Toon Links lack of the rest of the triforce.

[iRjOn]

Uair really?
I love its lag it goes through Airdodges

Khai yea I wanna disscuss ways to get around his weaknesses after we all come to a close agreement. Like Marth boards almost all Marths agree on his weaknesses.

I'll post my thoughts on his weakness later I just woke up.
Kinda tried O.<

 

[ImpactAR]

Toon Link is really just an updated version Young Link from Melee. YL in Melee had the spiking property, but the time frame was VERY limited. Watch any good YL or Link Melee player and they'll occasionally toss out a Dair because it's useful that you can hover it. The dive limits TL's Dair.

The use of the wind effect described above is impractical...

The use for it for teams is also impractical. I don't see your opponents giving you space to breath. In that case, I say if you have a bomb in hand go for the save, if not your partner is SOL.

Actually I think TL's Nair is his best gimp move. Fair doesn't come out fast enough and Bair has more vertical range than horizontal. Both hits very vertical though I can't nag on the Fair that much because it hits probably as hard horizontal. Bair is good for stage spikes, but Nair is as well. Nair also hits harder in case you don't get the perfect bounce.

Nair has a better horizontal knock back and that's what you want. Swing forward and back quickly makes it hard to avoid danger. If you get hit by the front part than you get knocked further out. If you get hit by the back you are at risk of a stage spike. A drop down Nair followed by a SJ iNair is more likely to connect and harder to avoid than a drop down Bair followed by a SJ iBair.

 

[oOJaseOo]

Impractical? yes, still an option that they wont see coming? yes tho hard to pull off and rlly only works with characters whose specials put them in free fall and who slide/glide/grate there face across the floor (wonder if it would work for MK? doubt it tho nothing ever does *sighs*).

 

[copacetic]

Actually the wind effect on the d-air works decently against an Ike. Ike's tend to jab a lot, so if they try to punish a missed d-air with a jab and it pushes them off the edge, an offstage n-air is very difficult for Ike to recover from. Won't work often (maybe once every ten matches if you're lucky)

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yes, nair works for gimping. In teams TL isnt bad when theyre at fallspecial bair and bombs help them a lot. Dont use dair to bring them back ever. X_X That's just a bad idea.

 

[copacetic]

the point was that d-air quickly gets you down to a falling teammate and hits them vertically. you can't really miss with it if you practice it, and if an enemy jumps in the way they'll get spiked. If you're close enough for a b-air its better, and if you have a bomb in hand that's best, but d-air works if you're teammate is a bit too far for that and it'll hit them high enough to watch you're back when you recover. Don't use it if you don't want to but it's saved my friend dozens of times and we've both survived it every time

 

[TLMSheikant]

Bombs are safer. Think about it an opponent like mk can still watch u when u dair then gimp or edgehog after the bounce and then there's the risk of missing and u both losing the stock bcuz u got desperate and missed. :S Do it if it works for u I guess...

 

[iRjOn]

Forget dair uses back to Toon Links weakness guys
Mods have been strict lately dont want this closed.

I think these are Toon Links weakness.

- Hylian Shield
This is not that big a weakness but its basically what prevents him from going prone. His height makes the shield fail where its needed *coughspaciescoughfalcocoughfox* ooo man that was a bad one O.o.

- Blind spot
This is a big weakness the main Reason MK, Kirby, D3, Peach, and such are difficult. Its at an angle above Toon Link about where Olimars up-b goes. There are ways around this though. But it is still difficult to get around.

- Big Reliance on projectiles
Now I just couldn't find a way to word this but I dont mean he cant survive w/o them. Just the reason for ALL of his bad match ups are because hes out ranged, out camped, and they can near easily get around our projectiles. Its honestly the lagg Toon Link has on his projectile useage. His fastest projectile is his really his arrows. But its cool down even is little long, bow canceling can be punished.
The rang's startup lagg is just meh. Its catch lagg can be prevented but if you dont time an attack or action just right you'll have the catching animation which is annoying.

Hold up I'm not done getting on my computer in a min I'll finish there


Continuing:

Projectiles: Bombs are basically the ones hardest to punish :|
But they can be caught this is where Toon Link lack of a Glide toss is suposedly a prob but really nah its not why glide toss with bombs it would just make spacing more important than Jump cancel throw already does...
Useing them for other than throwing like droping them is kinda difficult.
It should just hav it kinda like snake except if you let go of b you drop it so you can pick it then thrown unless your in the air.
Down b should still be the comand but ehh just what I believe w/e

Really nothing else seems too much like a big problem
These are just my thoughts you guys seemto have pointed out some good ones too
When we come to an agreement apon his weakness I'll edit the OP and the we'll start disscussing ways around his weakness and I'll Post that stuff in the second post I saved.

But what do you all think of my weakness thoiughts?

 

[ImpactAR]

iRjOn,

I agree with you. Your thoughts on "Big reliance on projectiles" might be better put as "Lack of Range" where he need his projectiles to assist him.

I guess you're right about TL's projectiles being fairly slow. Bombs really are TL's fastest projectile when you have it out, but I guess you're factoring in the fact that you have to pull them out. I guess I'll wait until we come to a weakness conclusion and then I can talk about how to get around this.

The Hylian Shield isn't really a weakness. It's more of a perk. I mean Link and TL are the only ones that have them an at least it works on some projectiles while 95% of the cast doesn't even have this option. Plus as TL you're more likely to move around and have a bomb in hand to even think about using it's property.

I 100% agree with you on TL's "Blind Spot." I've always thought about where he can and can't hit/counter at. Slipped my mind to point this out.

You might want to make a simple list to see what we got so far. That way we can see what we have and what we are missing. I posted a lot and long...I know you may miss some of what I say.

 

[iRjOn]

Yea khai the hylian shield well my point i never really stated only reason its a flaw is because going prone gives you alot more options the the hylian shield does only time i ever use it is against Lucario
Link because of his height its more useful I think he blocks falcos lazer

But yea its not really that big a prob I shouldn't have put it lol
but erm yea the bomb having to be pulled out is what i'm was talking about

Yea I'll read back and look and see the ones said the most and put them in the OP

 

[TLMarth]

Good points Iron

Before you charge in, take a bomb out.

So.... blind spot. You say n front of you. That means behind is not a problem. Therefore you must turn around and they will be behing you.


On TL's projectiles, we need to be more creative.
I think arrows are limited to quickdraw, and a bit of charging mindgames (lol mindgames)
Boomerang and bomb are his best tools I think, bombs because they are so quick they can lead into lots of things, together they put on a lot of pressure

 

[iRjOn]

TLMarth nice arguement

But think Olimars upb the pikmin chain above you not distance the angle

Run away
true thats always an options when being attacked or something
Fair
too slow against people that can capitilize on it MK, Peach and such
Bair
The blind spots in front of you. you just didn't under stand its kool
Utilt
Wont reach far enough
Usmash
wont reach and can be seriously punished
boomerang
too slow

what are you taking about before you charge in take out a bomb? o.O lol


Updated the OP

 

[TLMarth]

I edited my post to say
turn around

And I meant be prepared with your bomb before you get close

by reliance on projectiles, you mean bad close up game?

 

[iRjOn]

Oh well still you probally wont have time to recact MK will have definately hit you before your bair comes out or you turn around
But yes the blind spot is in front only
If you turn around it basiclly goes away cause of bair though
So you are right on the turn around part of it

I guess that bomb thing is ok?

no Toon Link's close range is ok but by reliance on projectiles I mean that he realizes heavyly on projectiles He is a campy character but his camp game has flaws.
Falcos Camp game is the best in the game i'm serious and you all kno how heavily he realize on his lazor.

 

[ImpactAR]

Ummm...I'm not sure I agree on the style you say TL is. Campy? Well I can see that I just don't agree too much with it.

On topic, I don't think "blind spot" is a good way to put it. "Weak spots" may be a better way of putting it because technically TL can reach these spots given the time and space. If these spots would be his upper front AND directly below him.

Also, TL's Bair doesn't have great side range. Most of his range of the Bair extends to his upper back side. That's why it's a good juggler.

Here's my summary of TL's Weaknesses.

• Weak combat spots directly below and upper front.
• TL has weak combo finishing options.
• No real safe offensive KO option.
• Range, hit stun, and shield stun attacks don't blend well.
• Risky grab with poor combat potential.
• Lightweight.

 

[iRjOn]

Khai seriously?
You dont have to play him Campy but Toon Link is a campy character come on Khai.

Weak Spot yea thats better thanx ^_^
Toon Link doesn't have a weak spot below him...>_>
No character match ups goal is to get us in the air and Juggle us. Why because we has enough options so we dont have trouble getting to the ground...
If we can't be effectively juggled by MK I'm afraid we dont have a weak spot below us Khai.
Think about it for a min.
True stuff about bair
I agree with your weaknesses mostly.
Except Lightness...
:\
Idk its not really a weakness presay. But then again it is so meh.

Good stuff good stuff

 

[ImpactAR]

He cannot hold is ground to claim that he's a camper. Or at least a really good one. You need to move as TL and mix your attacks. If anything TL is a spammer. Falco can spam lasers and zoom to the other side. Link can spam better too and have fairly good attacks with range to push back. Pit's arrows are overall fast, he has a reflector, and decent smashes for defense.

We're sort of on the same page. I say that TL have a weak spot directly below him, but you disagree because TL has options. However, you say that TL have a projectile weakness do to speed and factoring in that the bomb needs time to be pulled out. So why aren't we considering this in case TL is being attacked from below? IMO we should list this as a weak spot and then discuss the options to cover this. I agree TL has the options to avoid punishment, but it doesn't require a little set up.

If lightness isn't considered a weakness than MK doesn't have any weaknesses...

 

[iRjOn]

You dont have to stay still to camp
:\

But its not considered cause nothing can truely stop our dair.
In order to have a weakness below you you must be easily juggled.
Rob and Marth are big examples.
Toon Link isn't truelly bothered when coming down because of his aireal mobility and his dair strikes fear into people.
And if you are at stage top the weakness in projectiles is irrelavent.
Y are you worried about projectiles other than bombs just get to the ground...
His bombs pull out lagg is near nullified in the air but it stops your actions.
Thats why I mentioned it.
When mentioning his projectie flaws I was talking for their flaws in camping. Which they are used for mostly.

Think for a min. thats one of MK's weaknesses not Toon Link.
Toon Links lightness I personally dont mind it Marths lighter >_>
but idc doesn't really matter to me...
It can be a weakness if you wish.

 

[ImpactAR]

IMO I think we're on the same page, but our definition of "camping" is different. I think camping requires holding your ground (not stay still) and spam with projectiles and what not for a small period of time before moving on. I think as TL you need to move around and throw out a mix of attacks which makes him spammy, but not a camper. It could be that our styles is different.

Anyways, I'm going to point out that the situation you're assuming is TL gets knocked up high or something. I'm not referring to this situation. I stated if TL is given the space and time he will be able to create counters.

IMO TL's weakness from below is directly below. I'm assuming the situation where he's NOT given time to react. Dair comes out at a decent speed it's not quick enough to beat out most Uairs.

For example, if a Ganon throws TL down at 0% he can get a free jab in. If a Ganon throws a Pit down, Pit can swing a Dair or even a Nair to stop it. Being on a platform right under your opponent is another good example. You can't drop down attack quick. These are the situations I'm talking about.

Lightness...eh. Weakness or not we wouldn't be able to "discuss" it. Every characters' goal is to do damage and avoid damage. I think for our topic we're trying to discuss weaknesses in TL's gameplay. We can agree to disagree here, right?

 

[iRjOn]

Ehh i understand where your coming from on camping.

I see what you mean now.
But your thinking too stituational that weakness cant truely be capitilized on except a few moments.
Ganon's dthrow just jump...
or something not to say thats a solid answer but yea.
When saying a weakness is there think of can the character be juggled easily or do they have options as limited as Rob or Marth, yes I keep going back to them cause they are the easiest example.
Because from the way you are sounding atm Pikachu, Kirby, and Olimar would have a weakness below. Not so much Kirby as Pika but see what I mean?

Now Toon Link is limited on what he can do below him. But its not easily exploted.
Platforms not being able to drop through and attack below is a prob but again options still are good enough to not consider him weak in it.

But I see what you mean Khai good stuff man good stuff.


Ehh yup on the light wieght thing.

 

[ImpactAR]

Well, we're on the same page here. hehe But when you're pointing out "weak points" I thought you meant areas where TL will have trouble attacking (specifically combat-wise). The situations I'm using as an example are when I'm saying TL can't do anything to counter. "Jump" is the answer to that. I thought we're waiting until we, for the most part, agree on TL's weakness and then we would discuss how to cover them up.

 

[Bomber7]

Weaknesses:

Remix:
Projectlists like myself eventually get inflexable after a while and predictability is out down fall. Also the Meele's Samus stage is THE absolute worst place to be if you are a TL.

To be honest I mainly see the problem in our predictability. Really, if you go read our guide you will see how about i'd say 97% of our players play. Really out of any TL player, i'd expect the first move to be a SHDA or just to shoot arrows at me. theres only a handfull of guys like myself who play differently and yet I'm sure among our foe's its getting predictable... well for me it's lack of discipline, for ToonDitty it may be a different case.

The general statement of our predidcable playstyle I'm sure can break down into all sorts of categories, so I'll just leave it up to one of you to think of what that is exactly and then this discussion will continue.

 

[urdailywater]

Bomber7 hit the nail on the head. I don't see too many weaknesses in TL.

His weight, I mean many other characters who are top tier (meta knight) have to deal with that. Not much of a weakness if you can avoid getting hit or stall the opponent (and this IS toon link)

I survive high percents, so I weight isn't a big concern to me.
Mainly the predictability and our killing potential.
Predictability: Well, pretty much because not many people mix and match these days.. and sometimes tl doesn't have any other choice. Especially against characters like Olimar where your only effective moves are nair, zair, and arrow. >.>

His killing potential is okay, not the best but its okay. You have to rack damage fast.

 

[Bomber7]

Subconsciously when people comment on my matches and tell me I should have use "this" move or "that" move, I just say to myself, they obviusly dont realize TL doesnt have too many killing capabilities, they tell me that I shouldnt be throwing bombs when they are past like 110% (which I know they are right to an extent). the killing moves of TL are quite predictable. so if you got a highly analytical opponent and can see what you would have to do to kill them, good luck cuz they will just counter you. Trust me, I have trouble killing as TL, thats why I try to set up combos with bombs in hopes of a spit second hitstun. at least if it works I can get a decent kill.

 

[Artmastercorey]

For me, when it comes to TL, i have a huge issue with the speed of all his attacks. Moves like bair are fast, but against characters that are really fast like sonic toe to toe get beaten. By the time I jump to use it, he's already half way done with his aerial attack. Also... i think someone already mentioned the slow startup of his projectiles...the slight 1 or 2 seconds to shot an arrow or throw a boomerange, or even try to jump to do zair, sonic ( i have trouble with sonic as u can see lol) has already ran acros the level and attacked you. It almost seems like the only solution for most his problems is the retreat while attacking method. For TL's speed range and priority issues against certain characters *cough kirby* *cough sonic* running while spamming seems to be the only way but im sure there are other possibilities.

 

[Bomber7]

you sure arrow canceling couldnt help you the least bit or spot dodge and dowqn smashing?

 

[iRjOn]

Well, we're on the same page here. hehe But when you're pointing out "weak points" I thought you meant areas where TL will have trouble attacking (specifically combat-wise). The situations I'm using as an example are when I'm saying TL can't do anything to counter. "Jump" is the answer to that. I thought we're waiting until we, for the most part, agree on TL's weakness and then we would discuss how to cover them up.

lol
XD
Yea guess i was kinda broad on that.
Well Yea I'll clear that up later but lets stick to large expliotable weaknesses atm
lol your a kool guy Khai lol

Weaknesses:

Remix:
Projectlists like myself eventually get inflexable after a while and predictability is out down fall. Also the Meele's Samus stage is THE absolute worst place to be if you are a TL.

To be honest I mainly see the problem in our predictability. Really, if you go read our guide you will see how about i'd say 97% of our players play. Really out of any TL player, i'd expect the first move to be a SHDA or just to shoot arrows at me. theres only a handfull of guys like myself who play differently and yet I'm sure among our foe's its getting predictable... well for me it's lack of discipline, for ToonDitty it may be a different case.

The general statement of our predidcable playstyle I'm sure can break down into all sorts of categories, so I'll just leave it up to one of you to think of what that is exactly and then this discussion will continue.

Bomber7 hit the nail on the head. I don't see too many weaknesses in TL.

His weight, I mean many other characters who are top tier (meta knight) have to deal with that. Not much of a weakness if you can avoid getting hit or stall the opponent (and this IS toon link)

I survive high percents, so I weight isn't a big concern to me.
Mainly the predictability and our killing potential.
Predictability: Well, pretty much because not many people mix and match these days.. and sometimes tl doesn't have any other choice. Especially against characters like Olimar where your only effective moves are nair, zair, and arrow. >.>

His killing potential is okay, not the best but its okay. You have to rack damage fast.

Good stuff you 2 I'll be sure to read it over one more time later for now i'mma chill.

 

[iRjOn]

Ehh double post
:[

Artmas mind if I call you that?
Just learn how to out proritize or zair Sonic's predictable approaches.

Back on Subject
Lets start disscusing Why some people say [insert weakness here] from the list of the most said. I'll look and update If I find more.
But someone pick one idc and we'll disscuss.
From the list on the OP of most said weaknesses.

GOGOGO!

 

[Artmastercorey]

Ehh double post
:[

Artmas mind if I call you that?
Just learn how to out proritize or zair Sonic's predictable approaches.

Back on Subject
Lets start disscusing Why some people say [insert weakness here] from the list of the most said. I'll look and update If I find more.
But someone pick one idc and we'll disscuss.
From the list on the OP of most said weaknesses.

GOGOGO!

just call me art lol or corey, but yeah its not always easy against a good fast character, u wont be able to jump air dodge, and then zair in time like u would with medium to slow characters if your playing a smart opponent.

Im honestly not sure but i think a majority of the solutions to his problems are gonna be something like run away first and then do something from there.

 

[Zorro.cL]

I like TL's weight, it saves us from a lot of combos

 

[TLMarth]

Are You Zairing Without Air Dodge?!

Since my SHDA sucks, the first thing I do in a match is take out a bomb.
I limit arrows to arrow cancels.

I just use bombs, zair, a bit of boomerang and nair

 

[iRjOn]

Since we cant disscuss light wieght besides as far as me and Khai came up to just dont get hit o.O...

Lets disscuss why people say his grab game is a weakness.

I personally say because its range doesn't match the ending lagg if missed look at Lucas >_>...its about the same.
Link deserves his ending lagg freakin claw shot...

His throws dont have enough damage or knock back none really setup for anything...
Except down throw but if they are smart they can get out of what you can do next time...

Those are my thoughts atm
:]

So now

GOGOGO

 

[vanderzant]

@irjon

I think the best way to understand why Tl's grab game is a weakness is by comparing it to TL's dair.

TL's dair is a powerful attack (and spike) but if you miss you get punished badly (especially if you miss while offstage).

TL's grab is no different. Most TL's don't (or at least they shouldn't) use his grab when they are at high percents because if they miss they risk losing a stock. This is similar to how TL loses a stock if he misses with dair. Both moves have really high risks for a smaller reward.

Finally, it is such a weakness not being able to utilize TL's grab game because shielding attacks + grabing is the bread and butter of punishing your opponents in brawl. Sure, you can nair/bair out of shield but a grab and throw is just more effective.

TL;DR: You get punished if you miss, so people don't use it. Which means TL lacks a (shield) grab game.

 

[Artmastercorey]

@irjon

Finally, it is such a weakness not being able to utilize TL's grab game because shielding attacks + grabing is the bread and butter of punishing your opponents in brawl.

.

Good point...actually do you ever find yourself being punished from someone elses mistakes? Like they miss, u try to shieldgrab but they grab u before u grab them lol. Like ness for example.

 

[TLMSheikant]

TL's grab game isnt as bad as u people make it out to be. U obviously cant spam it. I have a way to land a grab without fail on any character in the game. Cant say yet wait for new vids. And remember our grab punishes meta's dsmash. Thats a plus.

 

[Artmastercorey]

tl has a decent grab under certain situations and characters i think. But im interested to know what your technique is, jab jab grab doesnt always seem to work. Maybe boomerang grab? Anyway lol Cant wait for your video cuz if u know how to strengthen his grab game would be great for the community

 

[TLMarth]

Is it the arrow -> grab?

I think it's a weakness because it's laggy in the end, making it pretty much unusable. meaning he doesn't have an easy way to get through shields.


And also it doesn't really lead into anything, like you said.

 

[TLMSheikant]

If samus does it why cant we? I think its a good mixup and a good way to land a grab. Dont say its bad TLM without even trying it i'm trying to help TL's metagame develop. And I see potential in this.

 

[iRjOn]

TLMS Toon Links grab can never be absolute...
:\
Sadly It will always be punished if missed.
And grabbing MK and throwing him wont allow you to follow up so?
Just refresh moves but thats about all.

Samus has a faster startup and longer reach with abit less ending lagg.

The reach of hers and she can combo with her grabs.

Toon Link has no true grab follow ups...
:\

Sorry TLMS I usually would consider your thoughts but nothing can deny his grab game is really weak.
Marths is better for the love of all things holy...>_>.

But still indeed do share how to land a grab good move refresher right there.
Not knocking your idea just realize his grab game is fail sauce.

 

[TLMarth]

Is. It. Arrow -> grab?