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Unleash the sword of seals [Deleted]

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vZakat

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dsmash kills off the top easier than fsmash does on the sides in most cases. If I'm near the edge and think an fsmash is better I may do that instead. Teching the floor from an fsmash would be insanely difficult and only doable at lower percents like 30% or less. Slanted floors can make the tech easier and doable at a bit higher percents but still highly unlikely to see.
 

NIFOFD

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dsmash kills off the top easier than fsmash does on the sides in most cases. If I'm near the edge and think an fsmash is better I may do that instead. Teching the floor from an fsmash would be insanely difficult and only doable at lower percents like 30% or less. Slanted floors can make the tech easier and doable at a bit higher percents but still highly unlikely to see.
I appreciate the insight. I suppose in the situations where one would fsmash that there wouldn't really be any chance of teching the floor anyways.

I should probably try to avoid turning this post into a Roy/Jiggs MU discussion.
 

vZakat

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Well if you wanna talk more about the match up or any other match up just post in the "Roy's match up chart" thread. I'll go into more detail there since it's kind of off topic here lol.

Do we even have a topic here though? Maybe talking about what should be in the guide instead if why what's in it now is questionable? idk
 

NIFOFD

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I mean, there are advantages that Roy has over Marth, and you can do pretty well with Roy in the competitive world (just not at the higher/highest levels of competition). It's really easy, especially when you don't have good people to play, to say to yourself that Roy really is a viable character and that the only reason he isn't used as Marth is because of his lack of a developed metagame.

There was a time (albeit brief and a long time ago) that I thought that Roy had loads of untapped potential and that he could become relevant in the current/future metagame. The reality of the situation is that once you really start to use Roy in tourneys you are going to have to deal with his weaknesses (which good players will exploit). I had a great time playing friendlies with a Samus player a few weeks ago trying to gain some knowledge about the matchup, but the longer we played, the more familiar he became with the matchup as well. He knew how to cut off my options with ccing and I found that taking a game was very difficult (I lost frequently).

The thing about the Samus player was that I did not feel he was at all above my level of play even though he repeatedly 1,2, or 3 stocked me and I won about 2 games of the maybe dozen that we played. Could I have won? Surely, but I would have to be a notably more skilled player to do so. I'm fairly confident I could have won the majority of the games with Marth.

I dedicate my time to Roy, I love the character and I highly respect the people that put effort into him, but even with about a year of Roy play down (limited I know) I still can outperform my Roy with the Marth I put about 4 days of work into (and never practice).

To all of you out there looking to improve Roy, that's great and I wish you the best. Nobody more than me wants to see our boy be relevant in competitive play, but just understand that you aren't the first to attempt to take his play to a higher level. There are fundamental flaws in this character that will limit you greatly.

What this guide needs is to be more than just a pro/con list. Roy has strengths: go in depth with his moveset and how to take advantage of his shffl. Go in depth with how to space all the various moves and what you can do off of a hit confirm (not much unless it's d-tilt or maybe dair). Talk about stage striking in various matchups (I live or die by Yoshi's). Talk about Roy's strong matchups (typically still disadvantageous but some aren't absolutely terrible). Teach people have to take advantage of Roy's movement and great grab range.

Even more important, talk about Roy's weaknesses. You will never have any success with a low tier if you solely play to the strengths of the character. Roy has issues with his character design that need to be acknowledged. Address the combo game (or lack thereof). Talk some about Roy's bad matchups (Pretty much everyone not trash tier). Explain how to deal with crouch cancel happy opponents.

It's great that there is info about how Roy differs from Marth (and in a few instances is better), but it means very little if there isn't any info on how to take advantage of his strengths and avoid his weaknesses. Above all, don't try to convince people that Roy is a viable alternative to Marth in competitive play: he is not played for good reason (many people have tried to at varying levels of success, but none have done so at the highest levels of play).

Also, putting flare blade 1HKO as a significant reason why Roy is as good as Marth really just goes to show how much worse he is.
 

vZakat

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Very well put. Playing around your weaknesses is more important than playing towards your strengths, I think. Knowing your limits and not putting yourself in bad positions is crucially important. When your opponent knows your weaknesses you can use them to bait them but putting yourself in seemingly unsafe positions then turning the tables (not easy to do though).

I've gotten to the point where my roy is much better than any other character I play. When I think about getting good I think about improving at melee not improving with roy. I'm not trying to make him good or anything, he's just the character I chose to play. A bad choice but it's too late to change now lol.
 

Oddyesy

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Oddyesy
The thing about the Samus player was that I did not feel he was at all above my level of play even though he repeatedly 1,2, or 3 stocked me and I won about 2 games of the maybe dozen that we played. Could I have won? Surely, but I would have to be a notably more skilled player to do so. I'm fairly confident I could have won the majority of the games with Marth.

I dedicate my time to Roy, I love the character and I highly respect the people that put effort into him, but even with about a year of Roy play down (limited I know) I still can outperform my Roy with the Marth I put about 4 days of work into (and never practice).
Yup. I actually want to get good at the game, so I've decided to co main Marth as well, and 2 days into playing him I'm already way past what I could do with Roy. I love the boy and he's hella fun, but in the end he's not gonna cut it if you want to do well in the grand scheme of things. It's sad, but it's the way it is.

But hey, I still play him about as much as I play Marth, and getting better at Marth will make me better at Roy since they're both pretty fundamentally based. Also when you guys play Marth you should play Red Marth to commemorate our boy
 

Spak

Hero of Neverwinter
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Also, I would like to note that I have learned more about Roy in the comments of the guide than in the guide itself.
 

vZakat

Half Genie
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Marth is to different for me to play both him and roy. Falco and sheik are my top tiers of choice but my roy is much better than either of them so I only play them in friendlies lol.
 

NIFOFD

Smash Apprentice
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Marth is to different for me to play both him and roy. Falco and sheik are my top tiers of choice but my roy is much better than either of them so I only play them in friendlies lol.
I think if I really commit to a top tier secondary/comain I'll move away from Marth just so I don't screw up my Roy play. It's probable that I'll end up just learning Falco or something (the style of play is so much different what with lasers and all so it should be fun).
 

Oddyesy

Smash Ace
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Oddyesy
I think if I really commit to a top tier secondary/comain I'll move away from Marth just so I don't screw up my Roy play. It's probable that I'll end up just learning Falco or something (the style of play is so much different what with lasers and all so it should be fun).
Honestly people keep saying that since I'm co maining the FE boys I'm going to have a hard time switching between them, but I have had little to no problems at all.

Here's a simple flowchart: Does the current character have fire?
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Yes No
| |
| |

Congratulations! You can now dtilt and DED excessively! |
Congratulations! You now have useful moves other than dtilt and DED!

EDIT: gdi Smashboards why would you do this to my beautiful flowchart

the Oddyesy flowchart MS Paint edition coming to theaters near you soon
 
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