Toon Link Q&A and FAQ Thread <- VISIT THIS THREAD BEFORE CREATING A NEW TOPIC

southpaw

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landing, basically to land safely you want to be at zair spacing and just land with zair, to get ur opponent to stay away obviously you want to use bombs or wutever. if you have to land near a person crossing up(behind their shield) is best. although toon links fast fall is pretty meh, basically wut u want to do when ur landing is you want to do your landing option at the last moment whether it be an attack or a fast fall airdodge, you want to do it as late as possible so a person cant just see you do something and then they punish you easily on reaction.

ugh fighting falco, if hes under a platform where a bomb wont blow him up it can be quite hard to aproach him. Bombs are good for cutting through lasers until falco starts using reflector when a bombs in ur hand as we dont have a good way to punish that move while holding a bomb outside of airdodge through reflector to zair. Bair pressure once u get past his lasers is your best bet in general.

tourney nerves...ugh, you have to just learn how to deal with it, putting yourself in this anxious state by going to tourneys more often is the best way to get over it honestly. I personally try to play much more basic and not exactly technical because i'm afraid of messing up inputs in tourney due to nerves but thats me. other ppl do the opposite and start going into some technical auto pilot and dont pay attention to their opponent due to nerves. Only through experience will you get used to it and get over it.

landing with boomerang throw vs quickdraw. Timed right boomerang has very little lag when ur opponent is forced to block. unlike arrows which always have a set amount of lag. both are shield grabbable on block at close, arrows are even smash punishable so watchout for that.

I can understand your want to do quickdraws after every jump but dont. A player can easily run up and powershield your quickdraw and punish you dearly for it. not doing a quickdraw when your opponent thinks you'll do a quickdraw can actually save you since they are going to hold block at a certain time expecting a quickdraw but then you do something else (run away/grab/jump away) and they likely wont see it coming.
 

CURRY

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Well, I meant the thing about the quickdrawed arrow like, why do they use boomerang in place of arrow. I know not to QD after every jump yeah... but that part with replacing what possibly could be a quckdraw with a boomerang was the part that puzzled me.
Thanks for answering that part.

Yeah, like, I've seen the SH double arrow used like, two times ever on YouTube.

In fact, I remember when it was used. Jerm used a SH double arrow ONCE in a certain Marth match. The only other time I've seen SH double arrow was in a combo video where a person couldn't get out of projectile spam (the TL only used SH double arrow and bomb pull -> quickdraw and the opponent couldn't get out)


ANYWAY, MY TWO QUESTIONS:
I see lots of just SH arrow without the quickdraw. That seems pretty nice, but what do I follow up with after a SH arrow? I see a LOT of grounded arrows now too. Like, a NORMAL GROUNDED ARROW, although it seems like it's mostly for edge-trapping for when the opponent has already grabbed the ledge. I also see a lot of just a grounded arrows after they throw a boomerang (also mostly for edge-trapping). Why???

Benefits of a grounded arrow? Benefits of SH single arrow?
 
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Zach777

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@ CURRY CURRY
I don't know the answer to your first question. There really isn't a solid answer. Go with your gut.

Pulling a bomb without fastfalling just takes practice. Here is how you practice it. Grab a ledge, and hit the control stick down(not all the way). The area on the control stck(I'll call it D-stick) where you won't FF on the ledge is the same when your in the air. You need to know how to do this, Curry.

When you play against Falco do not stay on an even level with him. Above or below him is what you want. Rang can be a hindrance to his camping game if you use it right. Remember that all of Falco's lasers are transcending, meaning they don't clank with anything. I think, but am not for sure, that a bombs body absorbs his lasers.

In all honesty, I think rang is a bad landing option if used like that.

Arrows are easy to perfect shield and QD after a short hop can be easily punished if your opponent is semi-close and is prepared for it. Most people just SH to arrow while moving away to make it harder for their opponent to punish them and they don't QD because if their opponent perfect shields it, they will be punished.

Wrote all that without seeing Southpaws answer.

Your right, grounded arrow can work as an edgetrap. A grounded arrow is basically a SH to arrow but allows you to jump afterwards without wasting your DJ.
 
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CURRY

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Jumping after a SH to arrow without wasting DJ? I don't get how that works.

Well, I thought the grounded arrow = an arrow released without jumping at all. So yeah, I see arrows used without even leaving the ground. Again, it's usually for edge trapping, so is it just because they just want the safety of being on the ground? I would think that a SH arrow is 100% better than a grounded arrow? I mean, the range of a SH arrow is like, 1/3 longer than the arrow used on the ground. If the opponent is short enough so that they wouldn't get hit by a SH arrow, it's already a bad option to do it on the ground anyway (AHEM META KNIGHT)

to *attempt* to escape Falco CG at low percent = downtilt, I presume?

EDIT:
Hero's Shield. So here's the situation:
I am at a friend's party, playing a team battle (no team attack) against inexperienced laser spammers at the Bridge of Eldin. I could easily approach them of course, but I just felt entitled to protect my teammate.
So how do you keep your shield on? Like, it's annoying sometimes because I tank a few shots when I go into my standing idle animation. Crouching doesn't work because my head gets hit...
So I just powershield every ~2 or 3 shots. I mean, it seems that TL keeps his shield in front of him when he's walking/running/dashing, but it doesn't protect him when he's doing that???
 
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Zach777

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@ CURRY CURRY
Only a grounded arrow keeps your DJ, SH arrow to an immediate jump wastes your DJ. I use the word waste loosely here.

No good Falco will drop his CG. DJing would be better I presume.

Don't even bother with Hyrulian shield, it is a pain and gives you too much knockback. TL doesn't even protect himself with it.
 

southpaw

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honestly im not sure where ur even seeing toon links use rising sh arrow alone. i personally prefer boomerangs and bomb throws for a projectile to use in the air, if they're too close then use zair. the reason why sh double arrow is meh is because it requires ur opponent to be a far distance away, also most of the cast will duck under the sh arrow by just dashing at you at middle range. grounded arrows are nice because its our fastest projectile that can cover the space in front of us outside of already having a bomb in hand and throwing it. I've outcamped yoshi in tourney with grounded arrow alone cuz it outspeeds his egg toss.
 

Zan-

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i've been using izac as a mixup in normal play, nobody sees it coming. ESP in ics/mk mus, if they are powershielding trying to approach, you can space a izac nair on mk. izac bair catchs ics off guard. Its good but don't RELY on it. Also, RQS=the jerk?
 

CURRY

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=.=
Stupid question. :(
How do you guys direct the returning 3% boomerang at your opponent?

So I guess give some examples of how you would direct it up, how do direct it down, and how to direct it in front? :p
 

CURRY

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Two things:

Sometimes when I attempt to do an ibomb, I throw the bomb up? Someone explain?

Also: with ibombing, is it generally safer to do shield + Z, or shield + A? With shield + A, if you fail, you'll still be in your airdodge, which is safer in some situation. With shield + Z, I find it a LOT easier when doing a rising ibomb.
 

southpaw

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if ur getting a throwing animation u might be trying to buffer ibomb (which cant be buffered). why is it going up? idk ur holding up. or u might be getting airdodge cancel throw cuz ur holding a direction. I use shield+a for ibomb, but use wutever floats ur boat.
 

CURRY

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Your joystick is probably just old/broken/sticky XD. There is certainly no technical reason for that to happen. Get a new controller.
Auuggh. :(
I get that a lot....
It's sad because my controller is a white GC which I got from Amazon sometime after Christmas... so it's fairly new.
Nothing I can do about it, right? I don't believe there was any important-looking piece of paper which came with my controller... on top of that, Nintendo stopped making GCs.
Even if Amazon did have a warranty, I don't think it would last 5+ months for something like a controller.

I don't even know. I wasn't the person who directly ordered the controller, so idk...
 

CURRY

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http://youtu.be/7Uxsx2t-V1Y?t=4m4s

After MK dies, why does Sigma throw the bomb up?
I mean, that's CRAZY intimidating, and it's really smart that Sigma learned the distance to walk to be just out of range of the bomb... xD

But why do that in that certain situation? MK is going to have invincibility frames for a few seconds anyways, so he shouldn't be scared of all the bombs.
 
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PKBeam

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http://youtu.be/7Uxsx2t-V1Y?t=4m4s

After MK dies, why does Sigma throw the bomb up?
I mean, that's CRAZY intimidating, and it's really smart that Sigma learned the distance to walk to be just out of range of the bomb... xD

But why do that in that certain situation? MK is going to have invincibility frames for a few seconds anyways, so he shouldn't be scared of all the bombs.
he did it for the lulz.
no, seriously.

he was just showing off
 
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CURRY

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T-T

No matter how much I play and try
I still don't understand how to use Battlefield.
I always feel like I'm at a disadvantage with the people staying under the platforms.

So am I the one that's supposed to be camping down there? I don't get it because if I throw a bomb up with a person standing on one of the side platforms, I'll get hit too; and utilt and usmash aren't very good in those situations.

It helps a little for me to look at BF as a three-layered stage, and having the mindset that if my opponent is on the bottom layer, then I have to be there too, then I have to space horizontally.

I guessss can someone give me videos of good TLs on BF?

EDIT:
Oh yeah, how do I deal with/utilize the moving platform in SV?

Another EDIT:
http://youtu.be/pt2AJAe694M?t=15m20s
What is the point of shorthopping in that sitation?????
 
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southpaw

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for a long time i hated battlefield and its still not one of my preferred stages. you want to play a little more sh height/grounded on that stage. you are right that bombs cant be thrown over your opponent anymore. bair works quite nicely on bf tho when ppl are landing as it sweeps through the side platforms. when ppl are camping under the side platforms you'll have to play more grounded and straight forward with your projectiles. i honestly hate this stage vs marth/falco/oli. also upsmash can hit some chars when they are standing on the side platforms. MJG i believe loves BF as a stage so its likely his matches will be on it online.

SV works like a smaller FD, the moving platform I mainly only utilize for helping me get back on stage from the ledge. else u can use it as a way to help jump over a person when you are beginning to get cornered on one side of the stage.

mjg's sh'ing is just something to do really. it allows him to possibly dj and throw a bomb down instantly or ibomb as a quick counter to potential aproaches along with gives you a different trajectory with bomb throw vs ground throw. TL's SH isn't completely safe at all tho as he is pretty floaty and has trouble getting back down from the ground quickly so u wouldn't want to do it too much when your opponent is say a roll distance or less from you.
 

CURRY

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I see people mixing up slow fall/fastfall, but I always just fastfall.
What are good situations in which slow fall is better than a fast fall?

EDIT:
How... do you do that thing... where you THROW (not z-drop) the bomb DOWN but you don't fastfall??? ಠ_ಠ

is it the same thing as how you partially tilt the analog down, but not all the way? Every time I try to do that, I just do a forward throw...

MOAR EDITS:
I saw a Brawl with no hoop damage?
It was a mod, so was it just the mod, or can you turn off hoop damage?
Also, how do you catch an item without a dodge/attack?
 
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southpaw

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slow falling isn't exactly better than fast fall altho you do experience less landing lag (only 2 frames vs 4) but its mainly used to stall and then fast fall when your opponent doesnt expect you to.

You can use the c stick the throw items and do airials, I reccommend using it.

I literally googled hoop dmg to understand what that even is, after 150% you stop taking damage

Z catching is the other way to catch items, just press the grab button altho the catch window is a little tougher and if you hold the button i think it turns into an airdodge catch i forget
 

CURRY

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So if a person is recovering from the top corner of a stage; I usually throw a boomerang in their general direction, THEN throw a bomb up.
Do you guys usually throw the bomb first? It seems like it works better.

Also, there's that super super fancy, flashy thing: releasing THREE projectiles in a single shorthop.
you know, soft-throw a bomb up, bomb pull, short hop+ throw, zthrow (idk what the thing is called when you catch an item and immediately throw it) -> quickdraw...
Has anyone actually done this in a tournament and has gotten good results? I imagine it might be pretty good against those MKs when they keep regrabbing the ledge.

How do you immediately do a wall jump after dropping off a ledge?

Also, QQ it seems that TL was severely nerfed in Sm4sh. utilt does 5 damage, I think. dtilt also doesn't do much damage. I don't remember, but I think nair does 9 damage for each hit; and you can't SH double bair anymore. and zairs have landing lag.
 
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Zach777

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@ CURRY CURRY

Don't start conversations about Sm4sh. Twinkie told us not to.

I don't know the applications of the three projectile barrage(I'll start calling that from now on) so you should experinent with it yourself. But I do have the ability to perform the barrage at will because I always practice techs like that.

To wall jump from a ledge grab. Move the d stick away from the ledge then immediately move back toward the stage then back to having the stick away from the stage. Just do it all quickly. Try practicing it on Battlefield or Yoshi's Island Brawl. You can't walljump off Smashville.

Covering your recovering butt with projectiles. I prefer throwing the boomerang so that it will miss my opponent and go behind him then throw the bomb up so that it will reach the apex of the throw right where the ledge is. Then ub to grab the ledge.
Make sure to figure out what your projectile plan is in the moment and not have a universal projectile layout. Keep your opponent on his toes.

Hope this helps, CURRY.
 

Dre89

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What competitive applications does the bow have apart from quickdrawing? QDing was the only time I ever used the bow, but I'd like to incorporate more bow applications into my gameplay.
 

southpaw

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arrows are pretty good, but they can seem hard to find useful. gotta just think about wut is good about arrows. (ignoring QD'ing since u know its applications already).

arrows are our fastest projectile if u dont have a bomb in hand. arrows are also capable of being charged. yeah thats about it.

The tough thing about noticing when an arrow is good to use is the fact that bomb toss, and boomerang both cover the same place that an arrow goes. So it can be easy to forget that an arrow can be used in that position too. This can be important to think about as toon link doesnt always have a bomb in hand, and our boomerang can leave us and there is a window of time where u cant use it.

I use arrows while trying to recover to the stage. Usually a good idea to stop ur opponent from jumping offstage after you is to cover the spot right above the ledge with a projectile. Both ur boomerang and arrow can cover this position.

Grounded arrows actually beats out yoshis grounded egg spam quite well in the event you ever have to fight a yoshi.

And charging an arrow at an already shielding opponent at mid range (a little farther than roll distance) is a very good way to pressure someone. So long as u dont let them jump before u release the arrow if anything you lowered their shield hp, and now have a better chance of getting shield pokes.

Just try to think about where an arrow can be used where boomerang or a bomb wouldnt be as effective. And honestly QD arrows is the most useful thing about them, you dont really have to incorporate arrows too much into ur game outside of that, but its good exercise to brainstorm and think about all of your options.
 

CURRY

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http://youtu.be/pt2AJAe694M?t=5m11s

MJG runs TOWARD Otori, and SHs backwards.
So is this... supposed to be the Brawl version of what dashdancing was in Melee? Is this... baiting...?

It doesn't cover too much ground though...

Also, some videos/situations in which wavebounced arrows can mindgame people? I kinda want to impliment it in my gameplay more...
 
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southpaw

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you could call it a bait i guess..although its more so just spacing. hes retreating back to a safe distance where he can react to what will happen next. running in makes sure that he isn't only retreating where he would be losing ground/stage control.

wavebounce arrows have limited use with toon link because of how much endlag arrows have. sh'ing with ur back faced to ur opponent then doing a breverse arrow so that u switch ur momentum from forwads to back can be a little useful. b reversing arrows while trying to land similar to diddys peanut cancel or snake nades/c4, can help a little although because of how much endlag arrows have i wouldnt rely on it.

at best wavebounce arrows are a mixup really, and you won't see it being used too often and i can't think of any videos where it was used and got consistent reward. Wouldn't say its useless, its just times where it woulda worked or saved you will be low thats all.
 

CURRY

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So when someone tries to punish me when I'm coming down to the ground (While I have a bomb) I just airdodge -> zair...
But that only works if they try to punish me from the front.

If I spaced badly and didn't spam enough projectiles, sometimes they go to the BACK of me... in which case I ibomb. But the bomb drops on the floor, and half the time, I sit in my shield, they get hit, I shield the bomb, and I retreat again.
It's become a pretty common pattern for me to do that, so they sometimes shield too and grab me OoS.
I don't think a b-reversed arrow is good in that situation, because of the ending lag... so what can I do?
Is it a better risk to just be hit by the bomb?

I understand that my projectile spam isn't good enough if they're able to do that. :C
So should I just improve on that aspect instead?

EDIT:
If there happens to be any new TLs coming by... I think that out guides should be organized a bit more, and changed perhaps...
e.g. the AT thread. It should probably be organized by usefulness; out of all of those. probably only ~10% of them have been used in tournament play.
And the quickdrawed arrow is rated 10/10 usefulness, while zair with bomb is rated 9/10. :(
I can't find it, but that glitchy dair stall is rated something like 9/10 or 8/10 although it's super risky to attempt.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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While I agree that the usefulness ratings are out of date, all things considered, I can't see it getting updated. For starters the ratings would need to be updated according to current high level tournament standards, i.e. according to the recommendations of the best Toon players. But that's never going to happen. These boards are long dead. (In fact that's another reason in and of itself.)
If people are genuinely worried about the misleading nature of having usefulness ratings that are now well out of date, then I can just get rid of them altogether. There's also the option of me just going through and making adjustments wherever I see fit, but then that will just be my opinion which won't be as authoritative as is required in order to make such a scheme work.

Oh and the Dair Recovery Stall is not risky. I use it all the time and never ever mess it up. But whatever.
 

CURRY

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While I agree that the usefulness ratings are out of date, all things considered, I can't see it getting updated. For starters the ratings would need to be updated according to current high level tournament standards, i.e. according to the recommendations of the best Toon players. But that's never going to happen. These boards are long dead. (In fact that's another reason in and of itself.)
If people are genuinely worried about the misleading nature of having usefulness ratings that are now well out of date, then I can just get rid of them altogether. There's also the option of me just going through and making adjustments wherever I see fit, but then that will just be my opinion which won't be as authoritative as is required in order to make such a scheme work.

Oh and the Dair Recovery Stall is not risky. I use it all the time and never ever mess it up. But whatever.
lolol that's cool. I might start trying to do that too I guess. ._.
Can you answer my original question too? :<

So when someone tries to punish me when I'm coming down to the ground (While I have a bomb) I just airdodge -> zair...
But that only works if they try to punish me from the front.

If I spaced badly and didn't spam enough projectiles, sometimes they go to the BACK of me... in which case I ibomb. But the bomb drops on the floor, and half the time, I sit in my shield, they get hit, I shield the bomb, and I retreat again.
It's become a pretty common pattern for me to do that, so they sometimes shield too and grab me OoS.
I don't think a b-reversed arrow is good in that situation, because of the ending lag... so what can I do?
Is it a better risk to just be hit by the bomb?

I understand that my projectile spam isn't good enough if they're able to do that. :C
So should I just improve on that aspect instead?
 

southpaw

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if the person is getting hit by the bomb if possible u should try to follow that up with a bair or wutever attack to your choosing.

if you are getting grabbed after the bomb blows up on the ground that means you are in shield forever, and could have done a runaway option or attacked and also grabbed the bomb bouncing off their shield in mid air.

if they are grabbing you and throwing you before the bomb blows them up at all...well theres nothing you can do about that, they punished your landing correctly and you'll have to make sure that doesnt happen again. You can try mashing spotdodge or roll earlier in hopes they mess up their timing.

in general getting blown up by your bomb isn't a big deal i'd say. you know its coming, you know how to di it, it does minimal dmg, and theres not that much hitstun to be capatalized on. I will get hit by my own bomb 9 times out of 10 over getting grabbed or punished by my opponent if i have the choice. I always become extremely agressive if my opponent grabs my bomb too, now they dont have a way to grab me and at worst we both blow up and take even dmg.
 

CURRY

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Yeah, I'm having trouble with Falco at PS2, when there's no transformation.

Falco camps under that platform, and the bombs can't get him, the boomerangs are powershielded, and arrows suck because of lasers.
If I approach with zair, or if a boomerang is horizontal enough that it can pretty much get him, he can either back a LITTLE farther away so that the projectile will whiff, or he can also phantasm to the other platform on the other side.
Same thing goes with Battlefield.

I also can't really land on battlefield because of the platforms covering 90% of the stage... they'll go through the platform and punish my landing.
Sometimes, I land near the edge of the stage, because there's not platform there... but that's a really small space, and besides, fighting near the edge and being restricted there isn't a very good option.

I mean, it helps on both of these stages to spam projectiles horizontally, but Falco's projectiles outclasses ours on that level.

Same with Snake, kinda... if he gets pressured, he'll just DACUS to another platform.
 

CURRY

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:/ I don't think I've seen people ever using this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7t...d=annotation_993499&channel=VideoGameBootCamp
It seems like a pretty good thing to do, but I've found teching/DI/momentum cancel to be a muscle-memory thing that just happens automatically that you prepare a bit beforehand, e.g. if you're on a part of the stage that's close to a wall, or if you're offstage, you kinda prepare to tech if you happen to hit something...
it's actually BECAUSE of practicing teching that I've had a bad habit of doing Zairs instead of bairs. -.- so with this though, you cancel an airdodge with a throw, which takes a shorter time than only using an aerial alone... I mean, that's super useful for living a little longer, but it's REALLY bad if you get stuck in your Zair animation.

also, do people still do the ledge bomb pull? Where you do a bomb pull while on the ledge (fastfall or not, doesn't matter), DJ, and if you DID fastfall, up-B?

Has that been found to be super-punishable? Because I've used that often in my gameplay... =.=
Definitely, if you abuse it WAAY too much, you'll definitely get killed... but still, is it still a staple part of our ledge game at all? You can cover yourself with a bomb when you rise if they try to go after you, which is nice...
 
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southpaw

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that item throw thing is kinda useful, i use it more so with diddy than tl but yeah.

everyone does that ledge drop bomb pull thing u described. I dont really but most do, i instead do dj bomb pull under the stage where i sweet spot the ledge after finishing the bomb pull animation without having to upb. not gunna say its safer, but thats what i do.

in how punishable wut ur doing is, it can be edgehogged and youll die instantly. as u said if u throw a bomb up before upb'ing makes it safer(not edgehoggable). i still think it can still be punished to death consitently by chars like MK/Marth/DK off the top of my head. dont wanna say never use it cuz nearly everyone does it, but just make sure not to be too obvious about ur offstage patterns
 

CURRY

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omg... guys...

If you ever happen to shield a ledge attack while you're on the edge, and you fall off the ledge (forced shield drop) in your tumble animation...
sometimes you can do a uair while you're falling and it will hit... :>

Just might let you guys know.'
But ahh, RIP this game's metagame... everyone's going to play Smash 4 now...

EDIT:
Also, what do you do when someone is on the platform above you on Battlefield?
Usmash only hits like, 1/10th of the time... and throwing a bomb will end up in both players trading damage.
SH uair is super laggy... idk what else.
 
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southpaw

Smash Apprentice
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i usually mash bair over uair in that situation but i guess taht might work too kool.

when ppl are on platforms. bair works pretty well to hit them and its pretty safe if you space/retreat it from there u can angle a boomerang or something. a riskier option would be to rise a nair through and try to land both hits on block, still unsafe but the two hits might mess with mash happy punishers.
 

CURRY

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Does second hit nair end earlier, or bair? Or are they the same?
Pretty much, does second hit nair have earlier iasa frames than bair?

this doesn't list second hit nair.
this random frame data I googled is waay different from the one of Smashboards. (Nair starts on frame 4 rather than 6??)

And I don't know which is correct T-T
 
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southpaw

Smash Apprentice
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NY, and CA
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The best place for toon links frame data is FioD's Triforce of Toon link Guide
according to it nair hits...
Hit front: 6
Hit back: 13
and i know bair hits on frame6. altho remember that our jump squat is 8 frames long. so the earliest a sh nair or bair comes out is actually frame 14. iasa frames, idk if air moves have that. but on block punishing 2nd hit nair is tougher than bair.
 
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