Undertale Mafia, 13 man! Game over! Town wins!

[ranmaru]

I don't think we'd necessarily lose on a mislynch toDay, especially if I could protect the right person, but it's not something I want to test. I don't know. There's benefits, but I don't want to drag this out more..

It's possible we can lose today. If you can protect (with a 1-shot BP), it helps to no lynch because I can gather more information. If scum does not night kill, better for us. We can no lynch forever until the end of time. I'm kidding of course. I as well do not want to drag it, but I don't want to lose it if we can play it safe and optimally. I would like to hear Gheb's thoughts on this of course, as he opposes a no lynch.

 

[CT Chia]

I'm here, and I've read up on today. Prepared to claim as needed.

I'm not really sure how the way Sang 'interfered' with the claiming process is supposed to be a problem. The way I see it only one out of Ran and Chibo could've been cleared either way?

Hypothetical: Had Chibo claimed before Ran presented his NA result ... Ran could've cleared Chibo by confirimg the claim. However, Ran himself still would've not been clear because he could've still been scum lying in that scenario. Our current scenario however is that Ran claimed his NA result before Chibo did his full claim ... that allows Chibo to clear Ran by confirming that his result is correct. That would clear Ran but not Chibo [if Chibo states that Ran's result is wrong then it proves that the final scumbag is between Chibo and Ran which is also helpful].

So basically we're just waiting on Chibo to verify/falsify Ran's claim in which case Ran will be cleared but Chibo won't. Better than nothing. Not 100% sure why we'd assume malintention on Sang's part in this scenario. Both her and Ran's pov are understandable. Ran was obviously more interested in seeing Chibo cleared or exposed as scum and Sang finally wanted clarity over Chibo's slot.

However, this makes sense, and unless I've missed it twice, I don't believe Ran has said who I am yet. What would you all rather happen? Ran says my character first then I confirm/deny with my role, or I full claim and then Ran confirms/denies it? I'm fine with either method, I can see the ups and downs to both.

Also, can we get a summary of all the night actions performed by everyone once all claimed then to make sure we're not missing anything here?

 

[ranmaru]

Claim now.

 

[ranmaru]

What is taking you so long, cat got your tongue?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Chibo just go ahead and claim.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Chibo ... I really hope you're trolling right now. Like, there's no good reason for you to show up and then NOT claim after we've concluded that's exactly what we're on.

 

[ranmaru]

All it did was slow down the progression of this game.

 

[CT Chia]

I wanted to wait for more than just Ran to say one way or the other, then I wasn't here for a couple hours because of work.

I'm Temmie, VT

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's what Ran claimed you are. So at least we know his roleclaim is accurate now.

 

[ranmaru]

Indeed. So thoughts guys? No lynch?

Chibo, who is scum?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Chibo, have you actually read up or did you just skim? Because I have a hard time believing that you've read when you missed two pretty big things that you were requesting/talking about.

 

[ranmaru]

I am pretty sure he would look first before claiming his character, even if only skimming. I also think he is buddying gheb a bit.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

He may be, but I don't really see how that's advantageous to him at this point.

Also, Ran, I'm still reading through (I think I'm only on pg 15 unfortunately) but I was wondering about your role. Soup claimed that you were flavor cop, to which Rake later claimed Town Scientist which was also a flavor role (voyeur). This is me being a little lazy, but did you ever talk about it any more/explain your role any more/is there anything more you can explain about it?

 

[ranmaru]

My role pm indeed states I am a flavor cop. All I get is flavor character, though. Rake got setup information.

 

[ranmaru]

Basically the mod says I get the flavor role but all I get is the chacracter.

 

[ranmaru]

By the way, we have until Tuesday to decide on what to do (who to lynch or to no lynch or not).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't see how a no lynch would really help us. Care to explain why we'd consider that option?

I'm also not sure how much the massclaim really helped us tbh. Looks like it only raised more questions, at least for me.

 

[CT Chia]

I have been reading/skimming, but usually my comprehension is a little poor since I'm generally doing this while multitasking (I basically am only in this thread while I'm at work), and I must have missed it. I honestly don't recall seeing Ran claiming what I was.

@Ran, how do you feel I'm buddying Gheb?

 

[ranmaru]

Who is scum, Chibo?

 

[ranmaru]

Gheb, will respond to you in a bit. At work.

 

[ranmaru]

I think I already explained how it could help. Just extra information is all, but if we are all fine with deciding today, then that's fine. I was thinking of re-reading, but I don't want to overthink it. I'm thinking our best and safest bet is Chibo being scum. One, I don't buy that he didn't see my result. Any scumbag would at least look back (especially since quoting Gheb) to confirm if I gave out a result. It's null. Two, no direction from him, but instead asks for us to summarize night actions for him. He voted me yesTerday and has not followed up with it.

I found Gheb and Sang iffy but generally, I can see town intent/motivation from the both of them at times as well. From Chibo, I do not get this. His slot (through out the entire game) has lurked from the spotlight. Entirely. Even toDay, it took him a long while to post, without much content.

I am deciding on Chibo. Gheb and Sang, talk to me about this. We have until Tuesday.

 

[ranmaru]

~ Gheb ~
SangfroidWarrior

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think I already explained how it could help. Just extra information is all, [...]

Too many variables in that for my liking. Your plan does not take into account that your role could still be mafia, that's not a factor from your pov ... but it is from everybody else's. Another thing that could easily occur is that everybody has been truthful about their name claims in which case we'd have to assume that Night Phases will not actually give us any additional information. From what I could gather there are multiple ways to play through Undertale that leave some ambiguity over some character's in-game alignment and this game looks flavor-heavy enough to potentially play off of that. I'd just rather have it in my/our hands if the game is on the line ... rather than banking on a non-foolproof plan. So yeah, I really think lynching toDay is the way to go.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I am deciding on Chibo. Gheb and Sang, talk to me about this. We have until Tuesday.

I can give you the long story laying out my thought process on why I have no clue right now who the hell we should lynch.

Or I can just keep it simple and tell you that right now I have no clue who the hell we should lynch.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Okay, after multiple days I've finally finished my re-read but I'm not sure the extent that it helped or changed anything for me. I'll post my results and things that I think we should talk about, and I'll try to keep it short. If there are any questions I can expand further, but I don't want to clog up the thread too too much (and 4000 words worth of notes is just too much).

In my opinion, Gheb is still most likely to be scum. While I do see some very towny things from him, a lot of his play (individual as well as interactions) make me think he is scum. I could see Chibo possibly being scum but, at the same time, there are things that he's done that make it hard for me to believe he would do those things as scum. He may be an indy, if we actually have another one of those, but I'm not sure. My town read on Ran has definitely decreased but, out of the three, I still think he is most likely to be town.

Spoiler: Gheb

These are the reasons as to why I think Gheb is the most likely to be scum:

1. He has very few, if any, interactions with Ryu and Dietz throughout the game, and through much of the game he has mentioned his distrust of the slots but never actively interacted with them or even tried to push them. Their interactions with him were very few and far between, and they never followed up with him (two examples from Dietz in interacting with Gheb are 196 [Gheb's response was curt, and Dietz never acknowledged it] and 800 [to which Gheb never responded]). This would be less telling if they had treated others the same, but both Dietz and Ryu interacted and followed up with other players.
2. He has been very vague and unwilling to make hard stances for much of the early game, and this is especially true for D1 and early D3. His D2 play only consisted of his push on J and then throwing shade at multiple other players but never really stating who else he thought scum would be. This is a somewhat weak point as I, myself, do like to play by keeping my mind open to other opinions, but I personally think there's a difference in what Gheb was doing early game. Especially then, he only made attempted to make reads clear in a few instances, stating dislike of certain players but not often willing to say that he thinks they are scum.
3. This is the weaker of the three points, but I find it really weird that Gheb was trying to push Ryu and Ran being SvS and saying that it's textbook distancing before either of them ever flipped scum. I know that this could just be him trying to convince everybody else of his point, but it lowkey seems like he already knew that Ryu is going to flip scum (and not just in an intuitive sense).

On the other hand, while I do feel like Gheb is the most likely to be scum, many of his points and posts make me think he could be town. His 1376 is one example of a post that makes me think he could be town, especially his point that Ryu could have easily gotten a lynch on Ran during the D3 shenanigans, or at least a NL. Also, this is less quantifiable, but it seems like there's a lot of town intent in many of his posts. These do not outweigh my scum-read of him, though.

Spoiler: Chibo

I would be fine with lynching Chibo because he just kind of shows that he doesn't care about this game in any sense and, while I understand that he's really busy, it's become really problematic. What I find really interesting is his 1317, because I think he could have decided to vote Ran instead of Dietz and force town to lynch Ran. I don't use that to clear him because I think the only people on Ran at that point were Ryu and Gheb (and maybe just Gheb), so we could have gone for a NL instead, but just that action makes me think he's more town than scum. But, his voting D4 concerns me because it just seemed like he didn't read at all. He has basically no connection with anybody, and I'd consider him as scum (either mafia or indy, if there were to be another one of those) because of the events, or lackthereof, from last Night. He's a null for me, unfortunately, as I don't think he's town but I'm not even sure if he's scum, either.

Spoiler: Ran

These are the reasons that I think Ran is the most likely to be town:

1. He has actively tried to interact with and get individualized reads on almost every player in the game, at least those that he could. Even his change to voting J D2 shows that he was at least attempting to think things through, and he had stated pretty early on in the Day that he wasn't sure how he felt about J even though he had a slight town read on him. While I could also see this as him being scum, since it was between Kary and J that day and they both flipped town there would have been no benefit to him, and it definitely put him in the limelight.
   1. In many of his posts, I can see the town intent as he's attempting to work through who actually is scum instead of straight tunneling or just following what other people are doing.
2. He was on both of the lynches of scum, and I find it hard to believe that scum would do that unless they really wanted to win as the last man standing since mafia could have won at that point, especially since it is most likely that we are/were dealing with a 3-man scum team. The only thing with this is that the events surrounding the lynches are a little strange, so I don't think that this inherently clears Ran (this is explained by Gheb in his 1376, but it's also weird that no lynch of Ran ever came to anything, despite him being a candidate for 2 days in a row).
3. This may also just be bias (?), but I believe his claim and I think it's the driving force in me thinking he's more town than scum.

But, there are some reasons that I could see him being scum. First and foremost are the interactions between him and Ryu D1, as Ryu was trying to get Soup lynched and then Ran comes in with an FoS on Ryu. Again, this is weak as I don't think scum would do this so early on in the game, but it also seems like it could be a weak attempt at distancing (CYA and all). The second is that I do think there is a line between him being willing to re-consider reads and him just being wishy-washy, but I don't really see many, if any, instances where he crosses that line. Definitely more town than scum, IMO.

In terms of things I'd like to discuss with everyone, I'd like to talk about reads.

Chibo, who do you think could be scum? I know Ran has already asked this, but I'd just like to talk it out with you.

Ran, can you talk to me a bit more about why you think Chibo is the best lynch for toDay? I do agree that he could be scum, but I'm not really convinced that there's enough from him to be worth a lynch.

Gheb, if you had to make a decision, who do you think is the most likely to be scum? I know you said that you don't have a clue, but I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.

Also, can somebody just talk to me about the lack of NK last Night? I'm having a hard time trying to figure it out, and I know it's going to just be speculation, but I'm curious of what other people think.

 

[ranmaru]

On Gheb. As I have said before, I can see that he truly didn't have any idea at the start of the game. Just think of the scum team for the moment. (2/3 of it) It was JD and Ryu, who were lurking pretty hard. That would make me guess the partner may be leading or also lurking along them, not really supporting them. If the scum team was mostly lurking, then it'll make it hard for town to actually find any scum, and just lynch people being silly. I agree on the second point, but by itself I don't see how it can add up to scum intent. Third point I agree with too, yet I have concerns with you too.

Sang, you have given Ryu the benefit of the doubt when he stopped tunneling me. I again don't think it was a good analysis of him since he only really looked into Koops. That observation just seemed a bit surface level. You have been pushing JD, but with Ryu, AND JD, you have mentioned the fear of everyone attacking them, and stating you'd kick yourself if they were to flip town. Yet, I can see that as a genuine concern, coming from a townie. You pushed, and helped lynch a RB scum, while taking a while to get onto Ryu. Now Ryu self voted, which would make it vague as to who would actually come on. Those are my only concerns. YET, once again, you show more townieness to me. You are obviously trying to find the right option for today, so even with these connections or lack of connections, I think you are more townie than not. Now, you say you find town intent from many of Gheb's posts. I think you'd need to outline these a little more before we discuss more about Gheb. I do not want to make the wrong decision today.

 

[ranmaru]

On my interactions with Ryu. Again, remember back to Ryu's push on me. Consider Joey's push on my slot. I was at that time, pushing third party scum trying to push me. It's not like I was trying to avoid him, I was distracted with *other* scum. Ryu's actions were so minimal after that, I had no reason to push him yet. Also do consider Ryu did just replace in, and I wanted to see if it were simply Town Ryu who was being stubborn, which has happened before. There is a reason why I brought up Fire Emblem: Awakening. There, scum rake/orbo just always came in thread to sling mud at me, just as he did here. Ryu, was disliking me for my *correct* read on Dabuz, while he simply thought I was scum trying to take advantage of his inactivity. Here, I was trying to re-evaluate Ryu, and gave him a chance. I gave him this chance, and noticed he abused it, especially when he opportunistically jumped on me again, I realized he was bull-****ting. Finally, yes I have been re-evaluating my reads quite a bit this game. Do remember we had a third party flip D1, that of course is going to make my mind race in circles, when we have less information. There was a fight between J and Kary, which made me re-read it a bit to get a better grasp on them. It lead me to a wrong decision, when I was also wrong on Rake. Rake and J's flip helped though, to show scum on the wagons. Seeing that my scumreads were entirely wrong, I *had* to re-evaluate there.

The most important bit: we were *all* wrong, at the beginning and middle. Why is this? This leads back to my point on gheb, scum were lurking, so we were simply finding townies being scummy, and not actual scum. I don't think you noticed JD scum until after J flipped town, either. Joey flipping D1 definetly slowed us down. Scum and town would join it all happily.

 

[ranmaru]

Spoiler: Chibo Context

Was wondering why the hell JD wouldn't be voting Ran too in this situation, only to find out he's been about as inactive as I am *sigh*

This is odd to mention, I do not know why JD *would* be voting me at all. This strikes me as possible annoyance that his mate isn't doing anything to help his own survival. JD has hard defended me all game, so he wouldn't be voting me at all.

Wow this kult or church w/e thing sounds horrendous lol. If I have time I want to see if I can look into that a little. I'd love to see of hear a full explanation of it from Katy. In fact yeah, lets hear that now. Especially all things considered based on how it transpired yesterday, lets hear why it was done Katy.

He brings up the Kary church and how it was horrendous. I agree with that sentiment, it wasn't the best. Yet notice how he responds to my quote of stating how Kary's interactions with me were townie:

Meh, I'm not really getting a town read from it. Not that I'm getting a scum read either, just null.

He disagrees with me, only because he feels it is null. I feel he uses this to keep talking about his stance on Kary, even though it isn't much. Notice he gave a disagreement without any reasoning. Supports my thought that he is only stating it to state it. Not to convince anyone.

If someone can properly explain why the Kantrip vs J interaction included a scum (before we knew Kantrip was town) and convince me of that, I'm down for this J train.

Of course, he states this as if a conditional statement can make J scum. An interaction doesn't assure that there will be a scum flip if it seems like it.

Hammer was dropped right? I'd like to see a vote count before I consider any kind of voting. I just skimmed through everything since I've joined in so far, and I'll continue to read over it a bit closer, especially with any potential reveals. These few things were just what stood out to me thus far for response.

He viewed while we were discussing hammering. He only comes after, and mentions this as if he didn't know.

I have been reading/skimming, but usually my comprehension is a little poor since I'm generally doing this while multitasking (I basically am only in this thread while I'm at work), and I must have missed it. I honestly don't recall seeing Ran claiming what I was.

@Ran, how do you feel I'm buddying Gheb?

Here he does the same thing, acting as if he really didn't notice the facts in thread when he could have done so, to clear himself.

However, this makes sense, and unless I've missed it twice, I don't believe Ran has said who I am yet. What would you all rather happen? Ran says my character first then I confirm/deny with my role, or I full claim and then Ran confirms/denies it? I'm fine with either method, I can see the ups and downs to both.

I don't believe the red here, especially since after reading Gheb's quote, he'd most likely go back to read to make sure he gets it right.

This is probably the best post to a lead we have imo. I agree with this line of thought.

Vote: Ranmaru

He quotes Gheb and follows his post to vote me, and never follows up with that. It shows he really doesn't believe it, otherwise he'd be arguing it today.

---

Haha just kidding, I've only read the first two pages of the game and am finding more and more than I'm probably too drunk to actually play this game tonight so I'll get into the thick tomorrow.

Kary I think I'm grandfathered into your religion so if I owe collections or something just get me up to speed

Glyph shows similar lack of reading.

Reading now

States this, and never really gets to it.

Ok wow I really cannot get myself to want to play this game, was expecting to have more free time but turns out I was not so fortunate

request replacement

Sorry Bardull, didn't mean to be such a boner but its better to do this than slap out some halfassed content lol

Never really gets into it, sadly.

#110

The man votes JD here, and mentions Joey and Gheb before they even posted. Both heads view constantly but don't ever really post.

---

I just wanted to show the past actions of this slot, which aren't much.

Chibo could have gone for a NL or Ran lynch. Do remember there was a vig, who could have shot JD in the night, therefore shedding light onto RYU AND CHIBO (possibly gheb). The negatives would outweight the positive (for them) in that they would get much more attention over the slight attention Gheb would get, since he was sleeping. Ryu and Gheb *WERE* voting me, go read that again. Kary was voting me. JD could have come in to hammer, but it's possible he wasn't around to do so. Ryu has been constantly voting me first to give wifom about my slot, just as his self-voting gives wifom to your slot. His stance of you is also weird, yet null, and therefore I will ignore it.

Chibo brings up the church earlier, as something he finds *horrendous*. Later on he brings up a quote of me talking about how she seems townie when responding to me, but he states that it is not townie, not scummie, but just null. But doesn't state why. Just to state it.

Twice, he acts as if he didn't really read, when it comes to hammer, and when it comes to my result. It doesn't seem believable, especially in the first instance, where he has viewed and left. This shows little motivation to find scum (or defend town) and motivation to clear himself over finding scum (with him not seeing my result). In the end, his response is null.

His most suspicious is his vote on me, while agreeing with Gheb's post. It is grimy because he follows Gheb, never to follow up with it. Supports his lack of scumhunting, and it also shows his *motivation* is not consistent. This shows he only does it for show, and some of his other posts show an instinct of survival, and appearing townie, and trying to clear himself over finding scum.

Do notice he never gives a read. The rest of his predecessors haven't done much and he's the one to show the most content, and it is lacking.

FoS: Chibo

 

[ranmaru]

I also want to mention that the self-vote doesn't really show anything. I would not think you'd shy away from a Ryu vote, even if scum, as you seem competent enough to take care of that if you had to. It seemed that way, but I think it may have been scum seeing that and trying to take advantage of that. Gheb already voted, so that would point towards Chibo. Even if he didn't self-vote, I wouldn't consider you either way anyway. So really, it was unnecessary. Still, I just take it as null but that's my thoughts on it.

On the night kill. Not sure. It possibly has to do something with your 1-bp bodyguard, as the only other option is that the scum forgot to send in an action, or simply no killed. (Which I think would not help them) Although, no-killing (from Chibo's pov as scum) would help him survive and be able to win rather then be in a likely lylo of Gheb/Ran/Chibo because it would help make the playing field more even, and it causes us to be confused since at this point, we all have connections to scum. It wouldn't be favorable to Gheb as there is ammo against him, and it would be better to gain Chibo's favor while killing you to lynch me. You making up the bodyguard 1-shot BP is also a possibility, no killing to state that you actually protected me. YET, you also add that your BP wasn't popped afterwards, so there may be truth to your statement. The only thing is that once again, this type of role seems odd, and made up. Second, this is the second time where you add something that seems townie, such as the Ryu self vote, if it were coming from your strategy. (I mention this as it CAN make yourself suspicious, but it's good play to have him do it to make you more odd when you are actually scum) Stating your 1-shot BP hadn't gone off gives you a chance to seemingly stay alive tomorrow, but that wouldn't matter if you were scum. It would be beneficial for you to actually have an un-used BP, and it screws over scum. This reminds me of a chess move made by scum, that ignores a check. (No killing) and now, we can check them lynching outside the BP, forcing them to not kill once again during the night, since you can ALSO protect and not die while doing it. That in itself, is null though, because if scum knows you are protecting them, they can simply no kill to incriminate the other player. So use your best judgement there. (Oh wait, they'd simply kill to win the game)

Anyway, if you are scum you are playing pretty well. Yet, I don't think this is the case. I think Chibo is the final scum, and him no-killing is a possibility, if your BP is legit and was not popped. Basically, scum no killing screwed them over. Yet, they were probably losing anyway.

 

[ranmaru]

Basically, if someone is null to us at this point in the game, that's a big problem. Again, Chibo voting is a better option for him as scum, because it'd semi-clear him. (Otherwise it'd open him up to being condemned forever if JD was vigged). Also, I don't think there are any indy's left, that's just too much anti-town in a game. It's either townie or scum. There is no in-between.

 

[ranmaru]

(Finally, the option of scum forgetting to send in an action, is possible for anyone, so it's null) There is also the option of your BP being popped, but the mod simply didn't elaborate enough on it. (Unless he directly stated that it was not popped) But if he left it vague, be careful.

That's all I really have to say. I still think it's Chibo, regardless of night actions and roles I haven't seen before. Talk with me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We should lynch either Sang or Chibo imo. Ran *could* still be scum but ...


ranmaru

I still hold his play at the end of D2 against him. I don't care what anybody else says about it, he played a major role in mislynching J but tried to put the blame entirely on me. Just because at one point he realized that it's not going to work out the way he had hoped doesn't mean that he didn't go for it initially. Can't let that one slide, even two Day phases later. I maintain that his interactions with Ryu were awful and reek of distancing as well. I've made the point yesterDay, I don't think Ran adequately went into it [which is somewhat understandable because it's not easy to respond to] so there's still stuff that bugs me big time about this slot. On the other hand there's a number of things that make think he could be town after all. His claim is confirmed to be true and while a flavor cop could technically be mafia aligned I'm not sure how likely that is. At the end of the day though the two things that make me think he's more likely to be town than the other two slots are the amount of a.) effort he's put into the game [he's been working his ass off throughout the entire game and a scumbag certainly wouldn't need to do that] and b.) pressure he managed to withstand. Dude had a lot of **** thrown at his slot most of the game and yet he still looks better [read: less bad] than ... everybody else. That's kind of a simple way to sum up my thoughts but since Ranmaru is at the bottom of my priority list right now I don't see the point in being any more specific than that.


SangfroidWarrior

Some of this is stuff I've mentioned before but I'll gladly repeat myself ... it still 'baffles' me [for the lack of a beter word] how she managed to consistently read Ran as town throughout the whole game and how - despite talking to/about me more often than anybody else - it took her until Day 4 to conclude that I'm her strongest scum read. I'd also like to chip in here that her reasoning for that is pretty lacking. She herself admits that two of her three points are weak and her first point also kind of falls flat if you take a closer look at it. First, neither Ryu nor Dietz really interacted with *anybdody* except Ran and Sang respectively. Second, neither Dietz nor Ryu's slot were really active during Day 1 so there wasn't much I could've based a stronger push on. And third, I feel like the whole 'distancing' argument has become kind of meaningless at this point - all 4 remaining players have pushed / accused / lynched / hammered one or even more of the confirmed mafiosi. Not sure why I should be the one singled out here. I'd also like to point out that one of the things you hold against me [pointing out a connection between Ryu and Ran] is essentially the same thing that you yourself are doing [arguing that there's a connection between Ryu, Dietz and myself]. Just because you admit that this is a weak point doesn't change the fact that it's a double standard and you *are* holding it against me anyway.
Honestly, I would've been much more OK with your read on my slot had you just admitted that you base it on PoE. Because right now that's the only way I can see it make sense given how thin the points you've raised turned out to be.

I don't like her claim. That BG / pseudo-Doc with a BP thing really came completely out of nowhere and her claimed actions don't come exactly close to what I think a protector should've done. It also leaves me wondering just how powerful this town is? Two investigators, a Vig variant and a Bulletproof protector role? That seems a bit much to handle for a scumteam that only has a strongman and a roleblocker. The third mafioso would have to have a pretty ridiculous power to make that setup somewhat balanced because the strongman's sole purpose in that setup would be to bypass that one BP. Claiming a protective role and then have an NK occur also seems ... awfull convenient? I can't speak for Bardull but normally mods always inform somebody when their BP status vanishes. It all seems very fishy to me because non of what Sang has claimed about herself ever had even the slightest impact on the game and now everything suddenly falls into place with her roleclaim and the lack of a Night kill.

[Note that the things I've point out it final paragraph by themselves are not something I'd usually hold against somebody because there honesly isn't too much she could do about it from her position. It just adds some more weight to the issues I've already voiced. Normally I'd treat it as null and focus on other things. [Also Sang asked about NK stuff]].


CT Chia

Lazy but I'm not sure what I can say about him that hasn't been said yet. Worth noting that we need a 3/4 majority toDay for a lynch so this may actually be the only thing that has a realistic chance to go through. So uh, you better start doing stuff Chibo ... unless you're scum in which case you can just continue to do what you've been doing all game.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I'm gonna respond to these by just linking to the post I'm referring to, because I'm not sure how else to keep from making it longer than it already is. Sorry.

#1506 - What do you mean by "...he truly didn't have any idea at the start of the game"? While Ryu and Dietz decided to lurk as scum, I think it just means that it's more telling of who they do and do not interact with throughout the game, which explains my reasoning a bit more for my point on Gheb. As for my second point, it's not necessarily scum intent by itself but more of how it's added up with everything else that he's done. I included all of these, despite being somewhat weak, because I think that, together, they are more telling. The point that I'm making in the second one is that Gheb only ever really stated a scum read on somebody when he was going to push them (J, you, Ryu), and then outside of that he usually had to be questioned on who else he thought scum could be, and he would make wishy-washy stances. Thus, he would be able to avoid connecting himself with other players.

I gave Ryu the benefit of the doubt in that one instance because I wanted him to do more than just tunnel you, and when he did I thought it would give me more to work with. When he started D3 tunneling you again, I still had concerns with him but I wanted to interact with him more to see if he could justify his actions or not (to which I don't think he ever really tried). With the other part, I just want to explain my thought process. I know that I mentioned the fear of everyone attacking Rake, and it was because it just seemed very opportunistic by many people, and I was thinking that either scum were just using it to get an easy mislynch D1 or that town just weren't thinking, which could have been just as deadly. I don't really remember stating a fear of people attacking Ryu, but that might be an oversight on my part. I do remember being nervous about a JD lynch, but that's only because at least 3 people hadn't posted since the focus changed, one of which was JD, the other of which only really showed up to hammer. I thought more people could give us better connections and different perspectives, but it didn't really matter in the end.

In terms of town intent that I can find from Gheb's posts, there are a few things I find from him that seem like he may actually be trying to find scum. This is mostly true if I look at some things from the perspective that his playstyle might just be abrasive (for lack of a better word, no offense intended) or closed. For example, in his 640 it seems like he could genuinely be trying to get people to make harder stances and to think more instead of just blindly reading people (it's kind of a sweeping statement and didn't actually do anything, but still... points). My problem with this is that I don't find those playstyles particularly pro-town, as they keep other town members guessing as much as they keep scum guessing. It's also a problem that there aren't that many that I can find town intent.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

#1507 - I see where you're coming from with the Ryu thing, which is why I don't really consider it that big of a point in the long run considering how you've interacted with him versus how he interacted with you. And, with your re-evaluation point, I don't think re-evaluating in and of itself is a bad thing (I do it myself). The only part that may have seemed opportunistic was your switch onto J, but I don't have as many problems with that because I think you would have known that it would paint a huge target on you and because you had voiced your wavering opinions multiple times.

#1508 - For the points on Chibo, I'd really like him to respond before I give any opinions, but I do think you make some good points. I had read through all of his slot's posts, but I wasn't able to conclude that much. As for Ryu and Gheb both voting you, I was thinking the votecount was wrong (1311 vs 1318), but you're right. I do agree with you that, of the posts Chibo has made, there is a possibility of him being scum. I just don't feel as comfortable with it as I do with Gheb, mostly because Chibo just doesn't have enough content for me to go off of. There's just more to Gheb that I can point to and say "I think this is scummy" whereas with Chibo it's mostly just "Well, that was weird of him".

#1509 - Thank you for giving me your thoughts on these. I'll explain a bit of what I was thinking. I don't really see any benefit to not having a night kill for scum, so I'm thinking it's more likely that they forgot to send one in, as I don't think an indy is likely and I don't know why scum wouldn't have a night-kill. The fact that I still have my BP is a little weird to me, but I think I can see what you're saying with a scum!Chibo thinking that not killing anybody would help him to win, especially since there would have been no way for him to guess that there would be a BP. I feel like Gheb could have also had a similar motive, but at the same time getting me or you out of the way would have made an easy opening for a Chibo lynch.

#1510 - I also think I keep forgetting that there was a vig (mostly because I'm unsure how adrenaline would work, I think) and so that would make sense of needing to have that lynch in order to protect the scum team later. It also would have clearly opened Ryu up for scrutiny even more than him not voting at all did. At least with Chibo doing that they could have possibly attempted to protect 1 person on the scum team.

#1511 - I was told that I would be informed if my BP was popped, and that I still have it. And, I mean, I would be fine with a Chibo lynch mostly because that might be the only one we can get unless he comes back in. I'd like for him to discuss a bit more first, though.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Gheb, with respect to Ran's switch onto J, I don't think you can really say that he had a major part in mislynching J when you claim that J's lynch was because of your push on him. That just seems very odd, honestly. Do Ran's interactions with Ryu look like distancing, or do Ryu's interactions with Ran show more distancing? Or does that not make a difference? Mostly, I'm just asking because I want you to talk about your thought processes about these a bit more, if you can.

In response to your points on me, I don't necessarily see how me consistently town-reading a slot is scummy. I have talked with other people and with Ran in order to continue developing my read on him, and the good things I find about his play outweigh the bad. It took me until Day 4 to determine that you are a stronger scum read of mine because, as I said at the beginning of the game, I have a hard time reading you. Many of your posts are short and you often keep your thoughts hidden (not necessarily out of malicious intent, but it makes it harder for town to figure you out). And, as I said to Ran, even if two of my three points are weak, those points are still valid to me as to why you are scum. Ryu and Dietz did interact with other players, but what is interesting about their interactions with you was that they all seemed like they were just for show. And, you hardly ever interacted with them, IIRC.

For the connections with Ryu and Dietz, you are the one singled out to me because, from my perspective, you didn't really do much scum-hunting with respect to either Deitz or Ryu. I agree that we are kind of doing the same thing, but I don't see the connection between Ryu and Ran that you are seeing. And, as to why I'm not putting it down to simple PoE: I don't feel comfortable leaving it up to elimination, which is why I did the re-read. Even if I felt that Ran was town and that you were scum, I had to verify those reads with myself. If you are scum then you have played a very strong game, but if it had to be down to me choosing scum between you and Ran, I'd choose you. I exclude Chibo because he's mostly null to me and because, unless he comes back soon, he might be the only viable lynch, as you say.

In terms of my role, just because my actions don't seem like something you think a protector should have done it doesn't mean that they are inherently bad. We had two players that had claimed PR in D1, and no other PR until later in the game, at which point I was more invested in keeping Ran around because I thought he would be able to help us more and because of the reasons I've already explained. I apologize for my wording earlier, but I was told that I would be informed if my BP popped. I was never informed that it did, so that implies, to some extent, that there was no kill attempt. I don't know what that means, if it means anything at all. Regardless, thank you for giving me your insight.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Anyway, sorry for the kind-of walls, but I wanted to get my thoughts and responses down in case I'm unable to be here that much over the next few days (school and general life shenanigans, unfortunately). I will be in and out, but I'm not sure how often.

Before I go, I wanted to ask. Ran, you investigated Gheb D2 or D3, right? Could you go into this (quoted below) more, or was that all you got?

I targeted Gheb. This time got flavor about me being a magician before it failing. That's it.

 

[ranmaru]

1. Consider that without the possibility of bodyguard, scum no killing wouldn't hurt them since a mislynch can win them the game with 4 people or 3.
2. Gheb can be brash at times but what I mean is that I can understand the position he had in D1, because I have been in that same position, and I'd call out inactives at that point.
3. I know you are trying to find the player with the most chance of being scum by finding who is showing more scum tells. That's not always the case, after many times lynching not-scums I realize that sometimes we seem to miss slots because they just slipped out while we fought it out, which is what I think Chibo is doing. Sometimes scum turns out to be someone you had a null-scum read on or that you weren't as confident on. I am just trying to find the most likely to be scum, and the most likely scum to me in THIS phase will be one that does not even try to help out. The one who keeps making excuses and has not even shown who he believes to be scum today... this slot has skirted by through the whole game.
4. I checked gheb N2, and was also roleblocked that night. So nothing I got out of that.

Deadline is fast approaching and we still do not have an opinion from Chibo. He voted me yesterday, and he has yet to speak. Also notice he stated that 'stuff keeps happening lol' yet doesn't expand on the *extra stuff*.

 

[ranmaru]

Also, yes that was it. Just to be clear.

 

[ranmaru]

Also, on role balance. Do consider that both investigative roles are pretty damn weak. Town lynch stumper doesn't really help. Bodyguard with 1-shot BP doesn't seem too farfetched. Also, I would think claiming this would put more attention towards Sang, so I see no benefit as scum for her to claim that. Vig doesn't help really as there is more chance to kill town. (Which is what happened) I would think with scum kills and vig kills town will need some buffer. That's my thoughts on that.

Good night. I'm still leaning towards Chibo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

... Chibo isn't gonna post, is he?