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TSM | ZeRo - Let's Talk: Bayonetta Drama

In the Smash 4 community Bayonetta has been the current cause for drama and discussion. The newest DLC and essentially the winner of the Super Smash Bros. Ballot, Bayonetta has stunned many with her impressive combo game and many powerful tools. Some have called for a ban against her even this early on and the debates on her range from polite to fiery across the board. TSM's own ZeRo, the Chillean master of Smash 4 famous for his massive tournament winning streak, has created a video to share his thoughts on the matter and promote discussion on the subject. Agree with what he has to say?


A lot of points were made in this video and we encourage our readers to discuss them in the comments below. Where will Bayonetta end up in competitive play? Will she be nerfed? Only time can tell but we promise Smashboards will be there to report the story as it develops.
 

Comments

I know Sakurai loves making fighters true to themselves, but sometimes that needs to be sacrificed for the sake of balancing.

Bayonetta can still 0-death you if they read your D.I, and don't even think that they won't at tournament level. Bayonetta, as a character in Smash, is unbalanced beyond belief because she invalidates characters entirely.
Every heavy in the game suffers massively in the Bayo matchup in tournament play just for being a heavy, making them into cannon fodder for her to rip to pieces because of her combos and essentially negating their tournament presence entirely.

This sort of issue is something I can't think anybody would be behind just because they main Bayonetta. Of course, I may be wrong; because it appears she has such staunch defenders crying "SHE'S NOT BROKEN YOU CAN BEAT HER!"

I shouldn't need to switch mains for one MU. Shiek and Zamus were hard, but doable matches for a heavy. Bayo is not a doable match at all for heavies, or if she is the MU is so insanely difficult that it's just not worth it.

Bayonetta is cancerous to the diversity of the Smash 4 meta, just like Meta Knight and Icies were in Brawl. I don't care how you claim she isn't, but ANY character that can utterly negate others soley based on a single attribute is a character that is cancerous to a metagame.

Why do you think Street Fighter tournaments ban Akuma? Because he's so good that it overcentralizes the meta around "which character can beat Akuma the best" rather than "which character has the best MU spread". Basically, a cancerous character for a meta.

Bayonetta, as much as I'm no proponent of banning characters, is a character that may need regulating or an outright ban in order to prevent metagame stagnation from occuring. I hesitate in saying we should look into banning her, but this is an option we might need to look into should she prove overwhelmingly dominant in tournaments.
I was going to say it better but I couldn't.
 
Brawl players were told to git gud for 6+ years. Smash 4 players get Bayonetta for 2 months and lose their minds.
I know you're making a joke here, but you know pretty well that the community's experience with Metaknight (and later ICs) is probably WHY they are freaking out. Who really wants to go through that long debate again?
 
Bayonetta has only been released for like a tad over a month now. She has actual defined weaknesses and strengths, and no, she won't ruin the meta. That's really absurd to think.
 
I need to point this out, as an immediate devil's advocate to Quantumpen especially: Bayonetta is meant to encourage players to show finesse as a way of foregoing DPS for pressure and burst damage. There's an RPS triangle I recently figured out with that, by the way:
Burst Damage surprises Pressure
Pressure walls DPS
DPS evades Burst Damage

IMO, people are so used to DPS ability being efficient that Bayonetta does show shock factor aplenty. Witch Time is meant to showcase how Bayonetta laughs at DPS in general.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVmCW3cQInE
The first match there is literally my first experience against a Bayonetta. WT wasn't able to hold me from the win then because things like Back Air pressure would make it more sane to bait out. Her melee being so focused on defense means walking and turning back, both of which are signs of the player's own finesse, are both useful. If I'm a slow player, then the matches in general in this video just showcase what I'm talking about.

That said, though, I will agree that the 0-Death is dumb. The cornerstone of Affinity Play is that a given character has sufficient weaknesses to reward the other player for being that character, likely in addition to their own, not simply punish the other player for not being that character. Bayonetta, by having a 0-Death, ends up taking her finesse demand too far. I get that she's a Glass Cannon, but if that's the justification, she should be vulnerable enough to 0-Deaths herself. She inevitably isn't, so it's clear the 0-Death has to be an emergent exploit. But the real issue if you could even accept that is Witch Time itself. There should enough reason for Bayonetta to roll in place of WT, so that her bad rolls get exposed as such. With WT having too much reward for too little risk, Bayonetta wouldn't want to bother rolling and risk eating a standard Down Smash. Side B doesn't help matters because it has unwelcome amounts of priority too.

Honestly, I think Bayonetta needs patching with careful review. Fortunately, not everybody out there uses the 0-Death so that helps.
 
I stopped reading here. Disagree with the man, but calling zero a scrub is essentially saying your opinion on this issue is not one worth having. He could beat you at smash with one hand tied behind his back.
Yeah, I worded it badly. I meant if I heard this opinion out of context with someone elses voice, I would think it was a for glory player with some OK explanations for his opinions, I was unclear, my bad
 
All I can say it that when I use Bayo and play against a skilled, patient player I feel like my options are incredibly limited. If my opponents literally does nothing but shield and grab, all I can do is counter with my own grabs, which bayo gets nothing out of. By not throwing out moves recklessly With Time is taken out of the equation completely. Dtilt is punishable inside max range, and dive kick just gets shielded. Sure its safe, but unless you are daft she wont get a follow up. Its actually very difficult for her to beat this playstyle.

Im not gonna argue whether or not she is OP any longer. All I can do at this point is speak from my own experiences.
 
All I can say it that when I use Bayo and play against a skilled, patient player I feel like my options are incredibly limited. If my opponents literally does nothing but shield and grab, all I can do is counter with my own grabs, which bayo gets nothing out of. By not throwing out moves recklessly With Time is taken out of the equation completely. Dtilt is punishable inside max range, and dive kick just gets shielded. Sure its safe, but unless you are daft she wont get a follow up. Its actually very difficult for her to beat this playstyle.

Im not gonna argue whether or not she is OP any longer. All I can do at this point is speak from my own experiences.
If you're bothered by patient people, you might be interested in this replay from yours truly:
-Name: Back Air press(u)re
-Mode: For Glory 1V1
-Players: MKDH (Bayonetta) VS Squacht (Lucas)
-Stage: Yoshi's Island Omega
-Date: 3/30/2016

I used Back Air pressure (hence the name) because Bayonetta's Back Airs hit low. Squacht was notably fond of shorthopped stuff so full jumps of my own facing back made Back Airs a definite threat. I had to stack on the creativity, though, because Back Airs are still unsafe on shield and I was experiencing that any time I used the Forward Tilt (which is useful, believe me) would cost me the Back Air option immediately, so Bayonetta retains her Affinity Play. It's still useful anyway when you can mix in empty jumps to provide the consistent threat of a surprise Smash. Just remember to be careful, because this can get you rushed.
 
If you're bothered by patient people, you might be interested in this replay from yours truly:
-Name: Back Air press(u)re
-Mode: For Glory 1V1
-Players: MKDH (Bayonetta) VS Squacht (Lucas)
-Stage: Yoshi's Island Omega
-Date: 3/30/2016

I used Back Air pressure (hence the name) because Bayonetta's Back Airs hit low. Squacht was notably fond of shorthopped stuff so full jumps of my own facing back made Back Airs a definite threat. I had to stack on the creativity, though, because Back Airs are still unsafe on shield and I was experiencing that any time I used the Forward Tilt (which is useful, believe me) would cost me the Back Air option immediately, so Bayonetta retains her Affinity Play. It's still useful anyway when you can mix in empty jumps to provide the consistent threat of a surprise Smash. Just remember to be careful, because this can get you rushed.
Ill check it out. Im a huge proponent of Bayo's ftilt. I like playing against patient players because it makes you play more honest. Conversely, I think Bayo makes opponents play more honestly too, which is one thing I really like that she brings to the game.
 
I'm not going to go on why Bayo is strong or not. What I do hate is how ZeRo mentions things about Bayo that applied to pre-patch Sheik.

"Playing against Bayonetta is toxic, because it creates an environment where people don't enjoy playing"

Well so did Sheik but that didn't stop him now did it? Do I have to remind him that he spammed Dthrow 4 times to Ranai at in order to take the game? I don't think there's a sane human in this world that would enjoy losing like that. Especially considering that she used to rival Marth's range, out-rushes Falcon and can camp harder than a lot of projectile users.

"Adapt, but why do that? When people are forced to adapt they often end up quitting."

What was it that ZeRo called the players here in smashboards when they complained about Sheik? Oh right, lazy and ignorant. And that we should just learn the Sheik MU, a.k.a., Adapt. Well look who's talking **** now!

"Sheik is very difficult to play, much more than Bayonetta"

While I do agree Sheik is harder to play than Bayo, don't over exaggerate either. Any decent player can become a really good Sheik in a week or two considering what tools she had at her disposal. I mean, it wasn't that hard to Fthrow -> Down B, or convert out of Fairs and then finally Dthrow -> Up B/Uair. In a sticky neutral situation? Spam needles. Rinse and repeat till win. A truly hard character to learn would be Peach, Megaman or Ryu.

I just...at first I didn't mind ZeRo but now I find him so damn annoying.
I could have said this any better myself.
This all would apply to Pre-Patch Diddy too, as ZeRo played him as well.

ZeRo just keeps sounding more and more hypocritical.
 
Before I start, I still think the 0-Deaths are stupid. However, I think the only active patching needing to be done would be to reduce the KB and damage from Side B, which itself is generally annoying anyway. Preventing the 0-Deaths from working, either against intuitive DI or at all, would be great, and I haven't seen a 0-Death that doesn't use both Side B charges.

Here's what has me believe that nerfing the Side B's KB will work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIg4MTWExGg&t=31s
I don't recall if I DIed correctly, though I probably did. I'll admit I'm confused anyway, even if I suspect that DIing the magnifying glass Witch Twist is what kept me safe. However, Ganondorf is a heavy character, so that definitely could have been a key factor in letting me wall the 0-Death attempt.

So here are my tips for dealing with Bayonetta in general, seeing as she herself still gives issue aplenty even without the 0-Deaths.

1) Face back often if your character's Back Air is standard fare
The reason for this is because standard Back Airs are your friend. The standard Back Air will be an extended back-kick, which provides both power and reach. The former allows for burst damage and the latter can hit the opponent unexpectedly. Bayonetta particularly wants nothing to do with dealing with either one. Now she can still Witch Time, but a standard Back Air works as a psychological weapon against it because of the reach and can set up for a Forward Smash or Grab this way. Just make sure you won't mind the loss of Back Air access until you can face back again if you will go ahead and use something else to attack.

2) Focus on holding the center
Grabbing the center is desirable for the space, of course, but getting complacent with center control against Bayonetta is a good way to run afoul of WT. Holding the center means that Bayonetta has to eventually attack. She can't roll between sides either because her rolls have terrible range, so direct combat with you will be inevitable, and staying around the center will help make sure it happens on your terms.

3) Set up anti-aggression traps
Witch Time--and in fact, any Counter move, really--has a subtle weakness: the user's mobility momentum drops sharply. An attack placed where it would hit the user ONLY if they don't use the Counter move is great for drawing out the Counter move and likely punishing it, and any time Bayonetta thinks twice about using Witch Time because it also stales makes her increasingly more likely to use her rolls with all the problems that can easily come with it.

4) Bullet Climax is something to consider for an entire given matchup. Do so ASAP.
Some characters, like Jigglypuff, can outmaneuver BC with immense ease when they are in the air, and this will make doing everything else significantly easier for them. If you're a character with bad air mobility and/or high height, don't expect to be so fortunate. Make use of crouching if you do want to be closer as any such character, because even if you still get shot, BC has cooldown issues while the crouching will keep you from being stunned as long. With the right position, you could manage to strike back with a vengeance.

5) Stay wary of the Side B
In its own right, Side B is a persistent threat. It can't burst KO, but it can be used to provide grief against your momentum. If you can't simply go in the air to prevent it from working nearly as well, use your dodge moves so that Bayonetta can't use it carelessly because you could get an unexpected position advantage. Naturally, you still want to go in the air, so see 4 because Bullet Climax is the primary factor against that.

6) Above all, never panic
Bayonetta doesn't have a lot of net power in general behind her. She can rack up the damage, but her kill moves are few and far between and ultimately easily identified. When her nastiest traps are disarmed, Bayonetta is bound to be the one panicking, and that will do her no favors.

Enjoy.
 
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