Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Darklink401]

Regarding Wario: Villager can pocket and refresh bike when he needs to, so that takes away Wario's best recovery option, since without it he only has the situational waft and his sad up B.

So just take away his bike, gimp him, and you're done.

I'd say the matchup, simply because of pocket, is around 65-35 or 70-30


ALSO

People having problems with (cuz I know I used to, until I just had a match just now)

Villager's jabs DESTROY Sonic. (if you do the rapid jabs by pressing a rapidly)

They stop his dash attacks, his dash grabs, AND his spin attack. It's ridiculous.

I honestly felt sorry for the Sonic I just faced, he seemed good, he just couldn't approach at all x-x

Especially when you summon lloid, and they go in, then you jab jab jab, they also get hit by the lloid.

 

[Darklink401]

Side B is also really good, because it'll stop Villager's short hops pretty easily. Also, trying to outaerial Villager is always a possibility. Just jump as he does, and do a fair or nair. Just be careful, because if you jump at his exact same height, he WILL slingshot you XP

Also you can just run towards the tree, then roll behind it and punish as he axes.

 

[Antonykun]

Regarding Wario: Villager can pocket and refresh bike when he needs to, so that takes away Wario's best recovery option, since without it he only has the situational waft and his sad up B.

So just take away his bike, gimp him, and you're done.

I'd say the matchup, simply because of pocket, is around 65-35 or 70-30


ALSO

People having problems with (cuz I know I used to, until I just had a match just now)

Villager's jabs DESTROY Sonic. (if you do the rapid jabs by pressing a rapidly)

They stop his dash attacks, his dash grabs, AND his spin attack. It's ridiculous.

I honestly felt sorry for the Sonic I just faced, he seemed good, he just couldn't approach at all x-x

Especially when you summon lloid, and they go in, then you jab jab jab, they also get hit by the lloid.

Homing Attack

 

[Darklink401]

Homing Attack

But you can see homing attack coming. (come on, its got like at least a second of start-up time) Just shield. =P

For everything else Sonic does, there is jabs.

 

[Antonykun]

But you can see homing attack coming. (come on, its got like at least a second of start-up time) Just shield. =P

For everything else Sonic does, there is jabs.

Sorry i was in break for class so i couldn't give a better argument at the time. Now I'm in a longer break so I can make a better argument:
-Against jabs sonic can jump behind you and do whatever he wants.
-Sonic can punish Lloyd start-up from like half of FD.

Welp there went that strat.

In all seriousness though matchups are not often defined by one move:
-Villager isn't instakilled by reflectors
-Wario isn't instakilled by pocketing his bike, (I have yet to see anyone do that to a Wario who isn't mindlessly using bike.) neither is Diddy/ROB/Jr. because you can take away one of their projectiles

Matchups are way more deep and complex than "one move beats all"
for example Wario vs Villager


-Wario can get in easily
-F-air beats slingshot our main way of keep away
-Chomp makes shielding his air attacks risky.
-He can take stocks way earlier than use without even using Waft.


-Villager can rack up damage on Wario quickly.
-Wario cannot reasonably f-air all of our slingshots.
-Lloyd can temporarily disrupt Wario's ground or air movement.
-Villager can pocket Wario's bike in theory
-Wario cannot go deep against us due to Villager's air attacks, superb recovery, and the theoretical pocketed bike.

These are just the tip of the iceberg on just one of the 50 MUs Villager can have in Smash 4

 

[Darklink401]

Sorry i was in break for class so i couldn't give a better argument at the time. Now I'm in a longer break so I can make a better argument.
Against jabs sonic can jump behind you and do whatever he wants.
Sonic can punish Lloyd start-up from like half of FD.
Welp there went that strat.

In all seriousness though matchups are not often defined by one move:
Villager isn't instakilled by reflectors
Wario isn't instakilled by pocketing his bike, (I have yet to see anyone do that to a Wario who isn't mindlessly using bike.) neither is Diddy/ROB/Jr. because you can take away one of their projectiles

Matchups are way more deep and complex than "one move beats all"
for example Wario vs Villager

Wario can get in easily
F-air beats slingshot our main way of keep away
Chomp makes shielding his air attacks risky.
He can take stocks way earlier than use without even using Waft.

Villager can rack up damage on Wario quickly.
Wario cannot reasonably f-air all of our slingshots.
Lloyd can temporarily disrupt Wario's ground or air movement.
Villager can pocket Wario's bike in theory
Wario cannot go deep against us due to Villager's air attacks, superb recovery, and the theoretical pocketed bike.

These are just the tip of the iceberg on just one of the 50 MUs Villager can have in Smash 4

Okay so I was exaggerating a bit when I said destroys (though that Sonic didn't seem to be able to adapt)

But the fact that you just have to stand there and jab if Sonic starts charging up spin attack, makes the match-up much more manageable, perhaps even favorable for us.

And sure, Sonic can jump behind us, but we could just stop jabbing meanwhile, and have time to dodge/shield.

Now I've only tried this once, like half an hour ago, but it does seem like Sonic can't do AS much to Villager if Villager has his gloves up.

And yeah, half of FD. But the players are on opposite sides when the match starts, and while Lloid DOES take a while to start, jabs have isntant hitboxes, so a rushing Sonic will just find himself being poked by unpleasant tiny fists.


As for Wario, pocketing the bike isn't an instakill (and it's easy as well, since he HAS to let it go to get that extra jump)

You still have to play well, to get him off the stage, but once he IS there, his options are SEVERELY more limited.

Wario WITH his bike can recover from places Wario WITHOUT his bike couldn't even DREAM of XP

 

[AnchorTea]

People having problems with (cuz I know I used to, until I just had a match just now)

Villager's jabs DESTROY Sonic. (if you do the rapid jabs by pressing a rapidly)

They stop his dash attacks, his dash grabs, AND his spin attack. It's ridiculous.

I honestly felt sorry for the Sonic I just faced, he seemed good, he just couldn't approach at all x-x

Especially when you summon lloid, and they go in, then you jab jab jab, they also get hit by the lloid.

Thanks for the tip!

You deserve a donut!

Also, Villager's nair can cancel Sonic's spin attacks.

 

[SoniCraft]

Quick word on the Bowser MU:

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO AT THE LEDGE?

Literally any option I choose is stuffed out by Up b ;-;. Ledge get up, ledge attack, ledge jump, etc.

 

[Darklink401]

Quick word on the Bowser MU:

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO AT THE LEDGE?

Literally any option I choose is stuffed out by Up b ;-;. Ledge get up, ledge attack, ledge jump, etc.

As in, when you're hanging by the ledge? Drop, and either jump or walljump, then force him to respect your space with lloid and slingshots, until he backs off ;3

 

[Antonykun]

Anyone wanna critique my Villager? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNvFmq2jlV0

So like @Mr.Pikachu won Granfinals against a Bowser maybe this'll help?

 

[RAzul]

Sonic
Mario
Sheik
Anyone fast
Villager

Damn bro...you ain't kidding. Don't forget Yoshi. It's winnable but Yoshi is deceivingly mobile in this iteration. I hate a good Yoshi and despise Sheik as a whole. I feel she's too much. That MU is a nightmare.

 

[Darklink401]

Damn bro...you ain't kidding. Don't forget Yoshi. It's winnable but Yoshi is deceivingly mobile in this iteration. I hate a good Yoshi and despise Sheik as a whole. I feel she's too much. That MU is a nightmare.

Sheik is ridiculous. And I play her. So I know what I'm talkin about.

Villager has such a hard time against a good Sheik. he can't even pocket the needles.


Also good Yoshis can wreck so much, because of all the priority and power his moves have.

 

[RAzul]

Personally, I find this match-up to be near as bad as Sonic. Something that I found to be very helpful though is that Lloid can tank needles very well. Tree also applies here. Problem is that Sheik is so darn fast that it's hard to keep her away from you. I don't think a pocketed grenade explodes either, which would've been nice but ehhh.

Na. Unfortunately a pocketed grenade only hits like a rock and there is no explosion. It's still minorly useful for tic tac damage and a surprise since it's impossible to pocket that lame's needles.

 

[RAzul]

Sheik is ridiculous. And I play her. So I know what I'm talkin about.

Villager has such a hard time against a good Sheik. he can't even pocket the needles.


Also good Yoshis can wreck so much, because of all the priority and power his moves have.

For the truth you speak couldn't be more canon than the way in which you've presented it good sir.

 

[Darklink401]

Na. Unfortunately a pocketed grenade only hits like a rock and there is no explosion. It's still minorly useful for tic tac damage and a surprise since it's impossible to pocket that lame's needles.

You can also JC slide toss it to combo with ftilt for a good 15 damage or so.


Also thank you.
XP

 

[Mtn64]

Honestly I don't think we lose to Mario: Gimp game is good for us here. Should be abusing that on the plumber.
Respect his FAir off stage. Lloid can hit him if the fair hits you and the lloid, and you won't get spiked
NAir OoS punishes, respect dthrow combos.
It all depends on how you safe.

Also to the reflector subject:
Reaction pockets, Rising SH Momentum forward dair.
Both are good punishes.

EDIT:

Homing Attack

IF you're being beat by homing attack, there's a problem considering we can run back SH Dair/Bair, or OoS Nair / Fair dependent on trajectory
He's not saying only use A, he's saying be practical with it as its your best tool in the MU

Considering your claim that sonic can beat us if he jumps behind us, that's assuming he can react to a 3 frame jab.
And the end time isn't too long. Block or stepdodge (Roll is a decent option in theory for this but won't get you the punish)

 

[CHOVI]

Sheik is ridiculous. And I play her. So I know what I'm talkin about.

Villager has such a hard time against a good Sheik. he can't even pocket the needles.


Also good Yoshis can wreck so much, because of all the priority and power his moves have.

Well yeah, but Lloid absorbs needles so it isn't that bad

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who would you guys say Villager loses too? I played as Sheik in my local the other day vs an old friend and he went Villager. Lloid plus fair made it hard to get in and his aerials were able to disrupt my momentum. I figure I will counter pick, but
Sheik counters him I just need to learn the match better I suppose.

 

[Darklink401]

Who would you guys say Villager loses too? I played as Sheik in my local the other day vs an old friend and he went Villager. Lloid plus fair made it hard to get in and his aerials were able to disrupt my momentum. I figure I will counter pick, but
Sheik counters him I just need to learn the match better I suppose.

Sheik is very good against Villager because he can't pocket needles. Also Sheik's aerials are just as fast as Villager's, so there's that.

Another good one is Sonic, I guess. I always have trouble with him.

 

[AnchorTea]

I'm just going to say that Villager's nair can autocancel Sonic's homing attack.

And his side b.

And pretty much everything else.

 

[AnchorTea]

I think you should ask this in the Falcon board before you get a warning.

 

[CodyOdyO]

I'm just going to say that Villager's nair can autocancel Sonic's homing attack.

And his side b.

And pretty much everything else.

Villager beats Sonic in the air all day as well, turnips out prioritize his approaches, so with proper spacing you can make it really difficult for Sonic to get in.

 

[Darklink401]

The only issue is that Villager's got no diagonal option, so sonic can approach us diagonally and it's kinda like our weak point.

 

[Darklink401]

I think you should ask this in the Falcon board before you get a warning.

Not necessarily. I mean, keep in mind that Villagers would have the best way of telling a Falcon main how they can beat Villager.

It's common practice to do that, no?

 

[AnchorTea]

The only issue is that Villager's got no diagonal option, so sonic can approach us diagonally and it's kinda like our weak point.

Our nair exist for a good reason. It certainly helps that Villager's nair is more of a defensive move.

 

[RAzul]

The only issue is that Villager's got no diagonal option, so sonic can approach us diagonally and it's kinda like our weak point.

That's where impeccable spacing comes into play, though I do get what you mean.

 

[RAzul]

Yerp! Who got that download on the MU against a superb doe? I NEED that in my life. Lmk plzz.

#KingadaVill

 

[Darklink401]

Our nair exist for a good reason. It certainly helps that Villager's nair is more of a defensive move.

I forget, does nair beat out homing attack?

 

[AnchorTea]

I forget, does nair beat out homing attack?

Yes.

 

[Darklink401]

Yes.

Amazing.

 

[AnchorTea]

Amazing.

And so are donuts.

 

[Player-1]

i got 5th out of about 250 people at paragon with mostly diddy, but busted out villager vs manny's sonic when we played and brought it to game 5 after losing game 1 with diddy so I'll have some vids of the MU up sometime. I think it's pretty even until you he gets the stock lead, it's just really difficult to kill sonic. Villager's kill moves take precision to land and it's really hard to pin him down. I'm thinking somewhere between 55:45 and 60:40 in sonic's favor.

 

[Antonykun]

i got 5th out of about 250 people at paragon with mostly diddy, but busted out villager vs manny's sonic when we played and brought it to game 5 after losing game 1 with diddy so I'll have some vids of the MU up sometime. I think it's pretty even until you he gets the stock lead, it's just really difficult to kill sonic. Villager's kill moves take precision to land and it's really hard to pin him down. I'm thinking somewhere between 55:45 and 60:40 in sonic's favor.

It's kinda hard to believe that you got away with CP Villager on a Sanic. This meta I tell ya.

 

[Darklink401]

i got 5th out of about 250 people at paragon with mostly diddy, but busted out villager vs manny's sonic when we played and brought it to game 5 after losing game 1 with diddy so I'll have some vids of the MU up sometime. I think it's pretty even until you he gets the stock lead, it's just really difficult to kill sonic. Villager's kill moves take precision to land and it's really hard to pin him down. I'm thinking somewhere between 55:45 and 60:40 in sonic's favor.

Swhy we got dsmash

To end that lil blue thing.

 

[Player-1]

I don't think dsmash is very safe

 

[Darklink401]

I don't think dsmash is very safe

But if you read a roll it's perfect. Or if you do it right after you summon lloid, and they run right into it.

 

[Player-1]

Sure if they roll into you, but IDK why sonic isn't just always running away and then charging spin dash

 

[Darklink401]

Sure if they roll into you, but IDK why sonic isn't just always running away and then charging spin dash

If you cut away Sonic's spin dash by jabbing, he's gonna have to approach, and he will likely try to get behind you to do some damage.

At least from what I've been told. =D

 

[Player-1]

ya, but not by rolling into you

 

[Darklink401]

ya, but not by rolling into you

I've had a lot of Sonics roll behind me o.o