Translated Sakurai Famitsu Interview

[ChikoLad]

The reason why many Lucina fans are just happy to have her, is she was probably the main one of the Awakening Trio that seems less likely to make it into the game to begin with. Her similarity to Marth has always given her a number of detractors a relatively high number and even though like me that were clamoring for her early in development lost hope in the idea as it was looking more and more impossible. A lot of people are just happy to have her be a part because we were led to believe for a long time that she had no chance at all. Sometimes people don't need things to go exactly as they want to be happy about something.

Am I happy about the clone situation,no not entirely, but it's a livable situation and how it appears to have come about, I understand why it may have played out the way it did. In my opinion as par for the course there is far too much outrage involved here with too much empathize on what is being said rather then what is actually there.

Yes, and what is actually there is Marth on training wheels, hence, criticism/"outrage".

 

[Qsmash]

Very true but I would argue that the way it's phrased heavily implies that.

Would it really have been a problem if he had been 'uninteresting'? Is that really a good enough reason to not include someone in the game?

Whether something is interesting or not is very subjective and I'm sure many Chrom supporters would beg to differ with Sakurai over the matter. Chrom has the option of using Lances and Bows in his game right? Would it have been so difficult to come up with a moveset for Chrom, who uses different weapons to Marth and Ike, to establish him from other characters?

Perhaps developmental issues as opposed to moveset issues is playing a factor in all of this...

Don't get me wrong - when comes to Robin vs Chrom I fully agree with having Robin over Chrom since I'm pumped to have a Mage in Smash (although now we'll probably never see a Golden Sun rep as a playable character lol) but I do sympathise with Chrom supporters and their disappointment over him not being included. Lucina's inclusion as an actual character, whilst seeming to have no impact on Chrom's lack of inclusion, further adds salt to the wound given she is from the same game and is essentially a glorified Marth costume, making her all the things that are supposedly the reason for Chrom not being included

Well, its Sakurai's decision. Like how he said in that one interview, If the character doesn't stand out to him, then that character wont get in. It is what it is.

 

[DraginHikari]

Yes, and what is actually there is Marth on training wheels, hence, criticism/"outrage".

Mine tell me what the issue with that actually is? It not like it's that uncommon to have characters which are easier or harder to use based on skill level in fighting games so I don't really understand the real issue with this.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Ok, I am so very confused at all this....I could've sworn it was just yesterday that everyone was completely content and happy about Lucina's inclusion, and now we're arguing over Sakurai's reasoning? Come on people, she's awesome, let it go....

 

[ChikoLad]

Mine tell me what the issue with that actually is? It not like it's that uncommon to have characters which are easier or harder to use based on skill level in fighting games so I don't really understand the real issue with this.

Kirby and Mario are already designed to be beginner characters. But they are unique characters in their own right.

Lucina is just an easier to use/less interesting version of an existing character in a series that is easy enough to pickup and play as is, and is already getting custom movesets and equipment customisation to help people get a grasp on characters and fine tune them in a way that suits them. The game is also getting character specific tutorials (seen briefly in the 3DS trailer).

You cannot deny that Lucina being Marth with training wheels is redundant.

 

[DraginHikari]

Kirby and Mario are already designed to be beginner characters. But they are unique characters in their own right.

Lucina is just an easier to use/less interesting version of an existing character in a series that is easy enough to pickup and play as is, and is already getting custom movesets and equipment customisation to help people get a grasp on characters and fine tune them in a way that suits them. The game is also getting character specific tutorials (seen briefly in the 3DS trailer).

You cannot deny that Lucina being Marth with training wheels is redundant.

Not really. Because part of the problem I have with that explanation is it doesn't exactly fit the other compliant I've seen in regards to her that she is too similar to Marth, but apparently removing the tipper which would force someone to play her different is also bad. So I still don't entirely understand the problem. I'm seeing alot of mixed reasons on why it is a bad thing and it's clashing against each other.

 

[ChikoLad]

Not really. Because part of the problem I have with that explanation is it doesn't exactly fit the other compliant I've seen in regards to her that she is too similar to Marth, but apparently removing the tipper which would force someone to play her different is also bad. So I still don't entirely understand the problem. I'm seeing alot of mixed reasons on why it is a bad thing and it's clashing against each other.

It doesn't make her play differently, it just makes her less interesting.

With Marth, all of his attacks launch farther and do more damage at the tip, which gives him a good deal of control over where he launches people, since he can either hit with his tip to launch them, or hit them from anywhere else on his blade to pop them away a little. This is a really interesting mechanic that provides a lot of options regarding the relationship between combos and finishers.

Lucina is just Marth's moveset, minus that interesting mechanic. It's a negative way of differentiating her, because not only does it dumb her down, but it's not even the biggest difference to begin with. Other clones have individual moves tweaked to make them more separated. According to Sakurai, Lucina is not getting that, and is simply getting no tipper mechanic. It just makes her a character that requires little thought to use (and you could already play as Marth in such a manner).

 

[DraginHikari]

It doesn't make her play differently, it just makes her less interesting.

With Marth, all of his attacks launch farther and do more damage at the tip, which gives him a good deal of control over where he launches people, since he can either hit with his tip to launch them, or hit them from anywhere else on his blade to pop them away a little. This is a really interesting mechanic that provides a lot of options regarding the relationship between combos and finishers.

Lucina is just Marth's moveset, minus that interesting mechanic. It's a negative way of differentiating her, because not only does it dumb her down, but it's not even the biggest difference to begin with. Other clones have individual moves tweaked to make them more separated. According to Sakurai, Lucina is not getting that, and is simply getting no tipper mechanic. It just makes her a character that requires little thought to use (and you could already play as Marth in such a manner).

Fair enough of an opinion. I don't entirely agree that removing the Tipper is necessarily a negative method of differentiating her it depends how 'evening throughout the blade' actually plays from a damage and attribute standpoint, she may have similar moves but may be able to do something different with all of that. It'll be hard to say fully until we are able to play the characters more thoroughly maybe she'll be more interesting then she appears, maybe she won't. Time will be a better testament to that then anything we could debate about here.

I will admit I used the word outrage poorly and directing it at your post may have been a poor explain and was mostly a result of me posting at a bad time on a bad day after work so I will take that part back and will apologize for that fact.

 

[HugoBoss]

B-but guys, Lucina's a female! Isn't that all that matters, having gender over originality?

 

[RED PIKMIN]

sakurais a *****

 

[Deleted member]

Still, Dr. Mario being "slower and more powerful attacks than Mario" isn't really any better than what Lucina is, especially since Dr. Mario is still just Mario and had NO EXCUSE to be his own slot as opposed to a costume (and if they couldn't make him a costume then there was no need to make him a character to begin with). I can at least give Lucina the fact that she is canonically a different person to Marth and has a distinct fan base to appease to (even though her inclusion in her own slot comes off as shameless pandering), but Dr. Mario is still Mario and his fans are already acknowledged with regular Mario.

-He did have excuse. Sakurai was against the idea of him being a costume because Dr. Mario can't toss Fireballs. And before you go into the "then just replace Fireballs with pills DERP!" argument, that'd be changing properties of the attack, which Sakurai is against when it comes to the idea of costumes.
-Dr. Mario is his own character. The Dr. Mario franchise is not of main Mario canon as implied by Miyamoto in an interview (referring to Mario being a blue-collar worker as a general rule while doctors are white-collar and hinting that Mario may not have ever actually practiced medicine), the franchise having little to nothing to do with the rest of the series (unlike other Mario sub-series), the backstory and plot elements completely contradicting other games that are tied to a continuity (i.e. Wario Land 3), Brawl keeping everything associated with Dr. Mario away from the rest of the Mario content as if it had nothing to do with the Mario franchise, etc.
-Dr. Mario's fans are not acknowledged by Mario. That's an absurd thought. Dr. Mario is the star of a renowned puzzle franchise with medical themes. His plumber counterpart from the main Mario Bros. continuity doesn't reflect that.

And Toon Link is canonically a different person to Link, and was WAY more different to Link than Dr. Mario was to Mario (Toon Link has an entirely different meta game than Link, while Dr. Mario is really just Mario with a buff in strength).

Wrong on all accounts.
All Links are different reincarnations of the same individual, Hylia's Chosen Hero. Claiming WW/PH Link is not the same individual as TP Link (aside from the split timeline; they could arguably be parallel universe counterparts like Mario/Doc) is like saying the 5th Doctor and the 10th Doctor are different individuals.

Aside from that, Smash treats all Links (and Zeldas) as a single individual anyway, with Toon Link being "Link as he appeared in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass" as opposed to "The Link that appears in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass".

As for Dr. Mario just being "just Mario with a buff in strength" in the metagame? Shows you have absolutely no idea how Doc works. He's not just Mario + Strength LULZ.
Here's a (not fully complete) list of the differences between Mario and Dr. Mario:

Spoiler

-Neutral attacks 1 to 3 are slower and more damaging.
-Side Tilt has more knockback but less damage.
-Up Tilt gives more damage and knockback, but has specific trajectories (opponents in front get sent forward, opponents above get sent upward). Mario's is better for setting up combos.
-Down Tilt sends foes behind him with slightly more damage. Mario's keeps foes in front of him.
-Dash attack lasts slightly longer and doesn't weaken, sends opponents in random trajectory. Mario's sends opponents diagonally behind him and weakens over time.
-Forward Smash has less range but no sourspot (so set damage). It does less damage than the sweetspot on Mario's while giving more knockback.
-Up Smash is slightly faster and more damaging than Mario's, but does less knockback on grounded foes (while more knockback on aerial foes). It also spikes grounded foes.
-Down Smash does the same damage on both hits and is slightly more damaging than the first hit of Mario's.
-Neutral Air is an inverted sex kick. It gets stronger the longer his leg is out. Mario's is a regular sex kick that gets weaker the longer his leg is out.
-Forward Air is NOT A METEOR SMASH. Mario's is. Also, it has a sourspot, unlike Mario's.
-Back Air is less damaging, has a semi-spike trajectory and presumably has higher knockback (Mario's knockback isn't recorded at this time).
-Up Air is less damaging and presumably has higher knockback (Like above, Mario's isn't recorded).
-Down Air has an extra hit and is slightly slower from what I remember (need to compare the two again).
Grabs and throws, I don't know what difference there is other than knockback, so I can't say anything there.

-Megavitamins bounce higher, fall faster, and do more damage than Mario's Fireballs.
-Super Sheet has more horizontal range and less vertical range than Cape, does slightly more damage, and has less lag. However, it only lifts Dr. Mario in the air once as opposed to Mario's Cape, making it practically useless in recovery.
-Doc's Super Jump Punch does more damage, but hits less times. It can be cancelled while on the ground.
-Dr. Tornado hits less times than Mario Tornado, does more damage, and sends foes in a random trajectory on the final hit while Mario Tornado sends foes straight up. Also, in opposite to Mario, all hitboxes except the first one (which is just the hands) are full body; only the last hitbox on Mario's is full body. It also takes more rapid button imput to have Dr. Mario rise than Mario, leading to more recovery issues.

As for other properties:
-Higher air speed
-Cannot wall jump
-Heavier (PAL only)

The differences are more subtle than most clones, but they exist.

Yeah, we have ZSS, but I cut her some slack since she originated as a transformation mechanic in Brawl (rather than her own slot), so giving her a slot in Smash 4 is only a compromise due to transformations being a cut mechanic, plus, Metroid doesn't have too many well known characters besides Samus and Ridley. And her moveset is completely different.

Slot or no slot, she was a separate character from the standard Samus and was counted as such by Sakurai. Not only that, but regardless of not taking up a "slot" on the CSS, she took the same amount of development time as she would have if she had her own slot in Brawl.
And Sakurai making up a moveset for her (only thing Sakurai didn't fabricate for her was her Neutral Special and by association, Down Smash) to justify her appearance doesn't make her any less of a unwarranted addition than Dr. Mario.
Dr. Mario was added as a clone not because he can't be given his own style/moves (especially since Sakurai made characters like Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, and Captain Falcon from practically nothing) but because he purposely added to be a clone. If Sakurai can fabricate using a bedsheet in lieu of a Cape just to make him work as a clone, then fabricating something that actually has basis from the Dr. Mario games (such as tossing a virus beaker that can infect opponents when it hits the floor) or fabricating something to not make him a clone (such as attacking with a giant syringe or scalpel) should be just as simple.

And I meant Sakurai contradicted himself because he implied that generic sword users are something that he dislikes, yet he threw Lucina in her own slot.

You're not grasping what is being said and what occurred.
He did not actively decide Lucina was going to be thrown in as a clone for ****s and giggles let alone berate Chrom for being
a generic swordsman then throwing in Lucina for ****s and giggles right after.

The plan was, add a Fire Emblem Newcomer (Note: A Newcomer. One.). With emphasis on unique characteristics. The choices came down to Chrom and Robin, the two protagonists of Awakening. Lucina was never part of this decision. Sakurai looks at Chrom first and determines that he doesn't offer a style that differentiates from pre-existing characters without being forced. Sakurai looks at Robin and sees potential for a Magic Knight with a style that reflects elements from the home franchise (weapons and tomes that have limited use as opposed to special weapons such as Falchion or Ragnell) and takes influence from the strategy aspect of the franchise; what the series is all about. Which just so happens to tie into the character being a Tactician and all...

Lucina was planned only to serve the same function as the Female Villager, Male Wii Fit Trainer, and Female Robin; mere fanservice by serving as a specialized alternate costume. This was because of her connection to Marth, even disguising herself as him initially and taking his identity to mask who she really was. As well as her implied similarities, as she and DLC Marth not only share a design

Spoiler

but share a fighting style and animations.
However, for whatever reason, Sakurai gave the costume differing attack properties (i.e. the sword strength being equal throughout the blade). Because of this, this meant that regular Marth and "Lucina Marth" performed differently despite having the same attacks, which would skew character records for Marth. Rather than scrap the Lucina alt or scrap the different sword properties, he just made Lucina a selectable character on her own later in development (much later than when Newcomers were picked out) so that she had her own character records and wouldn't affect Marth's.
As in, a late addition based on getting around technical issues (that Sakurai CAUSED, but still), not a half-assed attempt to fill a quota planned from the start like you think the case is.

He turned down Chrom for his lack of unique characteristics. He didn't even consider Lucina for the role Chrom was turned down for and Robin was chosen for. She was given a different role where having the same characteristics to another character was a requirement. When that role was botched by Sakurai's own carelessness, he altered her role to deal with the issue his carelessness caused rather than just scrapping her altogether. If Sakurai hadn't made the error in giving Lucina different sword properties, she wouldn't be a separate clone character; she'd be a Marth alt like Sakurai intended on her being. Sakurai even comments on how she is lucky to be her own character given the circumstances that led up to it.
There is no contradiction involved. To claim there is is being ignorant.

And he certainly didn't imply he dislikes generic swordsmen, considering Marth is a generic swordsman and aside from the "really heavy" aspect of Ragnell, Ike is one too. Look at what he said again:
"At the end of the day, Chrom would just end up being another plain-old sword-wielder like Marth and Ike."
Like Marth and Ike. Like Marth and Ike.
He's not saying he dislikes generic swordsman, he's saying that Chrom offers nothing that sets him apart from the standards that Marth and Ike had set. Like them, he's just a typical swordsman. However, unlike them, he doesn't have an excuse.
When Marth was added, he was the only swordsman other than Link (then both would get late addition clones, but whatever). Marth was just a generic swordsman, but he was the generic swordsman. No other character fought with just the blade they wield; Link had an arsenal of weapons in his disposal. And even their sword styles were different. Link was just "hack n' slash, slash n' hack" while Marth had a graceful style based on finesse and speed, based on fencing.
Ike? Yeah, he's just a guy with a sword, but that sword happens to be a large, heavy Zweihänder that Ike is strong enough to swing around with one arm. A stark contrast to the speed and finesse of Marth's fighting style, this provided a style based on sheer force and brute strength as if the sword was meant to bludgeon someone to death.

Marth and Ike are nothing alike, Link also differs from them (Toon Link has a variation of Link's style for obvious reasons), only Meta Knight can claim to have the style he has (which can only be described as "Death of a Thousand Cuts"), and Pit uses a unique weapon that serves as a bow, a pair of small blades, and a double-bladed sword inspired by Darth Maul (no seriously, Sakurai mentioned that Darth Maul's double-lightsaber was an inspiration for Pit's bow) to fit whatever situation he needs it to be.
Even the Mii Swordfighter, which is a generic swordsman by default, was designed as some projectile master.

What style does Chrom have that sets him apart from all of this? In-game, he's portrayed as sort of the middle ground of Marth and Ike. Not fast enough for Marth's finesse yet not strong enough for Ike's force.
Best idea would be to give him the ability to use a weapon that isn't his signature sword, specifically a kind of Lance for some attacks. But then what? You can't have him primarily use a Lance because he's got a signature weapon, the Falchion. Not only that, but there's only so much he could do with a Lance and none of it's worth writing home about.
And then there's a better option for a lance/spear fighter in Bandana Dee....

So yeah, the "Sakurai dislikes generic swordsmen and that's why Chrom was turned down" excuse? Nothin' but crap.


Hope you enjoyed this post; it took me hours to make.

 

[Curious Villager]

Actually the Hero of Winds (aka Toon Link) Isn't related to the Spirit of the Hero at all. After Zelda send the Hero of Time back to his time that actually removed Hylia's Spirit of the Hero from existence at the Adult timeline, hence there was no hero to save the land and Hyrule got flooded, causing the events of Wind Waker. Being in need of a new hero. Thus Wind Waker Link had to go through all these trials like Skyward Sword Link had to.

In other words. Toon Link is about as related to Twilight Princess Link as Lucas is to Ness or Ike is to Marth etc.

But that's besides the current discussion I guess. Just felt like correcting on that tidbit... I suppose they are treated as the same individuals in Smash though considering ST Link....

 

[Deleted member]

The Spirit of the Hero passes on to a new Link each time, though.
And with Ganondorf being tied by fate to those who share the blood of the goddess (Zelda's decedents) and the Spirit of the Hero (Link's reincarnations) through Demise's curse, WW Link would have had to have been the rebirth of the Spirit of the Hero for him to be tied to Ganondorf by fate, wouldn't he?


Aside from that, (with how confusing and brain-hurting time travel logic can be) Oot Link may have ceased to exist in a physical form due to being sent back to the past, but considering that each Link incarnation is born long after the previous Link passes on, is it likely that he still existed spiritually to where the wait for a new Link would take longer than usual?
I could just be blowing smoke about this since my brain is tired from that long post and time travel logic fries me every time.


With the Child Timeline, in Twilight Princess, there was the new Link, but the previous one from Majora's Mask (who was the Hero of Time) was an undead specter that was able to interact with the new Link.
With both being reincarnations of the same being, how does the Spirit of the Hero work? Do they both have it? Is only the living Link in possession of it? Does the power of eternal guilt overrule the normal boundaries of both Hylia's blessing and Demise's curse?
GAAAH. Too much thinking when I'm already braindead...

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm on my phone, and there is a lot of waffle unrelated to what I said in your post (no offense). But I'll quickly address the most glaring things:

-Pills do not justify Dr. Mario being a full fledged character on the roster, they could easily just replace fireballs with pills as part of the Dr. Mario alt. Project M did just that, without changing any properties.

-The Mario franchise as a whole has no canon whatsoever. There is no established timeline, and there are a lot of elements that contradict each other (Mario can breathe underwater in the old 2D games, can't do so in 64 to Galaxy, yet can in 3D World? M'Kay). There are isolated canons (Galaxy 2 clearly comes after Galaxy 1), but the Mario franchise isn't designed to create a clear canon. That would limit the series from being milked to the end of time. I could say New Super Mario Bros. U takes place before Super Mario Bros, and it wouldn't pose any problems.

-Dr. Mario is still just Mario, and him being a doctor in that game does not contradict him being a blue collar either, since all you see him do is chug magic pills down someone's throat. He's not performing brain surgery. Should also be noted that a lot of these on the spot answers Shigsy gives related to Mario "canon" are really off hand and not be taken seriously - he even prefaces them with "I view this subject as", or something like that in most cases.

-Dr. Mario games have as much to do with legit medicinal practices as Mario Strikers has to do with the World Cup.

-Although Kikwi-Kiwi already corrected you on th difference between TP Link and Wind Waker Link, I would also like to add that regardless of any spirit reincarnation mumbo jumbo, each generation of Link lives out his own life and has his own family (which would include biological parents, hence, different person), friends, personality, upbringing, etc, that is different to other Links. Some Links hardly even know Zelda beyond their formal bond, while some of them are legitimately close to her as a friend.

-I didn't say "Sakurai dislikes generic swordsman and that's why Chrom got cut", I said that Sakurai giving up on Chrom BECAUSE he is generic to him, only to include Lucina as a generic sword user (regardless of his reasoning), is nothing but hypocrisy and bias at work, especially since Lucina being a Marth clone means Chrom could have been an Ike clone. It's also a dig at Chrom's fans.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Kirby and Mario are already designed to be beginner characters. But they are unique characters in their own right.

Lucina is just an easier to use/less interesting version of an existing character in a series that is easy enough to pickup and play as is, and is already getting custom movesets and equipment customisation to help people get a grasp on characters and fine tune them in a way that suits them. The game is also getting character specific tutorials (seen briefly in the 3DS trailer).

You cannot deny that Lucina being Marth with training wheels is redundant.

I wouldn't exactly say that she is Marth with training wheels , but more like Falco to Fox in Melee. Her design of making the swords base damage be equal throughout the blade just so happened to make it easier, then again, you could apply "Marth with training wheels" to any sword character in smash, as none of then share the same properties as him.

You never know, some Marth players may end up preferring her. I'll play with both of them, but I will never get over the satisfaction of a tippered F-smash; the shotgun tip; pulling the trigger.

Feels good, man.

Edit: Also, I don't wanna rain on your parade, but you really don't know anything about Dr. Mario in Melee, or at least what you are saying makes me draw that conclusion.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

@GoldenYuiitusin: Your post was a pleasure to read. I agree with everything that you said.

Lucina's inclusion is not related to Chrom's deconfirmation and her "cloneyness" does not reflect hypocrisy or a contradiction on Sakurai's part. Yes, Lucina was chosen to be a Marth alt rather than Chrom - and for several good reasons (which have been stated numerous times), which makes continuing with that line of argument kinda pointless.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'm not even going to get into this. Here' the bottom line:

Lucina was only added as a last minute addition to round out the roster... she wasn't planned from the beginning.

 

[DraginHikari]

I'm not even going to get into this. Here' the bottom line:

Lucina was only added as a last minute addition to round out the roster... she wasn't planned from the beginning.

I think that's the more important point, that's the actual context to this whole situation that makes the Chrom/Lucina less complicated then it actually is. Chrom nor Lucina weren't going to be seperate characters to begin with, Lucina only happened after Robin was finalized and they changed their mind in regards to the nature of Lucina as an alt made some changes and made her seperate. Could they have done this with Chrom? Well probably, but it would have definitely fit harder as Chrom doesn't snuggly fit into either Marth or Ike since he kind of falls inbetween them compared to Lucina who's apperance and physical structure fit more easily into Marth.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think that's the more important point, that's the actual context to this whole situation that makes the Chrom/Lucina less complicated then it actually is. Chrom nor Lucina weren't going to be seperate characters to begin with, Lucina only happened after Robin was finalized and they changed their mind in regards to the nature of Lucina as an alt made some changes and made her seperate. Could they have done this with Chrom? Well probably, but it would have definitely fit harder as Chrom doesn't snuggly fit into either Marth or Ike since he kind of falls inbetween them compared to Lucina who's apperance and physical structure fit more easily into Marth.

I'm sure if Chrom had been closer to Ike, and Lucina less Marth-like, it would have ended up the other way around. But you're right, Sakurai had a chance to deliver a fan-favorite, without doing much.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not even going to get into this. Here' the bottom line:

Lucina was only added as a last minute addition to round out the roster... she wasn't planned from the beginning.

But that doesn't change the fact that she's still incredibly underwhelming as a clone, which is MY main point of contention, and yes, it does make Sakurai biased when you consider he could have done to Chrom what he did to Lucina, while still doing it with Lucina, yet used the reasoning of "generic swordfighter" to not include Chrom, when he had no problem making Lucina just that. I'm not asking for a change on the matter, I'm merely pointing out a huge hole in the whole thing.

And as far as last minute additions go, I have higher standards than "Marth with training wheels":

 

[DraginHikari]

But that doesn't change the fact that she's still incredibly underwhelming as a clone, which is MY main point of contention, and yes, it does make Sakurai biased when you consider he could have done to Chrom what he did to Lucina, while still doing it with Lucina, yet used the reasoning of "generic swordfighter" to not include Chrom, when he had no problem making Lucina just that. I'm not asking for a change on the matter, I'm merely pointing out a huge hole in the whole thing.

And as far as last minute additions go, I have higher standards than "Marth with training wheels":

Expect Sonic played a role in the game getting delayed, which is why they probably did the clone route so they could avoid doing that. Sonic during Brawl, yes I could see that being worth such a delay due purely fan request levels that Lucina doesn't have. Don't think you'd have too many people who be happy of a delay for that reason.

The problem with your view on the condiction is the context on how that played out. The generic swordfighter concept was in regards to his reasoning for choosing Robin over Chrom or Lucina at the time when they made the intial character decisions. Lucina appears to have only been intented as a costume or alt choice for Marth considering her similar appearance. Then later on in development when Chrom had probably already been finalized as part of Robin's final smash, they decided to change up Lucina which was easy to do as they structure for the alt costume and basic structure was already in place.

If he had said that about Chrom and did planned to do Lucina anyway during the original decisions that would definitely be hypocritical, but based on what was put out there since all we have to go off of is what Sakuari put out there, they had not originally planned on it and it just sort of fell into place as time went along.

 

[ChikoLad]

Expect Sonic played a role in the game getting delayed, which is why they probably did the clone route so they could avoid doing that. Sonic during Brawl, yes I could see that being worth such a delay due purely fan request levels that Lucina doesn't have. Don't think you'd have too many people who be happy of a delay for that reason.

The problem with your view on the condiction is the context on how that played out. The generic swordfighter concept was in regards to his reasoning for choosing Robin over Chrom or Lucina at the time when they made the intial character decisions. Lucina appears to have only been intented as a costume or alt choice for Marth considering her similar appearance. Then later on in development when Chrom had probably already been finalized as part of Robin's final smash, they decided to change up Lucina which was easy to do as they structure for the alt costume and basic structure was already in place.

If he had said that about Chrom and did planned to do Lucina anyway during the original decisions that would definitely be hypocritical, but based on what was put out there since all we have to go off of is what Sakuari put out there, they had not originally planned on it and it just sort of fell into place as time went along.

But my point is that, did it honestly never occur to him that he made Lucina a clone, and that he could do the same for Chrom as an Ike clone? The model was there, so it couldn't have been hard.

This is why the generic swordsman thing bothers me (besides the fact that he didn't speak of it in relation to Robin, he just thought Chrom was too similar to both Ike and Marth already - which, again, is something Lucina contradicts, since she's waaaay more similar to Marth than Chrom).

It's not that I want Chrom, it's just that his reasoning for not making him playable is poor, like his reasoning for not doing a story mode.

 

[Andrex]

Ok, I am so very confused at all this....I could've sworn it was just yesterday that everyone was completely content and happy about Lucina's inclusion, and now we're arguing over Sakurai's reasoning? Come on people, she's awesome, let it go....

It bothers me people misuse this so much, lol. Telling angry people to "let it go" is not the same as someone freeing themselves of self-imposed constraints, even though they're the same words.

It reeks of shoehorning in a Frozen reference just cause.

 

[Bladeviper]

But my point is that, did it honestly never occur to him that he made Lucina a clone, and that he could do the same for Chrom as an Ike clone? The model was there, so it couldn't have been hard.

This is why the generic swordsman thing bothers me (besides the fact that he didn't speak of it in relation to Robin, he just thought Chrom was too similar to both Ike and Marth already - which, again, is something Lucina contradicts, since she's waaaay more similar to Marth than Chrom).

It's not that I want Chrom, it's just that his reasoning for not making him playable is poor, like his reasoning for not doing a story mode.

but the thing is that chrom is nothing like ike in the way they fight, lucina is like marth as she is supposed to be seen as marth for part of the game. making chrom a clone of ike makes not sense in context with the character while lucina being a clone of marth does

 

[ChikoLad]

but the thing is that chrom is nothing like ike in the way they fight, lucina is like marth as she is supposed to be seen as marth for part of the game. making chrom a clone of ike makes not sense in context with the character while lucina being a clone of marth does

Crazier things have happened.

 

[Bladeviper]

Crazier things have happened.

maybe but it at least for lucina being marth she is not really doing anything she could not possibly do in her appearance in awakening. but by making chrom a ike clone you are suddenly giving him a move that he can't do which is eruption

 

[DraginHikari]

But my point is that, did it honestly never occur to him that he made Lucina a clone, and that he could do the same for Chrom as an Ike clone? The model was there, so it couldn't have been hard.

This is why the generic swordsman thing bothers me (besides the fact that he didn't speak of it in relation to Robin, he just thought Chrom was too similar to both Ike and Marth already - which, again, is something Lucina contradicts, since she's waaaay more similar to Marth than Chrom).

It's not that I want Chrom, it's just that his reasoning for not making him playable is poor, like his reasoning for not doing a story mode.

Because we're talking about different stages of development where those kind of decisions were made. The decision to not use Chrom probably came earlier on during the development of Robin's character which from Sakurai's response seem to have come together fairly quickly as far as plans were concern. We know that Lucina was planned as an alt for Marth in the same vein of the Wii Fit Trainer or Village then at some point they found they could do something else with it and took a different direction.

The Chrom, Lucina situation is not 100% equal due to the way the development was handled in the long run for the reason. Could they have made a Ike clone, yes definitely, it would have still required more work then it did with Lucina because of where those characters were in development since Lucina had already been configured to Marth to begin with.

I will admit, Sakurai is a good developer but as far as PR invidiual, Sakurai is definitely not. Often times when he says things he doesn't considering in how his words may be taken as or he doesn't care I can't really say. As badly worded as it is I don't see so much of a contradiction as change of circumstance at different stages of development.

 

[ChikoLad]

Because we're talking about different stages of development where those kind of decisions were made. The decision to not use Chrom probably came earlier on during the development of Robin's character which from Sakurai's response seem to have come together fairly quickly as far as plans were concern. We know that Lucina was planned as an alt for Marth in the same vein of the Wii Fit Trainer or Village then at some point they found they could do something else with it and took a different direction.

The Chrom, Lucina situation is not 100% equal due to the way the development was handled in the long run for the reason. Could they have made a Ike clone, yes definitely, it would have still required more work then it did with Lucina because of where those characters were in development since Lucina had already been configured to Marth to begin with.

I will admit, Sakurai is a good developer but as far as PR invidiual, Sakurai is definitely not. Often times when he says things he doesn't considering in how his words may be taken as or he doesn't care I can't really say. As badly worded as it is I don't see so much of a contradiction as change of circumstance at different stages of development.

"Probably" does not equal "what actually happened".

It's still a contradictory statement if you take it solely by what we have, and not speculating dev stages.

But you are right on the money when it comes to Sakurai as a PR individual, more or less, which is essentialy what I'm pointing out when I say he is saying contradictory things. Regardless of what I personally think of Lucina or Chrom, I'm just seeing bias on his end, if this article were to be taken as 100% his thoughts without any translation errors on the translator's part, and without any cases of miss-wording his thoughts on Sakurai's part.

 

[Frostwraith]

The situation regarding Robin and Lucina are result of different circumstances.

I said this in the Chrom thread already, but of all characters from Awakening, Robin was chosen since he had a trait Chrom didn't have.

It's about first impressions. At a first glance, Chrom wouldn't seem that different from Marth and Ike. I'm well aware that Chrom could have a unique sword style. But what impression would it leave on the Fire Emblem character selection? Three blue haired swordsmen? A "Magic Knight" kind of character brings something new.

Lucina's development circumstances are entirely different. She wasn't considered like the other characters were. Lucina was a decision made as an afterthought. It would be like: we got Lucina's model with Marth's animations, but instead of a costume, why not give her a few quirks and call it a day? Thus, what meant to be a mere aesthetic change, became a variation of an existing character.

It's illogical to compare Lucina to any of the other newcomers. The other newcomers were planned to have a feeling of freshness and newness to them. You can feel that from any of them, be it from a gameplay point of view, an aesthetic point of view or both.

What seems like a contradiction from Sakurai's part isn't exactly so considering the circumstances and flow of the game's development.

 

[Staarih]

I wonder why he decided to make Lucina into her own character at all? Why not just let her be a Marth alt like planned, and have Robin as the only actual FE-newcomer? Was there really need to beef up the roster with a clone?

 

[ChikoLad]

What seems like a contradiction from Sakurai's part isn't exactly so considering the circumstances and flow of the game's development.

No, because when you tout something as an ideal ("Of course, it would be really easy to make a game by churning out a ton of similar characters, but that's not how I produce games."), and go against it, regardless of the circumstances, you are being hypocritical (unless you explicitly explain that your mind on the concept has changed, which Sakurai does not do).

 

[DraginHikari]

"Probably" does not equal "what actually happened".

It's still a contradictory statement if you take it solely by what we have, and not speculating dev stages.

But you are right on the money when it comes to Sakurai as a PR individual, more or less, which is essentialy what I'm pointing out when I say he is saying contradictory things. Regardless of what I personally think of Lucina or Chrom, I'm just seeing bias on his end, if this article were to be taken as 100% his thoughts without any translation errors on the translator's part, and without any cases of miss-wording his thoughts on Sakurai's part.

I'm pretty sure at this point we're are debating different interpretations of what Sakurai said more so then what's actually going on for the most part. Giving Sakurai's tenacity to speak vague and not talk in depth about the internal development process. I'm not sure I would take the way as 'what actually happened' either. Without being given the context to at what point this decision was made makes me sketchy to use the word 'contradictory' or 'hypocritical' to describe the situation which Sakuari and most other developers won't give. I merely preciving the situation in what I've seen in similar situations in development stories I've seen in the past.

 

[UnownLegend]

Considering that chrom and Lucina fight with the same style, it would make more sense to have him be a Marth clone than an Ike clone

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm curious of the niche between the two.

I mean, if designed right, they will be just a Ryu/Ken relationship. As long as that is balanced right, it shouldn't be a problem that they are both in the game.

Marth will always be about spacing, Lucina doesn't seem to focus on that and will be overall.

If you are skilled at the tipper, you will hit and kill people for and at rediculous percentages. Lucina will just have an overall damage and knock back consistentcy.

There are gonna be some differences, even for move sets though suttle.

I don't like these kinds if clones, but she has an odd development history, so I'm more lenient with this one. I can see why people like clones but I'd prefer wider differences than what Melee did and more like the clones in Brawl.

 

[Makaronileo]

Dat was a good speach.
Sakurai is a clever one.

 

[insomniac19]

Shouldn't we all take this as a confirmation that Sakurai is willing to create alt costumes that are completely separate characters? If so that opens a pretty large floodgate of potential characters making it in through alt costumes.

 

[Jumpman84]

No, because when you tout something as an ideal ("Of course, it would be really easy to make a game by churning out a ton of similar characters, but that's not how I produce games."), and go against it, regardless of the circumstances, you are being hypocritical (unless you explicitly explain that your mind on the concept has changed, which Sakurai does not do).

Your posts make me wish I could punch people through the internet.

How anyone could complain about the fact we're getting a bonus character is beyond me...

 

[Booster]

Source: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=121384840&postcount=8201

I'm really not sure if this has been posted here yet, so don't yell at me if it has.


We've just announced two new characters who will be joining the fray in the upcoming Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U. One is Robin, the avatar from Fire Emblem: Awakening, and the other is Lucina, a swordswoman who plays an important role in the same title. I'll skip over the details.
"What? Not Chrom!?" I suspect a lot of you will ask. Of course, Chrom is quite popular, being the protagonist of FE:A and all. However, I chose Robin and Lucina, and I will elaborate on my reasoning.
Robin appears in the game as a Tactician and functions much like a Mystic Knight (note: FF terminology, but equivalent to magic swordsman). I thought to utilize his all-around nature by assigning swordplay to his Smash attacks and magic tomes to his special attacks--that is, allow him to use magic.
His neutral special is thunder magic that grows stronger the larger you charge it. He uses fire magic for his side special, and wind magic for recovery as his up special. Although Robin doesn't use dark magic in FE:A, I decided to assign it as his down special. It isn't the first time I've given moves to a character that they don't use in their respective game in order to capture certain aspects of the original title.
I also implemented the system used in FE:A, in which tomes break after overuse. Likewise, I included a similar system for the Levin Sword, which breaks after a certain number of uses. However, both the tomes and the Levin Sword will quickly regenerate after a set period of time.
Lucina uses the same techniques as Marth, a fighter with whom I'm sure most of you are already familiar. I even went so far as to make their strength, speed, and special attacks almost identical.
However, what sets Lucina apart is the fact that the strength of her attacks is uniform along the blade. Marth's playstyle emulates the elegant swordplay of a fencer by dealing more damage when he strikes with the tip of his blade, but the damage Lucina deals is evened out. Thus, I think that Lucina will be much easier than Marth for novice players to play with.
I played all the way through FE:A and really wanted to include a character from that rich cast in Smash Bros. Naturally, I considered adding Chrom to the roster, but the decision wasn't easy by any means.
At the end of the day, Chrom would just end up being another plain-old sword-wielder like Marth and Ike. Compared with other characters, he lacks any unique characteristics.
Conversely, when the idea of including Robin came to mind, conceiving the character was so easy that I immediately saw how it would work. From standards to specials, grabs to throws, all aspects of his moveset just fell into place. Not only did he possess characteristics unlike other fighters, but he also captured the essence of the Fire Emblem series. It was perfect!
In the end, if a game isn't fun, then there's no point. Of course, it would be really easy to make a game by churning out a ton of similar characters, but that's not how I produce games.
Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth's alternate costumes.
After all, she has a close relationship with him in FE:A. In such cases, even if two characters' names and voices differ, as long as they function the same way, I assign them as alternate costumes. The Wii Fit Trainers, Villagers, and Robin are examples of this setup.
However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ. When two such similar characters function in an even slightly different manner, I give them a separate spot on the roster since that will affect battle records and whatnot. In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!

So Lucina being a 99% Copy of Marth is confirmed and Robin's modes of attacks break? I'd take 1 Chrom over these two jokers any day, I'm pretty sure they're useful in their game, but really, a FIGHTING GAME CHARACTER who's attacks break after using them and another Marth clone?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

What I see for Lucina:
+ Knockback and damage consistency, leading towards more ease of use. Although slightly in the grand scale of things.
+ More emphasis on being aggressive and approaching, due to knockback/damage consistency.
+ Equalized damage/knockback will lead to more combos against characters with lower % damage than Marth. Further adding to her being more aggressive overall.
+ Equalized knockback also improves her ability of keeping opponents off of her at a closer distance. Potentially better OoS options, though this could be argued.
+ Equalized damage means that her combos will deal more damage overall, speeding up the process of getting the opponent to a percent they can be KO'd. Which also promotes players to be more aggressive with her.
- Equalized knockback would also decrease the amount of combos that can be done against opponents with higher % damage.
- Equalized damage/knockback weakens killing power. Not exponentially so, though she will have to do more damage to secure her kills.
- More damage during combos means that it won't take as long to reach a point where her combos aren't as effective.

What I see for Marth:
+ Centralized around spacing as opposed to being aggressive. Rewards players that land tipper hits with great killing power.
+ More knockback/damage on tipper hits -> Excellent at keeping the opponent away. Marth would be kept out of harm's way, and allow him to continue to poke his opponents to death.
+ More combos against opponents with higher % damage, due to non-tipper hits. These combos ensure that he can eventually land a tipper hit, and seal a kill.
+ Incredibly powerful spike if spaced correctly. Further improves killing potential.
+ Tipper hits allow for more pressure against opponents who are shielding.
- Harder to use overall due to being centralized on landing tipper hits. Although slightly in the grand scale of things.
- Less knockback/damage on non-tippered hits means that he has a harder time juggling opponents with lower % damage.
- Missing with tipper hits can lead to missed kills.


Overall I see Lucina as being easier to use than Marth, though that does not mean that she will be "training wheels" for Marth. Because the two characters would focus on rather different fighting styles, despite having the same moves/stats.

 

[Turokman5896]

What I see for Lucina:
+ Knockback and damage consistency, leading towards more ease of use. Although slightly in the grand scale of things.
+ More emphasis on being aggressive and approaching, due to knockback/damage consistency.
+ Equalized damage/knockback will lead to more combos against characters with lower % damage than Marth. Further adding to her being more aggressive overall.
+ Equalized knockback also improves her ability of keeping opponents off of her at a closer distance. Potentially better OoS options, though this could be argued.
+ Equalized damage means that her combos will deal more damage overall, speeding up the process of getting the opponent to a percent they can be KO'd. Which also promotes players to be more aggressive with her.
- Equalized knockback would also decrease the amount of combos that can be done against opponents with higher % damage.
- Equalized damage/knockback weakens killing power. Not exponentially so, though she will have to do more damage to secure her kills.
- More damage during combos means that it won't take as long to reach a point where her combos aren't as effective.

What I see for Marth:
+ Centralized around spacing as opposed to being aggressive. Rewards players that land tipper hits with great killing power.
+ More knockback/damage on tipper hits -> Excellent at keeping the opponent away. Marth would be kept out of harm's way, and allow him to continue to poke his opponents to death.
+ More combos against opponents with higher % damage, due to non-tipper hits. These combos ensure that he can eventually land a tipper hit, and seal a kill.
+ Incredibly powerful spike if spaced correctly. Further improves killing potential.
+ Tipper hits allow for more pressure against opponents who are shielding.
- Harder to use overall due to being centralized on landing tipper hits. Although slightly in the grand scale of things.
- Less knockback/damage on non-tippered hits means that he has a harder time juggling opponents with lower % damage.
- Missing with tipper hits can lead to missed kills.


Overall I see Lucina as being easier to use than Marth, though that does not mean that she will be "training wheels" for Marth. Because the two characters would focus on rather different fighting styles, despite having the same moves/stats.

How does equalized knock back lead to more lower percent combos? (Legit question, no sarcasm.) shouldn't Marth's potential for low knock back mean he can rack up more combos?