Traditional Fighting Games and Smash - Where do we belong?

[Kal]

I'm actually surprised no one has posted this yet.

 

[Svetsunov]

In my experience, most of the FGC is full of people who basically only play who the top streamers/players are playing. Sure there are "sheep" like this in most communities(COUGH LEAGUE OF LEGENDS COUGH COUGH) but they're everywhere in the FGC. Melee has these too for sure, but they arent EVERYWHERE like they seem to be in the FGC. And at the top level its not always seeing the same characters over and over again, which is the situation with most fighting games. Gimpyfish? Taj? Shroomed? The people who play the less popular characters on a level beyond what we've seen are the ones who impress me and i think that the smash community has more of these than anywhere else.

I think the higher level players of both communities would be cool with each other, but its the sheep/fanboys who would probably just squabble with the "enemy" fanboys while the top players of both communities roll their eyes.

Competitive Melee players will get a lot of rap from the FGC simply because they have the impression a Nintendo game can't be played competitively (Thank you Nintendo Wii).

 

[UltiMario]

In my experience, most of the FGC is full of people who basically only play who the top streamers/players are playing. Sure there are "sheep" like this in most communities(COUGH LEAGUE OF LEGENDS COUGH COUGH) but they're everywhere in the FGC. Melee has these too for sure, but they arent EVERYWHERE like they seem to be in the FGC. And at the top level its not always seeing the same characters over and over again, which is the situation with most fighting games. Gimpyfish? Taj? Shroomed? The people who play the less popular characters on a level beyond what we've seen are the ones who impress me and i think that the smash community has more of these than anywhere else.

Completely ignorant statement from someone who isn't deep in the Fighting game community. Most people play to win. (Like Smash) a lot of fighting games have 5-10 characters way above everyone else. Stakes are higher in Fighting games, more money to be made. As such, more people play tops. It's more than Smash, but not by a lot. There's still a lot of low tier (sometimes "rising" characters- some players show that "low/mid" tier characters actually are good) players in the FGC. Japanese play more low tier than everyone else does, though.

I think the higher level players of both communities would be cool with each other, but its the sheep/fanboys who would probably just squabble with the "enemy" fanboys while the top players of both communities roll their eyes.

This is right though.

Ha. Could this post be more ironic?

That's your opinion. Those who love traditional fighting games would say the same about Melee. Ne?

See, people stone-set in their belief that Brawl is objectively bad are only reinforcing my point. The fighting game community is as convinced that Smash is bad as you are that Brawl is bad. Have you guys ever considered that perhaps Brawl players see the Melee community the same way we see the FG community? We only want acceptance... and then we turn around and hate on Brawl. I'm sure they think the same thing we think about the way the FG community acts: "We're not asking them to play the game. All we want is acceptance. Why are they so hateful?"

The irony of posts like yours and UltiMario's being here is so rich it hurts, considering the thread's topic.

Spoiler

And no, I don't like/play Brawl myself.

There's sort of a point here but it's sort of also bad.

So here's a comparison on Brawl hate vs FGC hate

Lots of Meleers don't like Brawl because Brawl took such a radically different direction, which included slower paced gameplay, tripping, extremes of things either being extremely good/safe or hilariously bad/punishable, poor balance even for a smash game, and lack of WDing/L-Cancels/other techs, and "nerfing" mechanics to be WORSE than it's predecessor.

vs

FGC fights over about equally quality games because they don't play them. Imagine Brawl vs Melee wars on 10 times the scale, but instead of being Brawl vs Melee, it's Melee 1.0 vs Melee 1.1 vs Melee 1.2 vs PAL Melee. Stream monsters (aka most of the FGC) fight and are ****s to other people for no discernible reason except to troll and hate people that play games that aren't theirs, regardless of they're actually like good games or not. That is FGC fighting between themselves over their own fighting games lol.

Stream monsters are ****s that fight over the stupidest things and make fun of us for trying to be part of them (did you see the Apex Stream chat? lol).

 

[Wizzrobe]

Who cares about the FGC, and what would it really benefit us getting closer to them anyway.

If FGC community was friends with the Melee community than Melee could be in the Huge fighting game tournaments like EVO and MLG. The community would grow more and it would just be a big help for the community in general.

 

[ZaXXoR]

It's a damn dirty shame, but comon, CoD is taking over FPS, when Halo is clearly the most technical and team-based games, it's always out with the old in with the new

P.S Not every game can be like StarCraft ,in the fact that it's still huge, the original too

 

[The Star King]

There's sort of a point here but it's sort of also bad.

So here's a comparison on Brawl hate vs FGC hate

Lots of Meleers don't like Brawl because Brawl took such a radically different direction, which included slower paced gameplay, tripping, extremes of things either being extremely good/safe or hilariously bad/punishable, poor balance even for a smash game, and lack of WDing/L-Cancels/other techs, and "nerfing" mechanics to be WORSE than it's predecessor.

vs

FGC fights over about equally quality games because they don't play them. Imagine Brawl vs Melee wars on 10 times the scale, but instead of being Brawl vs Melee, it's Melee 1.0 vs Melee 1.1 vs Melee 1.2 vs PAL Melee. Stream monsters (aka most of the FGC) fight and are ****s to other people for no discernible reason except to troll and hate people that play games that aren't theirs, regardless of they're actually like good games or not. That is FGC fighting between themselves over their own fighting games lol.

Stream monsters are ****s that fight over the stupidest things and make fun of us for trying to be part of them (did you see the Apex Stream chat? lol).

You say that Melee fans "don't like Brawl because Brawl took such a radically different direction" - which falls in line with what I've been saying - but ignore the possibility that FGC don't like Smash because that took a radically different direction (from traditional fighting games). Telling me to imagine Melee 1.0 vs Melee 1.1 or whatever doesn't make sense, because Melee is not similar to traditional fighting games at all, so it's not a dispute over something as trivial as different versions of Melee.

 

[Svetsunov]

Completely ignorant statement from someone who isn't deep in the Fighting game community. Most people play to win. (Like Smash) a lot of fighting games have 5-10 characters way above everyone else. Stakes are higher in Fighting games, more money to be made. As such, more people play tops. It's more than Smash, but not by a lot. There's still a lot of low tier (sometimes "rising" characters- some players show that "low/mid" tier characters actually are good) players in the FGC. Japanese play more low tier than everyone else does, though.

Admittedly most of my experience comes from Guilty Gear, so i'm not sure how much different that is from something like Street Fighter(Community Wise I Mean).

I never thought of prize pool as a factor though, so i guess that makes sense.

 

[I R MarF]

You say that Melee fans "don't like Brawl because Brawl took such a radically different direction" - which falls in line with what I've been saying - but ignore the possibility that FGC don't like Smash because that took a radically different direction (from traditional fighting games). Telling me to imagine Melee 1.0 vs Melee 1.1 or whatever doesn't make sense, because Melee is not similar to traditional fighting games at all, so it's not a dispute over something as trivial as different versions of Melee.

He is talking about hate within the respective communities. In other words, he is comparing brawl vs melee hate with street fighter vs. MvC hate. And he was using all the 1.1 and 1.2 shiz as a metaphor to represent the fact that the FGC quarrel over much smaller differences than Melee/Brawl. His argument alludes to the idea that since the FGC get their panties in a bunch already over really small differences, it should be no question they would view Smash as an abomination.

However, the one thing that he failed to mention is FGC is complaints between different game series, whereas smash is within its own series, so of course the hate would be greater in FGC.

In regards to the general idea here, I think it would be great if Smash was a respected member of the FGC or an eSport or whatever. Aside from general ignorance ourside the smash community keeping us out, we are poorly representing ourselves as immature and irresponsible.... and another important idea to consider is the fact we recieve no support from Nintendo.

If ssb4 was a REAL sequel to melee and had the intent of catering to both competitive and casual aspects, I think the smash scene would have had an easier time fitting in since its aspect as a competitive game would be advertised. I think the FGC thinks we are making smash something it isn't. And that conclusion is completely reasonable because its competitiveness was a discovery; not an intentional aspect of its design.

 

[KrIsP!]

Anyone mind telling me what happened on teh apex stream? I've heard a bit but I missed it when it happened.

 

[I R MarF]

Well from what I saw, the traditional fighting game casters made fun of smash and laughed at the fact Brawl is all footsies and doesn't have combos. (which they failed to clarify is a flaw of Brawl, not Melee) and the commentators on the stream were just a-holes and posted shiz like "where is MvC?" followed by a hater comment on the current game streaming.

 

[Wizzrobe]

It's a damn dirty shame, but comon, CoD is taking over FPS, when Halo is clearly the most technical and team-based games, it's always out with the old in with the new

P.S Not every game can be like StarCraft ,in the fact that it's still huge, the original too

I think COD is stupid and extremely overrated.

 

[UltiMario]

However, the one thing that he failed to mention is FGC is complaints between different game series, whereas smash is within its own series, so of course the hate would be greater in FGC.

Well not entirely true.

There are people that like MvC2 way more than MvC3 like Melee to Brawl

Whatever old SF over SSFIVAE as well

Soul Calibur II over newer ones

And then of course the games not in the same series but by the same makers

And certainly SF and Tekken players that hate SF X Tekken lol (SFxT is like the most hated Fighter ever for some reason like EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER DESPISES THE GAME in the FGC lol)

Street Fighter and Marvel people don't always agree either

Rest of your post is right though

Also the people in the CHAT in Apex were god awful ugh. Those people are the stream monsters. They kill everything and make the stream chat nothing but one, big, multi-day argument.

 

[ZaXXoR]

I think COD is stupid and extremely overrated.

Yuppers, if we wanted realism we'd go to iraq

 

[KrIsP!]

Well from what I saw, the traditional fighting game casters made fun of smash and laughed at the fact Brawl is all footsies and doesn't have combos. (which they failed to clarify is a flaw of Brawl, not Melee) and the commentators on the stream were just a-holes and posted shiz like "where is MvC?" followed by a hater comment on the current game streaming.

The people commentating said this? Likethe people talking over the matches? Wtf, did this get into YouTube videos?

 

[Jeyfar]

I think that Smash must not be considered a fighting game. It is a party game with action elements involved, therefore making it

competitive (64, and Melee. I don't think Brawl has enough depth to be considered so, but I really don't care, I play Brawl for the lulz

because my main simply sucked and none of the other characters that I liked were particularily good. Read: Cpt. Falcon, Bowser,

Luigi.) I'm not gonna board the Brawl hate train because, even if it is a mess in a competitive level, it can be modded . The FGC

are elitist btw, and we are too, that's because bad blood always stirs. However, I just simply cannot accept the FGC now. Before

when they played MvC2, SF2, Soul Calibur 2 and VF 5 I loved the FGC, but recent scrub releases like SFxT, SSFIVAEV2012 (yep),

UMvC 3, and Tekken 6 simply are not up to yesteryears standards and I lost both hope and respect for fighting games. Please note

that I've played all of the above mentioned games AND am pretty decent at them, so I'm not being biased. (Also I have more fun
playing Tatsunoko vs Capcom than UMvC 3, what is the world coming to?)

The first person genre is dying too, starting by the Cowadoody series. I remember playing COD 4 on to tournament and clan battle level and having loads of fun twitchy madness. MW2 released and my whole clan was like ">_> **** this ****" and went back to COD4. Since then COD became an overrated piece of crap that doesn't deserve a 5$ price tag but people beg to keep playing that **** (I play on PC btw). Tribes Ascend, at least, keeps my hopes up that the FPS genre keeps on foot.

On RTS we have SC Brood War and SCII. Honestly there isn't much to say about these, just that the second will never be as good as the first (because Zerg will never be balanced -_- and Protoss will always be the punching bags).

In the end, gaming as a whole today is driving to a crash, also the fact that games are scrubbing up too much is making me worry for tournament and competitive reasons.

As for the FGC and Smash community hate goes, I hate to say it but unfortunately it was Brawl that which made Smash have a bad look competitively. Melee was hyperactive and fun filled to see, even commentators were always praising the ability needed to play the game well. Brawl however, drove that image to the ground, as much as i don't like to say it.

EDIT: holy post Moses

 

[PEEF!]

Oh god, "Smash isn't a fighting game because it is a party game with action elements."

Let's get something straight. "Party game" is not a description of what the game actually involves. That is just a description of the situation where it is (commonly) played. Beer Pong is a "party Game with action elements."

Maybe this is overly simple, but what do you do in competitive smash? Do you fight? Seems simple enough...

 

[KrIsP!]

Valve hasn't dissappointed me yet in the FPS genre. But they get a lot of hate just for being themselves.

 

[Jeyfar]

Oh god, "Smash isn't a fighting game because it is a party game with action elements."

Let's get something straight. "Party game" is not a description of what the game actually involves. That is just a description of the situation where it is (commonly) played. Beer Pong is a "party Game with action elements."

Maybe this is overly simple, but what do you do in competitive smash? Do you fight? Seems simple enough...

Yes I fight, yes I have gone to tournaments, and yes I have a more than decent Ganondorf. Does that change the fact that Smash is game made as a Party game? No.

 

[PEEF!]

Yes I fight, yes I have gone to tournaments, and yes I have a more than decent Ganondorf. Does that change the fact that Smash is game made as a Party game? No.

Being a party game does not make it not a fighting game, that was the point of my post. The term "party game" actually doesn't mean anything at all. You admitted that you fight when you play smash. Ergo, fighting game. Tagging "party game" on that doesn't change the fact that it is a fighting game.

 

[Svetsunov]

Party game implies a game that you just play to have fun with friends casually, at least by todays definition.

It's not a "genre" but more of a classification of a game.

Smash can be a party game but obviously around here it usually isn't.

 

[Jeyfar]

Being a party game does not make it not a fighting game, that was the point of my post. The term "party game" actually doesn't mean anything at all. You admitted that you fight when you play smash. Ergo, fighting game. Tagging "party game" on that doesn't change the fact that it is a fighting game.

Although you are certainly right, the point of it being a party game is that it was made for a being a festive game, rather than anything else. You have to fight of course, I am not negating the merit of you having to fight to win, however it was not made with those intentions in mind. Do take in mind that this is just my opinion and not something widespread, also I think that you took the worst part of the wall of text I wrote to argue lol. Also your statement is correct, I was merely pointing out something.

 

[Shawn101589]

While I agree with you that Smash is a fighting game Peef, I don't think it's that simple. Assume for a second that some crazy **** was discovered in Halo that made melee combat really complex, so they decided to disable weapons and make it a fighting game. Would you consider that a fighting game? I think you are oversimplifying it.

 

[CloneHat]

melee is just melee
same as it ever was

Melee, in my opinion, is radically different because it is based on movement. Even the combos are reliant on how well a character can navigate the stage. It's more of an open system with fewer rules.

An interesting thing to note is how more progressive fighting games are actually adding features of Smash, like SFxT's juggling anywhere and running in GG. Smash in some ways is the direction that traditional fighters are moving in, but it came so early and suddenly it's hard to see them connected at all.

 

[PEEF!]

While I agree with you that Smash is a fighting game Peef, I don't think it's that simple. Assume for a second that some crazy **** was discovered in Halo that made melee combat really complex, so they decided to disable weapons and make it a fighting game. Would you consider that a fighting game? I think you are oversimplifying it.

It would effectively be a fighting game. If you have complex melee combat, then why not? It was born as a shooter but became playable as a fighting game. Same with Brawl and Project M. Started as some sort of hotair baloon floataround somethinorother and was modded to be a fighting game =]

CloneHat, Melee has less rules than Traditional fighting games? 0_0

 

[KrIsP!]

I think he means less movement restriction not an actual ruleset with fewer rules

 

[PEEF!]

I think he means less movement restriction not an actual ruleset with fewer rules

Yeah well if that's the case I don't see how that could possibly have any bearing on whether or not the game is a fighting game. There is more space to move but it isn't skyrim haha.

 

[ZaXXoR]

Yeah well if that's the case I don't see how that could possibly have any bearing on whether or not the game is a fighting game. There is more space to move but it isn't skyrim haha.

I don't consider it a fighting game solely because you have to Ring-Out EVERY KILL. That's the only thing I can see why melee wouldn't fit

 

[Strong Badam]

No one important cares whether Melee is a "fighting game," we all just know it's sick as **** and one of the best competitive games ever made.

 

[ajp_anton]

I don't consider it a fighting game solely because you have to Ring-Out EVERY KILL. That's the only thing I can see why melee wouldn't fit

Who says this isn't what a fighting game should be like, and Smash is actually the only real fighting game?

 

[ZaXXoR]

Who says this isn't what a fighting game should be like, and Smash is actually the only real fighting game?

If only..... I suck *** at fighting games, hard to remember the combos, melee is much more suited to me, Brawl just makes me wanna go, buy brawl and take a **** on it

 

[Cactuar]

This is purely opinion, but this is part of why I feel our community doesn't get along with the FGC.

Melee vs Traditional Fighting Games

Melee is closer to actually being a FIGHTING game than the vast majority of "Fighting Games".

TFG: The life bar system that traditional fighters use is ********. People do not work on life bars. There is absolutely no change in how your character reacts to hits from 100% life to 0% life. If you are at 1%, you will die from getting jabbed. Or from taking chip damage.

Melee: TFG players tend to say things about our required "ring out". What it looks like has nothing to do with what it accomplishes. We soften up the opponents and then kill them by landing a strong blow. We are required to look for or create significant openings to land moves that have kill potential. If we are unable to do that, we have to tack on many more smaller hits until the smaller hits themselves do significant knockback.

Melee simulates actual combat far better in this aspect.

TFG: The vast majority of combos are AUTOCOMBOS. After the first hit, you can just close your eyes and tap buttons. The defender can't do anything once they are in a combo unless the game specifically has a "breakout" mechanism.

Melee: As the attacker, on every hit, including the first, you have to keep in mind what direction your move sends the opponent naturally, and then react to the opponent's defensive action of DIing your hits. When watching the opponent, you have to consider the environment, the opponent's current %, and the opponent's tendencies to be able to reliably predict what their DI will be, and even then, you can't be sure. If you react in time, you will be able to followup the attack with another move. If you don't, you drop the combo. There are autocombos in Melee, but they are few and far between compared to any TFG.

Melee simulates actual combat far better in this aspect.

TFG: The movement systems in traditional fighters are generally abysmally slow or extremely linear. They vastly restrict the player's ability to express themselves and they keep the player locked to playing the opponent. 2D fighters are actually worse offenders in this aspect because the stage is a big rectangle. The only way to circle your opponent is by jumping over them or if your character has a teleport move or something. If you get pushed to an end of the stage, you get trapped in a corner.

Melee: The movement system is highly reactive to the player. We have an unparalleled amount of control over our characters. And we have platforms. Platforms recreate a 3d space in a 2d field. Providing that you know how to use them, it allows you to circle the opponent. The opponent can also implement countermeasures against circling. FD is the worst stage in melee because it lacks options. It is also the stage that has the most in common with TFGs.

Melee simulates actual combat far better in this aspect.


IF you wanted to compare Melee and SF in terms of actual combat...

Melee is boxing. Street Fighter is checkers.

I could go on and on about this, so if anyone level-headed from a TFG community would like to discuss, not bicker, their game vs Melee from a fighting perspective, I'd be down.

 

[Kal]

It's true, in real life you don't memorize combos. You have a list of moves and you throw them at each other, and sometimes they combo, but sometimes you get kicked in the face.

 

[Beat!]

What a good post.

 

[Cactuar]

It's true, in real life you don't memorize combos. You have a list of moves and you throw them at each other, and sometimes they combo, but sometimes you get kicked in the face.

Dude got gimped so hard. That spin kick was M2K status.

 

[PEEF!]

Cactuar that was a great post, I hadn't thought about it like that! Thanks.

 

[KrIsP!]

You hadn't that about capoeira in terms of M2K? lol

 

[ZaXXoR]

Melee is boss

 

[KevinM]

Gonzo I don't see how you can state something like Smash not having Yomi >_>.

 

[xFats]

this is the worst thread.

 

[Shawn101589]

This topic is not about whether Smash is a fighting game or not. Nobody here is arguing about Smash having depth, obviously the community would be dead by now if the game was stale but it continues to expand and grow. It's about whether or not we want to become part of the FGC. It seems that the consensus of that is that no we don't, which is disappointing but understandable. I just think of the missed opportunities and wish we could stop arguing moot points.

If you are right and Smash is superior to fighters, great. If you are wrong, great. Either way, the point is that we don't have a place in the FGC. And "proving" to them that our game is deeper then theirs is not only irrelevant but impossible. Because the more general and nonspecific an argument is, the more obvious it is that there is a lack of fundamental understanding of the opposing game and it really renders the argument useless and doesn't accomplish anything.

And I'm not sure how I missed it but...

We're not the problem. Go make a post on SRK defending melee and see how long it takes for it to turn into an insult ****-storm.

Doing that sort of thing is exactly the problem.