Undertale Mafia, 13 man! Game over! Town wins!

[ranmaru]

Not just knowing their character, knowing I targeted them. I purposely didn't state who I targeted, and wanted a mass claim. Scum does not know who I targetted, or that I might know who their character is. They either have to claim their actual character, or fake claim. If whatever someone (I targetted) says something differently then what I saw from the mod, it means they are lying.

 

[ranmaru]

Gheb, I really need your 2 cents here. It'd be much appreciated.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Oh. I didn't even think about it in terms of them having a fake claim that would involve a different character. Do you think that scum would have had a fake claim given to them by the mod? If that's the case then I really did screw things up...

 

[ranmaru]

Depends if the mod thinks they needed fake claims or not. I wouldn't know for sure until seeing everyone's reaction though.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Gotcha. I wasn't even thinking about it in terms of that being a possibility, so I apologize for my oversight on that. I never even remember that being a thing. While we're both here, did you already answer why you think Gheb is town now? Or are you saving that for later?

 

[ranmaru]

I am saving that for later. I am more interested in who is most scum, and I want to see your re-read results.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Can do. I'm interested in seeing why you think he's town because something occurred to me over the night phase that makes me think I may have a biased read on him and I need some perspective, but I want to re-read before I explain more. I will hopefully have it finished before I go to bed tonight. For now, I'm going to head out unless you have any questions for me because I don't think there's much else to discuss until Gheb and especially Chibo post more.

 

[ranmaru]

No questions at the moment, but, 'occurred' as in night action, or just 'you suddenly thought of something'? That's it, back to work.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Occurred as in thought of something. It was like... a realization of why I think that Gheb could be scum despite how I do like parts of his play, but I want to see if it's founded or unfounded.

 

[ranmaru]

What made you realize that?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I like to do just like... A stream of consciousness thing before I start re-reads in order to clear my head. I just write down anything that comes to mind regarding the game in hopes that I can get my thoughts clearer to myself and so that I can see if there's anything that stands out to me or if I need to look more into something. I did something similar when I was looking into JD more, but then I knew what to look for. This time I'm not so sure. It might even be nothing, but I will let you know.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

EBWOP: "Knew what to look for" in terms of, I knew that I vaguely remembered something weird about JD's voting history and so I could look at that to help clarify.

 

[ranmaru]

Let me summarize. I'm getting that you thought "ah, Gheb could be town, let me look for evidence as to why he may be more town than scum." While you thought "Oh JD is certainly scum for this specific action/play." Is that it? Can you refresh me what that thing was for JD, and why you came to the conclusion Gheb may be town without having anything to base that off? Stream of consciousness is a good opportunity to think about it but it isn't what would make you CONSIDER he may be town. Also, I think that is a good habit to have generally.

 

[ranmaru]

I mean the opposite with the gheb example, by the way. "Could be scum,more scum than town, etc"

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

It's not really that. I don't really know how to explain it without outright telling you, which I don't want to do until I have more of an understanding of it myself, but... I don't think I'm explaining myself well.

Like, I was thinking that Gheb is likely scum, but I didn't really have enough reasons to justify to myself why I thought he was scum. There were some reasons, but not many that I could come up with at that point, and I was thinking I might need to re-consider my reads again because maybe I just wasn't seeing the big picture. Then, I had that realization, a sort of clarity about why I have a bad feeling about Gheb, and it's something that I want to look into because I think it could maybe show that he is scum, but it could also be... inadmissible, I guess is the word I'm looking for. It does have to deal with his specific actions but they're less clear/obvious than, say, voting history.

With JD, I was thinking it was weird that he had voted for J after not really showing any real interest in him, and then he never really came back to explain or justify it. So, I knew that I could look into how he had voted and see what that would show in terms of his alignment, and I saw that he had most often voted for the popular wagon only after somebody else had voted, and then he would give some reasoning but not really go beyond that. With Gheb, it's somewhat based on/inspired by something I think you said yesterDay and it's more of his actions over a period of time instead of a few instances. Does that make any sense? I may be making this more confusing than it actually is, but I'm not sure how else to explain it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not really sure how the way Sang 'interfered' with the claiming process is supposed to be a problem. The way I see it only one out of Ran and Chibo could've been cleared either way?

Hypothetical: Had Chibo claimed before Ran presented his NA result ... Ran could've cleared Chibo by confirimg the claim. However, Ran himself still would've not been clear because he could've still been scum lying in that scenario. Our current scenario however is that Ran claimed his NA result before Chibo did his full claim ... that allows Chibo to clear Ran by confirming that his result is correct. That would clear Ran but not Chibo [if Chibo states that Ran's result is wrong then it proves that the final scumbag is between Chibo and Ran which is also helpful].

So basically we're just waiting on Chibo to verify/falsify Ran's claim in which case Ran will be cleared but Chibo won't. Better than nothing. Not 100% sure why we'd assume malintention on Sang's part in this scenario. Both her and Ran's pov are understandable. Ran was obviously more interested in seeing Chibo cleared or exposed as scum and Sang finally wanted clarity over Chibo's slot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I will say, however, that I am not very fond of Sang's play. It's irritating how long she's been keeping her read on me pretty much entirely up in the air and how consistently she has been reading Ran as a town read regardless of the circumstances. Both stances strike me as curious at this point and - depending on Chibo's claim - she may actually be the one who has the most explaining to do out of all of us. This is also with regards to her supposedly protecting Ran every Night phase from N2 onwards. The thought process behind it doesn't particularly convince me. Sure, it's consistent with her claim that she's been reading Ran as town all along but by the time he claimed to have been RB'd it should've been clear to her that Chibo wouldn't be a likely NK target until the roleblocker dies.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So uh ... I guess we're just waiting on Chibo to claim so we can see where things are going from there. I just hope he shows up before he gets modkilled >_<

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, hold on just a second.

Sang, do you know whether you'll be informed whether you were hit by a bullet or not?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I just asked that because I have not yet been informed one way or another. So, either Ran or I was targeted (is that the right grammar?) or there was no NK.

 

[ranmaru]

The thought process behind it doesn't particularly convince me. Sure, it's consistent with her claim that she's been reading Ran as town all along but by the time he claimed to have been RB'd it should've been clear to her that Chibo Ran wouldn't be a likely NK target until the roleblocker dies.

I fixed that for you. I like this point though, can you talk about this Sang? I may have been more annoyed at her interference than seeing how suspicious it was. (Which is why I say I didn't trust her approach, and it will spark me to look at her a little deeper) Annoyed at blowing the opportunity to catch Chibo. That's all.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I just asked that because I have not yet been informed one way or another. So, either Ran or I was targeted (is that the right grammar?) or there was no NK.

Bardull may handle things different from what other mods do ... but normally you're informed that you've been hit by a bullet and that your BP status disappears. If not it's gonna be a huge guessing game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[Also, I'm pretty sure it's right grammar. If you leave out the "Ran or"-part the sentence would still be gramatically correct.]

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Scratch that, apparently my bulletproof vest wasn't popped, but I don't know anything beyond that.

I will say, however, that I am not very fond of Sang's play. It's irritating how long she's been keeping her read on me pretty much entirely up in the air and how consistently she has been reading Ran as a town read regardless of the circumstances. Both stances strike me as curious at this point and - depending on Chibo's claim - she may actually be the one who has the most explaining to do out of all of us. This is also with regards to her supposedly protecting Ran every Night phase from N2 onwards. The thought process behind it doesn't particularly convince me. Sure, it's consistent with her claim that she's been reading Ran as town all along but by the time he claimed to have been RB'd it should've been clear to her that Chibo wouldn't be a likely NK target until the roleblocker dies.

I mean, you don't have to be fond of it but I'd rather be honest and say that I really don't know rather than try to say you're scum when I'm not even sure if I'm even behind it or not. The only thing stopping me from having a solid read on you right now is not having looked back at your previous play, which I haven't been able to do because life is... hectic right now, to say the least. Nothing Ran has done has really changed my town read on him, but I've already talked about that yesterDay (at least to the extent that I can before I read; which, I apologize to keep using that as an excuse but that's just what it is right now).

As for why I protected Ran N2, it was because I knew (or, at least thought I knew) that the NK would be a toss-up between Ran or Rake, as their slots had both claimed D1 (and those two roles, if working together, would make town a force to be reckoned with). I thought that scum would decide to keep Rake around more because he was a possible lynch target for many people (at least, at the time), and so the smarter thing for scum to do, from my standpoint, would be to RB Rake and NK Ran. I was incorrect in my logic, unfortunately, which led to us losing 2 people. N3 onward, there was no RB and I wanted Ran to have a chance to show us something.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

EBWOP: Led to us losing 2 people in that, if I had instead chosen to protect Rake, we might have only lost Spak. That wording was off, sorry.

 

[ranmaru]

I thought that scum would decide to keep Rake around more because he was a possible lynch target for many people (at least, at the time), and so the smarter thing for scum to do, from my standpoint, would be to RB Rake and NK Ran..

I was already roleblocked, so why not assume that it might happen again? Also, why not target Kary?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I'm still working on my re-read currently but I'm having a hard time focusing on anything, so I'm just gonna try to get half way through and then do the rest tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.

And, Ran, in response to that, it was a misjudgement on my part. I thought that it would be more likely for you to be NK'd because people were reading you more as town at that point than as scum, and so it would have been easier for scum to get a ML on Rake if they kept him around than if they kept you around. As for Kary, at that point I was still kind of nervous about her slot, and I didn't know that she was a PR. You were my safest bet in both instances, and I didn't want to take any chances. I thought that scum would target you because you had the chance to either clear yourself or clear somebody else.

 

[ranmaru]

Can you post whatever you have right now, Sang?

@ChiboSempai: Get in here.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Unless you can give me a good reason or unless you really want it right now, I'd be more comfortable waiting. I'm just getting to the end of D1 and I want to be able to give clearer thoughts on everybody.

But, I don't want to stall the game too much (since we don't really know when Chibo is going to get back, and I don't want to postpone this any longer than we have to), so I may post what I was talking about with respect to my Gheb thing, as I've kind of narrowed down what I was talking about earlier. I did an ISO before my re-read, so it doesn't necessarily take into account the full picture, but... I don't know.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

"Unless you give me a good reason" sounds a little confrontational. Not intended that way.

 

[ranmaru]

Yes, I want it right now. I accept the fact it may be raw and not as pretty. Just post part of it, quickly. I want to see your thought process.

Anyway, Ran, you think that Chibo is more likely to be scum even though he hammered on scum when he could have forced a NL? Even over Gheb? (Having this null slot is killer ;-

Also, can you talk more about this?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I'll answer the second question first, as the first part will take a bit more time. From my perspective, Chibo could have easily just not come back into thread. He hadn't really been here much at all for that Day, so we wouldn't have thought too too much of it if he just didn't come back. Since Gheb wasn't posting (I believe he was asleep and/or simply unable to) and since it didn't seem like Ryu was going to vote or post anymore, there was nobody here to get any other lynch going besides... yours, IIRC. It would have been pretty gutsy if scum had let us NL, so I'm not entirely clearing Chibo, but I think that it could have ended up being pretty bad for town if Chibo hadn't come in.

 

[ranmaru]

What do you think of a no lynch?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

For toDay? Or in general?

 

[ranmaru]

Today. 10char

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I'd rather not. From a personal standpoint, I'm getting burnt out with this game and next week I have to start doing focus groups for my senior thesis, so I'll be really busy with that. From a game standpoint, I'd still not because I think we'd just end up going on a cycle of no lynch, no night kill, no lynch, no night kill, etc. I mean, it may give you the chance to investigate more people, which could be useful in possibly catching somebody in a lie, but besides that I see no benefit, especially if we have a player that still hardly posts anything at all. I'm curious though. What do you think of a NL?

 

[ranmaru]

It'd give me a chance to gather more information, which would make it so we have a better chance at winning. If we mislynched today we'd lose, so better in trying a no lynch. If you can protect that is even better.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Yes, I want it right now. I accept the fact it may be raw and not as pretty. Just post part of it, quickly. I want to see your thought process.

It's not "not pretty". It's just not complete at all. I'll go into it a bit now because, as I said, I don't want it to stall and at least I can work through it here as I'm working through it by myself. I have to go to bed after this, though, because I need to be up in a few hours and I can't miss class again.

What I'm looking into with Gheb specifically is how he interacts with JD and with Ryu throughout the game. The clarity that I came to is that, during the last game that I played with Gheb, we were both scum and I found his scum-play very particular and intriguing in that he basically never interacted with me, he would shut me down, and he only really threw any suspicion at me when other people were starting to. It occurred to me that he may have done the same thing this game, which was inspired by you saying yesterDay that Gheb was distancing himself from... I believe it was Dietz.

All of this is meta and therefore I have determined that by itself it's kind of useless (at least to me, as there is no guarantee that his playstyle hasn't changed; it was also a different style game and much shorter), but I've been looking into it all the same during this game. When I ISO'd him, I found that for all of D1 he never really talks to Dietz (the one time he does, it's Dietz questioning him but then Dietz never follows up or even acknowledges it). He calls people's reads on Dietz BS early D2, but then doesn't clarify further (except to say that Dietz hasn't done anything to warrant pro-town credit), and he again doesn't attempt to interact with Dietz. The only time I saw him pushing for Ryu was when he was saying Ran vs Ryu was SvS at the beginning of D3 (at which point he was focused on you being more likely to be scum over Ryu), and he only truly focused Ryu after we lynched Dietz. From what I have seen, he hardly ever directly interacted with either Ryu or Dietz, and they often didn't interact with him either. Even excluding meta, it just seems really weird to me.

Make of that what you will; I don't know what to make of it just yet, but I have no brain power to think anymore. I still haven't gotten to the point that you replaced in for Soup, and I still have problems with Gheb's D1 play, so not much has changed during my full re-read.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I don't think we'd necessarily lose on a mislynch toDay, especially if I could protect the right person, but it's not something I want to test. I don't know. There's benefits, but I don't want to drag this out more. We also don't know that somebody wouldn't just claim their character and a different role. There's too many unknowns for me to be comfortable with that.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Also, I don't even know if I'm making any sense in my 1478. I'll try to clarify anything before I fall asleep, but I can't make any promises.