Toonami Mafia - Game Over - Daytime Programing wins!

[#HBC | Kary]

kev i'm not even trying to call you out. i'm trying to call out playerslots (WATT/PJB spring to mind) that are pushing scumreads on the basis of ignoring a slot/etc.

it's a feeling i'm getting generally, that pressure is being applied more opportunistically than it is logically or with intent to actually get a read on a slot. here's a case study:

WATT pulls out this post to demonstrate a potential connection between Vinyl Badwolf;

The only people you should be voting is either gangsta or bsp.

V/LA tomorrow for school and vga awards.

And I'll leave this vote down. Vote: Gangsta

IR, we thought that this was a possible connection slip between vinyl and BW. Your thoughts on it?
[reason being, vinyl has no reason to just ignore bw completely and say "these guys or nothing" out of nowhere, considering the timing of the statement and that vinyl's not the kind to just ignore people's wagon.]

the argument seems to be that 'vinyl doesn't ignore waggons' and so in this case not mentioning BW is suspicious. but idk where that meta on vinyl comes from. i'm also not sure he IS ignoring BW, i think that he's townreading BW. apparently the timing is supsect but it follows a page of BW vs soup getting heated and going nowhere.

it's this sort of 'connections case' i strongly dislike. for instance, if you thought the post was weird from vinyl at the time why didn't you ask him about it then?

secondly, and more importantly. let's say you want to make a BW/Vinyl connections case. how long does it take to read all 20 of vinyl's posts? because you stumble across this gem:

Vote: BSP

Instead of this ****storm, we'll pass this lynch through and get something out of it.
And THEN, I don't want BW talking crap yet again, or I'll just lynch him myself, unvote, then Hammer the lynch.

Consider that as a warning, bw.

now maybe this is a weird/fake interaction with the BW slot, idk. it could just read as though he's sick of BW *****ing. but whatever. my point is that if you were looking for a Vinyl > BW connection, THIS is it. and this post completely undermines the stance WATT did take. I was going to bring this post up before the vinyl lynch happened, but as it happened i didn't have time before the hammer came down.

so, the tl;dr. what i'm seeing a lot of is bad accusations. either its scum just having excuses to push a slot, or just poor, unbalanced town play, but whichever it is i want it to stop. i could go on but ehh. maybe now you hear me.


p.s. your question wasn't loaded and i didn't call it dumb. but w/e

 

[BSP]

request replacement

Sorry guys.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

request replacement

Sorry guys.

*tableflip.gif*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll look for a replacement later tonight.

 

[vanderzant]

Gonna go through parts of this game chronologically then finish with a reads list, because I think it's important I show my take on the earlier parts of the game as they shape my final reads quite a bit.

Ok first things first, RadFic vs Soup. When I Initially read this (when the game started) I thought that Swiss might of had a scum read on Soup for jostling for thread power, similar to what Scum Xonar and Soup did in Ryker Mafia (Swiss goes over this in his #183 http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15112691&postcount=183)

However, in this instance it's clear to me Soup wasn't attempting to gain sway over the thread or gain power over Swiss.

Quit ignoring me, you know damn well what I meant and have forced me into this state. There's no way your read is legitimate as there was no need for pressure seeing how it was made for everyone.

Soup is clearly pissed and assumes Swiss is just talking out of his ***, but apart from his anger I like the way he dealt with the pressure. In this situation I think scum are going to have one of two reactions. Either (a) they'll cave into the pressure and panic, or (b) attempt to deflect the argument and spin accusations onto the other person. Soup does vote (or at least, attempt to) RadFic, however to it is clear that Soup has a mindset of trying to get more information out of Swiss, rather than incriminate him as scum.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15112227&postcount=159

^ This post is a great example of what I mean. "they should be willing to understand when I want something out of them." While he's clearly mad, Soup's motives are to get info out of RadFic and make him cooperate, not paint a picture of him being scummy. So out of this back and forth Soup read pretty townie to me.

BW's #142 and #143 don't tell me much, he just answers questions and takes a shot at a single post made by Soup.

I just finished up a game with you. Mass Effect.

The other head, I don't think I've played with.



Let's not jump to conclusions too fast. While I don't fancy inactivity either, we need to give everyone a good look before we just lynch off of inactivity.



I believe Ryker has gotten a rule associated with never trusting him. I suggest you make some effort into looking at his intentions before just sheeping him.



Can you spell this out for me? I thought a lack of backbone was something to be worried about. Why pathetic town over anything else?

RadFic, I understand your confidence in this Soup read. Would you be willing to lynch him right now?

BSP's #144 is his awkward entrance post, and from it stems most of the suspicion thrown at his slot. No commitment and just responding to select things.

KevinM's #145 is… eh. He misinterprets Soup's vote. I like the BSP vote in his next post though.


http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15112476&postcount=174

BSP's #174 and #179 is ok. In his defence, he didn't totally ignore the RadFic vs Soup as he asked them if they were serious and was curious why they weren't substantiating their read. And the game had just started, so it's definitely possible for a new player to comment on things in order to build discussion.

Something I've noticed by this stage is that WATT is definitely taking a back seat in discussing playing. I could do an ISO but at this point, but he's essentially just directing questions at different people. It's early at this stage, but I'm keeping a mental note to look out for him.

BSP's #202 is again ok. Coming across as he is legitamtely interested in RadFic's read on Soup.

This is the question posed to your RF, I want to know more about where you are coming from with your Soup vote. Like what Gheb said earlier, you have no reason to ignore this request as it helps push the Soup wagon.

However, we are both confident in the BSP wagon. His first post is pretty bad. A lot was happening in the thread, yet he focused on random posts that don't really show scum hunting. The worst part of that post has to be the bit wrt Ryker. Telling other players to not trust another slot without actually looking at their content in the game is no bueno.

You already say you don't agree with RF's scum read on Soup, so what is your read on RF then? What about KevinM, why did you flip out over him calling you scum and start to explain everything you have done?

#211: IR expands on his BSP scum read. Well, he restates that BSP's first post focused on random things that didn't show scum hunting. However I think the bolded is a bit of a reach. BSP literally said "don't sheep Ryker without looking at his intentions." A bit different to what IR is claiming.

Overall from what I've read, this is the basis for the BSP wagon. So essentially, why is BSP scummy at this stage? His awkward entrance into the game (#144) and his eagerness to defend himself. Sure, these could be considered scummy actions in of themselves, but I really only see them as small things in the greater picture of BSP's play. All of his defenses have read genuine to me and he's made his motivations painstakingly clear. Yes, he came into the game slightly awkward but he has stood by his actions and not backpedaled on his play at all.

Now the first thing that really strikes me as scummy at this stage is MiR.

BadWolf's immediate townread from both of RadFic's first post in the game is weird. Null actions/questions at the start of the game should not immediately be read as town.

BSP's lack of commitment to important issues and sudden assurance in RadFic's Soup read is unsettling to me. He denies it, but I don't think he has a real reason for understanding the confidence in it. RadFic himself had no reason to be that confident in a scumSoup read at the time and it shows by how he later backed off. I like the pressure there at the moment.

vote: BSP

I like this KevMo and want to play more games with him.

Vinyl is an ***.

Snipped a bit about his discussion on Soup/RadFic (he basically says he doesn't have a solid read on either player).

What's interesting to me though is that MiR is seriously grilling BSP over his use of the word "confidence." I'm assuming this is Laundry so I'm not really sure how he's misinterpreting it. Even if he has just skimmed it, I'm not sure how a certain word choice justifies a vote on BSP. Also interesting is that he expresses a pretty spot on dislike for BadWolf at this stage, yet chooses to get on the BSP wagon.

#257: KevinM says Soup could be scum and that he is confident in BSP scum. I found it interesting that my thoughts are almost opposite at this stage, but I am reading with Badwolf scum in mind.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15114738&postcount=259

#259: Joey: This is a great post and actually says a lot of what I think. I understand the IR vote and I'd probably have pushed in that direction (based on his BSP vote) if I were in the game at this time.

#334: Not a fan of Gangsta's comments. Odd mention of BW's 95% confidence, could be scum distancing. Town reads on WATT and IR are odd, gives no read on Soup or RadFic which is also odd.

#355: BSP's defence here, once again seems fine to me.

#442: Gangsta: Not a fan of this reads list. Very brief, says Joey hasn't done anything at this stage which is blatantly untrue as Joey is one of my stronger Town reads at this point.

Soup continues to send me mixed signals, at least no straight out scum feel on him. Will probably question him later on some things.

IR is on the right track here. Though I have no idea why BSP over Badwolf.
KeviM is also a pretty towny guy just like IR.

Is Kary doing stuff again
sigh
sec let me read up on what he did so far

#464: MiR, honestly just feels like him bussing BW (Vote is in #466). I don't understand how he can just throw out a Town read on KevinM at this stage, and to me it seems almost solely based off of meta and without enough solid info to go on. I can't honestly see what solid town tells he's getting from his posts. At this stage KevinM is literally just pushing for a BSP lynch, asking some questions and trying to bro people. It's not inherently scummy, but there is literally not enough information on his slot to be that comfortable with him. Why couldn't or wouldn't KevinM do this as scum? It's no stretch of the imagination that he couldn't.

The thing that strikes me the most though is that it's not as if he's liking KevinM/IR's push on BSP. He literally says "Though I have no idea why BSP over Badwolf" when talking about IR/Kevin. Truth be told, the only legitimate reason I can see him town readin KevinM at this stage is that he approves his push on BSP, yet it the same post he's trying to swing momentum onto BW.

I also find it weird he isn't sure in his Soup read at this stage. Just feels very non committal when Soup is the slot with the most information on the table.

#549: I am ok with PJB.

The only people you should be voting is either gangsta or bsp.

V/LA tomorrow for school and vga awards.

And I'll leave this vote down. Vote: Gangsta

#553: This really bugs me from Vinyl. Is this an attempt to halt the BW wagon? I really can't tell o.o

#682: PJB confirmed not scum with BadWolf

aight guys why aren't we voting Radfic>?

yes?

no?

thankyou

and goodnight

Ahahahahahahaha. This makes me laugh. I can't say why though.

I'm talking with J on skype and I'm typing for him:

BSP and Badwolf are town and anyone on those wagons should be ashamed.

Badwolf calm down, take a breath, and come back later. He kind of reminds of Joey when he first starting playing, especially this game. RadFic, WL, and Gheb do you agree with me?

Soup I have my eye on you because your pushes on Radfic and Badwolf are terribad and opportunistic. Your anger is a bit too overreacted and sounds forced and you're trying to sound pissed off. You've played with wolf before and you never got this angry.

RadFic's pretty okay so far. I like the MiR vote because it's a WL/Xonar hydra and none of their posts have given me indication of their alignment besides some points that are bad which makes me want to lean scum on them.

Joey's hella town. This is a read we both agree on.

I'll have more to say when I get back.

Dislike these opinions from Gangsta J, but from experience I'm bad at reading J. Many times when we've heavily disagreed on read we've ended up both being town. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I suck at it so this doesn't do much for my opinion on this slot.

Right now we would go with Soup. His anger is very over the top and his pushes have been terrible. I've seen him angry but never like this and it feels feigned/forced to us.

Wtf, you want to lynch Soup for being angry?!!! REALLY dislike this. I think this is Inferno posting but if Soup is faking this anger he's playing me.

#807: BSP claims Immunity to all night actions. Too ballsy to be a fake claim imo, but it's not really telling of his alignment.

Rajam starts posting some content. I can see where he's is coming from with his WATT read.

#882: Like this observation by Rajam

At this point I kinda stopped taking notes as I think I have enough to do a full reads list. Time for new post!

 

[vanderzant]

Firstly I'll talk about Vinyl's aligment. I didn't particularly notice any strong scum or Town tells, just strange reads and observations that I don't particularly understand. Additionally, considering the speed of his wagon, it could honestly go either way:

Quick read.



BSP scummy because he flawed after a few posts, which I do not have to quote for examples whatsoever. I decline badwolf as scum and I do decline my vote after the argument both of you had.

As I already said, eiher bsp or gangsta have to go.

All his reads bug me because I can't understand his thought process (He doesn't explain it and none of it is incredibly logical or obvious). It's as if he's just picking names out of a hat or something o.o.

Onto the scum flip of BadWolf, there are two people who strike me the most as likely candidates for partners, based both on their individual play and connection to BW. This first is Nabe, based on MiR's earlier play and the second one I have is WATT.

WATT is a mixed bag in the sense that initially I liked his efforts in progressing the game, however I don't think he's taken exceptionally firm stances on his own and has tended to just "go with the crowd" in a lot of instances. An example of this was the BSP wagon, where despite having plenty of opportunity to get on him earlier if he did find him scummy, his vote was #6 and felt a bit tacked on.

I do like how he posts frequently and asks plenty of questions, however none of his posts really slap me in the face with town direction or intent. He asks for lots of reads but none of his play has been especially memorable to me, which is odd because of how active his slot has been. It definitely feels as if he's sitting back and trying to avoid taking hard stances without prior approval, and instead asking other people for their reads first.

It's a very "safe" style in the sense that he's making his presence known, but without trying to lead or get into strong engagements. I honestly can't think back to any event in the game and think "oh yeah, WATT was responsible for this!" Truth be told, this can be said about a lot of players, but none with the activity and presence that WATT has had.

What??

EVERYONE STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND GO CHECK ON WATT

ok this guy is scum, and it should be clear after you re-read him and what he has done this Day. HE HAS AVOIDED TO GIVE POSTURES ALL GAME. I just did so, and his only post with some sort of postures would be his #566 which is clearly not good. Again, he has not given postures so far, and has avoided doing so by making others to give the reads. His questions aren't sharp nor agressive enough, he's just asking the political right questions; nothing that you could say "wow this guy is town!". Combine that with lack of postures and you have the classical scum that hides behind his "contributions" but avoids to give hard stances that can be tracked back later

vote: Wots All This Then?

Rajam raises a good point here that he has been slow to take stances and generally waits for others to give them first. I don't think WATT addressed this but it's a fair point in that he's playing incredibly passive despite being very active.

I also believe that there's a strong possibility that he was bussing BW:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15122364&postcount=534

Before BW openly said he was scum, WATT's only real opinion of BW was that he shouldn't be so confident about his RadFic read. And then he's literally like:

just read soup vs badwolf.Unvote Vote:Badwolf

To me it's possible that WATT panicked over BW calling himself scum in thread and decided to go into full bus mode.

Nah, I'm still here for like 2 seconds. I like how you're getting pissed about this now tho... That was like 3 days ago? Why are you mentioning it now? And why all the salt?

Because it's still important, and you still haven't addressed it. It's IMO blatant scum intent and I don't intend to let you get away with it just because we're a hydra.

So will you give us your reasoning for your top scum and town picks now? (and maybe an explanation for why you didn't want to before?)

Look at these interactions. Is BW losing his **** and going all aggro mode towards WATT? Nope. This is weird to me because WATT literally said "just read soup vs badwolf vote: badwolf."

Put yourself in Badwolf's shoes and pretend you're scum… wouldn't someone just climbing onto the wagon like that with no reasoning frustrate the hell out of you?

I know I'd be pissed.

It just all feels very forced to me. Both players are saying vague things about the other, accompanied by vague follow up questions like "why are you mentioning it now" and "what are your town/scum picks?"

Lol, I sometimes wonder why I'm doing this. I find it funny that I actually do stuff and then you say "nope that's not good enough". I feel like me being V/LA was actually better.

Again, this just stands out as fake to me from BW. It's just so vague and distant as if BW doesn't really care what WATT thinks of him. This is in stark contrast to his rage directed at Soup and PJB.

/replace out I can't ****ing stand any of you people.

PBJ you can die. Actually use your ****ing brain. Holy **** you remind me of the stupid kids shows that have to explain every ****ing detail for the *******.

Soup needs to take some ****ing calming meds before he blows a ****ing blood vessel.

WATT you need to actually start caring.

RF thanks for being one of the voices of reason. Keep being smart.

Quoted and bolded for emphasis. He tells WATT that he needs to start "caring". What does this even mean? That because WATT is voting him he doesn't care? Contrast this to what he says to Soup and PJB who are apparently the two dumbest people to ever play the game of mafia… and again, this reads as incredibly fake and forced to me.

The next person I dislike the most is Gangsta. I agree largely with what Soup has said about the slot. There reads bug me, and I'm not really sure how they ended up with BSP/BW Town and Soup scum. I can maybe forgive the BW read, because I'm certainly biased as I read with his scum flip in mind, but his accusation that Soup's anger is forced and therefore he's scummy just doesn't sit right with me. Overall they are probably a slight scum lean and I really want to see more from the J side, who's general play I'm more experienced with.

Kary has being playing catch up all game, but in general I'm actually pretty ok with his play. I probably should elaborate on why I am ok with him but I really couldn't be bothered, Frankly I don't see him as a play toDay. Those who want to lynch him, show me a case and I'll look at it. Till then there are scummier fish to fry.

KevinM is probably my only null read at this stage, as I honestly have no real clue on how to read him. However, I put faith into Swiss' town read on him because I assume Swiss has played with him more than I have (I literally haven't played a game with KevinM for two years, and I think it was as a hydra in Halo Mafia). He seems enthusiastic and his play has been pretty pro-town, however I notice a lot of our reads differ which makes me reluctant to commit to a town read him so easily. MiR's buddying actually makes me feel like a Nabe scum flip = Kevin Town, though that's probably a naive assumption to make.

Rajam has been pretty non existent. I liked the couple of things he pointed out about WATT and MiR, but overall he's had 18 posts. I liked some of what he's said though, so slight town lean at this stage.

BSP as I said earlier felt incredibly genuine in his defence. I'm assuming he's fairly new and I think it's a pretty common thing for a new player to come into the game awkwardly. I summed up my thoughts on him in my previous post and after mulling it over a bit they all stand. Like Kary, I want to see why he's scummy and not just from his #144. He has been a bit silent in the latter stages of Day 1, but I don't think we can really distinguish between active lurking and inactiveness.

PJB, in general I like how he came into the game. His reads were solid and I don't see him as scum with BW. A lot of his posts give me strong town vibes, but I can't really be bothered to justify a town read right now.

Joey like PJB came into the game very strongly and I really liked his posts. He has been a strong voice of reason, especially in questioning IR who at one point had incredible tunnel vision. Again, not going to get into specifics.

Soup I've said enough about. Apart from the initial read, all of his play has read genuine to me and in many instances his thoughts line up with mine. Aaaaanndd I think that's everyone

Nabe
WATT
Gangsta
Kary
KevinM
Rajam
BSP
PJB
Joey
Soup

Overall, I'm going to put my vote on WATT as I'm interested to see more of what Nabe has to say.

Vote: WATT

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Ya know, I didn't really understand the whole WATT hate situation before. Maybe the fact that he was active, and seemed like he was pushing BW alongside me, blinded me. Also Rajam just kind of stating vague things like "Watt has no intent or stances" felt like forced content to me. I guess he just knew what he was talking about better than I did. I'd also be lying if I said I didn't skim a word of it.

After reading what vanderzant pointed out with specific examples, like BW blowing up on me+soup but not watt, I can see something there. I may have to look back over everything rajam was trying to say that went over my head, to see if I agree with it now.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Vanz

I've been townreading WATT because of early interaction, but the way you presented it makes me (slightly) doubt myself. I think your post was what I needed for to refresh my mind. What do you think of recent arguments against BSP? Him replacing out?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Kinda just did a re-read/skim of the whole game. I didn't look at WATT rather I looked at how the game progressed. I went back and saw Badwolf trying to pin me and BSP as partners, yet totally ignoring BSP. I'm not sure if Badwolf was just trying to make his read seem legitimate or there's intention of a bus. I really can't stand what BSP is doing right now (and the fact he replaced out) so I'm really hoping for someone who tie up those loose ends.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Dyslexia in the morning. I might do this a bit more indepth later.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

WATT pulls out this post to demonstrate a potential connection between Vinyl Badwolf;

the argument seems to be that 'vinyl doesn't ignore waggons' and so in this case not mentioning BW is suspicious. but idk where that meta on vinyl comes from. i'm also not sure he IS ignoring BW, i think that he's townreading BW. apparently the timing is supsect but it follows a page of BW vs soup getting heated and going nowhere.

Look at Puzzle Bobble. Vinyl(basically confirmed town after his census taker claim) proceeded to look at every wagon, regardless of the time of day, and slapped his vote right on regardless of the situation. I can also say I'm one of the best at getting vinylscum as opposed to vinyl town.

it's this sort of 'connections case' i strongly dislike. for instance, if you thought the post was weird from vinyl at the time why didn't you ask him about it then?

At the time we were focused on getting badwolf lynched over BSP, because we believed that he was more scummy than BSP or most any of the other candidates. The connection glimpser also came on me rereading for connections to BW.

secondly, and more importantly. let's say you want to make a BW/Vinyl connections case. how long does it take to read all 20 of vinyl's posts? because you stumble across this gem:


now maybe this is a weird/fake interaction with the BW slot, idk. it could just read as though he's sick of BW *****ing. but whatever. my point is that if you were looking for a Vinyl > BW connection, THIS is it. and this post completely undermines the stance WATT did take. I was going to bring this post up before the vinyl lynch happened, but as it happened i didn't have time before the hammer came down.

We didn't bring that quote up, IR did.

WATT is a mixed bag in the sense that initially I liked his efforts in progressing the game, however I don't think he's taken exceptionally firm stances on his own and has tended to just "go with the crowd" in a lot of instances. An example of this was the BSP wagon, where despite having plenty of opportunity to get on him earlier if he did find him scummy, his vote was #6 and felt a bit tacked on.

Dietz did an ISO at that point and found him scummy enough to vote. This was before we started hard scumreading badwolf.

I do like how he posts frequently and asks plenty of questions, however none of his posts really slap me in the face with town direction or intent. He asks for lots of reads but none of his play has been especially memorable to me, which is odd because of how active his slot has been. It definitely feels as if he's sitting back and trying to avoid taking hard stances without prior approval, and instead asking other people for their reads first.

As in, the total approval of our hydra?[wrt bold]. We've put out the stances we feel most comfortable about, and have given more when asked of us. Dunno why not putting out less confident reads is scummy.

It's a very "safe" style in the sense that he's making his presence known, but without trying to lead or get into strong engagements. I honestly can't think back to any event in the game and think "oh yeah, WATT was responsible for this!" Truth be told, this can be said about a lot of players, but none with the activity and presence that WATT has had.

We were the major one besides soup pushing Badwolf. I pushed vinyl after the modkill yesterday and he got lynched as a result. I dunno how that doesn't count as leading.

Rajam raises a good point here that he has been slow to take stances and generally waits for others to give them first. I don't think WATT addressed this but it's a fair point in that he's playing incredibly passive despite being very active.

Addressed before.

I also believe that there's a strong possibility that he was bussing BW:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15122364&postcount=534

Before BW openly said he was scum, WATT's only real opinion of BW was that he shouldn't be so confident about his RadFic read. And then he's literally like:



To me it's possible that WATT panicked over BW calling himself scum in thread and decided to go into full bus mode.

Badwolf wasn't that scummy before his big tirade with soup. Calling himself scum wasn't a part of that read and if we had factored it in would have probably offset some of the scumread towards him.

Look at these interactions. Is BW losing his **** and going all aggro mode towards WATT? Nope. This is weird to me because WATT literally said "just read soup vs badwolf vote: badwolf."

That was me having read the exchange while Dietz was doing otherwise(i was also on a 3ds at the time so not like i was gonna throw a wall out there on the subject.)

It just all feels very forced to me. Both players are saying vague things about the other, accompanied by vague follow up questions like "what are your town/scum picks?"

The town/scum picks question was getting badwolf to answer soup's question as BW seemed to be actually answering our questions as opposed to just saying "lolnopesoup"

Quoted and bolded for emphasis. He tells WATT that he needs to start "caring". What does this even mean? That because WATT is voting him he doesn't care? Contrast this to what he says to Soup and PJB who are apparently the two dumbest people to ever play the game of mafia… and again, this reads as incredibly fake and forced to me.

That "you should start caring" may have been a result of my being somewhat of an ******* while pushing him in that particular exchange

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Ya know, I didn't really understand the whole WATT hate situation before. Maybe the fact that he was active, and seemed like he was pushing BW alongside me, blinded me. Also Rajam just kind of stating vague things like "Watt has no intent or stances" felt like forced content to me. I guess he just knew what he was talking about better than I did. I'd also be lying if I said I didn't skim a word of it.

After reading what vanderzant pointed out with specific examples, like BW blowing up on me+soup but not watt, I can see something there. I may have to look back over everything rajam was trying to say that went over my head, to see if I agree with it now.

this is reminding me of my scum play in skies of arcadia, when I was trying to scumread JTB but marshy was like "he's obvtown fool" so one player's read prompted me to change my own.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Consider replacing in, if it's OK with Ryu. At least I wouldn't have to read up and could jump right in.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

i ate too many biscuits

The connection glimpser also came on me rereading for connections to BW.

We didn't bring that quote up, IR did.

the **** am I reading? which quote?

correct me if i'm wrong, but you were clearly the one to bring up #552/3 from Vinyl after the BW modkill yesterDay, and at that time no-one mentioned the #648 that I just brought up.

Look at Puzzle Bobble. Vinyl(basically confirmed town after his census taker claim) proceeded to look at every wagon, regardless of the time of day, and slapped his vote right on regardless of the situation. I can also say I'm one of the best at getting vinylscum as opposed to vinyl town.

And don't give me this.
tell me why would Vinyl, in THIS game, want to slap a vote on every waggon, where, from what both #552 (supporting IR, who's notably BSP > BW) and #648 suggest, he's more than happy to be voting BSP? You can't just say 'townVinyl plays like X' when you're comparing two situations unless they're similar to one another.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

^last paragraph (tell me why...) is rhetorical and doesn't need answering

 

[vanderzant]

Soup truth be told I read toDays events pretty quickly as I was very keen to finish my read. Right now I have two 9 and 6 year olds running around my house so ill have another look tonight.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

@Vanz: u srs bro?

I'll give you paranoia about us offing BW as a normal thing in mafia, but don't go into the whole "Idk if he's done things" waffling too. We already killed a scum and got reads on most of the players in this game, most of which people have been agreeing with eventually. Don't knock our methods as "idk maybe they ask questions" when it gets us results. We already have a solid direction to go in today: Kary/Nabe/Gangstalicious. If it was purely my choice I'd have us kill off Kary, then if he flips indy/town we go Gangsta. If he flips mafia we go Nabe. Don't make me have to fight off you coming in with conspiracy theories and have to dissuade you before I go on Christmas vacation.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I'll look for a replacement later tonight.

Yeah, it'd be nice if we had a full cast for Toonami Revolving Door Mafia again.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

@Vanz: u srs bro?

I'll give you paranoia about us offing BW as a normal thing in mafia, but don't go into the whole "Idk if he's done things" waffling too. We already killed a scum and got reads on most of the players in this game, most of which people have been agreeing with eventually. Don't knock our methods as "idk maybe they ask questions" when it gets us results. We already have a solid direction to go in today: Kary/Nabe/Gangstalicious. If it was purely my choice I'd have us kill off Kary, then if he flips indy/town we go Gangsta. If he flips mafia we go Nabe. Don't make me have to fight off you coming in with conspiracy theories and have to dissuade you before I go on Christmas vacation.

so bad. please be scum.

please; it's the time for giving.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

#334: Not a fan of Gangsta's comments. Odd mention of BW's 95% confidence, could be scum distancing. Town reads on WATT and IR are odd, gives no read on Soup or RadFic which is also odd.

Safe is the word you're looking for. Gangsta's play has been nothing but.

Rajam starts posting some content. I can see where he's is coming from with his WATT read.

Ok, where was he coming from at that point. I'm fairly sure most people in the game who aren't on our scum-list (Kary) would agree that it wasn't ever substantiated and was overall extremely weak.

WATT is a mixed bag in the sense that initially I liked his efforts in progressing the game, however I don't think he's taken exceptionally firm stances on his own and has tended to just "go with the crowd" in a lot of instances. An example of this was the BSP wagon, where despite having plenty of opportunity to get on him earlier if he did find him scummy, his vote was #6 and felt a bit tacked on.

I do like how he posts frequently and asks plenty of questions, however none of his posts really slap me in the face with town direction or intent. He asks for lots of reads but none of his play has been especially memorable to me, which is odd because of how active his slot has been. It definitely feels as if he's sitting back and trying to avoid taking hard stances without prior approval, and instead asking other people for their reads first.

It's a very "safe" style in the sense that he's making his presence known, but without trying to lead or get into strong engagements. I honestly can't think back to any event in the game and think "oh yeah, WATT was responsible for this!" Truth be told, this can be said about a lot of players, but none with the activity and presence that WATT has had.

I think being vote #6 on BSP was a very justified position considering it took much deliberation between our heads to come to the conclusion we'd see where it was going over BW at the time, and we did not pursue his lynch any further and now read him favorably after further interaction.

So you wouldn't attribute the BW lynch to us? I'm honestly insulted if that's what you think happened this game. We play the game slow and questioning, but it's getting results (and so far correct ones), I'm not sure why you have a problem with that. If you're concerned you can't think of something memorable and won't take "We killed Badwolf and Vinyl, the only two lynches in this game" as an answer, I'd challenge you instead to list a player who has had more influence on this game than us so far, and who wasn't PJB or Joey echoing our thoughts. Spoilers: that list is blank. (or at very best has IR crossed off with a big *whoops* penciled in)

As for the rest of that paragraph wrt you agreeing with Rajam, I sincerely apologize for taking the time and effort required to actually scum-hunt correctly and give us a confirmed and another likely scum flip instead of just barking out the first thing that comes to mind like Kevmo and IR did D1.

To me it's possible that WATT panicked over BW calling himself scum in thread and decided to go into full bus mode.

Seriously? So you've got us as #2 because something was merely possible? Nevermind the fact we were already on BW, already pushing him to die, and him claiming scum didn't make either of our heads change anything in our push but laugh at how bad he was at being motivated to play in QT.

Nah, I'm still here for like 2 seconds. I like how you're getting pissed about this now tho... That was like 3 days ago? Why are you mentioning it now? And why all the salt?

Because it's still important, and you still haven't addressed it. It's IMO blatant scum intent and I don't intend to let you get away with it just because we're a hydra.

So will you give us your reasoning for your top scum and town picks now? (and maybe an explanation for why you didn't want to before?)

Look at these interactions. Is BW losing his **** and going all aggro mode towards WATT? Nope. This is weird to me because WATT literally said "just read soup vs badwolf vote: badwolf."

Put yourself in Badwolf's shoes and pretend you're scum… wouldn't someone just climbing onto the wagon like that with no reasoning frustrate the hell out of you?

I know I'd be pissed.

It just all feels very forced to me. Both players are saying vague things about the other, accompanied by vague follow up questions like "why are you mentioning it now" and "what are your town/scum picks?"

So you simply can't even see that Badwolf here is actively trying to provoke us into the same kind of conflict in these quotes and we simply aren't taking the bait? We don't need to go aggro on BW to get him to crumple and die, PJB and Soup are doing that for us. Instead we pulled out the calm and collected logical arguments to seal his fate. AtL > AtE, I'm sure Badwolf would have loved it if we had reduced ourselves to just shouting with him.

The interactions between us and BW you've got are way too reachy. You're literally calling our slot possible scum because we managed not to make someone screaming mad by playing the good cop to Soup and PJB's bad while we grilled him, and instead only managed passive aggressive "y u no" mad. Him pandering to us like a lost soul is the tell of a desperate player about to be lynched, not a bussed one. If you can look me in the eye and say you think the BW wagon would have gone through without us I'll let you cling to that paranoia, but I'm not going to let you just rank us as scum pick #2 when we feel like we've got scum this game by the nads and let the game get off track because of it.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

so bad. please be scum.

please; it's the time for giving.

I love that you can't even take the time to point out why any of your coloring makes sense or amounts to auto-scum reads. It only makes reading ScumKary easier than it needs to be.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I'm serious, I want you to come back here and explain out what you think you meant by coloring random words of my paragraph and going "yup scum". Don't finger paint my posts like a four year old and hope it gets you off the lynch hook, actually do your work if you want to be taken seriously and not lynched like the Indy I'm currently betting you are.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

EBWOP:

@Vanz: "Nevermind the fact we were already on BW, already pushing him to die" Hmm, I'm not sure if this was overtly true in thread or not at the time. I know it was in QT, but I'm no longer confident it was strictly thread accurate. I'll retract this for now until I can verify that's actually what we did that long ago so scum doesn't get extra fuel to push a mislynch if I'm wrong about how much we had said in thread at that point.

 

[Rajam]

Vote Kary

Rajam do the same bro bro :D

vote: Kary

 

[Wots All This Then?]

EBWOP2.0: K, checked, we weren't asking for him to die till we voted him. But had been questioning him with accusatory "oh really?" points as scum in our eyes no later than page 11 based on a quick skim of early game.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

vote: Kary

I support this message.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Anomandaris_Rake replaces BSP

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vote count will be incoming.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Vote: Rake

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

dear lord, what have i got myself into

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

So let's get straight to this eh ?

Firstly and most importantly , my interests today are Kary and PJB, for reasons i'll outline / question in coming posts, I'm not crazy about WATTs' defence to vand, but i remember Orbo's defence to me in the newbie where i ML'd him and it looks similar (i can't be more specific than this right now :/ ) i don't like gangsta licious as well,

My town-reads are as follows and in no particular order :

Soup

yep, that;s it , gut is saying Mass Effect Soup on this, BSP seeing it is hella ganky but what can you do.

I'm comfortable putting vand as null town as well as Joey, for vand i liked his wall towards WATT, even though some of it echoed Rajam. For joey it falls to his overall play reminding me of soups newbie on many fronts, i can go in depth later if people like, but i'm more interested in floating my scum reads out there to begin with.

i'm actually okay with WATT overall, but he;s swung back and forth for me during my read and a small part of me is salty from Mass Effect where i got played pretty hard by my own meta on JD, even though towards the end i started to have doubts.

Rajam is a nul, his few posts have been sparse and the one breath of fresh air was his WATT read, i'd like to see more from him though.

Kevmo is off to me, i don't know if its the attitude or what but some of his posts just leave me going "..."

If i missed someone that means they are flat null.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

*not seeing it

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

@Vanz: u srs bro?

I'll give you paranoia about us offing BW as a normal thing in mafia, but don't go into the whole "Idk if he's done things" waffling too. We already killed a scum and got reads on most of the players in this game, most of which people have been agreeing with eventually. Don't knock our methods as "idk maybe they ask questions" when it gets us results. We already have a solid direction to go in today: Kary/Nabe/Gangstalicious. If it was purely my choice I'd have us kill off Kary, then if he flips indy/town we go Gangsta. If he flips mafia we go Nabe. Don't make me have to fight off you coming in with conspiracy theories and have to dissuade you before I go on Christmas vacation.

One of you can talk to me about Gangsta, I'll have you know you not liking J is making me very happy on so many levels idonteven.

<3 Swissai :D

WATT, you've spent most of your time asking other people for reads but you don't show any real direction. First you hop BSP, then you hop BW, without any particular explanation, and apparently you don't mind which goes. You really don't like me being inactive, you're looking at Vinyl of all people on a BW scumflip (but not pushing him now). Your #834

is full of weak, reachy reasoning to be on a waggon, and when put under the slightest pressure you look defensive;
i'm very happy with this vote all things considered. if you disagree with it please do offer me an alternative, i'm interested to hear what you want to push.

Kary, are you split pushing here , or am i misreading your intent , it seems like you want to make a go at RF, but it seems forced, its like RF is "just there for you" , i get this feeling more than once, what has your prodding on him achieved, do you have a set newer read based off vand replacing in ? Why or why not ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

BW isn't scum. How many times do we have to say this? He has been put in a bad situation and is merely struggling to get out because of all the pressure that's being put on him. It's not hard to understand.

@IR - I need you to do 3 perfect little things for me: 1. Cut your ego and get off your armchair. 2. Stop criticizing and belittling everyone. 3. Start actually scum hunting and playing the game. We don't like your attitude and once we get that X-factor out of the way you could prove yourself to be helpful.

@Soup - Give 3 people you would vote for and state why.

This is something i don't like about your slot , you just say "Hey, these 2 are town, know why, there reaction to pressure" Well hey that's great and all , but why was BW's reaction so telling to you at that time, how does his mafia flip effect your confidence in your other reads, i know you still think my slot is town but why was my defense so telling to you , were the people on it picking an easy target ? If so, who on my wagon would you attribute that to ?

I'm going to tell you i don't find your content legit so far, brolaf.

Whenever i read something of yours, i get the aloof sense i got scum reading Inferno in FF8, tack on your questions are consistently behind or have obvious to see answers, I want you to go in depth on your reads , I've seen you say alot of "I agree" and it's the type of safety net play i saw in FF8.

With BWScum in mind, give me your short list of scum, have you talked to J yet on it ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

I'm not seeing any town intent. I'm just seeing 'hey X, what's your read on Y?' which is such lackluster scumhunting. Then there's the other stuff I mentioned.



I saw signs of town intent from RadFic, then they disappeared. I will reserve judgment for now.

I might have missed it , but vand thoughts ?

IR I don't care for as a slot, but they're probably town based on how invested in having a dumb argument they seem to be.


Ok well given my play this game does not remind me of my play that game, you ought to elaborate on the similarity in case I or anyone else get the impression you're spreading around low level dislike.
Also since when were you trying to get a read on my slot? I just recall you saying 'sort it out Kary' at one point, that was about it.


did you find any scum intent?
Because if I saw a player who generally disliked being pressured giving up on/ignoring a game after receiving early pressure, i wouldn't just assume they were scum.


see above, no it doesn't.



ewww

this looks like a terrible play if you're town. i don't know how you can be so confident, and I don't know why if you're town you'd put yourself in the firing line. Just reads like you trying to rush the lynch. do not like.

Why was it terrible at this time over dumbtown ? Confidence is something a townie should have on reads amirite ? How else can you have people follow your ideas without creating a convincing argument based on your beliefs ? You don't have to answer these as many are more rhetoric commentary on things i disagree with on from a pro-town stand point

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

well **** i might actually contribute to a discussion

i disliked gangsta up until the post i quoted earlier where J said both bsp and bw were town.
would scumJ make that post, and if so, how accurate is it?

i'm inclined to think that gangsta is subsequently town purely from that stance. as scum it'd be too easy to hop one waggon or the other at this point (and i doubt he's trying to save both his scumbuddies) or even do nothing. scumJ could be fishing for town points but it seems unnecessary at this stage in the game to put yourself in the spotlight by taking such a stance.

so, uh, discuss.

So, uh this feels forced.

ScumJ would do whatever it takes to win , that question is pointless, you made your point on gangsta clear, how does that one stance so wildly swing you ? Your "i'm inclined to think he's town" , again, i feel like you forced that out , maybe to gauge reactions ? Close Y/N ?

What's to stop him from saving one scum mate, killing off one townie or visa versa ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

We re-evaluate our reads, look at the NK, get any disconnections from the flips, and move on from there

You made a tri-head today of your lynch picks, How has your read on my slot changed in lue of Vand's defense on me , how do you read his it as it relates to RF's last read on my slot (which was scummy IIRC, correct me if i'm wrong, it's late and League is calling )

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

His claim also makes us more inclined to believe that he's town.
:

do better, explain why my role sells yui, is it conjunctive with your belief of a bad situation and a bad reaction on BSP's part, does the timing of my claim make it more or less believable to you ? i know you love thinking I'm a indy, and that seems to be the swirling opinion as of late , what do you think of Rake so far (take BSP out of the equation )

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

hiinteresting

why, because i was your next NK ?

:falconbrawl:

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Vandy and WATT, i'd like for you to join me on my about to occur GangstaLicious, which im sure i've misspelt , irregardless , i think this is where we need to be.

Do you agree he should be the first priority ?

I'll tell you i don't find Nabe appetizing at this point , his vote on me is meh and it could be place holder, but then again he expressed an intrest in BSp so it could be follow up, i guess i'll wait on more from him.

Vote : Gangsta

Surely i can't be wrong about a hydra involving J twice.