Tournaments + Wireless Problems = ???

[TheBuzzSaw]

Perhaps a tournament host has already addressed this regarding Wavebirds (I certainly have not), but I feel it will become a much more important topic of discussion as Brawl enters the tournament scene.

Here is the issue at hand. Before, the only worry was the occasional Wavebird. I rarely saw one at tournaments, and even if I did, the owner had fresh batteries and never came close to fully draining the batteries. Once Brawl reaches critical mass, I have a strong feeling we are going to be forced to deal with a plethora of battery-related issues.

What happens when a player's batteries die mid-match? If Brawl is anything like other Wii games, it will pause the game when it senses a lost signal. If it does not, players will fall to their doom, and a ruling must be made. Shall we punish those who fail to bring fresh batteries to a tournament?

What happens when a player's Wii remote fails to sync with a new Wii? This will definitely be a new (and rather time-wasting) scenario. If others are any bit like me, their remotes will have a hard time connecting to a new Wii every other match. Sometimes, the only way I can sync my remote to a new Wii is by turning the Wii off and back on again.

Will there be any signal overlap issues? Bluetooth is very powerful, and I doubt we will see this issue very much if at all. However, in the event that Wii consoles struggle to find 'its' remotes due to so many signals zooming around the room, what is the solution? Has anyone experimented with multiple (as in more than three) Wii consoles in the same room?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I usually see something along the lines of "It is the player's responsibility, should he choose to use a Wavebird, to make sure that he has fresh batteries and that his signal does not get stolen/overlapped. Please also bring a wired controller in case this happens."

Besides, I'd imagine most people will still prefer the GCN controllers they've used for Melee anyway.

 

[Overswarm]

Everyone is responsible for their own equipment, and that includes batteries.

Plus, you are advised in all major tournaments to bring an extra controller anyways.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

... and what of the sync issues?

 

[Overswarm]

... and what of the sync issues?

What issues?

Everyone is responsible for their own equpiment. If there are more than 16 people with a wavebird at a venue, that's 16 people that added the risk of crossing channels for the convenience of wireless play.

 

[Phaazoid]

if half the players use gc controllers, it might not be as big a deal, but if it is, whats wrong with pressing home and going to reconnect wiimotes? always works for me

 

[THK]

... and what of the sync issues?

Hit the sync button on the Wii console. Hit the sync button on the Wiimote. That usually takes care of it. If anything there should always be a back up plan.

 

[MVPaintballer]

Yea we had sync issues with the 360 controllers my controller kept connecting to the other 360 which was in a totally different room when we tried to LAN.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Well, Sakurai did say something about there being 4 different control type... So, a basic NGC controller on the Wii once Brawl comes out is good enough... People choose if they wanted to use a different style of controller otherwise... If they did choose a different control type and there has been a sync problem, then I really don't know how the ruling for it should go...

Probably lets just have it as:

"Only NGC controllers allowed. Other control types will take time in setting up, thus prolonging the tournament. We wish to complete the tournament as soon as possible that way everybody gets to play and champions can be declared."

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

OK, I see several problems with the responses so far.

First off, pointing out how "easy" it is to sync up controllers only avoids the discussion. I guarantee that since I have had trouble in the past, tournament hosts will run into players who have wireless controllers that have sync issues. MVPaintballer pointed out a classic example of a controller becoming sync'd with the wrong console. It is not sufficient to simply state that it is their problem. I guarantee that many players will complain saying, "I don't understand! It worked just fine up until today!" People who pay money to enter a tournament are not going to accept it as their own fault (unless it relates to batteries); there has to be some ruling leniency. I ask again: has anyone tested to see if any problems arise from having many Wii consoles in a single vicinity? Such problems could very well give rise to the semi-dreaded online tournaments.

Second, requiring Gamecube controllers is an unhealthy solution. It would work temporarily given the current state of things (the current tournament scene will mostly use Gamecube controllers), but we run into two problems here: (1) There are going to four available control schemes. It seems shallow-minded to restrict it to one. Players are going to find certain tactics that are easier to pull off with certain schemes, so it would be relatively unfair for those who do not like the Gamecube controls. This leads us to our second problem. (2) There are going to be many newcomers to the smash scene! Are we going to require them to go out and purchase Gamecube controllers? This also brings us back to forcing a player who already learned the game using a different control scheme.

 

[anonymous_joe]

I was thinking about the wiimote problem, besides them not syncing, wouldn't a major problem be them syncing to a different wii? Its happened to me before trying to sync mine with one wii and someone trying to sync theirs to another I ended up on the other wii.

 

[Yellow Mage]

And for the Wii Remotes to be temporarily synchronized, there has to be at least one Wii Remote alreadyn permanantly synchronized to the console.

Meaning, if tournies are providing thier own Wiis, then they'll have to provide players with at least one Wii Remote per console, which could likely end in mass-chaos without an extremely high level of foresight, on the level of reservations, which is just silly, if you ask me.

Of course, with being Wi-Fi compatible, I think that the whole tourney thing will become defunct, or obsolete. So it becomes a moot issue.

 

[Toomai]

To be honest, the only answer I can think of is to have the tournament directors provide pre-synched Wiimotes. It'd be annoying, but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Also, it would flat-line prevent any controller modders (we don't know the Wiimote controls, so it may be easy to mod the controllers to do something or harder to find them).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Of course, with being Wi-Fi compatible, I think that the whole tourney thing will become defunct, or obsolete. So it becomes a moot issue.

I understand your thinking on this, but you are incorrect. The Internet is not buttery smooth for everyone on it. For every player who has a strong never-failing connection there is another who has a router that drops every other data packet. The Internet is only as strong as its weakest link. I doubt online tournaments will ever really catch on. It will only allow for occasional friendly matches. The online tournament community will be very small (consisting of primarily players who have awesome Internet connections) compared to the live tournament community.

I was thinking about the wiimote problem, besides them not syncing, wouldn't a major problem be them syncing to a different wii? Its happened to me before trying to sync mine with one wii and someone trying to sync theirs to another I ended up on the other wii.

I agree. This is exactly what I referred to earlier. With so many Wii systems in the same room, it'll be interesting trying to force the remotes to cooperate. The little blue light may finally settle down, but that does not necessarily mean you've locked into the Wii right in front of you.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Batteries are the players responsibility. Syncing shouldn't be too problematic, and the syncing fixes interference from other controllers in the room (although that still leaves 16 wavebirds, not that it really matters). If all else fails: GCN controller ftw.

 

[k!llsw!tch]

I hope I don't lose connection as much as I do when this happens. I'll be using a GCN controller so the syncing problem doesn't worry me.

 

[THK]

I guess it's all a matter on how things are set up then? Sadly Wiimote syncing can only really be done at the health warning menu or the wii channel menu (I just do it at the start up health warning to be sure). I guess the Wiis could be off and when things are ready to go, boot up and sync up?

 

[Problem2]

We will have to take a min to properly sync since having more than one Wii trying to sync will cause remotes to sync to the wrong system. Don't even bother with the 1+2 sync. It's limited, temporary and will try to link with all th Wiis.

 

[Dacvak]

Has anyone experimented with multiple (as in more than three) Wii consoles in the same room?

I was on staff for the Nintendo Fusion Tour at one stop, and we set up 10 Wiis, all with Multiple controllers. We never had any problems.

The reason this is, is because instead of each Wiimote having a "channel" like the Wavebirds do, they each have their own MAC ID which is different for every single Wiimote. When the Wii declares a connection with a Wiimote, it will only communicate with the Wiimote if it has the MAC ID it connected with. This eliminates any possibility of having intereference.

~Dac

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I don't know all that much about how Wiimotes sync up to the consoles, but Dacvac's explanation is plausible. Not sure if it's correct (or incorrect), but it's plausible and realistic. If true, this would cover some of the technical side if done correctly. However, this doesn't cover the human side, and I'd like to offer some comments/thoughts on that.

"What happens if the batteries run out mid-match?" - Instant forfeit for the player whose batteries died. This is harsh, certainly. But it's a strong way to prevent abuse, especially since battery death is preventable; use the Home button to gauge how much power is left in the batteries, at their current rate of consumption. Once it gets down to two bars left, you replace them. Bring extra batteries for this. They're not expensive; it's easy to have a pouch full of AAs on you while traveling.

Players should also be encouraged to bring a corded controller if possible, i.e. a Gamecube pad.


"What about syncing to the wrong console?" - If I understand the sync procedure correctly, you have to put both the Wiimote and the console into a 'sync mode.' In other words, other Wiis not in sync mode shouldn't accept sync attempts from a Wiimote at that time, right? If this is true, a "traffic system" can be implemented at tournaments, where you go down the line in orderly fashion.

Imagine something like a piece of numbered paper next to each console, declaring that console and TV to be "Console 1", or "Console 2", and so on. At the start of each batch of matches, a quick sync session can be done. A tournament organizer could yell "Console 1, player 1! Sync now! Console 1, player 2, sync!", etc, and so on down the line until everyone is sync'ed. Done in a quick and orderly fashion, everyone should sync properly with a very low error rate.

I'll admit up front, the system I propose has one problem: A MASSIVE increase in the time required to finish a tournament. Let's be generous and assume each player needs 10 seconds to sync. You figure 2 to 4 players per console (depending on if it's a 1v1 or Teams tournament), and let's say... ...oh, is 70 participants a reasonable total per tournament? I'm honestly guessing here, since I've never attended a Smash tournament. But let's assume Brawl hits mass-market appeal and has a healthy tournament environment, and use the 70 player figure.

So, 70 players at 10 seconds apiece, assuming all goes well, per round of gameplay. That's 700 seconds per round, devoted just to sync time. You're in the neighborhood of ten minutes sync time, per round, in a 70 person event. If you use Double Elimination format, that's still about 5-7 rounds of gameplay. So...you'd be spending about an hour, grand total, sync'ing remotes. Is this acceptable, or is this too much time? Bear in mind 10 seconds is an estimate and assumes everyone knows the procedure; the total increases if people make mistakes, are slow, or just don't know what they're doing.


I'm just proposing theoretical fixes for the problem, admittedly. I base these observations more on experience with other tournament games, rather than Smash specifically, for lack of experience. But hopefully these thoughts will offer some good solutions.

 

[THK]

I was on staff for the Nintendo Fusion Tour at one stop, and we set up 10 Wiis, all with Multiple controllers. We never had any problems.

The reason this is, is because instead of each Wiimote having a "channel" like the Wavebirds do, they each have their own MAC ID which is different for every single Wiimote. When the Wii declares a connection with a Wiimote, it will only communicate with the Wiimote if it has the MAC ID it connected with. This eliminates any possibility of having intereference.

~Dac

Is that how it actually works? That's pretty facinating.

 

[ToXn]

Problem is at a tournament you have to move around and re-syncing is a pain. We will only need wiimote for booting up the system otherwise use GC controllers. Also nintendo either needs to let people browse the wii menu with Gamcube controllers, or (the better option) have an autoboot skipping the channel menu all together. Both can be done with a simple update.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Thank you, Dac, for the in-depth explanation of how they work. I assumed that once a remote is sync'd it would not have any problems following. I simply worry about remotes being sync'd to the wrong system. Here is my worry based on the way my Wii works: once a Wii remote has been sync'd to a Wii, it will automatically sync to that Wii with very little effort. When I use my Wii, I just pick up a remote, press any key, and it syncs within a couple seconds. I just want to prevent issues where the remote repeatedly syncs to a previous Wii.

 

[Spellman]

Once you start flickin' that red button on the back, the controller is going to become unsync'd. And the only way to sync it back up with a Wii (any Wii) is to press the red button on the Wii and the red button on the back of the remote at roughly the same time and they should be fine.

We have 3 Wii's here and at one point all 3 were in the living room, and we never had any trouble going back and fourth between them, although we've never tried syncing them up at the exact same time, which nobody should ever do anyways.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well, I want to run a small experiment and just see how difficult it is to quickly sync to one Wii, sync to another, sync to yet another, and then sync back to the first one.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I only have one Wii available in my building at the moment. I can easily set something up, but since one user already commented on having multiple Wiis, perhaps they can do this for us.



With the explanation of encryption on a Wiimote, I now see the only problem being to have an organized syncing system.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

if half the players use gc controllers, it might not be as big a deal, but if it is, whats wrong with pressing home and going to reconnect wiimotes? always works for me

It seems to me though that all the time i need to connect a wiimote that my wii hasnt "seen" before it seems more like a luck thing. It always stops when maybe there is two people connected, but the third person is left!

What gives with that?

 

[Pyroloserkid]

I've seen tonnes of Wavebirds at tournaments, there was no batterry problems because people are smart.

Anyways, just bring like 8 batteries =P .

Also, if we're forced to use only GC controller at tournaments I'll be VERY angry.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

silly Canadians

 

[Twin Dreams]

It seems to me though that all the time i need to connect a wiimote that my wii hasnt "seen" before it seems more like a luck thing. It always stops when maybe there is two people connected, but the third person is left!

What gives with that?

You're probably trying to temporarily sync the second and third wiimotes at the same time. If you at boot up, start up all controllers. It should work. If you are past the health warning screen, and you did them at the same time. I'd imagine that causing a problem.

 

[Padô]

Oh well guys!

here's the Solution!

I've already played a Mario Strikers Charged tournament here's the solution:

1st - turn a Wii on and sync 2 controllers
2nd - turn another wii on. Your back must be faced to the wii that was on and just sync other two controllers
3rd - And than other wii repeating the same method!


I might this should help you guys!

The real issue is: The commands will be configurable, will us have time to spend configurating each player controller? Should it be allowed?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The real issue is: The commands will be configurable, will us have time to spend configurating each player controller? Should it be allowed?

If Sakurai successfully implements the ability to save configs into the Wii remote memory, this shouldn't be a problem. If not... ugh... hosting is gonna be tricky.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Oh well guys!

here's the Solution!

I've already played a Mario Strikers Charged tournament here's the solution:

1st - turn a Wii on and sync 2 controllers
2nd - turn another wii on. Your back must be faced to the wii that was on and just sync other two controllers
3rd - And than other wii repeating the same method!


I might this should help you guys!

The real issue is: The commands will be configurable, will us have time to spend configurating each player controller? Should it be allowed?

What does step two in your replay do with anything?
Position or direction doesn't matter because it's bluetooth wireless. (If you're suggesting that the sensor bar is needed to sync remotes, that's now how the sensor bar works.)





Hosting solution (given Sakurai cannot have saved controller schemes):

This is also assuming you are allowed to save controller schemes on your system.



Early Sign-Ups--

Have people contact Host with Tag and controller set up. Host sets up tag with given controlls and saved to an SD card. At tournament start, load SSBB data from card to ALL wiis.




Walk Ins (before tournament start) --

Will be saved to Hosts SD card before Tournament Data load.



Walk Ins (after tournament start) --

screwed for not getting there on time. Default scheme.

 

[Red Exodus]

I don't know how syncing works so I can't comment on that, but I'll comment on the battery thing though.

If a player's battery dies it's their fault, no johns.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

silly Canadians

I'm lost. Because of the Wavebirds? =P

 

[Brockman5]

I think that the tournament would have to supply "rental" wii-motes...
You could sync the wii-motes to each wii...one wii at a time before the tournament...that would take forever though...

Batteries wouldn't be an issue because they would be charged before issued to each player...so no need for batteries....

and if your controller needed charged then you could just take it to the "main desk" and ask them to charge yours..or swap controllers...well those are my ideas....

 

[Red Exodus]

Then people would john about getting wacky controllers. No tournament supervisor is going to want to pay $60 per wiimote + nunchuka either, it will add up in the end. BYOC works best since it completely removes controller johns.

 

[Dantarion]

Its really not that hard to sync a remote to a Wii...the tourney would just have to have a system about when people are trying to sync up after a round...


i.e. People playing on Wii 1, sync remotes now.....okay....people on Wii 2, sync remotes now....okay...

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Its really not that hard to sync a remote to a Wii...the tourney would just have to have a system about when people are trying to sync up after a round...


i.e. People playing on Wii 1, sync remotes now.....okay....people on Wii 2, sync remotes now....okay...

Normally I would agree, but it is a case by case scenario. My Wii, for instance, does not cooperate so well when it comes to guest syncs. I suppose I could experiment with permanently syncing to each one; otherwise, it is just not that simple sometimes. If I can get to where it can be done at a decent rate, then yeah, most local tournaments I attend would probably max out at four or five Wiis.

 

[Gannondorf the fifth]

OK, I see several problems with the responses so far.

First off, pointing out how "easy" it is to sync up controllers only avoids the discussion. I guarantee that since I have had trouble in the past, tournament hosts will run into players who have wireless controllers that have sync issues. MVPaintballer pointed out a classic example of a controller becoming sync'd with the wrong console. It is not sufficient to simply state that it is their problem. I guarantee that many players will complain saying, "I don't understand! It worked just fine up until today!" People who pay money to enter a tournament are not going to accept it as their own fault (unless it relates to batteries); there has to be some ruling leniency. I ask again: has anyone tested to see if any problems arise from having many Wii consoles in a single vicinity? Such problems could very well give rise to the semi-dreaded online tournaments.

Second, requiring Gamecube controllers is an unhealthy solution. It would work temporarily given the current state of things (the current tournament scene will mostly use Gamecube controllers), but we run into two problems here: (1) There are going to four available control schemes. It seems shallow-minded to restrict it to one. Players are going to find certain tactics that are easier to pull off with certain schemes, so it would be relatively unfair for those who do not like the Gamecube controls. This leads us to our second problem. (2) There are going to be many newcomers to the smash scene! Are we going to require them to go out and purchase Gamecube controllers? This also brings us back to forcing a player who already learned the game using a different control scheme.

The first responce shall be: If you're not syncing at home, boo hoo. Obviously the wireless state is CLEARLY unstable, or more potentially, and while it may be "restricting" and seem "shallow" that doesn't mean it's unfair. It means LIFE'S unfair. Get over it. You obviously aren't a serious smasher if you're using the wii remote to play because i can swear to **** that a gamecube controller user will kick the shiza out of any wii remote user. You wanna pay money and intentionally suck, your issue, not mine.

The second responce shall be: I'm almost positive that it'll be impossible to play the game with the wii remote. There's still another controller that makes sence to me, and that's the old snes controller. The wii remote and it's nunchuck counterpart SHOULD NOT be used in serious play and I can gurantee you'll never see serious smashers, that WOULD pay money, going that route.

There's no issues here other then you want to be taking the lazier route with wireless, but not accepting it's obvious technical flaws. And with the remote, build me a bridge and cry me a river; nobody cares if it's shallow. You probably WILL be able to play the game with the remote, but don't go crying to nintendo because a gamecube user basically ***** you at a money paying tournament and your accessability to moves and maneuvers were seriously hampered or impossible.