Tomafia 4: Game Over - Mafia Wins!

[Rockin]

Ah ****, I just realized something about the setup.

The only possible game setup where there's guaranteed no neapolitan is ALSO the one where mafia is just two goons. If mafia has a single power role, neapolitan is a possibility.

Therefore it's a pretty safe fakeclaim for scum, if they have no power roles.

It looks like the same is true for Tracker if they have a Roleblocker, but if they have a rolecop, I'm not seeing any "guaranteed safe" claims.

why are you doing this? =/

 

[Tom]

Vote Count [5/9 to lynch]:
<π (3): Strong Bad, TewnLeenk, Werekill
Rockin (1): <π
Mediocre (1): ---
Not voting (4): Pythag, Rockin, Mediocre, Matunas

Day 1 will end without a lynch on Friday, March 29 at 5:30 CST, or when a player reaches 5/9 votes.

 

[Lore]

why are you doing this? =/

Considering that A. We are in a game with confirmed setup restrictions and B. My read of - - - was based on my gut, I really want to account for this possibility.

 

[Rockin]

Considering that A. We are in a game with confirmed setup restrictions and B. My read of - - - was based on my gut, I really want to account for this possibility.

but why the wifom tho?

 

[Lore]

but why the wifom tho?

It's almost as if I want to account for all possibilities instead of just a gut read, when the claimed role just happens to potentially be one of the 2 safe claims for scum?

I'm not adding - - - to my lynch pool right now, but I'm keeping track of my thoughts and reads publicly.

 

[Matunas]

As of right now <π , your posts aren't making me feel any different than I did last night. If anything they are more reasons for me to feel okay about it. With that in mind I won't be voting quite yet, as it puts you in hammer range and we can still talk quite a bit. I should be pretty active today and able to post pretty quickly.

Rockin What do you think is wrong with having more information available? From my experience with this game, the more shared accurate information out there, the better it is for the town. I'm not sure I understand why you think Werekill breaking that down would be a bad thing.

 

[Strong Badam]

Ah ****, I just realized something about the setup.

The only possible game setup where there's guaranteed no neapolitan is ALSO the one where mafia is just two goons. If mafia has a single power role, neapolitan is a possibility.

Therefore it's a pretty safe fakeclaim for scum, if they have no power roles.

It looks like the same is true for Tracker if they have a Roleblocker, but if they have a rolecop, I'm not seeing any "guaranteed safe" claims.


Either way, this fact makes me a bit uneasy about ---. I want to keep a close eye on this slot post D1.

There's a lot to unpack here.
If they have no power roles and fakeclaim Neapolitan and we hit a Goon on lynch, we can apply pressure on that. There'd still be a chance that there's a powerrole Mafia but not as much statistically. We could also ask Town if there's a counterclaim.
If they have a power role and fakeclaim Neapolitan is basically means they can't kill Neapolitan until win, allowing the Neapolitan to alignment check for several nights.

It's almost as if I want to account for all possibilities instead of just a gut read, when the claimed role just happens to potentially be one of the 2 safe claims for scum?

Could you Werechill a sec? This is a bit rude, I think we can still accomplish a lot and answer queries without taking tones like this. It's something I've tried to be careful of myself, and I know I haven't been perfect about it.

As of right now <π , your posts aren't making me feel any different than I did last night. If anything they are more reasons for me to feel okay about it. With that in mind I won't be voting quite yet, as it puts you in hammer range and we can still talk quite a bit. I should be pretty active today and able to post pretty quickly.

This is a good call I think, I don't think the 3 votes on Pi are going to change unless some other target gets up to 3 and there's a stalemate. Is there a time, or rather, amount of time remaining, where you'd want to put Pi in hammer range? Or is it variable based on the nature of further discussion?

I'd really like for --- Pythag and Mediocre to chime in after the recent discussions and state of Pi's vote count. Mediocre mentioned that he wouldn't be comfortable voting Pi unless something changed; has something changed in your opinion?

And I'd like to hear if Rockin would be willing to vote Pi or if he's hoping for a wagon on another player. Basically, I'd like to get an understanding of who would be willing to put Pi to 4 and/or hammer him, and for what reasons. And if not, why not?

 

[Strong Badam]

Oh also, for the newer players just in case, "hammer" refers to the 5th vote on a player, or in subsequent nights the amount of votes needed to secure a lynch. When this happens the day phase ends immediately, preventing any further discussion. There's a lot of insight to derive if a player is at hammer range, or if someone hammers when there's a great deal of time left in the day phase.
Another term is "L-x," where a player is at "Lynch status minus X votes." Pi is at L-2 right now, and another vote would put him at L-1 AKA hammer range.

 

[Rockin]

It's almost as if I want to account for all possibilities instead of just a gut read, when the claimed role just happens to potentially be one of the 2 safe claims for scum?

I'm not adding - - - to my lynch pool right now, but I'm keeping track of my thoughts and reads publicly.

1) No need to look for wifom when we can just look at facts with lynch flip on D1, as well as possible night actions on D2

2) Gonna need you to tone down the slight sass and answer the question calmly, else you want me to respond with the same level. I wouldn't want to do that in Tom's game, but I will if this keeps being an issue.

Rockin What do you think is wrong with having more information available? From my experience with this game, the more shared accurate information out there, the better it is for the town. I'm not sure I understand why you think Werekill breaking that down would be a bad thing.

Thing is, I'm under the belief of the roles are publicly presented to us, and trying to further figure out the possibilities of other roles/fakeclaims is a waste of time. WE need to focus on the facts and the inconsistancy of other players, not trying to figure out setups.

Speaking of time, we only have 6 and a half hours till lynch. to some people, that could be enough time, but with people possibly working today, it'd be problematic.

Strongbad - Like I said, I'd rather get another lynch target (perferably werekill), but I wouldn't be opposed too much for a <pi lynch.

Vote: <π

 

[<π]

For some reason I keep mixing up medi and werekill. I did it earlier too but caught it. my scum list is still werekill, sb, rockin.

Medi is more null to me. sorry for confussion.

 

[Strong Badam]

OK so Pi is now at hammer range, IMO it in Town's best interest to not hammer for a couple more hours.

Pythag Mediocre --- can you please chime in?

 

[Pythag]

Doing pretty good these days. Enjoying life on the west coast. I appreciate your response. You gave a pretty clear impression of where you stand on things as a whole. Curious as to what you think of Medi now that he has posted significantly more.

Uhh, not feeling so great anymore.

I think I'm getting a town read on Medi, but not so sure.

I'm liking pi/strongbad less and less.

Pi (and perhaps strongbad) is grabbing things out of context, that strike me as deliberate misreadings in order to get momentum against one another.

Again the reading is stronger on Pi.

1) No need to look for wifom when we can just look at facts with lynch flip on D1, as well as possible night actions on D2


Thing is, I'm under the belief of the roles are publicly presented to us, and trying to further figure out the possibilities of other roles/fakeclaims is a waste of time. WE need to focus on the facts and the inconsistancy of other players, not trying to figure out setups.

Sorry werekill, I'm agreeing with Rockin here. I appreciate the activity, but your stream of consciousness reads as scummy to me. It can be a way of covering your tracks, as well as muddying the waters for under the guise of being helpful.

 

[Lore]

There's a lot to unpack here.
If they have no power roles and fakeclaim Neapolitan and we hit a Goon on lynch, we can apply pressure on that. There'd still be a chance that there's a powerrole Mafia but not as much statistically. We could also ask Town if there's a counterclaim.
If they have a power role and fakeclaim Neapolitan is basically means they can't kill Neapolitan until win, allowing the Neapolitan to alignment check for several nights.

Could you Werechill a sec? This is a bit rude, I think we can still accomplish a lot and answer queries without taking tones like this. It's something I've tried to be careful of myself, and I know I haven't been perfect about it.

Yeah honestly, it's one of those claims that's tricky to unpack until flips with these setups. I think I'm going to shelve this line until we see scum flips or cop/neapolitan checks. It's enough to make me rethink my gut read, but going down this path may just lead to more noise toDay.

To sum it up though, I'm for questioning the claim now until we see some scum flips, but --- isn't in my lynch pool just from that. I want to trust my earlier gut while also trying to account for everything. It could be a potent scum fakeclaim, but we only have a 1/3 chance of it even being a possibility. Not great odds.

As for Werechilling, I thought my tone was pretty ok there. It was a super weird thing from Rockin, and I was responding accordingly. I get where you're coming froml You want the game to remain chill. I just disagree on the reading of my tone.

 

[Matunas]

This is a good call I think, I don't think the 3 votes on Pi are going to change unless some other target gets up to 3 and there's a stalemate. Is there a time, or rather, amount of time remaining, where you'd want to put Pi in hammer range? Or is it variable based on the nature of further discussion?

I was going to say an hour or two, but then Rockin made his vote. So that changes my response. I don't mind being the hammer if or when it comes down to that, but I still think we have a good chunk of day left.

Rockin I think I get where you are coming from on the idea of not wasting time trying to figure setups out, but I don't agree. We have a soft claimed role right now that directly impacts how we view information in the upcoming days. Since we are given the possible setups I think it is important to look at and understand what all that could mean. Right now we have more pressing matters with the day coming to a close, which is what I think you are getting at, but having solid info on what may be going on is a good thing imo.

 

[Lore]

1) No need to look for wifom when we can just look at facts with lynch flip on D1, as well as possible night actions on D2

2) Gonna need you to tone down the slight sass and answer the question calmly, else you want me to respond with the same level. I wouldn't want to do that in Tom's game, but I will if this keeps being an issue.



Thing is, I'm under the belief of the roles are publicly presented to us, and trying to further figure out the possibilities of other roles/fakeclaims is a waste of time. WE need to focus on the facts and the inconsistancy of other players, not trying to figure out setups.

Speaking of time, we only have 6 and a half hours till lynch. to some people, that could be enough time, but with people possibly working today, it'd be problematic.

This is fair, and I'm fine backing down on the --- as per my original post. It's just a distinct possibility for scum, and it fills the "why would scum do this early" void in my earlier reasoning. But you're right, it doesn't help anything right now.

I apologize if you read that as insulting, but I will say that you can probably expect similar levels of sass. It's just how I post.

But ask me to tone it down politely, as you did here, and I will have no problem lowering the sass. Thanks for being polite about it!

 

[Lore]

I was going to say an hour or two, but then Rockin made his vote. So that changes my response. I don't mind being the hammer if or when it comes down to that, but I still think we have a good chunk of day left.

Rockin I think I get where you are coming from on the idea of not wasting time trying to figure setups out, but I don't agree. We have a soft claimed role right now that directly impacts how we view information in the upcoming days. Since we are given the possible setups I think it is important to look at and understand what all that could mean. Right now we have more pressing matters with the day coming to a close, which is what I think you are getting at, but having solid info on what may be going on is a good thing imo.

Honestly Matunas, I am starting to agree with them here. It was an important thing to note since it affected my gut read, but it's a bit of a WIFOM situation without flips. It'd just be a lot of back and forth with no way to guess how it ends up.

It was worth pointing out on my end, but further discussion wouldn't be a deep, useful well to dig into. We don't have enough info.

I kinda regret my sass earlier now, Rockin had a point. Especially after his big post that I quoted.

 

[---]

<π - Am willing to brush aside the brag as I'm also re-learning the game in some aspects, but I'd like to hear more beyond SB/Rockin.

Rockin - Besides the post asking SB/WK to tone it down, your aggressiveness strikes me in a different way than SB/WK. I'm curious as to what you have to say in regards to Pythag's read on you if you've played together before. Role claiming I feel is important and dismissing it, unlike SB/WK, I have to question.

TewnLeenk - Your posts are the most brief. You're new but I'd like to see your further thoughts.

Werekill - You're active and I feel you've given the most thought in terms of your reads as the phase has progressed.

Mediocre - Very null, but thank you for replying in depth. I'd like to see you post more. Unvote

Strong Bad - Active and adamant. I think you're the alpha player right now. I remember towns being led to their doom before, but for the moment it's hard to disagree with your current dedication on Day 1. That said, though you have the right idea, I think you need to re-read my clues slightly.

Pythag - I'm not sure if targeting active players is a good strategy, at least Day One. Could you explain you're read on TewnLeenk more?

Matunas - I agree with your recent analysis thus far, but I don't have enough to swing me either way.


<π/Rockin I'm getting the largest scum vibes from. TewnLeenk slightly, but I'm willing to chalk some of that to inexperience.

 

[Matunas]

Lore I agree that continuing the discussion in depth right now could derail the thread and doesn't help when we have a limited amount of time left. I'm simply trying to state that I think more information is better and Rockin seems to have taken stances against talking about things that I have seen as valuable on D1.

 

[Lore]

Matunas That's pretty fair, but from my point of view, we've had SB, Rockin, and Pythag (correct me if I'm missing anyone) voice objections to the discussion. Considering that we have a confirmed 2-scum game, that means that at minimum, we had at least 1 town player voice complaints. It's more likely that we have 2 town players in that pack of 3, if not 3.

So while the earlier bits from Rockin were still weird, I think I'm cool with letting this one slide. If he continues the trend D2, then I'll retroactively have a problem with his stance on the --- discussion.

The earlier bits are still weird though, and my scum lean remains. I'm thinking <pi is the scummier of the two, though.

 

[Rockin]

Rockin - Besides the post asking SB/WK to tone it down, your aggressiveness strikes me in a different way than SB/WK. I'm curious as to what you have to say in regards to Pythag's read on you if you've played together before. Role claiming I feel is important and dismissing it, unlike SB/WK, I have to question.

I don't have much to say on it. I feel that Pythag's reasoning (like several others who finds me scummy) is based on misreading/mis-information, and I did my best to clarify my actions.

If you're going to role claim, then do it. Breadcrumbing, putting some slight attention to it without telling off your stances, input on the discussion, who you find scummy for the last three days is just going to have me ignore you through most of day 1, especially when you say 'that's the most I can contribute.' If you didn't have that breadcrumb/role in mind, I would see that as potentially scummy.

 

[<π]

trihy (good nick) could be making a fake claim... but just given how early it was revealed... I dont know. Feels like a pretty bad play to me regardless of alignment.

--- why would you announce a role day 1?

 

[Strong Badam]

I have not yet objected to discussing the possible - - - gambit / 2d3 setup possibilities yet, but Matunas is right in his most recent post. It's worthy of discussion it's just less valuable now than other points as the day comes to a close. We should have fleshed out reads with justification from as many players as possible. When we have some role reveals, it'll be a lot more productive to try to figure out the possible setup.

Trihy I'll go through your D1 posts again when I have time, but Im guessing for now that you mean to say you are a Vanilla Townie.

 

[Matunas]

Pi (and perhaps strongbad) is grabbing things out of context, that strike me as deliberate misreadings in order to get momentum against one another.

Any specific examples of this?

 

[Lore]

I don't have much to say on it. I feel that Pythag's reasoning (like several others who finds me scummy) is based on misreading/mis-information, and I did my best to clarify my actions.

If you're going to role claim, then do it. Breadcrumbing, putting some slight attention to it without telling off your stances, input on the discussion, who you find scummy for the last three days is just going to have me ignore you through most of day 1, especially when you say 'that's the most I can contribute.' If you didn't have that breadcrumb/role in mind, I would see that as potentially scummy.

Rockin, have you given a lengthy read list with reasoning lately? If you have that's cool, I just want to be lazy and not do another thread dive lol.

If you haven't, mind giving one?

trihy (good nick) could be making a fake claim... but just given how early it was revealed... I dont know. Feels like a pretty bad play to me regardless of alignment.

--- why would you announce a role day 1?

<pi used "reflect heat onto another player by bringing up the first new discussion that doesn't involve himself or Rockin!"

It's not very effective...

 

[Strong Badam]

I did respond to Pythag 's statements about my posting style after he mentioned it the first time. I never got a response, and since then he has stated that he is liking me less and less. I'm not sure if that means he's liking my posting style less, or if he feels more strongly that I am scum.

For what it's worth, I feel like my posting style is pretty straight to the point. I quote things I find objectionable and ask for clarification/explain that something seems off. If I'm quoting a portion of a larger post, it usually means I didn't find anything weird or objectionable about the rest of their post. Like how I'm doing now! There are some exceptions, like if I'm just busy and I want to only reply to things I find really important to the game state
If the player pool would prefer me to respond to the larger body of text when possible, I'm happy to do my best to oblige.

Was this just missed by you, Pythag, or was it not satisfactory?

 

[Matunas]

<π you are one vote away from being lynched and I don't feel like your posts reflect someone who is trying to stick around. Anything you want to say about any of this? While I agree that ---'s claim is a key moment/thing to look at, right now it seems less pressing than what is currently going on with you. It has been talked about a good amount already. Do you think differently?

 

[Rockin]

Rockin, have you given a lengthy read list with reasoning lately? If you have that's cool, I just want to be lazy and not do another thread dive lol.

If you haven't, mind giving one?

I wouldn't be able to give much of a list, since a lot of my views on people are still undecided and I'll be heading to work in a few mins.. None have given me a definitive scum read (and if there is possible scum reads, it's borderline).

I will confirm that I still find you scummy werekill and the most likely I want to lynch (though D2 could change some things). --- I have as 'lazy.'

 

[---]

trihy (good nick) could be making a fake claim... but just given how early it was revealed... I dont know. Feels like a pretty bad play to me regardless of alignment.

--- why would you announce a role day 1?

Besides reads, I feel I would be of better service to the town in being as upfront as possible. Am not really making a gamble in my mind, though I can see the thought process behind much of what has been said and do not fault anyone for thinking that way.

Getting leads for the town to follow on Day One is important, arguably more so than gut feelings IMO.

 

[Lore]

I wouldn't be able to give much of a list, since a lot of my views on people are still undecided and I'll be heading to work in a few mins.. None have given me a definitive scum read (and if there is possible scum reads, it's borderline).

I will confirm that I still find you scummy werekill and the most likely I want to lynch (though D2 could change some things). --- I have as 'lazy.'

Fair, work is kiiiinda important. Have you ever expanded on why you find me scummy? The --- "lazy" bit has been covered already iirc.

If you have time before deadline, I'd really appreciate a decent list. We're pretty deep in D1 to not have more than 2 decent reads.

 

[Mediocre]

I'm on mobile and a bit distracted at the moment, so I'm not going to go into a ton of depth. As I've been reading, and after Pythag's recent past I think it's somewhat plausible that <pi's actions have been part of a scum gambit. Currently, I've moved <pi from probably town to neutral.

I still wouldn't vote for him except to prevent a no lynch, however.

 

[TewnLeenk]

<pi's posts seem way too casual for someone who's on the brink of being clapped

 

[Mediocre]

In my previous post I meant to type "Pythag's recent post", not "past".

 

[Tom]

Vote Count [5/9 to lynch]:
<π (4): Strong Bad, TewnLeenk, Werekill, Rockin
Rockin (1): <π
Not voting (4): Pythag, Mediocre, Matunas, ---

Day 1 will end without a lynch on Friday, March 29 at 5:30 CST, or when a player reaches 5/9 votes.

 

[---]

Vote: Rockin

Having me, or anyone, on ignore for most of Day One is a bit of a red flag. It's safe to say based on good/bad reactions so far that most have caught on to what I've been pushing, and claiming laziness on the part of others this late into the phase isn't a strong argument as compared to saying "I don't understand" or giving a gut feeling read for others to go off of.

<π I want to hear more from Day Two in regards to other players as well as TewnLeenk elaborating on their thoughts further.


Am going to sleep now (3rd Shift) so this will be my final post of the phase. I apologize in advance.

 

[Tom]

Vote Count [5/9 to lynch]:
<π (4): Strong Bad, TewnLeenk, Werekill, Rockin
Rockin (2): <π, ---
Not voting (3): Pythag, Mediocre, Matunas

Day 1 will end without a lynch on Friday, March 29 at 5:30 CST, or when a player reaches 5/9 votes.

 

[Lore]

Pythag Mediocre Matunas

It looks like hammer time soon, unless all three of you vote Rockin.

If two vote for Rockin, that leaves a lot of power for either the third person or someone on the <pi train. If two of you want to go Rockin, I strongly suggest discussing it before voting. Putting two players at l-1 is risky.

I would only swap if it means avoiding a no lynch situation. I am firmly confident in my vote against <pi, especially with the deflection attempt by him.

 

[Matunas]

As of right now it is my intention to hammer <π with around an hour to 30 min left unless something crazy changes. Just wanted to be clear with my intentions.

 

[Matunas]

You posted that while I was posting, but I think my post responds to it well.

 

[Pythag]

Matunas this is specifically what I was referring to

wowee.


SB are you trying to bully people off of Rockin? Or am I missing something.

It strikes me as as disingenuous, and grasping at straws

I know <pi went and explained his post, but it still didn’t take away the issue, which he tries to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Maybe wrong,

I’m only giving reads here.

@strongbad I’m on my phone rn, I’m trying to reread. I saw your post earlier, and you should note I’ve been grouping you two together, something about y’alls interaction bothers me.


I’ll look for a specific post, if I can’t then I’ll eat my words and only have suspicion on pi.

 

[Lore]

I'd like to request that in the future, please keep from declaring your intent to hammer.

If any non-voting scum or scum on another wagon were to see that, they could theoretically just coast and wait for your hammer. Especially this close to deadline.

If you disagree with that logic and think it's fine, I'd love to hear a counterargument. I may be completely wrong here.