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Tournaments not allowing Wii-mote/nunchuck!

The Game II

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
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Northern California
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/various14.html

The only way you could save your layout would be to carry your wiimote around with you at all times, and there resurfaces the synching issues.

So I was wondering if we could make a poll to discuss and vote on layouts with which everyone would be comfortable playing with. Would many oppose disabling the joystick as a way of jumping as a standard? Also, since light shielding is gone (?), would the removal of the springs in the L and R triggers be acceptable in tournaments? Does the argument that the people who would do so gain an unfair advantage still hold?
The people I've seen use the classic or the combo don't lend it to anyone else, and they always have it in their possession, so I still see no synching issues.

The bottom line for me is, why punish just a few select people that know how to work the combo or the classic and can get it up and running within seconds?

If we're talking about a little kid wanting to do it, and he or she spends 5 minutes trying to get it to work, then I see where you give the kid a GC controller and make them play with that.

But it's going to take a major issue such as "combo or classic player has a timing or kill advantage" for me to change my mind. There are so few people that use either weapon and have practiced with it, why force them to change?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me he or she had a major issue with the classic or the combo and it cost them a tournament match.

--GCII
 

David the Great

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
19
Tournaments in real life are way more fun than online ones. If you suck at the game, you'll suck no matter what controller you use.
But if you are good at a game it doesn't mean you will be good no matter what controller you use. Most arcade fighting game players carry around an arcade stick for a good reason.
 

HAYAKU

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
24
Location
bronx,ny
I'm actually not surprised n happy about this choice honestly idk how ppl can want to play at tournaments or even at home wit da nunchuk i can understand the classic but nunchuk dats just no fun
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
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Aug 11, 2005
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I'm actually not surprised n happy about this choice honestly idk how ppl can want to play at tournaments or even at home wit da nunchuk i can understand the classic but nunchuk dats just no fun
And why exactly would it be no fun?
 

Eggm

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Aug 29, 2006
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Neptune, NJ
"Shoot, I dropped my battery, oh man it rolled under that TV where two guys are jiggs dittoing on dreamland, 8 minute delay + 2 mins to sync. Just stick w/ the GC for tourneys.
 

JTB

Live for the applause
Premium
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
6,512
No rising pound. Sucks for Pruff players....
Lol, random post ftw. Rising pound does work in Brawl =\

Its ******** to ban wireless controllers simply on the basis of wasting time. It's not hard for tournaments to start including rules about wireless controllers, giving the player a total of maybe 2 minutes to get completely synced before requiring them to use a GC controller. Players shouldn't be punished for learning how to play differently.

Plus, banning controllers = big johns afterwards. No one likes johns.

No battery johns though. It should be completely up to the players to have fully charged batteries.

There just needs to be a standard rule set for wireless controllers and stickied in Tournament Listings so that every TO knows about it.
 

BentoBox

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"Shoot, I dropped my battery, oh man it rolled under that TV where two guys are jiggs dittoing on dreamland, 8 minute delay + 2 mins to sync. Just stick w/ the GC for tourneys.
Unrealistic hypothetical situations ftl.
 

rx-007

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
81
Location
Toronto, ON
its also kinda lame that nintendo doesnt even manufacture the gc controllers anymore....the options are limited
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
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Messages
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Location
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This one shouldn't cause as many problems... or would it? Works the same way as the Wavebird as there's a dongle to be plugged in the Wii. Considering the difficulty of finding 1rst party GC controllers these days, I'm beginning to look at solid alternatives. Bought 2 3rd party controllers from ebay less than 2 months ago and the joysticks already died on me (one literally snapped while the other gave me the n64 treatment after 3 weeks...)
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
6,283
Location
Upstate NY
It's impossible to sync wiimotes when there are 10 other wii's with 40 other wiimotes looking to get synced.

There is no justification, it is not possible on any reasonable scale.

It's a waste of time.

It's a gimmick.
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
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The Gamecube is pretty much dead. And when we're givien the option of playing Brawl with the nunchuck and whatnot, what main incentive is there for Nintendo to keep producing more? Will we still be able to buy 1rst parties 2 years from now? And what will happen then?

Oh and where can I find 1rst parties?
 

Endless Nightmares

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
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MN
"Shoot, I dropped my battery, oh man it rolled under that TV where two guys are jiggs dittoing on dreamland, 8 minute delay + 2 mins to sync. Just stick w/ the GC for tourneys.
LMAO, oh god I might just sig that

They should come up with wired classic controllers that would fit into the GC port. Having it attached to the Wiimote is just dumb.
 

Firestorm88

Smash Lord
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Jun 4, 2005
Messages
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Vancouver, BC
You can't use a wavebird at a large tournament unless there are under 16 people using it.

I didn't know about this taking out battery trick to get controllers synced easier. I will try it sometime. Is there a limit to how many bluetooth connections can be in the same room before it gets all wonky?
 

entrapment

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
80
Location
Gainesville, FL [UF]
....wow so many bad arguments.

Though I have to say Gerbil quote "Because if you are a veteran of the Smash scene, you'll more than likely stick to a GC controller anyways. If you're new, you're more than likely to lose regardless of what controller you're using…" by far the funniest statement made for disagreement on usage of wireless controllers.

Might as well say.......don't play at all because you’re just going to lose, for a tournament host that seems illogical and a scare to any new blood trying to make a name for their selves.

When you think about it at first the idea of sync controller to be a hassle but there are ways to work yourself around it. One could always start a tournament earlier to the plan engagement to accommodate the time that will be lost in the frustration of syncing or tell those who like to sync come earlier and be on task to their matches and be ready to go for prompt match seems like an option any level headed host can concur to. Also the issue with battery life can be addressed by informing those that like to use their wiimotes/classic controllers that they must come to the tournament with an unopened pack of AA batteries or must purchase a pack from the event staff member. I just synced my next door neighbors Wiimote to see how long it takes it ran about 1 min and 23 secs. to do. So what is the argument where trying to make that the smash community is to lazy to adjust to a new game and concept, that wireless controllers are a hindrance, or are we so stuck in the past we will clash with anything that tries to change the way we played our Melee.

Just be honest and say you don’t feel like taking the time for the costumers (gamers) to apply standards for any amount of service you like to obtain. So ether run a non-B.Y.O.C because if people bring their own you will denied them or run a free tournament where no one has the right to complain about service since it being provided for free.
 

fritzscoot

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
32
Location
NCSU
Are there any more large tournaments, like FR, that have made a decision on controller bans? I really want to try the wiimote/nun setup, but not master it if tournaments are not going to allow them.
 

Jimiisama

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Messages
111
Location
Orlando, FL
Why is this an argument anyway? Imagine this: You're in a room with hundreds of people, and each one of them has a wireless controller. You don't think there're gonna be major issues? Issues with syncing? Issues with interference? The guy to your left accidentally syncing to the Wii you're playing on? It's not that wireless is bad; it's just that having hundreds of wireless controllers in one room can cause issues.
 

Endless Nightmares

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MN
....wow so many bad arguments.
And you just added to them =]

When you think about it at first the idea of sync controller to be a hassle but there are ways to work yourself around it. One could always start a tournament earlier to the plan engagement to accommodate the time that will be lost in the frustration of syncing or tell those who like to sync come earlier and be on task to their matches and be ready to go for prompt match seems like an option any level headed host can concur to.
Except that at tournaments you will be moving around from setup to setup, and you will have to sync dozens of times.

I just synced my next door neighbors Wiimote to see how long it takes it ran about 1 min and 23 secs. to do. So what is the argument where trying to make that the smash community is to lazy to adjust to a new game and concept, that wireless controllers are a hindrance, or are we so stuck in the past we will clash with anything that tries to change the way we played our Melee.
No. You fail. Think about it, let's say there are 60 non-GC controller players at a Brawl tournament. 1 min and 23 secs. x 60 is approximately an hour and a half of sync time. Not to mention that they will be moving from setup to setup. Also some syncs can take even longer. And the tons of other wireless setups that may interfere with the sync. It takes all of 2 seconds to plug in a GC controller. You do the math.

Just be honest and say you don’t feel like taking the time for the costumers (gamers) to apply standards for any amount of service you like to obtain. So ether run a non-B.Y.O.C because if people bring their own you will denied them or run a free tournament where no one has the right to complain about service since it being provided for free.
Just be honest and say you didn't think this argument out very well before you posted :ohwell:
 

otter

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
616
Location
Ohio
Please remember that Wiimotes can save people's control schemes and names which will make up for maybe all of the time. I've never seen people ban custom controls for the reason that it takes too long. What is it about this game that makes people so hostile?

About the battery life thing. If someones controller doesn't work, they find a new one or they don't play. Just like they would if anything else happened.
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
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Montreal
That's a point I brought up earlier. If people aren't willing to spare of bit of their time synching motes, then control mapping loses all of its appeal...
 

The Game II

Smash Champion
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Northern California
Why is this an argument anyway? Imagine this: You're in a room with hundreds of people, and each one of them has a wireless controller. You don't think there're gonna be major issues? Issues with syncing? Issues with interference? The guy to your left accidentally syncing to the Wii you're playing on? It's not that wireless is bad; it's just that having hundreds of wireless controllers in one room can cause issues.
At a Major, there won't be 300 people using the Classic or the Combo, it'll be more like 10 or less. This is not a radical revolution, just a choice by less than 1 percent of the community.

I laugh because people are saying OMG Seenking Takexs F0r3v3r. It's 30 seconds if you do it right.

otter said:
Please remember that Wiimotes can save people's control schemes and names which will make up for maybe all of the time. I've never seen people ban custom controls for the reason that it takes too long. What is it about this game that makes people so hostile?
I was going to bring up EVO and its BYOC rule, but this spelled it out.

--GCII
 

AlphaZealot

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(taken from my comment on Glenn's story here: http://www.gameriot.com/blogs/Get-Your-Tournament/Analysis-Controller-options/#comments)

If the controllers are banned it will be for one or two reasons, and these are the only real acceptable reasons for banning the alternatives to the GC Controller: Interferance and Syncing.

Syncing wouldn't be a problem if only experienced players were at the tournament, however this will almost never be the case. I own a Wii, but really, I've only synced my controllers ONCE and if you asked me how to sync them I wouldn't have a clue. For me, if I did choose to use a wireless controller at a tournament, I would certainly make sure I knew how to sync it before hand, but this sentiment will not be true for most players and it will cause an unneeded hassle at larger tournaments. I would also point to people running out of batteries midmatch, a problem an experienced player probably won't have because they will make sure to have a fresh set of batteries, but younger and more inexperience/less serious players will probably not have the foresight to do this and given enough players, someone will be bound to have battery problems mid match, and if I happen to be playing this person there is no way in hell I'm going to pause while they switch out batteries. Yet, I can already see the *****ing and moaning that would happen if randomscrub309 ran out of batteries and I pummeled his lifeless Pikachu for a "free" win.

In the end though, its the interference that can't be ignored. I don't anticipate wireless controllers being banned at small tournaments, but larger tournaments, and if MLG picks up the game, you can be sure its more than likely wired controllers will be required. Keep in mind MLG already has a set a precedent in this area by banning wireless controllers at all their events.

The following is a quote from M3D from about 8 months ago when we discussed this issue in the backroom:

m3d said:
802.11 networks, the kind of wireless technology that DS systems and Wiis use to connect to the web and each other, can handle about 50-100 devices being in the same area before things really grind to a halt. 802.11 devices use a narrow portion of 2.4 Ghz range to transmit and whenever a device "hears" another 802.11 packet of data from another device, it refrains from transmitting until that packet has passed. While a few devices won't have any issues under this system, once you start hitting any more than that, you will see some serious slow down and lag. Additionally, any strong radio waves in the immediate area or any large number of additional electronic devices in the immediate vicinity can increase that interference significantly.

The Wii also uses another wireless technology, Bluetooth, to connect to the wiimotes. Fortunately, wiimotes and the system communicate under passkeys that lock the Wii and the controller to one another. That's why you can see a series of stations at Nintendo events, all using wireless controllers, that function just fine close to other stations. Bluetooth devices also use a pseudo-random switching system, to make small changes to the frequency about 1600 times per second. This further prevents interference with the devices.

However, according to bluetooth experts, the chances of two bluetooth devices in close range creating interference for each other is 1/79. Considering that 1600 changes are made per second, you can see the bluetooth devices are robust enough to handle regular spurts of interference here and there. However, the more devices you pack into one space, the more often that 1-in-79 chance interference actually happens. Bluetooth devices are also more robust than 802.11 technology when it comes to outside interference from televisions, power cables, cell phones and other electronic devices because they use the entire 2.4Ghz range to communicate and change rapidly. Unfortunately, they are not 100% resistent, so the more devices you pack into a single space, the more potential interference you encounter.

So imagine for a moment that you are using the Wii and wireless controllers to run a local tournament. It's the beginning of th event, which means lots of 4-man warm-ups and teams matches following. That means at each station, you have 5 bluetooth enabled devices (Wii + 4 controllers). Assuming you have 10 stations set up, that's 50 bluetooth enabled devices, plus the televisions, power strips, cell phones, DS systems and computers. Bluetooth has a maximum range of about 30 feet and an optimal range of 15 feet, so the closer any of these devices come to one another, the more likely interference will occur. Additionally, if any of the devices are networked together, for instance, some players are using the DS to play Pokemon between rounds, the interference increases. That interference will hurt the game of Pokemon more than it will hurt the game of Smash, but it will effect the Wiimotes. I am not terribly good at math, so someone else will have to calculate how a 1/79 chance, each of the 1600 changes per second, times 50 devices will play out and how often we can expect interference to occur.

So considering all of this, the question is, what is an acceptable amount of interference? As you can see, even small events are going to experience it in some fashion. It might not be enough to make the tournament unplayable, but its possible that the interference will effect the outcome of the matches if normal device functionality is interupted for a fraction of a second, every few seconds. Imagine attempting to run an event the size of FC, with 30 stations, 150 devices, plus 200 people talking on cell phones, playing on their DS and laptops and running power to TVs across a mile or so of cable. Sure not ALL of the devices will be within the 30 foot range, but they will overlap with dozens of potentially interfering devices no matter how well that gymnasium is arranged.

On top of all that, one has to consider the actual operation of the tourament and what kind of effect resetting the system over and over again to sync controllers will have on the ability to run the tournament smoothly. It will waste about 5 minutes each time the system has to be reset and controllers are synced. And since you will run into more problems if any other systems are resynced within the 30-foot range at the same time, even more time will be wasted staggering the reboot of systems within a certain range. If we allow wireless controllers at Brawl events, tournament organizers can expect to run about 25-30% longer easily than they have with Melee.
---------
His last part about controllers syncing may be/is an exageration but the interference part is pretty sound.

If only 10 or so people bring these types of controllers then yea, it probably won't be a problem. But the days of Melee tournaments are over, I'd guess at tournaments, at least for the next year, a quarter to half the participants will be Melee vets, the other half or so will be new players. Plus this needs to be looked at in a longer term perspective as well.

I think the solution is simple, allow use of wireless controllers but also include a note: In the event a wireless controller malfunctions (low batteries, interference) midgame the game shall NOT be replayed and the current game will be finished regardless of the wireless controllers condition.

That comment will get the point across and fairly warn anyone of the results from their choice. Basically it'll become like the wavebird was in Melee.
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2006
Messages
1,035
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La Jolla, CA
1 minute and 23 seconds is an unacceptably long time to wait every time one wishes to play a match. Compounded by the fact that both players may need to sync, and there may be other players on other machines trying to sync, its clear why any major tournament would need to ban wireless controllers.

This has nothing to do with 'clinging to the past.' Its simple logistics. MLG bans wireless controllers for the same reason.
 

TempestFunk

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
63
I think the solution is simple, allow use of wireless controllers but also include a note: In the event a wireless controller malfunctions (low batteries, interference) midgame the game shall NOT be replayed and the current game will be finished regardless of the wireless controllers condition.
I agree with this. Interference and batteries should not be an issue. If you don't like the idea of losing a match because of a chance of a controller malfunction, thats fine, just don't use it. But why force other people to follow suit?

and to address the issue of syncing... why not just have 2 wiimotes always synced with each Wii? Also, instead of each player bringing their own Wiimotes have them bring their own batteries? (have the wiimote natively synced to the Wii by pressing the red button inside the battery case, as opposed to pressing 1 and 2).
 

Rizzle1110

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
25
no remotes are understandible, most people are probably used to gamecube controllers anyway
 
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