Uh...Why are you guys ****** fox and falco?

[goodoldganon]

Whining and babying? Oh, you mean my contribution. Well of course it was nice with that absent, it was one less opinion for you to debate against. It's much easier to influence poor decisions when you have less people pointing out your idiocy. Hence why there is a lack of mutual and unanimous calls; it's easier that way for the select few.

You shouldn't be like that though, goodoldganon. I'm not entirely useless. I bring life here. See? You're already posting.

It's the attitude you carry that pisses me off. Chibo and others disagree with some of our changes and we listen and care because he doesn't come off as a huge tool and talk with an untitled sense of importance. But this isn't the point of the topic. What I can do is point out the whole in your idea.

If we add lag to the ending on the ground then yes that will work, but we have to add lag to the aerial version when you land, otherwise people will just short hop side-b and we don't fix anything. But adding lag to the aerial version poses more problems. If they can shorthop and side-b and lag without incurring hard land lag then, once again, we are back to square 1. But, when we add lag to the hard landing lag we nerf Fox like we nerfed MK. Any hard landing lags (basically hitting the ground after a side-b or up-b) will have a lot more lag.

Overall it's tricky to nerf this. I agree with Yes that is dumb we have to nerf something like this cause most people frankly won't ever camp like this. But that's the key word 'MOST'. Nerfing the size might be the best way to do this, but we'll have to wait and see. I do ask, why didn't this change go into the latest nightly. Nightlies aren't tourney material, why not test this out.

 

[kupo15]

It's the attitude you carry that pisses me off. Chibo and others disagree with some of our changes and we listen and care because he doesn't come off as a huge tool and talk with an untitled sense of importance. But this isn't the point of the topic. What I can do is point out the whole in your idea.

I respect Ulevo telling things how it is whether people like it or not. He did lots of testing that was completely ignored wasting his energy spent on the research. I like Ulevo's logic even when he called me out on my failed logic and drove me insane.

I agree with Yes that is dumb we have to nerf something like this cause most people frankly won't ever camp like this. But that's the key word 'MOST'.

lol. So you see it as a camping problem so you assume no one will play gay as if people go to tourneys to play honorably? That makes no sense unless I am missing something here....

 

[Revven]

I respect Ulevo telling things how it is whether people like it or not. He did lots of testing that was completely ignored wasting his energy spent on the research.

Magus > Ulevo in testing. Just wanted to post that much.

 

[kupo15]

Magus does have **** posts

 

[Ulevo]

It's the attitude you carry that pisses me off. Chibo and others disagree with some of our changes and we listen and care because he doesn't come off as a huge tool and talk with an untitled sense of importance. But this isn't the point of the topic. What I can do is point out the whole in your idea.

Well, I am important. You're merely jealous. It's natural.

And by the way, since you obviously didn't realize, that "point" I made was never to be taken seriously.

 

[_Yes!_]

I only camp like that while I'm thinking of how to approach, but I never make it a point to constantly run away. The only other Fox players worth mentioning (Teh_Spamerer and Ninjalink) don't play like that either.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I respect Ulevo telling things how it is whether people like it or not. He did lots of testing that was completely ignored wasting his energy spent on the research. I like Ulevo's logic even when he called me out on my failed logic and drove me insane.


lol. So you see it as a camping problem so you assume no one will play gay as if people go to tourneys to play honorably? That makes no sense unless I am missing something here....

Theres really a difference between being blunt and just being egotistically vitriolic. I won't accuse Ulevo of anything but I can't blame GoG for being annoyed.

Even as WBR'ers we don't have to take the tourney scene so cynical. The majority of players aren't going to rely on such strategies to win, doesn't change the potential abuse but again GoG has a point.

I see no problem with either route as a fix. They already have plenty of lag on their recoveries to make it punishable when actually using it to recover, so its not a big difference in that regard.

 

[Revven]

I only camp like that while I'm thinking of how to approach, but I never make it a point to constantly run away. The only other Fox players worth mentioning (Teh_Spamerer and Ninjalink) don't play like that either.

IMO, the main guy who would do this is someone who mains Falco and not Fox. Falco's is infinitely faster than Fox's, harder to punish, and clanks with a lot more things due to having two different hitboxes (one that spikes and the one I posted a page back). But, both are "powerful" (again, when only looking at the options they have to recover, so in comparison their Side Bs are powerful compared to their Up Bs) recoveries because you can never hit them out of it unless you use a projectile (which only so few characters have) or your move just so happens to clank and then hit Fox/Falco (Wario Dtilt and Sheik Nair for example)

And as I recall, there aren't any other characters in this game that have a recovery that work like that. Sure you can look at Snake's and say that his SA frames make it hard to hit him out of his Up B with multi-hit moves. But that recovery is slow, these recoveries are both ridiculously fast in comparison and suffer barely any land lag. There really isn't any other recovery that compares to these two in the entire game. And no I don't mean by how good they are recovery wise, I just mean the overall strength of them hitbox wise. What recovery clanks with a sweetspot knee besides these two? None. What recovery clanks with moves and then half a second later they get hit? None. What recovery is so fast and can go through almost anything? None. Only Fox and Falco have this strange trait for their Side Bs. And I think that shouldn't be the case for two spacies that have great onstage games and should have average recoveries. I should be able to get the chance to punish the two of them for using their Side Bs wrongly. A lot of the time a Fox or a Falco can get away with using their Side B above the ledge because of these weird properties their Side Bs possess. No other recovery clanks with nearly as much stuff and is that fast (don't even say MK's glide attack as that's not even as fast as either Side B). It's kinda... ridick IMO.

Can we try a hitbox size decrease please? PK told me that Falco's hitbox size is 4 units*, so anyone wanna try shrinking it down to 2 units and see if that reduces the amount of things that clank with it? Might as well try it with Fox too, I'm not sure how big his is already but I assume he would also have to go down by 2 units? And if the hitbox size hurts them too much, we'll just have to try shifting the hitboxes to somewhere away from their body? Or just add endlag I guess at that point.

Just toss'em in a test set for us back here and see how they go.

*- Just saying units as I don't actually know the measurement the game uses haha.

 

[goodoldganon]

lol. So you see it as a camping problem so you assume no one will play gay as if people go to tourneys to play honorably? That makes no sense unless I am missing something here....

You were

Outside of being used for camping the side-b is ok. Annoying for all the reasons SMK posted (you can be a little too sloppy with them for my tastes, but w/e) but still ok. It's because they can be used to camp so well (Falco more then Fox) that we have to address these in some way. When money is on the line, all honor is out the window, we all know that. I'm out of town, so I was unable to test when we moved the hitbox back if that was more of a blow to their recoveries then we wanted them to be.

We could lower Fox's blaster damage down to 1% instead of the 2% or 3% it does now, if we consider Fox too powerful or just his camping game. I still think finding some way to remove SHDL from Falco would be the best plan. We aren't trying to make all the matchups even, but there is something wrong when any player can pick up Falco and absolutely train wreck the heavies with SHDL.

What do we consider the point where a matchup needs addressed? 70-30? 75-25? 80-20? I know Jigglypuff gets rolled be G and W just as bad as heavies get rolled by Falco. All things to consider.

 

[Shell]

I think we should implement a form of PS reflect (less speed on reflect, less DMG on reflect) to counter camping universally, and then address any remaining problem characters. If it's still a problem then we shrink Illusion/Phantasm's hitbox / move it back / add land lag.

And I don't agree with the mentality that we shouldn't look at something just because someone might not use it.

 

[_Yes!_]

Making Fox's laser do 1% means people will camp longer, not less.

 

[goodoldganon]

Making Fox's laser do 1% means people will camp longer, not less.

Which is what I was afraid of, but also means there is more of an opportunity for Fox to screw up.

 

[_Yes!_]

Fox doesn't screw up

If you look at my vids, you see that I approach. I have no problem with camping though, and would time people out for the fun of it. Don't nerf his laser because campy players will just camp longer, and the good ones actually worth being called fox players will do it right.

 

[Magus420]

I'm thinking that if it would be possible to slow it down so they move a shorter distance per frame at the beginning but have the total distance about the same it would make it easier to hit them if they try to side-B through you to escape, but not much of a nerf as a recovery move.

 

[GHNeko]

Magus, can I have your children? Ill raise them in the way of frame data!

 

[goodoldganon]

Magus, can I have your children? Ill raise them in the way of frame data!

And hitbox gifs too.

 

[Revven]

Next time I play and your idea still isn't included yet Magus, I'm going to play as Fox, Side B and see if whoever I'm playing with can hit me out of it in the middle of the move where the hitbox is trailing behind him.