Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[Foster J.]

Nairo also has a lot of game using rage to his advandtage, given how the Pits are 26th in weight, they take a tad extra to know out, so against characters like Fox, the rage can come into effect.

And just like with Falcon's Raptor Boost, the turn around Side-B is generally very reliable. IMO Dark Pit's is better when dealing with characters with weak recovery likes Little Mac

 

[Yong Dekonk]

At first I thought Pit was just an all around character. I didn't see any glaring weaknesses or strengths but as I play him more I've come to a few conclusions.

Pit excels on the ground, not in the air. His aerials do little damage (his neutral A does 5 percent at most) but are still a necessary part of using him despite an almost total lack of kill potential on stage. It's odd because his aerials are good attacks they just do very little damage/knock back.

Pit is hard to punish while landing. Rush down characters want to punish his landings but upper dash can be activated shortly after landing to cancel opponents attacks and effectively punish them instead.

Pit's kill moves must be used with exact precision. His upperdash arm and side smash are very punishable. His up smash is less punishable and very useful from dash.

Pit is an effective juggler. His up smash has surprising reach and duration and upperdash punishes landings well.

Pit relies heavily on the down throw--> up smash /up air combo. This is bread and butter. At higher levels of play opponents are good at spot dodging greatly reducing Pit's effectiveness.

My opinion is that Pit excels against any player who doesn't spot dodge the grab and any player that plays aggressively in a very linear way. He is an underplayed character. High mid tier. Possibly in top ten characters but barely.

 

[sweglawd]

A side b or f-air after knocking them of stage works well for me. Or spam arrows

 

[_Darkpit_]

I posted it in another thread. This is the japanese tier list... supposedly.
( Without costumes )

http://forum.germansmash.de/showthread.php?22867-Japanische-SSB4-v1-04-Tier-List

Source: https://game8.jp/matome/16664

 

[Kibzu~]

I think Pit is a solid Mid tier. Maybe High Mid. A Good player makes him seem like a high mid like Nairo Because he knows how to land them grabs and has great knowledge of the neutral. Imo. Pit can be a pit floaty/slow; making him drop a lil on the list. It would increase his punish game by a mile with just a bit more speed. He gets his job done in the end and is balanced thats why imo hes a solid Mid.

 

[Croi]

The Lucario boards are currently discussing the Dark Pit MU if you guys want to pitch in.

Are Pit and Dark Pit so similar that the MUs are basically interchangeable? If so, one less discussion would be pretty nice.

 

[SoulRed12]

The Lucario boards are currently discussing the Dark Pit MU if you guys want to pitch in.

Are Pit and Dark Pit so similar that the MUs are basically interchangeable? If so, one less discussion would be pretty nice.

Yeah, I'd say so. Even the differences they have in side+B and f-tilt only come into play if you first get hit by the move. With arrows, it's just a matter of controllability (Pit) vs. slightly more damage (DP), which IMO doesn't really change things enough to call it two different matchups.

 

[FiXalaS]

controllable arrows and and moves that may kill earlier make quite a difference I would say.

 

[ZephyrZ]

controllable arrows and and moves that may kill earlier make quite a difference I would say.

Not enough of a difference to make the matchup all that different.

Pit's F-tilt kills at like, what, 170%? It makes Pit slightly better then Pittoo, but not enough for the two to play any differently.
And while Upperdash kills more reliably, it's still far from a reliable move because of how punishable and laggy it is.

I interchange the two characters all the time, and I the the only move here that makes any significant difference is the arrows.

 

[ReRaze]

I think dark pit kills at 170%, pit kills alot earlier, like 100-130% from experience

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think dark pit kills at 170%, pit kills alot earlier, like 100-130% from experience

I guess it might just depend on stage positioning.
Even then, it's not enough to complete change the matchup. It's just enough to make Pit a bit better.

 

[ReRaze]

I guess it might just depend on stage positioning.
Even then, it's not enough to complete change the matchup. It's just enough to make Pit a bit better.

Never said it was, they are basically identical (ftilt is seldom used to kill in the first place).....also for what it's worth dark pits ftilt can be used for jab locks where as pit cant.

Dark pits arrows also go through some things that pits arrows cant.

Also Pit is faster than dark pit aerially if the tests run by 'smash highlights' is correct

 

[ZephyrZ]

Also Pit is faster than dark pit aerially if the tests run by 'smash highlights' is correct

I believe the frame data threads says otherwise.
They're tied for the 38th fastest air speed.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I prefer Pittoo over Pit partially because I can't control Pit's arrows. Is the extra damage enough to make up for it?

 

[Wintropy]

I prefer Pittoo over Pit partially because I can't control Pit's arrows. Is the extra damage enough to make up for it?

I'd say no, since if you learn to control the arrows, you'll hit more often and rack up more damage in the long run.

But both are fine choices, it's totally up to personal preference.

 

[Dr. Snakes]

I prefer Pittoo over Pit partially because I can't control Pit's arrows. Is the extra damage enough to make up for it?

I personally don't believe so. Once you learn how to control Pit's arrows (it'll come with practice and experience), you'll hit more often, and gather more damage as a whole.

Also, can't forget that Pit's arrows can curve and gimp bad/decent recoveries of certain characters (Marth, Falcon, Mac). The trick is to hit them 3-4 times to keep them from approaching the stage. Sure, we COULD just go and edgeguard them with our awesome aerial game (3 jumps, multi-hitting aerials, AND a spike), but arrows can be a safer alternative.

tl;dr Pit's arrows outshine Pittoo's simply because of their utility and consistency. Just practice with them in training mode or on FG to get used to hitting with them.

 

[Wa_Black]

I personally don't believe so. Once you learn how to control Pit's arrows (it'll come with practice and experience), you'll hit more often, and gather more damage as a whole.

Also, can't forget that Pit's arrows can curve and gimp bad/decent recoveries of certain characters (Marth, Falcon, Mac). The trick is to hit them 3-4 times to keep them from approaching the stage. Sure, we COULD just go and edgeguard them with our awesome aerial game (3 jumps, multi-hitting aerials, AND a spike), but arrows can be a safer alternative.

tl;dr Pit's arrows outshine Pittoo's simply because of their utility and consistency. Just practice with them in training mode or on FG to get used to hitting with them.

Preach. I just got whooped by a pit the other day because I didn't know you couldn't short hop against him. If you do, you take an arrow to the face and if you dodge, you land with lag and get punished. Try and get in on the ground, ftilt, side b, and then you have to worry about all the fundamental options he has like the jab, block, dodge mix ups. I found the safest way to get in on people with dark was to hop in bait/punish an attack or fast fall grab, but those arrows are quick!

 

[Dr. Snakes]

Their arrows are quick, but they have quite a bit of lag on each shot. If they mis-space themselves and use it while their opponent is too close, they open themselves up for a punish. This is especially true for opponents who like to walk towards you while powershielding.

Pit has to commit to his aerials somewhat, since the auto-cancel frames for each are towards the end of the moves animation. If you're playing a character that can go under his aerials (Mario comes to mind), your best bet is just going underneath him and trying to catch his landing. Though this only specific to a few aerials (Fair, Bair, sometimes Nair), it's a nice thing to know. Generally with character that like to wall you out with aerials, getting behind them is usually the goal.

More Pit players need to Dair OoS. It's a nice option to pick people up for followup, and it covers both sides well.

 

[Wa_Black]

Their arrows are quick, but they have quite a bit of lag on each shot. If they mis-space themselves and use it while their opponent is too close, they open themselves up for a punish. This is especially true for opponents who like to walk towards you while powershielding.

Pit has to commit to his aerials somewhat, since the auto-cancel frames for each are towards the end of the moves animation. If you're playing a character that can go under his aerials (Mario comes to mind), your best bet is just going underneath him and trying to catch his landing. Though this only specific to a few aerials (Fair, Bair, sometimes Nair), it's a nice thing to know. Generally with character that like to wall you out with aerials, getting behind them is usually the goal.

More Pit players need to Dair OoS. It's a nice option to pick people up for followup, and it covers both sides well.

isn't dair punishable on hit below average percents?

 

[ReRaze]

isn't dair punishable on hit below average percents?

Not if you don't get the spike and if you do spike (on stage that is) pretty sure you have enough time to jump away while air dodging.

 

[FiXalaS]

Not if you don't get the spike and if you do spike (on stage that is) pretty sure you have enough time to jump away while air dodging.

If you spike 'then' land you can get punished, sometimes happen with me by misplaying.

 

[ReRaze]

If you spike 'then' land you can get punished, sometimes happen with me by misplaying.

Yes thats true but If you do a short hop dair you have just enough time to jump again before touching the ground meaning you can air dodge or just land and shield instantly. So it is quite difficult to punish. If you mistime it however and land before the move is finished you can get punished cuz of the landing lag.

 

[SC | Chrollo]

The only reason I play pit over dark pit is so that I can yell out 360 NO SCOPE in the room and pivot pit back and forth then fire. The added flexibility with his arrows allows me to hit people more often then not XD

 

[Wa_Black]

So how good is jab? If its a transcendent hitbox, we should be able to cancel moves like pk fire, or even counter spin dash.

 

[ReRaze]

So how good is jab? If its a transcendent hitbox, we should be able to cancel moves like pk fire, or even counter spin dash.

wait is pits jab transcendant?

 

[meleebrawler]

So how good is jab? If its a transcendent hitbox, we should be able to cancel moves like pk fire, or even counter spin dash.

Actually if it was transcendent PK Fire would just fly through it, though you would be right about spin dash.
Transcendent doesn't mean "beats everything" though there are moves like that in this game (Palutena's shield
attacks, Bowser and G&W's Usmashes), it means the move doesn't clash with anything.

But anyway, I'm pretty sure the jab isn't transcendent. It's still a good boxing tool though, just don't use the multi-hit.

 

[Cazdon]

So Pit's pivot grab is excellent in it's range and speed. But I'm having trouble pulling them off consistently sometimes when I turn and hit the grab button to pivot grab, I just end up doing a pivot f-tilt, and that has cost me a few times now. Anyone know why this happens or is it just me being a scrub?

 

[ReRaze]

So Pit's pivot grab is excellent in it's range and speed. But I'm having trouble pulling them off consistently sometimes when I turn and hit the grab button to pivot grab, I just end up doing a pivot f-tilt, and that has cost me a few times now. Anyone know why this happens or is it just me being a scrub?

use to happen to me, all you have to do is flick the stick faster and push grab faster as well.

Not really sure why it happens but i think it has something to do with the fact that you can use shield and normal attack button together to grab.

 

[Cazdon]

use to happen to me, all you have to do is flick the stick faster and push grab faster as well.

Not really sure why it happens but i think it has something to do with the fact that you can use shield and normal attack button together to grab.

I tried this out a little bit and you seem to be right, it is a speed thing, so now I can pull them off more consistent. Thanks!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is now analyzing Dark Pit at her match-up analysis thread. Make sure that if you're going to contribute to the Rosalina vs. Dark Pit match-up, that you're using Dark Pit, and not Pit. Dark Pit will be analyzed until the end of 3/21.

 

[Wa_Black]

Actually if it was transcendent PK Fire would just fly through it, though you would be right about spin dash.
Transcendent doesn't mean "beats everything" though there are moves like that in this game (Palutena's shield
attacks, Bowser and G&W's Usmashes), it means the move doesn't clash with anything.

But anyway, I'm pretty sure the jab isn't transcendent. It's still a good boxing tool though, just don't use the multi-hit.

I meant disjointed. And I was only referring to a single jab unless you confirm it, but I was thinking about using it for space control because you can cover a lot of options with it.

 

[FiXalaS]

sometimes I do a really slow 3 hit jab (my friends get mad) and it really messes up their play and plans.

 

[LancerStaff]

So Pit's pivot grab is excellent in it's range and speed. But I'm having trouble pulling them off consistently sometimes when I turn and hit the grab button to pivot grab, I just end up doing a pivot f-tilt, and that has cost me a few times now. Anyone know why this happens or is it just me being a scrub?

You can press grab about a frame before pressing back, but not for pivot grabs and Smashes.

 

[Dr. Snakes]

Pivot Smashes and Tilts typically come out when you input a few frames after you perform the Pivot. Pivot Grabs happen when you input a Grab at the same time as the Pivot.

 

[LancerStaff]

You sure?

Meh. I suck at explaining timing stuff either way.

 

[SoulRed12]

As we all should know, Pit can have a bit of trouble killing at times. He has very specific kill moves, namely forward smash, side+B, and forward throw. (of course, other moves CAN be kill moves under the right circumstances, but I think these are the most common kill hits.)

Unfortunately a lot of times even when the opponent is in kill range, I tend to just play and get my kills by recognizing an opening, rather than actually creating it.

So, what strategies do you use to actively create your openings for a forward smash, side+B, or edge-of-stage forward throw? Keeping in mind an opponent who understands what Pit's options are and will try to avoid it.

 

[ReRaze]

Grab release into upperdash or fsmash works occasinally for the kill. Especially if your opponent is mashing to escape and they start mashing the a button you can power through their attack with upperdash.

Dsmash baiting. Dsmash has very decieving end lag and people often try to punish it. This is where you can either down smash again or fsmash if you have enough space. Works really well if you don't show how little lag dsmash has throughout the match, even skilled players occasionally forget.

Ledge optons; Shield near the ledge. If they go for a getup attack or aerial against your shield (for whatever reason made them think it would work) you can shield grab them. More often though they will for a Roll, Jump or Normal get up. If they roll you can try predict it and go for the upperdash or fsmash. If they jump you can jump cancel up smash OoS on reaction or uair to catch them for extra damage. If they use normal get up, its a little harder to punish but not impossible, i normally just spam jab or grab as they are the safest options.

Shooting an arrow upwards has almost no lag and can possibly lead to frame traps for smash attacks whether they air dodge or not.

 

[O1DsLeNdYwHiTe]

F-Smash

• Double-Jab cancel: Utilizing this after a two hit jab, and immediately following up with a well timed f-smash usually throws a lot of people off guard who expect the third hit or a grab, with the proper conditioning of course. It's even effective to poke at your opponent's shield with two jabs, slightly walk away, and immediately turn around and f-smash them with proper spacing. To further condition them, I recommend poking at their shield and walking away without further input. This will most likely throw them off.
• Air-dodge conditioning: Consistently hit your opponent with Pit's simple bread and butter d-throw combos, ( uair, nair, dair, up-smash ), short hop empty uairs, and even jumping up at them and doing nothing. This will condition your opponent to expect one of those three options ( when not utilized in a predictable pattern of course ), making them more than likely to fall into a properly placed f-smash after either empty short-hopping or slightly walking forward.
• The ledge; This is all about reading your opponent, and even picking up on their bad habits. F-smash is such a well spaced move and covers a majority of he area in front of Pit believe it or not, so if you force your opponent onto the ledge and anticipate a roll Onto the stage, a get-up attack or just a get up, you can walk away, space accordingly depending on what you think their best option is, and then let them have it.

Side-B

• Running past shield: Again, condition them, condition them into putting up their shield when you run at them. Make them believe that's their safest option. Also run past their shield once or twice without doing anything to make them feel obligated to drop it and run after you, that way they won't expect you to lunge at them with the upper-dash arm when they attempt to charge you.
• Punishing moves with end-lag; Self explanatory.

 

[waddicto]

My favorite for setting up kills is an empty nair to fsmash. I'm not sure if the nair autocancels or just has really low landing lag (i'll presume it's autocancelled)

Anyways, if you do an empty nair without fastfalling it will probably (I hope it does!) auto cancel and the opponent then thinks they can punish. But no, the one who is a fool are they, for if you do a fsmash RIGHT when landing after the empty nair right in front of them, they will get blown away. The only way I can see this not working is against jabs such as Little Mac's or ZSS's but even then, you can just nair a few inches away since Pit's fsmash has such great range. It's also possible for them to shield, which is why you shouldn't do this often.

 

[_Darkpit_]

I'm sorry for this because its not the topic but I've a question.

Do you think this is real???

http://mydadworksatnintendo.tumblr.com/post/95847055746/hello-nintendo-fans-i-have-some-inside

Does SSB4 make Kid Icarus more popular??