Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[BaeBraham]

: U FIREBALLS ARE 2 SLOW!
: You shielded/jumped one Fireball? Have another.

Nope, no Luigi will ever get bored of spamming Fireballs. You jump over them? Have a floating Fireball. You shield? Get grabbed. You spotdodge? Cyclone'd. You PS? Have another to PS while I slowly make my way to you and Cyclone you to the face once I'm close enough.

Luigi's Fireballs are very strong projectiles. Hell, even more than your own arrows or Mario's own Fireballs. They have very low commitment, deals 5% (6% at midrange), incredibly low end lag, they float, and basically create a fiery wall if the Luigi player wants to.

And I know what people might think, but Guardian Orbitars are rather slow to execute, so even if you can reflect one, he'll cancel it with another, and you won't gain any benefit from it anyway.


Don't do it at midrange. His dashing speed is slow enough to not be able too punish you if you do it far enough. Or do a jumping arrow, like Xacer said.

I know I'm a little late to the party, but- Pit can literally just jab every fireball in close range, and spam arrows when Pit is out of range. Eventually Luigi's are forced to make some sort of approach. You don't have to try and contest Luigi's fireballs unless you are at a deficit and facing the potential of the round going to time. Pit shouldn't be approaching Luigi anyways. Eventually most Luigi's are coming in to try and get some real damage anyways.

 

[LancerStaff]

It really is a strange aspect to the move. Although it does have some drawbacks against projectiles, it does have it's uses for specific matchup's.

I.e- Pikachu's using their thunder to edge-gaurd from underneath will receive the thunder right back towards themselves if Pit/Dark Pit use their side-special to get back to the stage. It reverses stage control pretty quickly in that matchup, and typically prevents Pikachu mains from using this option as much as some tend too.

Also, it's just not the best option 99% of the time for reflecting projectiles because Pit has a reflector that is more suited for it, in my opinion.

Thunder or Thunder Jolt? Because if it reflects Thunder then that's something I haven't seen before.

I know I'm a little late to the party, but- Pit can literally just jab every fireball in close range, and spam arrows when Pit is out of range. Eventually Luigi's are forced to make some sort of approach. You don't have to try and contest Luigi's fireballs unless you are at a deficit and facing the potential of the round going to time. Pit shouldn't be approaching Luigi anyways. Eventually most Luigi's are coming in to try and get some real damage anyways.

I believe that comment was before the fireball nerf and definitely before the arrow buff. Well that and Luigi doesn't have a quick way to finish a stock anymore...

Myself I don't think Pit has to worry about Luigi anymore.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I believe Falcon also slides when he shields and while his aerials might not be the safest, they lead to combos much better. Of course no one has a good dash attack, dash grab, and good aerials except for Pit. That's what makes him unique. I specifically mentioned that Pit is good at everything. But at the same time, he is not the best at anything. He does not have the best dash grab or best dash attack in the entire time; he does not have the safest aerials in the entire game; he does not have the best range or speed in the entire game... and so on. Pit is unique because he has a good combination of everything. And that's why his specialization would be to be above average in every aspect.

Yes, that is true. However, Pit is not the only one with multi-hitting aerials. He is the only one to have two - his N-air and F-air. Because of that, he has two pretty safe aerials and thus, one more option to use than most other characters with multi-hitting aerials. Nonetheless, having one more safe option to use than the majority of the cast does not mean he is the safest character in the entire game. That honor would go to Sheik. Meanwhile, I believe the character with the safest aerials in the entire game is Villager.

True, and that was what I was trying to emphasize during my first post. My post was about Pit as opposed to top or high tier characters but I was explaining why he might be winning with Pit easily and why he is also wrong in thinking that some of Pit's assets such as his range and speed are... for the lack of a better word "broken."

You forgot U-air

 

[BaeBraham]

Thunder or Thunder Jolt? Because if it reflects Thunder then that's something I haven't seen before.



I believe that comment was before the fireball nerf and definitely before the arrow buff. Well that and Luigi doesn't have a quick way to finish a stock anymore...

Myself I don't think Pit has to worry about Luigi anymore.

Yes, Pit's side special will reflect Pikachu's thunder directly back at him.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

On the thread I made about stage discussion, I updated some details and added a poll on what stage we should discuss in depth first. Angel mains, please come and vote on our stage discussion topic, even if you are not interested in participating in the discussion.

 

[Strider_123]

Question for you guys: Why does Zero suit samus have the advantage against pit?
when i look at matchups shes usually listed as "giving pit trouble" but why? i admit i haven't battled a lot of zero suits () but from the ones i did, i didn't feel like they had the upper hand. Who else would you say gives you trouble when playing pit? I say little mac () gives me problems mostly because of his super armor and alot of his moves are too quick.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Question for you guys: Why does Zero suit samus have the advantage against pit?
when i look at matchups shes usually listed as "giving pit trouble" but why? i admit i haven't battled a lot of zero suits () but from the ones i did, i didn't feel like they had the upper hand. Who else would you say gives you trouble when playing pit? I say little mac () gives me problems mostly because of his super armor and alot of his moves are too quick.

I'd reccomend going to the matchup discussion if you have any questions.

 

[Strider_123]

I'd reccomend going to the matchup discussion if you have any questions.

ah ok thought they were doing specific characters thats why i didn't ask there at first but now i will! thanks

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

ah ok thought they were doing specific characters thats why i didn't ask there at first but now i will! thanks

You can of course still ask questions about matchups, and you can also see an analysis on page 4 of why we think Zeo Suit beats the Angels.

 

[CHOMPY]

The matchup summary for each character discussed thus far will be on the front page.

 

[Wa_Black]

In the past (as Dark) I've struggled hard against match-ups with short characters, especially ones with good combos and killing potential like pika and fox, but then I realized that it's not as bad as I thought. At first my Issue was that I was going for hop aerials and getting punished because they would whiff and pit isn't really lag free.

But one day I got roped into a glory match with a pikachu and told myself not to jump. What I realized is that we have good neutral options between are jab, f smash, and f tilt. F tilt has crazy range and is great for whiff punishes. Jab + mix up works great. I didn't realize this until recent, but mix up your opponent with jab+jab, jab+delay+jab, jab combo, Jab+throw, etc can open them up for a free f smash because the first hit f smash looks just like a jab, so now they think you're going to delay, block, or what ever you been doing to convince that blocking isn't the option to do, sends them flying into no stock zone.

Once you get the lead side b can help you maintain it. I throw out one and then all of sudden people are afraid to come in. If they premature charge up a smash, side b, if i'm in range, that's an f smash and a stock. Roll behinds: f smash. Roll ins: d smash, throw, jab, u tilt, and dair

Jumping at you, believe it or not. At the range where the opponent would jump to avoid jab and even ftilt, utilt and some good priority because of how low it ducks you. I have my neutral so on point during a match that I accidentally killed someone with at 150, didn't even know the move killed. Besides of up tilt, you can nair, fair, turn around bair/dair.

Up smash is great for whiff punishes because the range of which you can slide with it.

Not to mention dash dancing in front of the ledge. They know you want that f throw, I try to space my dance so that I come out of it with a pivot grab to f throw them anyway, forcing the jump, which pit has many answers for.

Dair timings are important. I started knock opponents off the stage into a new game where every time they got knocked off I would be come that much closer to spiking them until I make some crazy dair your that sends them to no mans land.

It took me forever to learn how much of a fundamental character pit, with the exception of the ability to guide arrows, and versatile recovery, it's all the players intuition, this coming from the fact that pit doesn't have me to guaranteed things in his favor.

The one thing I'm working on now is using turn around dairs the neutral.

 

[Terotrous]

I basically only play Pit / Dark Pit when I'm playing Random, but I have to say, the post above nailed it. I get the basic gist of what to do as most characters, but for a long time I was always wondering "what the heck do I do with this character at neutral?". His short hop aerials have very low reward and have trouble hitting shorties, his dash attack is just horrible, and Side B isn't anywhere near safe, which basically just left down throw and hoping they rolled into FSmash. Then I saw the post above, and it's advice to simply stop jumping, and all of a sudden this character works. I don't know why I didn't see it before, with a fast, annoying projectile and a reflector this character has all the tools to make you approach, at which point he can use his good grounded pokes and strong punishes to do work.

The only thing I don't really agree with is Side B, it can be useful in rare instances but must be used sparingly as it is super punishable on block. Pit isn't really a character who makes big bets or extends himself heavily, he just plays lame and uses good hitboxes to harass you until you die. I can work with that.

 

[LancerStaff]

I basically only play Pit / Dark Pit when I'm playing Random, but I have to say, the post above nailed it. I get the basic gist of what to do as most characters, but for a long time I was always wondering "what the heck do I do with this character at neutral?". His short hop aerials have very low reward and have trouble hitting shorties, his dash attack is just horrible, and Side B isn't anywhere near safe, which basically just left down throw and hoping they rolled into FSmash. Then I saw the post above, and it's advice to simply stop jumping, and all of a sudden this character works. I don't know why I didn't see it before, with a fast, annoying projectile and a reflector this character has all the tools to make you approach, at which point he can use his good grounded pokes and strong punishes to do work.

The only thing I don't really agree with is Side B, it can be useful in rare instances but must be used sparingly as it is super punishable on block. Pit isn't really a character who makes big bets or extends himself heavily, he just plays lame and uses good hitboxes to harass you until you die. I can work with that.

Dash attack is terrible? Uh, it's pretty great actually. Doesn't truely combo into anything but it has a ton of range and does 11%. SH aerials don't have a ton of reward because they're safe, but even then Nair and Dair have quite a few follow-ups.

Last part is pretty spot-on though.

 

[CHOMPY]

I have discovered somethin cool you can do with Pits RAR SH Nair. If the character gets caught in Pits multi hitbox, you can follow it up with a bair or usmash at lower percentage (0-25%). Even if the opponent shields it, you can cross it up and go for a grab if they shield long enough.

Thoughts?

 

[LancerStaff]

I have discovered somethin cool you can do with Pits RAR SH Nair. If the character gets caught in Pits multi hitbox, you can follow it up with a bair or usmash at lower percentage (0-25%). Even if the opponent shields it, you can cross it up and go for a grab if they shield long enough.

Thoughts?

Xacer has been talking about a lot of Nair stuff lately... Been meaning to try it all out when I get the time. This I'm pretty skeptical about because Nair has a lot of different hitboxes that all launch in different ways... With some if they fall out of it they can punish you for it.

 

[CHOMPY]

Actually, if Pit is running forwards with the rising nair, they will be pushed forward, leading it to a fair. Like I said before, if the player got hit by the RAR rising bair, then they will be sent backwards and you can hit them with a bair.

 

[ReRaze]

Actually, if Pit is running forwards with the rising nair, they will be pushed forward, leading it to a fair. Like I said before, if the player got hit by the RAR rising bair, then they will be sent backwards and you can hit them with a bair.

You can get bair or usmash to true combo with a non RAR nair too but you need to fastfall autocancel it, you can start dair strings off nair too.

 

[CHOMPY]

One of the issues I'm running into so far is landing that move against grounded small characters, like Mario, Kirby, Pikachu, Olimar, Ness, Lucas, Jigglypuff, Game @ Watch, Villager, and Little Mac. Anyone else who is taller than the characters I just mentioned I can land it easily.

Even if they shield the rar nair, I could cross it up into a grab.

A really late nair on the very last hit could lead into a fsmash or a buffered dash grab.

 

[ReRaze]

One of the issues I'm running into so far is landing that move against grounded small characters, like Mario, Kirby, Pikachu, Olimar, Ness, Lucas, Jigglypuff, Game @ Watch, Villager, and Little Mac. Anyone else who is taller than the characters I just mentioned I can land it easily.

Even if they shield the rar nair, I could cross it up into a grab.

A really late nair on the very last hit could lead into a fsmash or a buffered dash grab.

Have you tried waiting a bit after short hopping before using nair? just enough that it still autocancels but the nair will be lower to the ground in a sense.

 

[CHOMPY]

One of the things I've been meaning to lab out is what aerials/specials Pit's uairs have priority over. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Pit's uair can go through Mario's fireballs (as Marios landing). I have been wondering if things like King DeDeDe's falling nair get outprioritized by Pit's uair for instance.

Do we have an official hitbox of where exactly Pit's uair hits?

 

[LancerStaff]

One of the things I've been meaning to lab out is what aerials/specials Pit's uairs have priority over. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Pit's uair can go through Mario's fireballs (as Marios landing). I have been wondering if things like King DeDeDe's falling nair get outprioritized by Pit's uair for instance.

Do we have an official hitbox of where exactly Pit's uair hits?

The individual hitboxes of Uair all do 2% I believe, so it'll beat out any projectile that'll do 11% I believe. Beats falling fire hydrants for one.

No hitbox imaging yet, but unless DDD falls so fast he clips through Uair you should beat him. Priority in Smash in the air is basically just hitbox placement.

 

[CHOMPY]

I was at a E2C monthly tournament last saturday and I accidentally discovered something useful with Pit/Dark Pits bair.

At 0-10% you can do a sourspot bair to ftilt, which could be a potential true combo. Also, you can do a sourspot bair to grab at lower percents as well. I even tested this online and it seems to work.

What do you guys think?

 

[LancerStaff]

Probably not a true combo, looking at it on my 3DS.

Although, I do see a lot of sour Bair > whatever from Japanese players. Just that whenever I try it I usually don't get anything outside of reading an airdodge afterwards or something... I should probably find some footage and see if it's actually a true combo or not.

 

[CHOMPY]

I was talking about if the opponent is on the ground and I do the sour bair to ftilt. Sorry i should have been more specific, lol.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Probably not a true combo, looking at it on my 3DS.

Although, I do see a lot of sour Bair > whatever from Japanese players. Just that whenever I try it I usually don't get anything outside of reading an airdodge afterwards or something... I should probably find some footage and see if it's actually a true combo or not.

Anything that works on the 3ds version will work on the wii u version

On the subject of B-air, I like the idea of it being a combo starter, but I'm not sure if it's safe on shield. Not to mention, even if it's safe on shield, you have to get awkwardly close to the opponent to get a non tippered back-air, and if this is only at low percents, it's probably not worth spending time working on it. Cool in theory though.

Edit: After labbing for a bit, here are some things I've noted:
B-air can also combo into d-smash and d-tilt and potentially uptilt
This is kind of hard to pull off, you have to b-air then get behind your opponent, or at least I think. I may have been doing it wrong the entire time.

 

[CHOMPY]

What do you guys think of using fsmash when your opponent does a normal getup?

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

What do you guys think of using fsmash when your opponent does a normal getup?

I've done it before, it's a good way to get kills. But if your opponent is good, they probably won't let it happen to them twice. Or once, if they see you charging it, you will probably get punished. Keep in mind that it can also punish get-up attacks and that ledge animations are significantly slower after they reach 100%

 

[Routa]

What do you guys think of using fsmash when your opponent does a normal getup?

If your foe happens to be at KO% then go ahead. It can also out range most of get up attacks. Due to lowish lag you wont get punished that easily.

Edit: Damn you Mr. ShinyUmbreon ! Why you so fast?

 

[ReRaze]

At those higher percents i'd honestly opt for ftilt because a tipper will kill at those percents near the ledge and ftilt has less cooldown and lasts longer anyway. Although iirc fsmash can sometimes catch ledge rolls so thats a bonus.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

At those higher percents i'd honestly opt for ftilt because a tipper will kill at those percents near the ledge and ftilt has less cooldown and lasts longer anyway.

Hm, interesting. I don't use f-tilt that often. Normally I space using F-air and D-tilt. Getting a tipper with it is pretty hard to do. But it is significantly less risky though.

 

[ReRaze]

Hm, interesting. I don't use f-tilt that often. Normally I space using F-air and D-tilt. Getting a tipper with it is pretty hard to do. But it is significantly less risky though.

Ftilt tipper is actually easy it has a massive sweetspot compared to marth's, just roll from the ledge and you will get a tipper ftilt on someone's normal getup.

edited

 

[ReRaze]

So around 20-30% dthrow true comboes into a RAR dair, which leads into another dair and another and finally a bair to finish the stock if you are near the ledge.

The specifics of this combo are kinda nitpicky (DI, rage, etc) but its just a fun thing to keep in mind if you get the chance.

 

[LancerStaff]

Keep in mind that it can also punish get-up attacks and that ledge animations are significantly slower after they reach 100%

Not anymore, Sakurai told us so back in the early days of the PotD.

So around 20-30% dthrow true comboes into a RAR dair, which leads into another dair and another and finally a bair to finish the stock if you are near the ledge.

The specifics of this combo are kinda nitpicky (DI, rage, etc) but its just a fun thing to keep in mind if you get the chance.

Wouldn't it work better facing forwards and for the Bair do a turn-around jump?

 

[ReRaze]

Not anymore, Sakurai told us so back in the early days of the PotD.



Wouldn't it work better facing forwards and for the Bair do a turn-around jump?

Does dair hitbox at the back come out faster? Also there is the issue with launch angles but maybe that could work, haven't tried. Can you do a turn around jump while still retreating?

 

[LancerStaff]

Does dair hitbox at the back come out faster? Also there is the issue with launch angles but maybe that could work, haven't tried. Can you do a turn around jump while still retreating?

RAR takes more then the two frames you'll get from hitting with the back, and since you're hitting two frames later the Bair will be easier to hit with not accounting for the small angle difference. The frontmost and backmost hits have the same amount of KB, I believe.

Turnaround jumps can be used whenever you're free to jump in the air. Actually, I was thinking you could start the combo facing forwards and switch while using a Dair if turning and Bairing is too difficult.

Oh yeah, Beefy Smash Doods made a video about a tech which I think is worth going over. They called it A cancelling... Meh, tumble cancelling would of been better. Basically, rather then teching (15ish total frames?) you can use the early autocancel frames to land upright with 5 frames of landing lag. Since Pit's Dair ACs until frame 7 and he's floaty it's not hard to time, and he can mix it up with the other options (like using an arrow right out of hitstun, hint hint).

 

[CHOMPY]

RAR takes more then the two frames you'll get from hitting with the back, and since you're hitting two frames later the Bair will be easier to hit with not accounting for the small angle difference. The frontmost and backmost hits have the same amount of KB, I believe.

Turnaround jumps can be used whenever you're free to jump in the air. Actually, I was thinking you could start the combo facing forwards and switch while using a Dair if turning and Bairing is too difficult.

Oh yeah, Beefy Smash Doods made a video about a tech which I think is worth going over. They called it A cancelling... Meh, tumble cancelling would of been better. Basically, rather then teching (15ish total frames?) you can use the early autocancel frames to land upright with 5 frames of landing lag. Since Pit's Dair ACs until frame 7 and he's floaty it's not hard to time, and he can mix it up with the other options (like using an arrow right out of hitstun, hint hint).

When you mean autocancel with dair, he can immediately shoot the arrow as the opponent is approaching?

As far as that dthrow to RAR dair > dair > bair. Does this only work on certain characters, or could this combo work on any character?

 

[ReRaze]

RAR takes more then the two frames you'll get from hitting with the back, and since you're hitting two frames later the Bair will be easier to hit with not accounting for the small angle difference. The frontmost and backmost hits have the same amount of KB, I believe.

Turnaround jumps can be used whenever you're free to jump in the air. Actually, I was thinking you could start the combo facing forwards and switch while using a Dair if turning and Bairing is too difficult.

Oh yeah, Beefy Smash Doods made a video about a tech which I think is worth going over. They called it A cancelling... Meh, tumble cancelling would of been better. Basically, rather then teching (15ish total frames?) you can use the early autocancel frames to land upright with 5 frames of landing lag. Since Pit's Dair ACs until frame 7 and he's floaty it's not hard to time, and he can mix it up with the other options (like using an arrow right out of hitstun, hint hint).

How many frames more does a turnaround aerial take from the ground? just out of curiosity

And there is the issue of pit's jump height and momentum when using normal dair instead of reverse. Normal dair has a higher knockback angle than reverse dair and eventually pit's last few jumps won't be able to reach to land the bair unless they DI bad. If i'm not mistaken, to do a turnaround jump you would have to jump in that direction, this shifts your momentum away from the target making it harder to followup. Unless im missing something, is there a way to turn around jump while still moving in the same direction?

Also that tumble cancel (I agree tumble cancelling is a better name ) thing is really interesting, Does pit have any other moves aside from dair and specials that are good cancel options?

CHOMPY Works on pretty much anyone except maybe jiggs. As long as you get the dthrow to dair it should be good but it's iffy with DI involved, I'm gonna try it out against people to see how viable it is later.

 

[CHOMPY]

Do you set the C-stick to attack instead of smash?

 

[ReRaze]

Do you set the C-stick to attack instead of smash?

Yep

 

[LancerStaff]

CHOMPY I mean using an arrow right out of hitstun to snuff followups. Autocanceling the Dair out of tumble is an alternative to teching.

Oh, and I prefer attack to Smash.

ReRaze 3 or 4 frames or so are required to turn before you jump off the ground, in the air it's just as fast as a normal jump. I think momentum shouldn't be a problem if you press back far enough...

Well, all other aerials AC from 1-3 but Nair in specific is f4 and can potentially combo into other things, but the hitbox is really small so I wouldn't consider it. Fair and Bair have good ending autocancels so those are also decent options. If you're near a platform using an Arm would be a good option if you can get the cancel.