Turnaround-Bs, B-reverses and Wavebounces: Know the difference!

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#1
Hey guys. This was a guide I made for Brawl, and since Smash 3DS is out already and I've been able to confirm that these techniques also exist (and are the same) in Smash 3DS, I'm going to bring it here so you guys can get an early edge on the competition!

Video demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0jgnFEZqLY (I used a Brawl video as I don't have Smash 3DS footage yet, but again it's the same between games)

Only changes the direction your character is facing when performing a special.
Input (for neutral B): Flick back on the analog stick, allow it to return to neutral, then press B immediately after.
OR, press B while holding back very slightly on the analog stick. If done correctly you will perform a turnaround neutral B rather than doing a sideB.

Input (for sideB): The equivalent of doing a sideB in the opposite direction. For example, facing left, and doing a sideB by pressing right+B.

Input (for upB/downB): Simply hold diagonally (up/down)+back and press B.

Don't get confused! Turnaround sideBs, upBs and downBs have been fairly intuitive in all Smash iterations thus far, so you may have never thought of them as advanced techniques, but rather just 'backwards' sideBs, upBs, and downBs. You've been doing an AT all along!

Changes the direction your character is facing as well as the direction of their aerial momentum when performing a special.
Input (for neutral B): Press B, then immediately press back on the analog stick.

Input (for sideB): Press forward+B, then immediately press back on the analog stick. For example, facing left, perform a sideB by pressing left+B, then immediately press right on the analog stick.

Input (for upB/downB): Press (up/down)+B, then immediately press back on the analog stick.

Not a unique AT in and of itself, it is actually a turnaround-B-reverse; the application of both a turnaround-B and a B-reverse onto the same special. It only changes the direction of your aerial momentum.
Input (for neutral B): Flick back on the analog stick, allow it to return to neutral, press B immediately after, then press forward on the analog stick.
OR, press B while holding back very slightly on the analog stick, then press forward on the analog.

Input (for sideB): Perform a backwards sideB, and then press forward on the analog stick. For example, while facing left, press right+B, then press left immediately after.

Input (for upB/downB): Perform a backwards up/downB, then press forward on the analog stick. For example, while facing left, press diagonally (up/down)+right+B, then press left on the analog stick.




Note 1) "Back" and "backwards" refer to the direction opposite to the direction your character is initially facing.

Note 2) Some specials cannot be turnaround-B'd and/or wavebounced. Since I only have the demo so far, I cannot compile a list of which specials you can and can't apply these techniques to. If anyone who has the full game with all the characters is willing to compile a list, I'd be more than happy to edit it into the OP.

Note 3) As a wavebounce is the application of both a turnaround-B and a B-reverse onto the same special, any move that cannot be turnaround-B'd and/or B-reversed cannot be wavebounced.

Note 4) B-reverses and wavebounces can be made easier or harder depending on the direction in which your character is already moving, and whether it's possible to apply a turnaround-B to the given special.

Let's pretend you are in the air, facing left, but you are holding right, so your character is falling to the right. Since the analog is already being held backwards, performing a wavebounce will feel very similar to a B-reverse while moving forward. This is because you don't have to switch directions or make any additional effort to include the turnaround-B, as this will naturally occur given that you are already holding backwards. Thus, all it feels like you're doing is performing the special by pressing the B button, then pressing the analog in the opposite direction (left), which makes it feel like a B-reverse. But remember, if it includes both a turnaround-B and a B-reverse (meaning that it only produces a momentum shift), it's a wavebounce, even if it feels like a B-reverse!

Same scenario as above; facing left, holding and moving right. Performing a B-reverse rather than a wavebounce means that you now have to avoid performing a turnaround-B. This affects each special in a different way.
B-reversed sideB while moving backwards) This will feel harder because you'll have to move the analog quickly (so that you're still moving backwards without losing much airspeed) to the left, press B while inputting left with the analog, and then move the analog back to the right. This process of moving the analog twice makes it feel similar to a wavebounce, but this is only because additional effort is required to avoid performing a turnaround-sideB.
B-reversed upB/downB while moving backwards) This will not feel any harder if you play a character whose upB/downB cannot be turnaround-B'd, because then you could just perform the up/downB even while holding diagonally backwards+up/down and you wouldn't have to worry about accidentally wavebouncing rather than performing a turnaround-B. However, if your character can turnaround-upB/downB, you will have to make sure you hold the analog straight up/down (rather than diagonally backwards, which would lead to a turnaround-B and, by extension, a wavebounce rather than a B-reverse). Thus, B-reversed up/downBs become a little bit harder when moving backwards because you have to be a bit more careful with your analog inputs, but (imo) this increase in difficulty is much smaller than the increase in difficulty that comes with trying to perform a B-reversed sideB when moving backwards.
B-reversed neutral B while moving backwards) Because you were initially holding and moving backwards at the beginning of this scenario, simply allowing the analog to return to neutral and then pressing B immediately after may result in accidentally performing a turnaround-neutral B, which (after the following B-reverse) would ultimately produce a wavebounced neutral B. There are two ways to avoid this. The first would be to flick the analog left to ensure that you don't perform a turnaround-B onto the neutral B. This is similar to performing a B-reversed sideB while moving backwards because you have to make additional effort (via an additional analog input) to avoid the turnaround-B. The second way to do this would be to allow the analog to return to neutral, and wait until the turnaround-B input window is over (I believe this was around 20 frames in Brawl, dunno about Smash 3DS). So performing this can either become harder or slower, depending on which option you choose.
 
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#4
It's convenient to have this up early so everyone can avoid the confusion and debate. The video is simple as well as a great learning tool. It's straight to the point
 
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#6
So that's how wavebouncing works. I never knew it was combination of a turnaround and B-reverse.
Yup. That's why if you tried to wavebounce a move such as Samus' sideB in Brawl (the missile, which can be turnaround-B'd but cannot be B-reversed), you would just produce a turnaround sideB.
 
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Chiroz

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#8
I cannot wavebounce without a C-Stick or being able to map my jump to a different button. I am trying really hard and it's not working. Any tips for me? Which character from the demo is it easiest to "nail the mechanic down"?
 

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#9
cant wait to abuse this with marths shieldbreaker. now that air dodge is nerfed as a defensive approach i think this option will be very strong.
 

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#10
Seriously could someone give me some tips how to do the wavebounce with Neutral B? I could do it in Brawl 4 years ago but I seem to not be able to do it on the 3DS. I can Turnaround B and I can B-Reversal with 100% consistency and I can wavebounce Side and Down B but I can't wavebounce Neutral B even once :S.
 
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san.

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#12
I think the timeframe where you go from turnaround-B to neutral is much lower in SSB4, making manual wavebounces incredibly difficult. In Brawl, I recall being able to hold back a direction and ensuring it would turnaround-B without fail if I didn't move the other way.
 
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Chiroz

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#13
I think the timeframe where you go from turnaround-B to neutral is much lower in SSB4, making manual wavebounces incredibly difficult. In Brawl, I recall being able to hold back a direction and ensuring it would turnaround-B without fail if I didn't move the other way.

I was able to get a few wavebounce'd Neutral B's yesterday while trying to do something else amusingly. I still can't quite get the timing down but at least now I have a vague idea of the approximate timing.
 

Gea

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#14
I cannot wavebounce without a C-Stick or being able to map my jump to a different button. I am trying really hard and it's not working. Any tips for me? Which character from the demo is it easiest to "nail the mechanic down"?
I think the timeframe where you go from turnaround-B to neutral is much lower in SSB4, making manual wavebounces incredibly difficult. In Brawl, I recall being able to hold back a direction and ensuring it would turnaround-B without fail if I didn't move the other way.
This may not be 100% right, but here is what I think is going on in smash 4. To turnaround a B move, you have to decide on a direction and fire before the apex of your jump or you cannot switch the direction. This could be messing with wavebounces.
 
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#15
That's not the case at all, you can turnaroundB at any point, regardless of your height or how/when you jumped. You don't even have to jump per se, you just have to be in the air (so you can run offstage or get hit/thrown into the air)
 

Chiroz

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#16
This may not be 100% right, but here is what I think is going on in smash 4. To turnaround a B move, you have to decide on a direction and fire before the apex of your jump or you cannot switch the direction. This could be messing with wavebounces.

I can now wavebounce correctly. The problem is the timing is much tighter on the 3DS, plus it's harder with the circle pad because it slips a lot.
 

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#17
I learned how to wavebounce around 1/3 of the time, but it's too difficult to do consistently with the altered timing.
 

Gea

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#18
That's not the case at all, you can turnaroundB at any point, regardless of your height or how/when you jumped. You don't even have to jump per se, you just have to be in the air (so you can run offstage or get hit/thrown into the air)
Then my 3DS is acting pretty strange. I know you can 100% at any point in Melee and Brawl. I'm sitting here testing it on the 3DS and can only turnaround B without B-reversing before the apex of my jump. Pick Mario, jump off fireball forward. Tap back and neutral out. Fireball. You will not turn around.

Tried walkoff fireball as well. I can be DIing backwards and still fireball forwards.
 
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#19
Pretty sure it's either just your execution or your circle pad. I'm trying it right now and I'm able to turnaroundB, b-reverse and wavebounce Mario's fireballs at all heights.

Edit: While messing around I noticed something cool. Since Smash 4's pivot mechanics are a bit different than Brawl's (eg it's really easy to be running and then do a pivot ftilt), it becomes really easy to do a running pivot sideB (ie you don't have to b-reverse it), and you can do a running turnaround neutralB though it's fairly difficult cause you can't use the method that involves flicking back, letting the analog return to neutral, and then pressing B, as this will cause your skid animation to last til its natural end. Instead you have to do it by holding slightly back on the analog.

This means that characters who can't b-reverse their sideB can still do running turnaround sideBs and they're functionally the same. Same for chars who can't b-reverse their nB though this is a fair bit harder.
 
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Gea

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#20
Alright, did some more testing. You are right but... and once again, this could be due to my slidepad (though it really seems in good condition). In past games, if you hit backwards and then neutraled out, you can wait for some time, hit B, and still turnaround. In the 3DS version, I can't get that to be the case no matter how gentle I am. In fact, for this to work not rising (dunno why it's so much easier rising) I have to hold just enough off neutral to register as a slow walk but not as a side B. This is definitely not the case in Melee or Brawl (as I just went to go test to make sure I wasn't crazy).

I can B -reversal at any time easily.
 
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#21
I don't quite follow. Are you saying that the amount of time you can leave the analog at neutral before pressing B is smaller in Smash 4 than it was in Melee/Brawl? Or are you saying that you can't allow the analog to return to neutral at all, and you have to turnaroundB by holding back very slightly?

The former may be true but I haven't really noticed any difference. I'm like 99% sure the latter isn't true, lemme test now...

The window definitely seems smaller than it was in Brawl, but you can definitely turnaround nB with the analog at neutral. You don't HAVE to hold it back slightly, though that seems fairly easy to do (ie the physical window for a soft-back input is larger, whether it's because of the nature of the 3DS' analog or the game's engine, I wouldn't be able to tell you)
 

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#23
do you have to hit B turnarounds a bit slower in smash 4? like at the apex of jump or something? cant get timing down compared to in melee
 
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#24
The timing does not change depending on where you are vertically in the jump, it has nothing to do with the jump. And no there's no minimum delay, as long as you don't input back and special on the same frame (which would produce a sideB) it will work. Of course if you input it too slowly, you'll just get a regular special
 
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