Toon Link Q&A and FAQ Thread <- VISIT THIS THREAD BEFORE CREATING A NEW TOPIC

[1PokeMastr]

Yes, moves only stale if you hit a hurtbox, not a shield or air.

Zair -> Nair
Zair - Usmash can work if you catch them off guard

If your bombs are staling that means you hit with them often, which isn't a bad thing.


Also claw/ not claw doesn't make a difference, etc.

Just keep watching videos and try to make it out to tourneys.

Common stufff blah blah blah

 

[CURRY]

Well I mean, most of the time when I'm jumping around, it often involves a full hop + bomb pull (should probably get used to full hop Nairing lol), double jump if I'm getting a boomerang in, or maybe second jump+airdodge, then I get a Zair in. So that's only two moves most of the time, since Zair isn't in the staling queue... meaning lots of staling for bombs.

So yeah. I guess I'll keep watching videos.

 

[CURRY]

Oh my gahh. I finally am able to understand why certain things are so important for TL now. >.>
Welp. Yep.
So.
How do I punish very stupid moves? For example, I was just fighting a Snake today that kept using his side special remote missile thing, and all I did was airdodge through it and zair. It seems that you could do a TON more than punishing with 4% damage though...

once I dashed, did a spotdodge (I kept sliding a little with the dodge) and then dsmash. :|
So I guess TL's main punishes would be dsmash and/or short hopped Dair? That works sometimes if I'm dashing and yeah, you can't exactly do a dsmash out of a dash instantly...

And how do you exactly do a demonic zair? Do you have to jump from relatively low below the ledge to do it (in contrast to hitting away from ledge, then instantly jumping)? And the aerial dodge seems to not have as long a duration as I hoped it would be for this... Only about half the airdodge is usable when I get above the stage; the other half was wasted while rising and hitting the lip. And from videos, it seems that you could DI pretty far away from the corner of the stage before zairing, while my demonic zairs don't go as far.

Also; on these forums, you guys talk a lot about doing a bair close to the ledge so that it hits your enemy while you are safe under the stage. I often hit away from ledge, jump, then do a uair. I never get punished for it though... like, the range is long enough to hit from under the stage, and if it's one of those situations where it's last stock + high damage for both players, it often KOs.
Why is this not mentioned/used often? Is it just too predictable?

Also. Being in a region where there are nearly NO competitive players, (and my WiFi is bad) should I learn the infinite banana lock (with single banana) anyway?

 

[1PokeMastr]

It wouldn't hurt to learn the infinite if you can pull it off consistently.

Your punishes.. would be anything really.

Fair, Nair, Dash Usmash, Dash attack (higher percentages).

Nikita is really slow, but if you're not close enough, you can't get any punishes off.


Also, you're not going to find every option here listed at all, as long as it works, throw it into your game.

 

[CURRY]

Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> crouch cancel -> dtilt?
Or just Jab-jab-jab?
Like, is crouch cancel -> dtilt 100% better than the normal jab? There's a noticable frame difference in the fastest executed jab possible and the crouch cancelled dtilt so I guess not...? But
Probably would have to mix it up, but is learning crouch cancelled jabs -> tilts/smashes good whenever I land a jab?

I don't think my region has any competitive players. I'm the best that I know of that I know in real life, and welp, I'm not really all that great.
It's fun just torturing them with kills of bomb throw down in the air -> uair in their trajectory though. They're predictable since they don't DI or anything. :D

Also, why do people gimp with zair, offstage? It seems like a bad idea... also, not much knockback to prevent them from getting back either.

 

[Rizen]

Hi. On another site people were talking about if TL's Dair always spikes air opponents or if only the initial frames spike then after the move's been out a while it hits upward. My impression was it always spiked on the first hit (as opposed to after it bounces).
Can the TL players clear this up for us? Thanks.

 

[CURRY]

Hi. On another site people were talking about if TL's Dair always spikes air opponents or if only the initial frames spike then after the move's been out a while it hits upward. My impression was it always spiked on the first hit (as opposed to after it bounces).
Can the TL players clear this up for us? Thanks.

The Dair spikes ONLY on the first hit, on the initial frames.
On these frames (assuming this is fresh), it will inflict 16 damage, and has spiking power. On the later frames (still on the "first hit"), it only does 13 damage, and sends the opponent upwards.

After the pogo off of the opponent, the second hit does 8 damage. I believe that this can hit multiple targets if you fastfall it.
You can look at frame stuffs here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...nity-toon-link-guide-work-in-progress.263801/

AND OH LOOK
This thread has some things that can help you do SAFE spikes, which are pretty much the dair that doesn't send you downwards to your death:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...cks-the-data-dump-song-of-brainstorms.228712/
(Little to no use though)

Also, in case someone misses it, can someone answer MY question.... ^^;;
The one about crouch cancelled jab vs normal jab, and zairs offstage

 

[Rizen]

^Okay, thanks

 

[Zach777]

@ CURRY
I will try to answer both your questions to the best of my understanding.

I am still pretty new so I am still learning.

1. Jab cancels
As TL I find no use to jab very much, you should be at the very end of your zairs range spacing wise if you plan on going toe to toe with an opponent. Everybody kinda beats us close range.
TLs jab has a tendency to pop an opponent upwards if they SDI competently, so getting a successful cancel is very rare. I say just finish up the jab as fast as you can if you land one and don't bother with a cancel>dtilt.

2.Zair gimping.
Zair is the only move in TLs arsenal of aerials that doesn't hit an opponent upward much and also has good range.
Therefore you can safely hit an opponent without letting the hitbox from his upb hurt you. In all honesty, if I were to try to gimp an opponent, I would use a well spaced and timed nair(maybe even try the second hit instead of the first to try to follow up with another nair) instead of zair.
Just remember, nair will let your opponent SDI upwards more than zair will, so if your like me, keep that in your mind to make your decision better for the scenario.

Hope I answered your questions, and hope it helps.

 

[-Se7en-]

Toon Links and the 08-10' Tinks. I have a question about one of our kin. What has happened to Hyro? I recently found out I live in the same state as him, and he is all over these boards like a faded tatoo. Hyro is fly like a kite dude.

 

[CURRY]

I don't even know about the good people on these Forums anymore.
I recently saw MJG in a match online though. I was surprised he even played...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO7_zqLG-Uo&feature=em-uploademail

 

[-Se7en-]

MJG plays wifi. Hyro was a good TL in about '10.

 

[CURRY]

What do I do with a bomb on the floor?
I see Hyro ofter dropping his bombs onto the ground on PURPOSE. Like, what... why????

I know about using dair to slide it around... but do I just stay NEAR the bomb, and so the opponent is distracted by it or something? Orr like do I pick it up..? Do I stay far away from it..?

I mean, bombs on the ground are VERY distracting, even to me. I think it would be great if that's something that I can exploit... the bomb only deals 3 damage if it's on the ground anyway, and even LESS if it's already kinda stale.

 

[-Se7en-]

Hyro likes to shut down grounded options, if they try to use a last resort approach (dash attack) they will catch it or he pressures them because they think he will dair it. It's similar to Armada applying pressure as Peach (Turnip + float = can cancel float into turnip or fair).

 

[CURRY]

Hyro likes to shut down grounded options, if they try to use a last resort approach (dash attack) they will catch it or he pressures them because they think he will dair it. It's similar to Armada applying pressure as Peach (Turnip + float = can cancel float into turnip or fair).

So it's kind of a bait? Like, the opponent thinks that after grounding a bomb that TL will have limited options and will try to punish...? That's what I'm getting from the Peach turnip (Don't really understand heh) So people think that Peach has one option, but really she has two?
I don't get the part about pressuring them because they think he'll dair.

 

[-Se7en-]

Forgot to mention SHNair gets them off the ground quickly. The idea is Hyro has 3 options to a grounded bomb

1: Leave it
2: Dair slide
3: Nair pick up

While he has these 3 options he still keeps the flow of his camping.

On another note : Peach can do either in a matter of frames. If you run she has turnip to throw, if you remain close you can eat a fair.

Another thing is to see how the opponent reacts, do they pick it up? Avoid it? Etc.

 

[southpaw]

putting bombs on the ground isn't really that useful imo. hyro was known for his creativity. im pretty sure he still attends offline tourneys every now and then, same with mjg. for the most part everyone stopped caring about smashboards for a long time now

 

[CURRY]

Ahhh. So Brawl isn't dead outside of Smashboards. lel.
I've looked far back into the Q&A thread, and you were in the earlier posts. Hullo.
Yeah, I was really surprised when VGBootCamp sent me a YouTube video with MJG...
Are there any other YouTube channels I should subscribe to besides VGBootCamp?

Also. What throws are generally the best...? (Besides up for juggling at low percents, and nearest to the edge for higher percents) isn't dthrow good? I sometimes just start a bair chain from that because I'm pretty much the only person I know that plays Brawl for srs. There's only one other person who plays more, and he mains Snake... he knows a few ATs and knows most terms, so yeah. It's boring here where I am. >.>

Also, who ARE the people who can be juggled..? Like, is there a list somewhere...?
Random question:
The cherry blossom tree in SV on Japanese matches... was that originally in the Japan disc???

(Goodness gracious, I've edited this so many times.)
How dangerous is it to install Project M or Brawl+...? I have the latest update for my Wii, and it says that it has better anti-hacking measures. And I don't feel like spending time on Subspace Emissary again, unlocking all the characters. And yeah... I don't even know where to get my Wii fixed if it ever self destructs because of homebrew or whatever.

 

[PKBeam]

If your Wii goes boom it's staying boom, but a new Wii should be dirt cheap right now. Homebrew isn't very dangerous at all, i installed Brawl+ and my Wii's still working fine, as long as you don't fiddle with anything you don't have to you're probably fine.

 

[Zach777]

My Wii is 4.3U and installed Revolution(which is kinda like Homebrew) to play Mario Kart Wii Custom Tracks. It still works perfectly.

Installing Homebrew shouldn't hurt your Wii unless the electricity shuts off while it is installing. And if you have Bootmii installed you can probably fix your Wii if it bricks.

Before you install anything 3rd Party Curry, update ur Wii 2 the 4.3U version as that is probably the last update Nintendo will make.

THROWS

Our grabs aren't the best, pick which one you like.

A List
Uthrow does 6% to
Samus
Snake
and somebody else I think.

Dthrow does 4% and is useless against
Jigglypuff.

JAPAN
I am not sure about this, but I think that tree is just on a popular hack pack in Japan.

PROJECT M BRAWL+
I use a 1 GB (precisely 1.81) SD card and load the hackless versions of the mods through Stage Builder

CHANNELS
I recommend
Clash Tournaments
Keitaro.

NOW FOR MY Q.
Is there a site that people use now instead of Smashboards(just say yes or no so you won't violate a rule)

 

[CURRY]

... welp :|

So how fast is our SHDA? Like, do we buffer our arrows in the 6-frame beginning lag of the jump? (6 frame jump is for every character, right...? I think?)

This is because, well...
I'm not very good at playing, really because there aren't people around me that I know that I can play. And so I'm stuck forever playing level 3 MK and lvl 7 Snake. ;-;

So I started learning Marth because of my low plateu for TL. And I want to see if I can use an OoS option on Marth that pretty much is jump + up B immediately... so most people to a tap-jumped "up" on the analog, then just press B.

But if my skills of going from Y to B are fast enough, I could probably NOT use tap jump! Yay!
Soooo if anyone HAPPENS to have that frame data of the time when you can do the quickdrawed arrow.... that would be great. Tap jump messes me up a little sometimes. I don't like it very much.

 

[Zach777]

I can't answer your question. But I do know that the jump animation takes longer for some characters(Wario namely) than for others.

 

[southpaw]

not sure wut ur question is, i think tl's jump squat is frame7 or 8? slower than average. i guess to do shda, the first arrow is likely buffered in jumpsquat. I personally play with tap jump on, to do upb's Oos. Without it, you need to claw aka use ur index finger to hit Y or X. Throws uh F/Bthrow are to throw ppl offstage/ reset postion. dthrow can lead to follow ups but nothings guarenteed. Upthrow kills around 200ish. Easiest way to install PM imo is to do the non hack version, and just put the entire game on one SD card and then load the game through smashstack in stage builder.

for zach, uhhh there isnt really any site ppl are on. Theres currently a tl skype group which is not so active either but you could make it active. make/post your skype names and i can add you.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You don't need to claw with tap jump off.
TLink's Jumpsquat is 6 frames.

 

[Zach777]

I don't do Skype, sorry Southpaw. Thanks for the answer though, there are alot of Smash sites but most favor casual play I have noticed.

I can do upb oos without clawing because I play with nunchuk. A is special, down on d-pad is shield, very easy. I don't use tap jump.

Also a list of options after you have laid a bomb on the groung.

1. Leave it.
2. Sh or FH and aerial to pick it up.
3. Pull another bomb to do double bomb.
4. Jump and press the Z button to catch it.
5.Dash attack to pick it up.
6.DACUS to pick it up.
7. Jump, rising airdodge to catch it.
8. Jump, rising airdodge and zair.
9. Dair slide.

This make look like alot of options but the tech isn't too useful still.

 

[CURRY]

So more info on the unhacked version thing....?
Like.. yeah. I don't get it.

SO GUYS OMG. SMASH 4.
So I don't know the circumstances for creating a new thread -_-

But TL's Fair, Bair, and Nair seem relatively the same. Fair seems significantly faster, and nair is a *little* faster. I don't know about Bair. Then again, this game is supposed to be in between the speed of Melee and Brawl.
http://youtu.be/7xUWnQu2Grs?t=6m58s
Also, shown earlier in the video, his arrows look like they're blunt. heh. Although that isn't worth showing.

http://youtu.be/7xUWnQu2Grs?t=12m48s
His ftilt looks the same.
Jab looks the same... :| (Is there any difference? I will be so happy, and so sad at the same time)

http://youtu.be/7xUWnQu2Grs?t=20m24s
ZSuit can deflect Dedede's Gordo with a sort of side attack, probably side tilt. If this applies to many attacks and all projectiles, we are SCREWED.

GODDAMN I HOPE THOSE FIGURINES THAT SAKURAI WAS HOLDING ARE SOLD. 10/10 would buy all of them. Not just because of Zsuit. >.>
ALSO AHHHH. HYPE. AEWFALJVAF I WANT THE GAME NOW. T-T

 

[Zach777]

I just hope that Sm4sh will have a more Brawl style TL than PM. And lol at Villager stuffin everything in his pants. Giant Phantom soldier shot by Zelda? I gotta stuff that in my pocket!!!

 

[CURRY]

I wonder if tethers are still in the game though? And most likely the quickdrawed things will be taken too... I remember Lucario had his side special's properties similar to TL's?

There are still B-reversals though.
Alright, should this have been a new thread? :/

 

[WindMajor]

Smash 4 stuff should go either in the Smash 4 forum or if it's about Toon Link you guys can talk about it in the TLGD here.

 

[southpaw]

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-frame-data-directory.258564/ toon links jump squat is most definitely 8 according to this thread, and I personally can feel that his jump feels slower than faster chars with 5-6 frame jumps. just remember that everything toon link is slow, and dont ever plan to outspeed ur opponents up close.

 

[Zach777]

Well, I already knew TL was slow. Is there better ways to camp/trap with arrows than what I am doing? Right now, I just use them as straightforward projectile. I know I am being vague with the question, but give me a general wrap up of the applications of our arrows.

Fought a guy(very known Ike) who literally perfect sheilded all off my attacks. I played terribly that match but I am thankful because now I know what I was doing wrong and caused me to place worse than what I think I should have placed in tournaments.

THEORYCRAFT

How would you fight a player that perfect shielded all your spam and caught all your bombs without jumping and using airdodge or aerials? As of now, I will be starting out every match assuming my opponent will have these amazing reflexes just to be safe and prepared.

 

[WindMajor]

I'm gonna assume that your theoretical opponent is a monster at powershielding your camp game from a neutral stance, so the trick would be to either grab or to get him out of that neutral stance and into an attacking animation. That's when you powershield him and use frame advantage to counter attack. You only need to do this once to him out theoretically!

 

[Zach777]

Thanks, I have never fought an opponent with his reflexes so tuned he could catch all my bombs if he wanted though.

Is it safe to assume my opponent has those reflexes at the start of a set and test things out from there? It won't make me play badly against normal opponents(not in skill but in reflexes) will it? I have found that overestimating an opponent is better than underestimating

 

[WindMajor]

Overestimating your opponent is the best, except for when you're clearly better than your opponent, then it's just a mental drain to hold your focus for that long.

 

[southpaw]

You should have different thinking patterns for how a person deals with your projectiles. sometimes they are bad at it and run into everything and all you need to do is just cover space. Other times you want to put projectiles in certain spaces and try to punish their next option afterwards. Its more about adapting vs assuming honestly, but if you had to make a guess. assuming they are a high level player would always be best.

 

[CURRY]

Ohh my gawd.
I finally got the hang of the reverse quick shot..
I tried picking it up again today and I FINALLY DID IT.
Mostly because I didn't think you could buffer the b-reversal and just do diagonal down -> b (instead of down -> b -> reversal -_-)

Doing the down -> b -> reversal, I always almost did a bcat.
Okay yeah, so two questions:

-Why don't I see a lot of people using RQS a lot? I mean, I get the thing with mix-ups, but I think I've only seen four or five TOTAL matches in which a TL did a string of RQSs. RQS seems like a great tool for someone trying to get up in your face; there's almost always a hitbox to run into say, if they're bum-rushing you with a phantasm or something like Snake's DACUS or dash.
-Bcats? It's really weird to time it right; because I almost always do a b-reversal, but sometimes I accidentally do a bcat. It seems pretty hard to time it right, and pretty hard; and then you guys talk about that one AT having small reward for a lot of work?
It's that thing where you REALLY quickly press Z, then an aerial. And I remember in another thread, people were saying that this Japanese guy did it... so I at least know it's not completely impossible...

 

[Zach777]

@ CURRY
You mean TL's dubbed useless IZAC?
I have been practicing implementing IZACs for a while now. I can do a standing, moving, or running SH>IZAC>Nair>QD consecutively now. I have been practing full hop, IZAC, aeriel to hit standing opponents and for tall characters you can hit them.

The IZAC should become essential in every TLs metagame. MK match-up is more manageable with it being used at a frame perfect level.

The IZAC will take countless hours to learn. I use Sheik as well and her DACUS almost has the same frame perfect requirement.

What AT does RQS stand for?

 

[CURRY]

@ CURRY
You mean TL's dubbed useless IZAC?
I have been practicing implementing IZACs for a while now. I can do a standing, moving, or running SH>IZAC>Nair>QD consecutively now. I have been practing full hop, IZAC, aeriel to hit standing opponents and for tall characters you can hit them.

The IZAC should become essential in every TLs metagame. MK match-up is more manageable with it being used at a frame perfect level.

The IZAC will take countless hours to learn. I use Sheik as well and her DACUS almost has the same frame perfect requirement.

What AT does RQS stand for?

RQS = reverse quick shot; I mentioned the full name the first time, hoping you would get it :/ sorry >.>
It's where you do a bair to a fasfalled, b-reversed quickdraw.

And the IZAC... sigh... yeah... I meant that as the "useless" AT.
So with the IZAC, it's frame perfect, like, you need to let go of Z REALLY quick, then INSTANTLY do an aerial?
On TL, I almost always do aerials with A instead of cstick.... and I use Y to jump, so I might set X to grab and see how that works out.

 

[Zach777]

I am not going to tell you what button configuration you should use. Whatever feels right to you.
To know when you performed IZAC perfectly, use nair and if you can't QD after, you did it too slow.

In order to perform a QD easier, I recommend you SH aeriel in the same frame time you would without a bomb except you hit Z in between the SH and the aeriel. I hope you understand what I just said because I don't think I worded it well. Sorry.

 

[CURRY]

What is the importance of mixing up fastfall and normal fall when you're recovering down to the center of the stage? I always just fastfall... :/
And what other options are there?
-Just FF airdodge (bomb pull optional)
-airdodge -> zair (bomb pull optional)
-Bomb pull, throw bomb down, airdodge (zair retaliation optional)
-slow drop bombs (how do people do a bomb pull without fastfalling? )

Also. Holy gosh darn. Melee Pokemon Stadium, people camp under one of those two platforms.
I've just attended my first tourney (just for friendles) and after playing this one guy, I was too shy to play with anyone else so I just watched this other TL player most of the time. >.>
And so YEAH. This guy that I played against was Falco. So that platform above him limited MY options by a TON. So do I have to just pressure him constantly so that he doesn't shoot lasers as often? I couldn't get out of the laser spam. T-T
I guess I just have to attend tourneys a lot more. I always just practice at home, and whenever I play with people, my skills decrease DRAMATICALLY and I can't think straight. The only things I do that work are the ones that require muscle memory e.g. DI / momentum cancel and certain ATs. -_-

Another! :D
Boomerangs and arrows. Sometimes I see people do a boomerang thrown just STRAIGHT FORWARD when landing when they could've replaced it with a quickdraw?? I don't see how it is beneficial, really.

Also, a lot of the time, I see people just doing a SH arrow and not the double arrow. Just preventing easy reads or something? quickdraw arrow seems like it's over pretty fast though.