Unleash the sword of seals [Deleted]

[Sauron_The_Great]

Sauron_The_Great submitted a new guide:

Unleash the sword of seals - A basic guide to roy

Many high-level players favor Marth over Roy. Marth is quicker, he combos easily, and is a great character for new players. Roy, on the other hand, is to Marth as Ganondorf is to Captain Falcon. He is slower, stronger, and more vulnerable. However, if one plays smart, Roy can be excellent. To start off, here's a list of Pros and Cons:
Pros:

• Stronger attacks
• Flare blade is almost a guaranteed kill if fully charged.
• Great reach
• Great grab reach
• one spike (tipped u-smash) and...

Read more about this guide...

 

[vZakat]

This is a horrible guide. All you did was list pros and cons, you didn't go into any detail about anything you said. A lot of what you said is wrong as well. Roy is not stronger than Marth. Most of Roy's moves do less percent damage and knockback than Marth's and he only matches Marth in a few moves (fsmash for example). Fox can combo/punish people with shine whether they get knocked down or slide from it so that's not really anything good to bring up. And the fact that you listed fully charged flare blade as a pro is laughable.

"Surprisingly, Roy can be considered better than Marth." This line alone completely invalidates your authority on Roy IMO. Roy isn't better than Marth. Roy doesn't have the potential to be better than Marth. Roy is bad and will always be bad. Your guide was basically an argument you would see on gfaqs in 2002.

It's good that you wanna help others with guides but I would suggest that you learn more about the game before writing any more guides (I read your other guides and that are just as bad as this one).

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

So, you are basing your argument on popular opinion, not fact. If you looked, most of the arguments for Marth are invalid. Also, Fully charged, flare blade is an OHKO. How is that a con??

 

[vZakat]

Flare blade takes 211 frames to fully charge. That's about 3.5 seconds. NOBODY in their right mind is going to be hit by that. My argument is the one based on fact, not yours. I'm going off of the frame data, tournament results and other info I've seen to form my opinion. I've never been the kind of person to jump on the band wagon of opinions.

Your arguments have no ground to stand on. You have no data to back you up. Marth isn't played more for some arbitrary reason like he's more popular or something. He's played more because he's better. People play what's good. The reason Roy's meta hasn't grown is because there isn't really anywhere for it to advance to while Marth's meta still has room to grow.

Granted, I am looking into improving Roy's meta but I don't expect to find much. Roy players won't get good by focusing on their character but on learning the ins and outs of smash itself. That's my opinion anyways...

 

[Oddyesy]

Gonna agree with @ vZakat here. You really learn just about nothing from the guide. Pros/cons hardly make up a competent guide.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Flare blade takes 211 frames to fully charge. That's about 3.5 seconds. NOBODY in their right mind is going to be hit by that. My argument is the one based on fact, not yours. I'm going off of the frame data, tournament results and other info I've seen to form my opinion. I've never been the kind of person to jump on the band wagon of opinions.

Your arguments have no ground to stand on. You have no data to back you up. Marth isn't played more for some arbitrary reason like he's more popular or something. He's played more because he's better. People play what's good. The reason Roy's meta hasn't grown is because there isn't really anywhere for it to advance to while Marth's meta still has room to grow.

Granted, I am looking into improving Roy's meta but I don't expect to find much. Roy players won't get good by focusing on their character but on learning the ins and outs of smash itself. That's my opinion anyways...

The bandwagon opinion is that Marth is better. Don't talk to me about bandwagon opinions.

 

[vZakat]

Yes the bandwagon opinion is that marth is better than roy. But marth being better than roy is also an actual fact. When two characters are different those differences will make one better than the other. In this case it just happens to be marth. As long as you think roy is as good or better than marth, you won't get anywhere with him. If you aren't willing to acknowledge a characters weaknesses you won't be able to play around them or play to your strengths.

 

[Oddyesy]

The bandwagon opinion is that Marth is better. Don't talk to me about bandwagon opinions.

It's not bandwagon opinion if it's true. Marth truly is better than Roy in every aspect

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Yes the bandwagon opinion is that marth is better than roy. But marth being better than roy is also an actual fact. When two characters are different those differences will make one better than the other. In this case it just happens to be marth. As long as you think roy is as good or better than marth, you won't get anywhere with him. If you aren't willing to acknowledge a characters weaknesses you won't be able to play around them or play to your strengths.

i agree Roy is not as good as Marth. If you rechecked the guide, i stated this in an edit.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

It's not bandwagon opinion if it's true. Marth truly is better than Roy in every aspect

Not every aspect. SHFFL, power in some cases

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

Sauron please make a guide for Fox next

 

[C-SAF]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-is-marth-better-than-roy.5035/

Everything in your guide was covered 13years ago

 

[CT_Emerl]

Flare blade takes 211 frames to fully charge. That's about 3.5 seconds. NOBODY in their right mind is going to be hit by that. My argument is the one based on fact, not yours. I'm going off of the frame data, tournament results and other info I've seen to form my opinion. I've never been the kind of person to jump on the band wagon of opinions.

Your arguments have no ground to stand on. You have no data to back you up. Marth isn't played more for some arbitrary reason like he's more popular or something. He's played more because he's better. People play what's good. The reason Roy's meta hasn't grown is because there isn't really anywhere for it to advance to while Marth's meta still has room to grow.

Granted, I am looking into improving Roy's meta but I don't expect to find much. Roy players won't get good by focusing on their character but on learning the ins and outs of smash itself. That's my opinion anyways...

Agreed but I still like roy

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Sauron please make a guide for Fox next

sarcasm or really??

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Agreed but I still like roy

Flare blade takes 211 frames to fully charge. That's about 3.5 seconds. NOBODY in their right mind is going to be hit by that. My argument is the one based on fact, not yours. I'm going off of the frame data, tournament results and other info I've seen to form my opinion. I've never been the kind of person to jump on the band wagon of opinions.

Your arguments have no ground to stand on. You have no data to back you up. Marth isn't played more for some arbitrary reason like he's more popular or something. He's played more because he's better. People play what's good. The reason Roy's meta hasn't grown is because there isn't really anywhere for it to advance to while Marth's meta still has room to grow.

Granted, I am looking into improving Roy's meta but I don't expect to find much. Roy players won't get good by focusing on their character but on learning the ins and outs of smash itself. That's my opinion anyways...

The whole reason Roys meta hasn't grown is because Most people play Marth. If , say, SephirothKen had picked up Roy, and played him a lot and people started to see that Roy could be good as well, Roys meta would be far bigger.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Nair and Usmash should be used more. also we need those first hit of Up+B rest punishes

 

[C-SAF]

The whole reason Roys meta hasn't grown is because Most people play Marth. If , say, SephirothKen had picked up Roy, and played him a lot and people started to see that Roy could be good as well, Roys meta would be far bigger.

Roys meta is very well developed. Check out Sethlon, Pvt. O'Malley, or M2K's Roy. Theres also tons of Roy info on the melee character boards. Saying every roy main that's ever existed sucked does not make this guide any better. You haven't heard of many Roy mains because they don't place well, not because they aren't good.

 

[Comet7]

Nair and Usmash should be used more. also we need those first hit of Up+B rest punishes

i'm pretty sure it involves two hits of the blazer.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Flare blade takes 211 frames to fully charge. That's about 3.5 seconds. NOBODY in their right mind is going to be hit by that. My argument is the one based on fact, not yours. I'm going off of the frame data, tournament results and other info I've seen to form my opinion. I've never been the kind of person to jump on the band wagon of opinions.

Your arguments have no ground to stand on. You have no data to back you up. Marth isn't played more for some arbitrary reason like he's more popular or something. He's played more because he's better. People play what's good. The reason Roy's meta hasn't grown is because there isn't really anywhere for it to advance to while Marth's meta still has room to grow.

Granted, I am looking into improving Roy's meta but I don't expect to find much. Roy players won't get good by focusing on their character but on learning the ins and outs of smash itself. That's my opinion anyways...

A sleeping pink blob will get hit by it.....

 

[C-SAF]

A sleeping pink blob will get hit by it.....

His flare blade can only punish rest if it misses. There's not enough time to charge it if you respawn.
Funny add on, I pretty sure Roy's range is so balls that puffs back air actually out spaces his sword.

 

[Spak]

A sleeping pink blob will get hit by it.....

Since Jigglypuff has 249 frames in Rest, the time to start charging is 11 frames, 211 frames is charging, and then the hitbox starts on frame 5 and it looks like it would only reach in front about frame 7, you have 20 frames to react. That's a third of a second to get in the correct position and start charging your blade. With that in mind, a fully charged F-Smash would probably be a more reliable punish.

Data from:
standardtoaster's Roy Hitboxes and Frame Data
Massive's Jigglypuff Hitboxes and Frame Data (NSF56k)

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Roys meta is very well developed. Check out Sethlon, Pvt. O'Malley, or M2K's Roy. Theres also tons of Roy info on the melee character boards. Saying every roy main that's ever existed sucked does not make this guide any better. You haven't heard of many Roy mains because they don't place well, not because they aren't good.

never said that, bub.

 

[C-SAF]

never said that, bub.

U did, bub.

The whole reason Roys meta hasn't grown is because Most people play Marth. If , say, SephirothKen had picked up Roy, and played him a lot and people started to see that Roy could be good as well, Roys meta would be far bigger.

U basically said nobody at Kens level of skill plays Roy when that's not true. Sethlon and M2K are both above Ken's skill level.

My problem with this statement comes more from the fact that it shows how little you know about roy, but your trying to write a guide on him and tell others abut his untapped potential. If u had done any research whatsoever I would assume u would be familiar with at least one top level Roy player. This rings true for all of your guides actually. I'd respect your effort more if you put any time into research before writing these.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

U did, bub.



U basically said nobody at Kens level of skill plays Roy when that's not true. Sethlon and M2K are both above Ken's skill level.

My problem with this statement comes more from the fact that it shows how little you know about roy, but your trying to write a guide on him and tell others abut his untapped potential. If u had done any research whatsoever I would assume u would be familiar with at least one top level Roy player. This rings true for all of your guides actually. I'd respect your effort more if you put any time into research before writing these.

I disagree.
People don't play roy because other more dominant players, like Ken and M2K, choose to play Marth.
Please do some research before getting insulted by the truth and then insulting a nice person.

 

[C-SAF]

I disagree.
People don't play roy because other more dominant players, like Ken and M2K, choose to play Marth.
Please do some research before getting insulted by the truth and then insulting a nice person.

Is this really a thing that people believe about Roy? Does everyone think Ken is still champion of the world or something? Did I get put in a time machine to 2006?

And if ur talking insults here, I do believe it was Sauron_The_Great that threw the first bub.

 

[vZakat]

How about instead of arguing about why roy's meta isn't developed or if it even is developed, why don't y'all use that energy to actually grow his meta (if you think it can grow).

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

How about instead of arguing about why roy's meta isn't developed or if it even is developed, why don't y'all use that energy to actually grow his meta (if you think it can grow).

Stay outta it, bub.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Is this really a thing that people believe about Roy? Does everyone think Ken is still champion of the world or something? Did I get put in a time machine to 2006?

And if ur talking insults here, I do believe it was Sauron_The_Great that threw the first bub.

Bub, SephirothKen is still probably good enough to whip you six ways to sunday. I was just using him as an example of someone who could have taken Roy's meta and made it bigger.

 

[Oddyesy]

Stay outta it, bub.

Loool ok.

 

[NIFOFD]

Since Jigglypuff has 249 frames in Rest, the time to start charging is 11 frames, 211 frames is charging, and then the hitbox starts on frame 5 and it looks like it would only reach in front about frame 7, you have 20 frames to react. That's a third of a second to get in the correct position and start charging your blade. With that in mind, a fully charged F-Smash would probably be a more reliable punish.

Data from:
standardtoaster's Roy Hitboxes and Frame Data
Massive's Jigglypuff Hitboxes and Frame Data (NSF56k)

Assuming you aren't on dreamland (maybe FoD? Haven't tested there), The optimal rest punish would be to hit jigglypuff with the first hitbox of reverse blazer (Doing so will 1HK jiggs due to her light weight without having to charge an attack). Granted flare blade is way cooler (and you can also release it a little bit before 211 frames).

The only way (unless you read a rest attempt) I see someone hitting a flare blade as a punish is off of a shield break or something. I'm not even sure that would work because I don't know how long the stun after a shield break lasts (and breaking a shield with Roy would be about as hard as trying to hit the flare blade 1hk anyways...)

20XX Roy will consist of Roy breaking Peach's shield with her own Mr. Saturn and going for the flare blade punish. Calling it now folks.

 

[Oddyesy]

Assuming you aren't on dreamland (maybe FoD? Haven't tested there), The optimal rest punish would be to hit jigglypuff with the first hitbox of reverse blazer (Doing so will 1HK jiggs due to her light weight without having to charge an attack). Granted flare blade is way cooler (and you can also release it a little bit before 211 frames).

The only way (unless you read a rest attempt) I see someone hitting a flare blade as a punish is off of a shield break or something. I'm not even sure that would work because I don't know how long the stun after a shield break lasts (and breaking a shield with Roy would be about as hard as trying to hit the flare blade 1hk anyways...)

20XX Roy will consist of Roy breaking Peach's shield with her own Mr. Saturn and going for the flare blade punish. Calling it now folks.

I think most of the stages have too high of a ceiling for the super launcher, but I'll test for you, seeing as I'm on 20XX right now haha

 

[NIFOFD]

I think most of the stages have too high of a ceiling for the super launcher, but I'll test for you, seeing as I'm on 20XX right now haha

In the event that you can't flareblade and aren't on a map you can reverse blazer jiggs on, do you think the optimal rest punish would be f-smash or d-smash? I guess it sort of depends on other factors as well, but I can see d-smash being good for trying to kill of the top.

I usually only end up going for reverse blazer on Yoshi's, Pokemon, and sometimes FD. Dunno if it works for FD (have gotten it a few times OoS but I've never done a rest punish so it's possible they could DI), battlefield (would go for it on platforms), or FoD (maybe the top platform?).

 

[Oddyesy]

Sorry for the DP, but here's what I found:

Battlefield: Impossible on main platform, but doable from the lower floating platforms (and up, but that's a safe assumption to make from now on)
Final Destination: Yup
Dreamland 64: Only possible on the top platform
Pokemon Stadium: Possible from the main platform
Yoshi's Story: Confirmed (I tested it when Puff was at the bottom of the slanted ground on the right of the stage)
FoD: Not possible from ground level, but it's possible at least from the left floating platform's starting position.

So it technically works on all of the stages, but it's very situational in some of them.

3/7's not bad.

EDIT: This is with no dee eye.

 

[Oddyesy]

In the event that you can't flareblade and aren't on a map you can reverse blazer jiggs on, do you think the optimal rest punish would be f-smash or d-smash? I guess it sort of depends on other factors as well, but I can see d-smash being good for trying to kill of the top.

I usually only end up going for reverse blazer on Yoshi's, Pokemon, and sometimes FD. Dunno if it works for FD (have gotten it a few times OoS but I've never done a rest punish so it's possible they could DI), battlefield (would go for it on platforms), or FoD (maybe the top platform?).

I just tested on FoD, and I think that by the time Puff dies off the top from dsmash it's way past the % that's needed for an fsmash kill. So just charge one up and let 'er rip.

 

[NIFOFD]

Sorry for the DP, but here's what I found:

Battlefield: Impossible on main platform, but doable from the lower floating platforms (and up, but that's a safe assumption to make from now on)
Final Destination: Yup
Dreamland 64: Only possible on the top platform
Pokemon Stadium: Possible from the main platform
Yoshi's Story: Confirmed (I tested it when Puff was at the bottom of the slanted ground on the right of the stage)
FoD: Not possible from ground level, but it's possible at least from the left floating platform's starting position.

So it technically works on all of the stages, but it's very situational in some of them.

3/7's not bad.

EDIT: This is with no dee eye.

Thanks for the info, never would have guessed it was possible at all on dreamland. I'll test everything later with DI which will rule out a lot of those options (pretty sure jiggs survives on FD with DI).

In this matchup, I would Ideally go to Yoshi's or Pokemon, barring those two it's FD (personal pref.). Next choice would be battlefield, then FoD, then dreamland.

If someone makes me go dreamland and they are any good at all I'll probably just sandbag and try to condition them for the next game or something...

 

[C-SAF]

Bub, SephirothKen is still probably good enough to whip you six ways to sunday. I was just using him as an example of someone who could have taken Roy's meta and made it bigger.

Ken wouldn't make roy a better character or change the way he is fundamentally played. And kens ability to beat me doesn't change the fact that M2K and Sethlon have extremely well developed roys. They have already done the work that u say ken would have done with roys meta.

Playing roy for a few hours doesn't really give u the ability to criticize the work people have done with the character for 15 years. Take the criticism u deserve for your lackluster "guide" and stop throwing a fit everytime someone points out a flaw.

 

[Spak]

(and you can also release it a little bit before 211 frames).

Isn't the optimal flare blade frame 209? So the best possible punish would require 18 frames. The more I learn about Roy, the more I discover the developers overlooked with his moveset (unintentional upsmash spike if they try to SDI to the edge, crazy first hotbox of the reverse blazer, accidentally making him worse than his non-fire counterpart, etc.)

 

[NIFOFD]

All this talk of flareblade has made my new goal to hit it in a match. I think I'm gonna get an ICs player to wobble someone on last stock in doubles so I can do the charge.

 

[vZakat]

Isn't the optimal flare blade frame 209?

A 41% flare blade has the greatest knock back for flare blade and is on frame 210.

Depending on the percent I would opt for dsmash over fsmash or reverse blazer but that's just my personal preference. *shrugs*

Also puff can def DI reverse blazer on FD but can't on yoshi's or PS

 

[NIFOFD]

A 41% flare blade has the greatest knock back for flare blade and is on frame 210.

Depending on the percent I would opt for dsmash over fsmash or reverse blazer but that's just my personal preference. *shrugs*

Also puff can def DI reverse blazer on FD but can't on yoshi's or PS

Thanks for the clarification about FD. I usually end up playing on either yoshi's or pokemon in this matchup anyways so it's good to know that I can rely on it there. Would you mind elaborating on why you prefer dsmash to fsmash? Does it just kill off of the top at lower percents in most cases? One of my concerns with fsmash is that jiggs could DI/SDI into the stage and tech (not sure if this would work or not).