Trot dancing and spacing. Much like wave and dash dancing.

[bovineblitzkrieg]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not officially naming any techniques in this post. A few people have complained about what I call certain techniques, which is understandable; we don't want to have too many terms floating around. A lot of people would just call this stuff dashdancing, trotting, or whatever else... I call it trot dancing because of how you integrate all the trots and dashes together, and because it's conceptually somewhat different from Melee. Again, the terms used in this thread are not official terminology.
***********************

I'm calling this technique trotdancing and assigning terms that make sense to me from what I know and read about smash. I needed to call each technique something simply to refer to specific moves. Some of this has been said before, but a lot of it hasn't. I use ba-boom as a way to describe the rhythm of pressing the buttons, so bear with me... Also, I relate the technical aspects to Melee quite a bit... you don't have to have played Melee to understand, but you'll have a much better grasp of what I mean if you have.

Note: I haven't done this on all characters... I found it while playing around with space creatures, Pika, and Mario.

So far in threads I've seen it said that you can only foxtrot repeatedly in one direction, one foxtrot being one smash of the control stick left or right. If you wait until the first trot ends, you can dash back in the other direction, with ease. You can do this consecutively, and in both directions, and you don't fall too often. It's like dashdancing, but slower. Let the control stick center between each slam of the stick, and be sure the first trot finishes.

1st trot: |---------------|
2nd trot: _____________|---------------|

It gets better than just that. Here's how to doubletrot:

Get the rhythm. Trot back and forth repeatedly until you can do it smoothly and evenly. Think of the # of frames between each button like this:
trot1 (boom)
|------------------------------|

|-------------|
In this^ window of time, you can smash the control stick back in the other direction and then do the trot in that direction. Say you're going left to right. If you smash left and almost immediately smash back right, you'll move a little bit more to the right than if you smash left and smash right back at about the halfway point. You can double back up until the halfway point, then you can't do it anymore (it seems a bit easier to do slightly before the halfway point than right at it). I call it a double trot.


Here's what a doubletrot looks like, in terms of timing:
(_____ is put in just for spacing, it should just be empty spaces)

1st trot:|-----------------|
2nd trot:_____|-----------------|
*
and if you want to do it twice back to back (or smash, tilt, or jump), you wait until this* point, just after the beat of the ending of the second trot. It's very important you let the second trot finish completely before you start the next one. Two back to back:

1st trot: |-------------|____|-------------|
2nd trot: _____|----------|____|------------|

The rhythm is like ba-boom, ba-boom.

It get's even better than this. You can also tripletrot by doubling back twice. You perform the third trot just like the second one (in the opening frames of the first trot), but in the opening frames of the second trot. Think of the rhythm as boom-ba-boom.

Triple trot: (I'm not sure but you may be able to quadruple trot etc. as well, I don't see why not)
1st trot:|-----------------|
2nd trot: ______|-----------------|
3rd trot: _____________|-----------------|

So all of this trotting, double trotting, and triple trotting around, when done fluidly and with control and planning, is trotdancing.

Playing around with that, it dawned on me that it's just like wavedashing, except you don't have to jump then immediately hit dodge and slam the stick angled into the ground, you just slam the stick left or right instead. It's basically the same, except you don't move quite as far and there's not quite as much precise control (at least not yet). The way you control for how far your "wavedash" goes is the timing of slamming left to right. The old wavedash depended on the angle at which you held the control stick.

Trotdancing and single trots, combined, give you many of the same options as wavedashing and dashing did in Melee. You can trot once and do anything, so long as you wait for the trot to end completely... just like a wavedash. You can jump at any point in the trot animation. You can cancel a dash with an upsmash at anytime in the middle of it, just like before. For Fsmash:

Fsmash cancel:
|-----------------|
|-------|

In this time period you can cancel the trot with a Fsmash in either direction (C stick), which helps you to space the move a bit. You can retreat a little bit left and smash back right very quickly. This is new, as far as I know.

Trot, Attack:
To simply attack after a trot, wait until the entire trot has finished to smash the C stick or tilt. It's just like doing two trots consecutively, except you smash the C stick.

|-----------------|Smash
_____________ ^ here, just after the trot finishes

If you hit any attack (except Usmash) before the trot completely ends you'll do the dash attack. In practicing this, you'll probably be accidently doing a lot of dash attacks. Think of it like wavedashing, but you have to wait until the dash is completely over with to perform your next move.

I think the main things they've cut out are dash cancelled grabs and wavedashing into dsmash (which you still can do but you have to wait until the very end of the trot). You can trot Usmash and trot Fsmash, however, so that maneuver is somewhat preserved from Melee.

So there is some depth and speed to the ground game after all. I got extremely, extremely excited when I discovered the trotdance (double/triple trotting really is just like dashdancing, but calling them trots makes me think of them differently, because in my mind it's now a combination of dash and wavedash). It's almost like they kept the wavedash, just made it a lot simpler and more about timing control stick than about coordinating the timing of several buttons. I think with practice this will be very fluid, and great for spacing, much like wavedashing. They just streamlined the wavedash and dash into one.

Hopefully that compiled a lot of information into one little tutorial that is easy to understand. Let's discover and share the competitive side of Brawl!

 

[garbage]

Shut up.
10char.

 

[pockyD]

So far in threads I've seen it said that you can only foxtrot repeatedly in one direction

i've never heard anyone say that

 

[iharfor]

It isn't getting any comments but I created a post on full run turn around animation. Check it out, I think it can be coupled with foxtroting to mix things up.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151483

 

[thesage]

This looks like it could be very important, though I was kinda hoping that the AT's found in brawl wouldn't just try to emulate the ones in melee.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

i've never heard anyone say that

Maybe i'm reading the wrong threads then. I'm sure a lot of this stuff already has other names.

But to add to it, yes you can quadruple and quintupletrot, and so in into infinity (it's dashdancing, to the t, just with slightly different timing). You can also double or tripletrot into a Fsmash, which is REALLY useful, especially with Wolf's ridiculously long ranged Fsmash. I was using it during some wifi play and it helped tremendously. I definately got hit trying to dash around, but I think I'll get used to it and it'll really help my spacing... kinda like learning wavedashing.

 

[pockyD]

it's just foxtrotting

 

[TheManaLord]

WHAT are you on about? This makes no sense. This is nothing like wavedashing.

 

[magus0216]

I was just coming here to see if someone had already posted about this; I think it's going to be a pretty big technique. I found the same thing when I was playing as wolf tonight. It speeds up the game and introduces a lot of options for mind gaming your opponent. I also found it a lot easier to land multiple short hopped arials if I used the dashing techniques rather than trying to run the normal way to my opponent. For everyone complaining that the game is too slow this should start to fix that issue. The only odd part is the timing. I was able to do it easy with wolf and I was also able to do it with meta knight (his makes him basically fly on the ground). Some characters like sonic though were pretty hard to get the timing right on but I was able to hit them a few times to I think all characters should be able to do it to some extent. You can also throw in fast dash dances during all of this and still be free to dash in any direction out of it. Also you can do shield canceled grabs and shield canceled a moves and probably any other move out of the dashes. Hopefully there's some videos up soon.

 

[HeroAnri]

dunno about you newbies but there certainly is dash dancing in brawl and im doing it as im writing this...
its exactly the same as in melee cept its harder to perform because you have to be very quick and precise with it...just putting that out there

 

[Ja]

I'm having trouble visualizing this, could you make a short vid?

 

[mugwhump]

Yeah this is old.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

I figured this out and made a thread about it when the J version came out. Check the Compilation of New Techniques/Discoveries(http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142139) thread before saying anything.

 

[A New England Winter]

This is why I came here. Nice find!

I'll test w/ Ike and see if I can't get anywhere.

 

[mugwhump]

I'm really not sure what you said, but I like your use of sound effects. Though perhaps you should consider changing 'boom-ba-boom' to 'shoosh-sha-shoosh' or 'flab-fla-flab.'

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's old, but still pretty useful information. You guys don't need to flame this guy for trying to help you know.

 

[jdub03]

This is very hard to visualize through words. I also dont know what to do to test this out. A video would be better for explanation.

 

[Yuna]

Absolutely nothing of this is new. It was all already known and it also existed in Melee. And no one has claimed you can only Fox Trot in one direction. Fox Trot uses the same basics as Dash Dancing, canceling the initial animation of a Dash. Why shouldn't you to be to Foxtrot in one direction and immediately turn around?

Fox Trotting, despite what people think, also doesn't require wavedashing inbetween dashes. Simply canceling your initial dash animation over and over again is enough. As such, Fox Troting has not changed other than the timing, the risk of Tripping and the fact that we can no longer Wavedash or Dash Cancel.

To reiterate:
* None of this is new to Brawl
* None of this is new to Smashboards
* Please do not name things until it's verified it's new. We've had too much of that going on lately.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Absolutely nothing of this is new. It was all already known and it also existed in Melee. And no one has claimed you can only Fox Trot in one direction. Fox Trot uses the same basics as Dash Dancing, canceling the initial animation of a Dash. Why shouldn't you to be to Foxtrot in one direction and immediately turn around?

Fox Trotting, despite what people think, also doesn't require wavedashing inbetween dashes. Simply canceling your initial dash animation over and over again is enough. As such, Fox Troting has not changed other than the timing, the risk of Tripping and the fact that we can no longer Wavedash or Dash Cancel.

To reiterate:
* None of this is new to Brawl
* None of this is new to Smashboards

I get your points, it's not new... you couldn't have made it more clear. And I saw posts claiming you can't trot back and forth, so I wanted to refute that. Don't kill the messenger.

It hasn't been quite explained this way in the tactics thread, so I thought I'd explain how to make it more fluid. Also writing out the timing with |----| is helpful to visualize the timing. Also, it's easy for important basics like this to get buried in a compilation thread that's often full of little tricks that aren't very applicable.

You don't need to flip out about how it's been said before, I don't understand why on message board systems people are so uptight about things having been said before. Sometimes new angles of viewing things can really help people understand.

The changing of the timing is a bit different, so I wanted to explain that. Also, I wanted to explain how you can cancel the trot in the first half of the frames to Fsmash, because I haven't seen that explained well anywhere. Most people already knew you could usmash at any point during a run or trot, as it's conserved from Melee.

I just think the mechanics of this are a bit different. It's like a combination of old techniques, simplified. You can keep this type of motion moving continously, and modify your spacing, much like wavedashing, and cancel with smashes or jump, so there's a decent amount of options available. And if you wait just a bit more, you can even dsmash. I'm not saying it's wavedashing or even that it's quite as effective as wavedashing (yet), but it's somewhat similar. You have to be able to see the parallels. I think the ability to master this type of movement will create an even bigger gap between pros and novices than wavedashing did, as this looks like it'll be harder to master.

So, yes, it's not necessarily new information, but perhaps it's more clearly stated than previous threads, especially the timing. I like when techniques are well defined.

 

[Vinnie275]

FLAME WAR, GO!

Spoiler

this is not ssb64

 

[Yuna]

Because you made several mistakes.

1) You assumed from seeing two-three people stating something that the majority of people think in that same way.
2) You brought up nothing new other than what you believe to be a misunderstanding (that you can't trot back and forth), yet you wrote a very long post about it.
3) You named it. Seriously, do not name stuff, especially not on your own. You can suggest a name, but not outright name something.

All of these... things happen every day on Smashboards. And each time, it's very annoying. If you just think that the information thread should explain it better, why not PM the OP about modifying it?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Soooo.. what do you want me to do, simply not say anything? Spend hours researching what other people have said? I have better things to do.

I wrote a long post about more than just the trotting back and forth thing... Obviously. If you don't want to read such a long post, simply don't read it.

And yes, I named it, because how can I talk about it in detail if I don't assign names? It'd be obnoxious to say "that thing where you dash once to the right and cancel it in the first few frames with a dash back the other way" or "dashdance just once so you're facing the other way". It's much easier to say "doubletrot" and "trotcancel Fsmash". I'm not claiming these are the sole names of these techniques, I'm just using these names to explain them, in a way that I understand, which will hopefully make its way into the minds of others so we can expand our collective horizons.

IMO, we need to draw distinctions between Melee and Brawl techniques. Timing is different, usefulness is different, controls are different, and concepts are different. Thus, in my mind , I use different words (and don't worry, YOU don't have to use my terms). Words are just symbols for concepts, so who cares what the words are. I'm just trying to get the concept across and get feedback so I can build upon it.

Can't we just support each others' ideas in a positive fashion? We don't need to try to tear each other and everything down.

 

[Yuna]

I already told you what I think you should do:
PM the original poster of that thread you're talking about and tell him what to improve about the entry on Fox Trotting.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Okay, I'll do that, that's a good point. But, for the sake of my learning refining the my knowledge about it... I feel as though making a thread and generating discussion is a good thing, no?

Why not put it out there from my perspective, get some feedback, and then submit what I think should be improved, once I have a better grasp on the concept. The point of this thread is to spread the idea and generate discussion... kinda like the point of forums in general. If you want every idea contained to one little area, then make a website.

This is my last little argumentative post, I'd rather talk about the gameplay mechanics.

 

[Yuna]

It's not just that you made a thread. It's that you made a thread without researching it first, thinking you'd discovered something new and basing your belief that it's new on "Well, 3 people said you can't do this". It's not a biggie, but it's still a bit annoying.

Of course, this thread is much more intelligent than the majority of the threads spawned nowadays.

 

[daemonk]

I really don't care who came up with it. Yes, he made a faux pas by trying to name it. Whatever. I read about foxtrotting few weeks ago on the board, but the post never really explained the rhythm thing. This post explained in a lot more detail albeit a few mistakes. Thanks to the OP.

 

[pockyD]

there's no need to read about a "rhythm"..., fox trotting is simply repeating the initial dash animation, so LOGICALLY, you start a dash, wait for it to end, then do it again

but if it helps it helps - i have no problem with starting this thread, but when people tell you it's known, just accept that it's known and don't try to prove this is different (which it's not)

maybe your description does help people, and there's nothing wrong with having this thread to discuss it or stuff like that, but when there are 10 different terms for the same tech 2 months down the line, the community will suffer, so just keep that in mind - don't get defensive when someone tells you it's been done and there's already a name for it

 

[Kone]

yuna stop being a prick man, the guy posted an intelligent thread. If it annoys you dont read it.

 

[Yuna]

yuna stop being a prick man, the guy posted an intelligent thread. If it annoys you dont read it.

Most of it was common sense to anyone who knew what Fox Trotting is about.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

there's no need to read about a "rhythm"..., fox trotting is simply repeating the initial dash animation, so LOGICALLY, you start a dash, wait for it to end, then do it again

About the rhythm thing... I find that it really helps. All the characters seems to have the same basic rhythm in Brawl... in melee they were a lot different (like my two mains, fox a mewtwo... worlds apart). I define rhythms in back and forth wavedashes, or in Brawl's case, trots. If you can work the rhythm into your muscle memory, you can start to do some really surprising things.

And yeah you're right about it being just basic logic, but many people try to rush things and forget about extreme basics such as waiting until something ends comepletely.

 

[BentoBox]

Most of it was common sense to anyone who knew what Fox Trotting is about.

And it'd be safe to assume that with the recent influx of new meat on the boards, this thread should help quite a few. I also seriously doubt that they've all scanned SWF and thus know just about as much as anyone who's been here for a while. There is nothing wrong with this thread.

 

[pockyD]

About the rhythm thing... I find that it really helps. All the characters seems to have the same basic rhythm in Brawl... in melee they were a lot different (like my two mains, fox a mewtwo... worlds apart). I define rhythms in back and forth wavedashes, or in Brawl's case, trots. If you can work the rhythm into your muscle memory, you can start to do some really surprising things.

And yeah you're right about it being just basic logic, but many people try to rush things and forget about extreme basics such as waiting until something ends comepletely.

my point is (in melee too) the timing is different for every character, so it's best to learn it yourself via trial and error or you'll get locked in a pattern (if you use a set "rhythm", you won't be able to perform it as well with other characters

 

[pesticide]

i think this is old stuff. either way, im still gonna try it out a bit later...

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

my point is (in melee too) the timing is different for every character, so it's best to learn it yourself via trial and error or you'll get locked in a pattern (if you use a set "rhythm", you won't be able to perform it as well with other characters

Well... I simply disagree with you.

In melee, you had to learn each character's individual wavedash. That wasn't that big a deal, once you understand the rhythm, you apply the same basic principles as you would for anyone else. There's many rhythms and polyrhythms you can incorporate with different moves, doubletrots (aka dashdances), and whatever else your character is capable of... understanding them will let you control the movement with fluidity, all over the stage.

I don't see what the problem is, Brawl supposedly is more based on individual characters, right? So learn each character individually.

And honestly so far I've found the same rhythm to every character's trots. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[pockyD]

you can't tell me captain falcon and sheik's melee dashdances were anywhere near the same rhythmically

just as you can't expect me to believe that all foxtrots have the same timing

if you use the same rhythm for all chars, you'll be doing it less than optimally for most of them

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Did you read/comprehend what I said? I said learn each character individually... meaning learn each character's rhythm individually. The key word being INDIVIDUALLY.

Obviously in melee you're not going to wavedash or dashdance using the same rhythm for each character... because they're different. You learn each character's rhythm individually.

 

[pockyD]

my point is (in melee too) the timing is different for every character, so it's best to learn it yourself via trial and error or you'll get locked in a pattern

Well... I simply disagree with you.

And honestly so far I've found the same rhythm to every character's trots. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did you read/comprehend what I said? I said learn each character individually... meaning learn each character's rhythm individually. The key word being INDIVIDUALLY

that's odd because the only thing i said in my last post was that it should be learned individually, and the first thing you said was "Well... I simply disagree with you"

yes you said individually, but what you actually did here is try to agree with both sides of the argument so at the end of day, you can randomly choose one to quote and then say "i was right"

seriously, you contradict yourself within individual posts - don't expect people to "read/comprehend what you said" if you continuously do that

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Oh okay, the issue is just interpretation... here's what you said:

"my point is (in melee too) the timing is different for every character, so it's best to learn it yourself via trial and error or you'll get locked in a pattern (if you use a set "rhythm", you won't be able to perform it as well with other characters"

I thought you were saying that using rhythms in general is a bad idea. The wording made it seem like you meant that since not every character has the same rhythm, you shouldn't try to learn any rhythms... as opposed to what you meant, that each character's rhythm has differences so you can't expect one character's rhythm to translate perfectly to another. I said I disagree because you want to get locked into a rhythm so that you can effortlessly flow.

It's just semantics, I think we both are really thinking the same thing.

I'm pretty sure I didn't contradict myself, though. All I meant was that in Brawl, it seems like the rhythms of trotting are the same between characters... but I left it open by saying correct me if I'm wrong. That being said, even if trotting rhythms are the same, there's plenty of other things that are individual to each character.

edit: btw I think you should elaborate a little bit more in your posts, the interpretive problem I'm running into is just that you're not spelling out your thoughts quite enough for me to grasp the full concepts

 

[gordie]

*plugs ears*

I appreciated this thread, regardless!!!!