• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Toon Links lack of the rest of the triforce.

iRjOn

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,610
Location
Drawing my imagination, in GA
TLM arrow has too much kool down so probally not but it doesn't matter
Back to why grab is a weakness
TLMS if you believe it is not a weakness your intitled to your opinion so post your thoughts why by all means.
There will be no flaming if there is it should (I advise this) be ignored.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
I kinda have to wonder... how predictable is our Dair now adays? I play Redson sometimes, now that he has finally picked up TL, I fight him and give him tips so he can be a good TL(unlike me cuz I'm a spaamy spammer lol), well he will use Dair and I wont see it coming, Hyrulian Royalty occasionally uses it off stage to try to get me, he usually fails but even so, I still dont see it coming. I think that the Dair should come back into our playstyle because after all, we preach not to use it. However it does have its use. I'm not saying spam it but in certain situations when a good Dair combo is needed then by all means I;m for using it.
 

Bomber7

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
5,766
Location
Louisiana
Bomer that has nothing to do with grabs >.>...

But I preach dont use it off stage...
And dont spam on stage.
sorry. ^^' didnt see we were discussing the weakness in grabbing. I was just skimming through and that question popped up.
 

Disfunkshunal

Manners Maketh Man
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
5,864
Location
Planet Bomber
NNID
Disfunkshunal
3DS FC
1848-1876-3249
its true dair isnt a grab but it is an undeniable weekeness.

when you go offstage there is a 80% chance you're not coming back. i dont think preaching dair = devil is good, but rather we should say to limit dair usage. if we find a way to control dair, our ability to kill would be better.

this is the closest we came
\

Ok I cannot stress how quick this whole move needs to be done. I mean there has to be no delay at any point otherwise you'll blow your head off before you can even spike. Other then that, it's quite simple.
First you need to get your opponent relatively near an edge then pull out a bomb and hold A, C-stick towards your opponent, quickly let go of the C-stick and tap A (we don't want any lag in the F-smash) then throw the bomb up (you may as well C-stick up to throw it) turn your back on your recovering opponent (bomb starts falling back down) jump up and catch it with bair (slight DI over the edge) instantly hit dair.
Full hop towards your opponent, throw a boomerang diagonally down (Edit, The boomerang throw is a tilt throw) straight away but make sure you miss them. You want the boomerang to come down behind them, then you fall back down towards them and hit them with either Nair or Zair (I'll go into the differences later) this will knock them directly into the returning boomerang and give you loads of time to hit them again for a three hit combo. Ok, other then the damage that Nair and Zair do there is also the knock back. I tested this on Mario and Nair worked until about 60% but Zair worked until around 110%, perfect for an easy U-smash kill.

Now, I noticed there is little if no difference in the way the boomerang returns even if it doesn't touch the ground. This means you can use it even if your opponent is close to the edge. This move is awesome by itself but, I see big potential if we combine this with the safe spike to make the safe spike 3.0. It needs more testing and more time but so far this is the best option we have simply because it gives us so much time, time enough even to pull out a bomb and F-smash.

i personally havent found anything worth noting with grabs yet.
 

ImpactAR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
595
Location
South Carolina
We discussing TL's KO potential now, right? Here's my thoughts.

TL Up Smash has it all...except for range. And this really what hurts him. Let's look at the good properties. Good shield push back, good shield stun, good knock back. However, the simple lack of range makes it "decent." TL's hyphen smash is good, but the thing is you need to hyphen smash it to reach most of the time. The problem with hyphen smashing it is that you slide forward a bit and that throws all that shield push back and stun of the Up Smash out the door. If you're going to us an Up Smash you're need to really use it in two situations. First is to know when you have the time to hyphen smash and connect. Like after shielded smash. Second to attack your opponent with a grounded Up Smash where you can take advantage of the shield stun and push back if block, and here you need to control yourself and not get in the instinct of dashing.

Forward Smash...great KO power. Its un-freaking believable that they didn't create enough stun on the first part whether its shielded or not. It doesn't have that much range to anyways. When it's shielded I can't believe that they allow enough time to jab before the second part of it. When your opponent can even roll behind you and nullify the push back. Really this is only good when you're opponent is at the edge. Then you can try to push your opponent off with the first hit and land the second. Otherwise use rarely and randomly.

Down Smash is just not that good. First swing has poor shield push back and stun. Really it's connect or be punished. I honestly don't even use this because I see the Up Smash and Up Tilt to be safer. There is that incline kill you can try for though...

Up Tilt kills about the same percentage as Down Smash. Coming out just as fast, but recovering faster as well safer than Down Smash, too. I use this to punish rolls most of the time.

Up Air is such a nice KO move. But there's no way to set it up. You're tossing your opponent in the air and hopes he's dumb enough to be in vertical range. Smart players would know it's best not be be directly under TL.

Fair is another nice KO move. Again hard to set up. It takes a fair amount of time to come out, but has decent recover speed granted your in the air. I think there is some potential with this move if we can figure a way to connect it consistently.

Nair can kill as well. Mixing your game up can give you the chance to knock your opponent off the side due to the unknown DI. However, it's also a good offensive move. You really do use this move to build up damage so with the diminishing factor you're probably not always going to have this move at max KO power. Unless you come back from a stock. It's best to aim to hit for it and wish for the best, but don't count on it KOing.

In general TL's KO potential comes from punishing Either you're hyphen smashing laggy moves or punishing rolls. You can't toss out a move and hope for a connection and if it doesn't land than back of safely.

I'm pretty much set on all my thoughts on TL's KO options, except for one. I'm thinking of that Fair may have some potential. Bomb to Fair can work as a combo but you're pretty much react as if the bomb will connect. I'm looking into finding patterns that will work with the Fair.
 

iSpiN

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
357
Location
Nashville TN, US
Is Fsmash in advisable anymore? I watch Chip's TL vids and he doesn't use it :O

And I'm getting into habit of making my Spaced Fairs my kill moves.
 

TLMarth

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
611
Location
smashville
If he's using dair from high above, it's pretty predictable. Closer up, it's a bit harder.

On kill moves, Ftilt has a slightly better knockback trajectory than nair.

F smash is bad. Though I wonder if it's possible to try hitting with just the second hit? This might work especially well when the opponent is off stage.
Uair is good for platforms?

With mid-tier characters, more thought is required. We have to be careful. We have to be the better player.
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
3,168
Location
Puerto Rico
I rarely have trouble killing. And dont start with "theyre not good players" yadayadayada because they are. U just have to use teh mindgamez son. Outsmart ur freaking opponent, predict what they'll do and ull come out on top. It really isnt that hard :S. And I heard zair to usmash is my main kill move ^_^. Followed by uair. And ibomb usmash. Everything usmash.
 

iRjOn

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,610
Location
Drawing my imagination, in GA
TLMS lol the weakness is about the kill move being unsafe not how you dont have trouble killing.
I dont have too much trouble killing but the kill moves are still unsafe.

Low Range
His best kill move has low range.

Lagg
The lagg on kill moves with the most launch power is not worth it.
be back later I'll finish then
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
25,073
Switch FC
8132-9932-4710
Nair needs to gimp better.
Srsly.
 

ImpactAR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
595
Location
South Carolina
TLMSheikant,

I agree with your thoughts on Dair.

I will agree that the patterns you stated works, but you're assuming the set up connects. The truth is if you're playing against TL and in his KO range it's best to shield and avoid rolling and dodges. Because even if TL grabs you he has a poor grab game which cannot set up into kill moves. TL can't throw in any direction that would KO until ridiculously high percentages. The problem isn't really being able to KO, it's being able to connect an KO.

Uair on platform before your opponent lands on it works well because then you can catch him or her on the landing frames. But if your opponent is already on the platform it's best to just Fair and try to push the off and punish that since you have faster recovery after Fair. Cause if you do an Uair and it's block you'll be stuck in that position.

For the question about the Fsmash being viable or not. It's really powerful so using it very seldom is understandable. In overall it's best not to use it unless your opponent is near an edge do you can push him off wither he shields or not and get him with the second part.

sasukebowser,

If we can only find away to alter the Nair. So it has power of the Fair. So it has the range of the disjointed hit box of the Uair. The auto recovery of the Bair. Maybe the spiking property of the Dair. Then, then we can be high tier. Cause even then it won't be as broken as MK, Snake's Tilts, DDD and Falco's CG, G&W IASA frames. hehe
 

TLMarth

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
611
Location
smashville
Just as mindgames do not apply to match up discussions, so they do not apply to weakness solving.

Well it's just that if you had mindgames you wouldn't really need to be talking that much about solving weaknesses
 

chaos11011

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 7, 2008
Messages
1,002
Location
MA
NNID
IDSeason
-no CG
-bad rolls and grabs
-Dair sucks
-"if were are not in the air the match up becomes unfair" (that means we suck on land cause were bird warriors (i made quote))
-NO KILLING MOVES THAT ARE UNPREDICABLE (sorry for caps)
-Supa light
-Camping sucks when you are against reflecting opponent
-most of the time we need to duck to use our sheild ( the wood one)


thats all I have for now

I fixed the last too bullets
 

ImpactAR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
595
Location
South Carolina
Alright, I got a new pattern for you guys to try out! I've been messing with the Fair and trying to find some ways to set it up while being some what safe. Here's what I found.

TL's strong point is really directly in front of him due mostly to Bombs, Nair, and Zair. So with a Bomb in hand. Try these patterns to try to swing a random Fair at them.
  • Bomb Throw Forward
  • Dash
  • Short Hop iFair
  • DI Away
  • You can also Second Jump away, Arrow Cancel, or Nair with the DI
In this case you're using a bomb to discourage your opponent from coming in at you. Dashing with an iFair right after the bomb make use of the bomb by helping making it safer in the beginning animation of the Fair. DI Back you have some counter options. Remember with JCT you have some dashing options even out of shield.

Now, the objective here is you're expecting your opponent to shield your bomb, and hoping he'll try to do something right after the bomb hits and you'll catch him with a the Fair. I'll talk about actually aiming to hit with the bomb with this pattern in better detail further down, but let me talk about something else first.

Defensively your fastest OoS KO move is undoubtedly going to be your Up Smash. Usually you have to hyphen smash it. Here is some data for you go ponder on. Up Smash connects on frame 11. With a dash with it you can add 2 or 3 frames. So assume your opponent does an attack that pushes you back it's going to take you probably 1/4 of a second to connect a hyphen smash. I'm sure most of you guys hate the defense of this game because there's not really much you can punish if you have a shielding opponent. So when you don't think you're fast enough with a hyphen smash, try OoS Dash Short Hop iFair and DI away. A Fair connects on frame 14 an adding 4 or 6 frames from the dash and the short hop you can expect it to connect at 1/3 of a second. Sure it's slower, but with the DI and counter options it's safer when you're sure you won't connect with the Up Smash.

As I stated before, when a character is in TL's KO range percentage, it's possible to connect a bomb to a Fair. So here's what you do:

Space yourself about 3.5 TL bodies between you and your opponent.
  • Throw Bomb Forward
  • Immediately Dash
  • Immediately Short Hop
Watch to see if your bomb connect. If it does then SJ iFair. If it doesn't than retreat.

I've tested this in training I assume these factors.
  • No DI
  • No diminishing factors
  • KO Point is set by the Usmash(For example TL can Up Smash MK at 100% for a KO so that's the KO Point)
  • Estimating possible human recognition and reaction
Against a few characters and I determined that heavy characters fall into this pattern at around +4%, medium +7%, and light +10% to the KO Point. If you get a little closer it will shift the hit box of your swing over your opponent. You'll need a little more damage do to this so the opponent would be knocked higher into the air by the bomb. It sounds weird, but trust me on this.

Predicting the case the bomb is block and you need to retreat, it's probably best to iNair away and try to aim and catch the bomb. Hey, it's safer than running in with a hyphen smash.

Unfortunately, my friend and I can't play until next week so I've only tested this in training. I'm going to be busy the rest of this week so maybe some of you guys can test these new thoughts out and see how practical it is.

FYI, I'm not looking for how many times it'll connect. If anything most KO attempts fail. Think about it. How many times did you fail to KO with Up Smash having it shielding or dodge. I mean I'm sure we would land a few of them, but I'm wanting to see if we use Fairs in a safe way to poke at the opponent can we get away with it and put pressure on him or her.

Either way, I'll test this in actual match ups when I come back. Good luck!
 

Shadow Moth

Up in the clouds
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
6,672
Location
Hyrule
I think we need a list of what these i[whatever goes here] things. IDK if they're all different (like if they denote something other than doing the same AT with them) but I keep on forgetting what the "i" means in front of a move.
Definitely needing a list or at least a thread.
 

ImpactAR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
595
Location
South Carolina
"i" with an aerial means "instant" or "immediate" the attack ASAP after a jump. iNair means instant Nair after a jump, iFair means instant Fair after a jump, and so on.

An "i" with "Bomb" refers to the iBomb where it stands for "invincible."

Adding to my testing above, it's actually "easier" to just assume that you'll connect with the bomb. Like instead of Dash SH and watching to see if the bomb connects, just Dash SH, SJ iFair. Of course you're losing some counter options here, but I'm going for what's practical.

Also for the ones that are actually going to test it out in actually matches, see if you can Dash SH iFair, SJ iFair. This way if they block the bomb you attack the shield, if it bomb does connect you'll come up for the finish.I didn't test this in training because I assume that would take some time away from the bomb stun and it wouldn't register as a combo, but I didn't bother to confirm this.

Remember, keep in the back of your head is you're seeing how much you can get away with it. Overall TL players focus on Up Smash being our main KO move and by now most of us know we can't simply throw it out and not get punished when it doesn't connect.
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
3,168
Location
Puerto Rico
Yeah khai I sometimes kill with the bomb fair combo. It's been known but a nice refresher for the newer Toon Links I guess.
 

ImpactAR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
595
Location
South Carolina
I'm sure the ones who dedicate themselves to TL "knows" this, but may never think about applying it much because it's easy to see a bomb coming and along with the fact that Fair is TL's slowest KO move. So why bother?

What I'm going for here is the reason is because you can get away with throwing it out. When I test it I notice you can pause a little before going for a SJ iFair so I'm thinking it could be humanly possible to actually recognize that you hit or miss with the bomb and react accordingly.

We know but we never thoroughly tested it, IMO. And if we somewhere did. No one talked about it. At least in the KO thread like the one Santi made way back when.
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
3,168
Location
Puerto Rico
Well ur right we never thoroughly tested it. And not many Toon Links do it from what Ive seen. It is a completely viable way to set up a kill. There's also another version I like using sometimes. Bomb from above the bomb pops him up to a fair. (Di screws this though)
 

ImpactAR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
595
Location
South Carolina
Yeah, I tested bomb throw downs back in the day. I don't do this often, but when I do it tends to work more offensively than defensively. Still when you're running right up to your opponent they'll naturally block and tends to expect you to do something OoS and naturally block. DI screws it up, definitely.

If only the game had a positive slope stun instead of a consistent one. Then we wouldn't have much trouble. Than again a lot of properties with other characters would change too. It'd be funner I think. :(

I don't suppose anyone messed with Brawl +?
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
3,168
Location
Puerto Rico
@ IrjOn-
Usmash- one of the fastest (frame 11) and most reliable kill move. Zair to usmash is a legit combo at certain percents. Downside is it has low range and is just moderately powerful.

Utilt-<---- frame 8 overall safe and quick. Downside is low range (what a surprise) and low knockback for a kill move. Gotta <3 this move.

DSmash- frame 9. Two hits. Gimps some characters and OHKOs in some stages. Downside is low knockback and very little shield pushback in the first hit.

Fsmash- frame 15. Most powerful in terms of knockback and does good damage. Downside is its hard to hit with it and some characters can just float throught it.

Fair- frame 14 + 6 or so frames of jump. Good knockback. Downside- Highly telegraphed, hard to hit little characters with.
 

TLMarth

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
611
Location
smashville
What, utilt is best?
wow.
Can't hyphen smash it though.
Though, I think the more reliable way of killing Out Of Defence is to use Spotdodge instead of shield so that there is no pushback.
 

rebd121

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
262
Location
Wichita, KS
I've read a lot of things about TL having a weak point directly below him. I don't quite understand what this means.
 

TLMarth

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
611
Location
smashville
Basically if you shield a powerful attack you get pushed back quite a lot so that you can't actually do anything in time.

If you spotdodge, you can be right there when the attack stops.

All of TL's attacks that go below him go in a straight line.
 

iRjOn

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,610
Location
Drawing my imagination, in GA
thanxs TD

Basically if you shield a powerful attack you get pushed back quite a lot so that you can't actually do anything in time.

If you spotdodge, you can be right there when the attack stops.

All of TL's attacks that go below him go in a straight line.
Ahh i see yea thats true but the problem is predicting when that powerful attack will come out

I've read a lot of things about TL having a weak point directly below him. I don't quite understand what this means.
Yea but its not the big its weaker than his other areas but nothin that can really be exploited by any character.
Unlike Marth and ROB.
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
3,168
Location
Puerto Rico
Nowhere near as bad as Marth's I assure u. It still is a weakness. At least we have bombs, ibomb and the occasional dair.
 
Top Bottom