to be a high tier, but in the current meta and how he is being played places him at a Mid tier. I just don't want misinformation to be spread around about the character.Yoshis do well on the local level. But they very rarely (never, at this point?) take great placements at national events. This is either indicative of a lack of player skill among his players, or that Yoshi just isn't that good in the current meta.
Man I hate fotm ****Heck look at iStudying with Greninja. We just need to stick with Yoshi long enough to get there ourselves.
Prolly cause the character isn't exactly a secret beast? That's like some of the delusional Link or Zelda mains back in brawl thinking there's some magical untapped power in them that has yet to be found, and I'm not exaggerating either.I don't understand the attitude of saying the character just isn't good enough.
Our kill setups is split in like 5 or 6 situations.To the point of killing taking longer, Yoshi has kill setups, yes? After you get your opponent to a certain percent,
Personally I'd say it leans towards Ryu, because he has some stupidly safe kill setups Yoshi doesn't have.45:55 (not sure on this one, could be even)
I'm gonna be a bit emphatic here, please note that none of this emotion is directed at you in any way.I didn't mean to come off like that much of a tool, and I am sorry. I was being facetious. I do not discredit all the yoshi players who have invested time playing/developing him. Its just I have been under a rock in terms of the game meta and greater discussion for a long time so half of what I say is ignorant. I didn't even know people thought link and zelda had untapped potential.
Zero and others have described yoshi as undeveloped. Is they mistaken? Again, maybe zero has no idea what he's talking about and I'm only referring to his opinion because I don't know any better, I'm just here to learn.
I am maybe confusing the development of a character with individual player skill.
Can someone give me an example of a smash 4 character's meta and play style that changed as people developed it (without necessarily being the direct result of nerfs/buffs)?
He has good frame data, but not enough good frame data on moves that matter (i.e. kill moves). This REALLY hurts. The fact that Nair comes out so quickly and interrupts combos is great and all, but a lot of our good frame data is used up on things like jab and nair coming out really fast, while our kill moves are just a little bit too slow to be get combo'd into by the fast ones (in general).FWIW I don't think most people still think Yoshi is that good anymore. The consensus seems to place him at the top of mid tier, or just outside high tier. I think it's appropriate, given that Yoshi has nothing super abusive or broken. He's too honest to be top tier. His specs are very good, and is his frame data not good? It certainly feels good enough, though coming from a Toon Link player, that means little I suppose.
I'd wager it's worse than that. Back in the early days when everyone thought Yoshi was "SS tier" we had alot of players playing Yoshi and more recently we've seen Esam (as a secondary) and others try and pick him up.I would say that the people who's opinions you're referencing are just mistaken. I never see ANYONE outside of dedicated Yoshi mains actually pick up the character and try to put work in with him. Despite this, PLENTY of people say things like "Oh, Yoshi is just undeveloped/misunderstood/has hidden potential", but they don't even understand the character. People always say things like he has good damage output, good frame data (really?), strong attacks, he can faceroll his controller and still win, etc. But I don't see them taking Yoshi to tournaments. If he were that easy and that good and HAD that potential, surely SOME current top player would have picked him up to capitalize on everyone's lack of experience against this hidden tech Yoshi has and made some easy money.
But nobody has yet. Is Yoshi that strange to play? He's just got a funny jump, really. His shield's been normalized in this game! His grab is kinda bad, but so is ZSS's! That can't be the reason, right? No matter what I consider, it all comes down to Yoshi just not being good enough to invest time into from their perspective. And when you think about THAT, it really makes you wonder why people say "Yoshi is a hidden beast with plenty of untapped potential".
I think that the nerfs to some of his bad match ups will help but it doesn't change the fact that Yoshi has a hard time killing consistently and has a terrible grab, which I think will always be his downfall unless he gets buffed which is most likely not happening. Another thing to keep in mind is that not everybody was playing these characters in the first place and Yoshi mains still weren't able to get good results on a national level. If anything the nerf to sheik, mk, etc, will probably only help him locally.Could it be that 1.1.5 will help Yoshi out a bit? He may not have been directly buffed but some of his worst matchups (like Shiek and MK) got taken down a peg.
Yeah, pretty much every one of our match-up got hit to some degree (Cloud wasn't hurt as bad in singles compaired to the others though and Diddy wasn't touched, but that's always going to be the case). But in the long run it doesn't change much unless we step up our game and take advantage of it. The really good players will be strong regardless of nerfs, since they have Smash fundamentals down really well. We can't rely on a miracle patch or constant nerfing of better characters: in the end it comes down to how well we play.Could it be that 1.1.5 will help Yoshi out a bit? He may not have been directly buffed but some of his worst matchups (like Shiek and MK) got taken down a peg.
All of this was very well said.I don't quite get where this lack of kill options thing is coming from. Outside of having an advantageous position (relying on yoshis good edge guarding or anti-air tools), we still have stuff like jab 1 -> w/e, usmash, utilt -> uair, etc.
The major thing holding yoshi back at the moment is his lackluster neutral game against the high / top tiers. He has good movement and has a lot of unique strengths, but they don't intuitively work well together and are pretty risky. Yoshi players typically get carried by their ability to hard read the timing of when the opponent wants to do something. (I'm basically saying that yoshi players are flat out outplaying their opponent in neutral)
For example:
Yoshi vs mario on FD, and they're just outside of each other's smash & tilt ranges. Let's say that mario decides to dash at yoshi. What can yoshi do to stop this? A lot of things, actually. But if you consider all of the options that both characters have, yoshi loses this 'RPS' situation in a sense that his options cover less options than Mario's does, and your options are typically less rewarding. If mario shields, all of your attacks are unsafe (outside of a low reward dtilt that was done with godlike timing. But ofc if the mario player looks for this he can just focus on powershielding at the tipper range of dtilt). Well, we could just grab him, right? Going for a grab as yoshi is risky as hell, for a medium reward (yoshi is godlike at juggling, I feel like his advantage state is underrated). Grab will lose to variations on the timings of the opponent's approach, and typically it even gets stuffed by quick attacks (mario could also dash -> spot dodge to cover many options). Yoshis jab will also do poorly due to being unsafe on shield (mario will be sliding towards you), being low reward (unlikely to land a solid jab 1 -> follow up), and the attack has poor range. If mario also mixes in JC reverse usmash, we can get killed from having our pokes beaten out, or we'll lose stage position due to yoshis poor OoS game (can't punish mario usmash on shield, and screw using our terrible rolls). If yoshi tries to reposition himself, his options lose quite hard to whatever mario feels like doing in reaction to yoshi moving (our dash attack is unsafe on shield and whiff. Same with usmash. Dash / pivot grab is horribly unsafe. Ftilt is unsafe. Jumping puts us in bad spot. Egg toss is risky and isn't rewarding (tldr for most options lol). Etc)
(Basically, yoshi encounters these types of situations very frequently against good characters. Situations where his pool of options are arguably worse than the opponent's pool of options, even though they have a 'equal' position relative to each other and the stage. Yoshi also has surprisingly lackluster CQC options. He isn't dangerous at multiple spacings)
-On a side note, I feel like a lot of yoshis usually resort to short hopping away when in a bad position like this. Most of the time, we can get away with it because most people are bad at abusing yoshis somewhat mediocre landing options. Against someone that uses shield and anti-air well, we get kinda bodied.
With that said, how do we fix this? Probably through the use of yoshis movement. We need to be able to threaten the opponent proactively (ex. Running at you = I might dash attack. The opponent will pick an option to avoid that, so we have to use something that will cover their counter), and safely. This movement must also allow yoshi the ability to whiff punish pokes. What tools does yoshi have to do this with? Well, we've got a godlike run turnaround (sliding + access to our standing options + perfect pivot in place stops momentum + can crawl slide to retreat!), our dash attack goes a ****ing mile (dash grab is kind of long too), our perfect pivot is solid, we have an overall quick dash (solid extended dash dance / foxtrot), and our jump options are scary if the opponent decides to hard commit to something.
I've been thinking about this for weeks, but I'm frustrated and stuck tbh. I'd love to hear the thoughts of others on this topic, I'm stuck cycling over the same information and tactics over and over again with little to no progress...
When and where to use each tool and how they work together is so complicated (heavily changes depending on the MU...), and I feel like yoshi doesn't even have a proper poke (and although our movement options sound good on paper, outside of using foxtrot we can't change our positioning quickly enough to capitalize on the opportunities that we've created (perfect pivots have their momentum ruined when done after other movement options ).
The potential is there imo, it'll just take time to work this out. But I don't feel like there's anyone that wants to actively discuss this kind of stuff (and tbh most people don't understand fighting games well enough, too)
I agree that we can tend to exaggerate Yoshi's flaws but you seem to be doing the opposite now. Yoshi's shield breaks can be avoided and aren't very reliable aside from when they are used in specific situations. His command grab is slow (same problem as normal grab) and grants his opponents invincibility once they emerge, meaning he can't get any guaranteed followups (would you look at that, almost exactly the same problem as regular grab. Yoshi's main kill moves are powerful but they aren't safe or nearly as good as something like a kill setup off of grab or even a thrown item. 110 seems a little early to be killing a grounded midweight with a no rage up air, especially when factoring in DI. A tier list is meant to compare characters, one of the main things that makes a character considered good is a high position on a tier list. Therefore it is impossible to say Yoshi is good without first comparing him to other characters, who then may be seen as better.I feel like these boards compare yoshi to other characters too much instead of focusing on the unique tools your character has which is alot more than the vast majority of the cast. No yoshi doesn't have exactly what the top tiers has, but that doesn't make him bad by any means. Yoshi doesn't have to flail around in neutral, well spaced eggs guide and condition your opponent to go where they want to, and yoshi's air speed means he's fast enough to punish whiffs from a good distance away. Yoshi actually has safe pressure on shield AND an command grab AND two shield break moves, way more than most the cast can say. Yoshi's main problem is getting opponents off the ground, but when he does it can lead to very damaging strings and even death. He has jab to mixups (grab/dj nair/upsmash/dsmash/another jab,downb) and kill confirms off jab, fair, and eggs. SH airdodge upair into people kills Tink around 110 with no rage on smashville, upsmash beats anything trying to land in front of, on top of, or a little bit in the air behind yoshi and is invincible at his feet and is still strong af in the back hitbox.
On top of this he's heavy and so floaty he gets back for free many times, and rage yoshi can kill around 70, which is just a 2/3 strings with him.
Yoshi's a damn good character
There's nothing wrong with comparing him to other characters, it's only comparing him to top tiers and not the whole cast. If he had the same tools as what the top tiers have he'd probably be a top tier, but he doesn't, he actually has tools the top tiers don't have (command grab, great air mobility, heavy weight, usable shieldbreaking moves). I'm arguing to look at him from the tools he does have and not the ones he doesn't have.I agree that we can tend to exaggerate Yoshi's flaws but you seem to be doing the opposite now. Yoshi's shield breaks can be avoided and aren't very reliable aside from when they are used in specific situations. His command grab is slow (same problem as normal grab) and grants his opponents invincibility once they emerge, meaning he can't get any guaranteed followups (would you look at that, almost exactly the same problem as regular grab. Yoshi's main kill moves are powerful but they aren't safe or nearly as good as something like a kill setup off of grab or even a thrown item. 110 seems a little early to be killing a grounded midweight with a no rage up air, especially when factoring in DI. A tier list is meant to compare characters, one of the main things that makes a character considered good is a high position on a tier list. Therefore it is impossible to say Yoshi is good without first comparing him to other characters, who then may be seen as better.
Honestly, there's no point in comparing him to characters who are much lower tier/worse. We could spend all day marveling at having better mobility than Zelda, but it doesn't make Yoshi any better. His command grab as me and slush have stated, is once again, very slow, making it relatively predictable, and early nerfs on its range don't help either. Practically every top tier has good mobility, it is one of the main characteristics of being considered a good character. There only a few special exceptions who are outstanding enough in a different area to have poor mobility and still be considered top tier. Yoshi's weight is nice, but it gets rounded out by the floatyness, which ends up being a crippling weakness. Yoshi's kill confirms become worse and worse as you become aware of them and actively avoid them as a result. Many are not guaranteed or only guaranteed at specific percents, and all of them lose to that lovely R button. It's not just like we're complaining that Yoshi doesn't have the tools of top tiers, there are plenty of things high and mid tiers have Yoshi lacks, and would benefit from greatly.There's nothing wrong with comparing him to other characters, it's only comparing him to top tiers and not the whole cast. If he had the same tools as what the top tiers have he'd probably be a top tier, but he doesn't, he actually has tools the top tiers don't have (command grab, great air mobility, heavy weight, usable shieldbreaking moves). I'm arguing to look at him from the tools he does have and not the ones he doesn't have.
His command grab shines greatly from his air mobility and it being b-reversable in the air. You can still throw eggs where they'll appear from the egg, and generally are in a good position since they're were you want them-- the air, or if done by the ledge, offstage and now in an edgeguard scenario.
Yoshi has kill confirms off his jab and thrown eggs, grounded fair, uptilt, and rising up air. While they're not as "safe" as kill setups from a grab, yoshis plan isn't to get a grab. Yoshi has a way different game plan than the other top tiers, and while it may not be as "safe" or "good" compared to theirs, its still pretty good.
I don't think he necessarily needs grab combos, putting damage on isn't his primary problem. His primary problem is actually getting the KO, but giving him a kill throw or a kill confirm off a throw might break him. He does need better kill confirms, but I'm not sure whether getting them off grabs would be good for the game overall. His grab itself is pretty terribad though with little reward for it, so it might be feasible.I can see that. I do however think that it's not something that he needs like better kill confirms, grab combos, kill throw, etc.