We're going along the route of who had experiance in the Mafia game in smashboards, but you won't be forgotten
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Tomafia 3 - Game Over, Town wins!
- Thread starter Tom
- Start date
im not sure i understand this logic. the mafia is selected completely randomly right?
especially if you're saying there are only 2 "experienced" people, why are you sure one of them is in this group
clarify please
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
Marshy has experience too.
Most of what Rockin is sayin sounds pretty good. We prolly have 2 mafia, maybe an independent, although thats a def maybe. However, as suspiscious as this makes me sound, we can't limit ourselves to myself, Eor, and Marshy just because we have played before. Mafia choice is generally random, so I doubt it would be that easy.
Mexican, sorry mate, but playin this game in real life is almost completely different from playing online. As you will find, strategies that make the game in rl don't work here because everyone can choose their words very selectively so as to not give anything away. Plus you don't have expressions to go on. Almost all you have to go on is motives: why he voted for him, why she isn't posting, stuff like that. You have to determine whether something someone is doing is suspiscious or just a stupid action they did. This is another reason I doubt one of the three of us is for sure mafia: if we make a mistake, we can't hide behind a n00b cloud. So lets just forget that idea...
Most of what Rockin is sayin sounds pretty good. We prolly have 2 mafia, maybe an independent, although thats a def maybe. However, as suspiscious as this makes me sound, we can't limit ourselves to myself, Eor, and Marshy just because we have played before. Mafia choice is generally random, so I doubt it would be that easy.
Mexican, sorry mate, but playin this game in real life is almost completely different from playing online. As you will find, strategies that make the game in rl don't work here because everyone can choose their words very selectively so as to not give anything away. Plus you don't have expressions to go on. Almost all you have to go on is motives: why he voted for him, why she isn't posting, stuff like that. You have to determine whether something someone is doing is suspiscious or just a stupid action they did. This is another reason I doubt one of the three of us is for sure mafia: if we make a mistake, we can't hide behind a n00b cloud. So lets just forget that idea...
True, the Mafia is selected completly on random. It would make more sense however for the more experiance one to help guide the mid/new person of the group, considering putting two people new to the game would make it that one of them slips up and is caught easier within the game. If anything else, it's a hunch. You wouldn't send two boys to do a man's job, so as to help balance things out, one boy and one man goes, so the boy can learn the ropes/improve on his game.im not sure i understand this logic. the mafia is selected completely randomly right?
especially if you're saying there are only 2 "experienced" people, why are you sure one of them is in this group
clarify please
This is how I see it, anyway. It's not much, but it's a start if anything.
Ronike - I want to go on with more then just three people. I'm trying my best to give out a logical answer on what to do and who to focus on.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172223
If you look at this, you see that there was only two mafias in that game. That's why I feel there could be two mafia's in this game. A serial killer is not farfetched, since we have about 9 players in total.
For now, we don't have a definite target, but the few such as Eor, Marshy, Ronike, Matunas should take with caution at least.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172223
If you look at this, you see that there was only two mafias in that game. That's why I feel there could be two mafia's in this game. A serial killer is not farfetched, since we have about 9 players in total.
For now, we don't have a definite target, but the few such as Eor, Marshy, Ronike, Matunas should take with caution at least.
Ok so you are saying, eliminate the pro and make the nub operate on his own?
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
I agree that there are 2 mafia. It almost a certainty, I just was saying that there may be an independent, although thats a definite maybe. Thats what I meant. And although you can say that an experienced player is prolly in the mafia to help, keep in mind it works in reverse too. The experienced players can best identify the minute slip ups I described before, and thus have the best chance of catchin a mafia. However, you are now trying to discredit all of us because we "might" be mafia. Well, newsflash, there's probably a new player in the mafia too, so by your judgement we can't trust any new players then. So who can we trust? When you trust someone in this game, you should always be taking into account the possibility that they could be mafia. Just because they may be tho doesn't mean you never trust them. Theres a higher probability that any given person is on the side of the town.
Junglefever - that seems logical IMO. We have nothing else to really go on at the moment.
We have nothing to go on at the moment. And we shouldn't point fingers unless there's some type of logic in this. If we idle and do nothing, Tom would give us a deadline, just like what he did in the first Tom Mafia game. I'm trying to help move things along as best as possible with logic and information to back it up.
At least understand that, Ronike.
Not all, just a possible sum. I know the roles of mafia are completly random. As I said before, I'm trying to give out a hunch of such.
We have nothing to go on at the moment. And we shouldn't point fingers unless there's some type of logic in this. If we idle and do nothing, Tom would give us a deadline, just like what he did in the first Tom Mafia game. I'm trying to help move things along as best as possible with logic and information to back it up.
At least understand that, Ronike.
so it seems like the topic (or at least one of the topics) at hand is whether to vote off a relatively "experienced" member or a relatively "inexperienced" member for the first lynch
here are my two cents:
in response to ronike's argument that getting rid of an experienced member would also be getting rid of someone who's good at catching mistakes - this may be true, but i believe that to someone unexperienced, it is definitely easier to catch mistakes than to prevent making them (in other words, its a lot harder to be the mafia than to be a "good" townsperson)
having said this, completely rationally, i believe the first vote should indeed be someone of the "experienced" category (as rockin has slightly hinted at)
we all know this first vote is gonna be extremely risky and most likely, wrong (purely statistically speaking). therefore, i think we should look at the, in some sense, "most dangerous" player, and to me (again as some of you have mentioned - jungle and rockin), would be an experienced member
haha dont mean to stur up any tension, cuz of course we all want to stay in the game, and being accused is one of the worst feelings ever, but yea, just offering my train of thought
here are my two cents:
in response to ronike's argument that getting rid of an experienced member would also be getting rid of someone who's good at catching mistakes - this may be true, but i believe that to someone unexperienced, it is definitely easier to catch mistakes than to prevent making them (in other words, its a lot harder to be the mafia than to be a "good" townsperson)
having said this, completely rationally, i believe the first vote should indeed be someone of the "experienced" category (as rockin has slightly hinted at)
we all know this first vote is gonna be extremely risky and most likely, wrong (purely statistically speaking). therefore, i think we should look at the, in some sense, "most dangerous" player, and to me (again as some of you have mentioned - jungle and rockin), would be an experienced member
haha dont mean to stur up any tension, cuz of course we all want to stay in the game, and being accused is one of the worst feelings ever, but yea, just offering my train of thought
Yes I have experience at this game, and yes here on Smashboards.
Unvote: MexicanBJ
So what are our options people?
We can vote the veterans off as has been suggested. However this can be detrimental to the town seeing as we lose our best players as well and there is the chance that no vets are mafia (not likely with the small size of the game though).
We can organize a roleclaim centered around the cop and hope for the doc save. Again this can be horrible or great depending on the experience of the mafia and how the counterclaim/independent part plays into it. Typically I’d avoid this tactic but I have seen it play out well in small games before.
We can just go for the throat and take out someone with very little experience seeing as how they will be the least helpful (most likely). It sucks because it doesn’t really make them want to play mafia anymore and we’re just as likely to get a townie. Instead of this I’d usually recommend taking out an inactive player and not the new guys, but it is an option.
What else? Who cares if it is a horrible idea at this point? We need every option we can get and something that as a group we can rally around and work together doing.
Unvote: MexicanBJ
Rockin I agree completely. The problem with this is that it is great in theory and hard to actually apply. On Day one specifically it is hard to have a strategy that everyone can agree on or that makes sense. We have very limited options that are based off of logic and that people will be willing to go along with. We can lynch the most suspicious person, which at this point is no one, so it equates to a random lynch. We can go with the ever controversial no-lynch, something I personally disagree with because it benefits the town only in very limited situations. Or we can come up with a different strategy based on whether or not people are willing to go along.
I agree with Ronike here. Typically in a game this size (see Tomafia1) there will be two mafia. The likelihood of an independent is up in the air but I could see it happening here. Hopefully, and knowing Tom most likely, all the roles were chosen at random. Logic is our friend throughout the whole game, but specifically on Day one because we have nothing else to go off of. We have to come together as a group and decide what we want to do as a whole instead of all being off doing our own thing.
So what are our options people?
We can vote the veterans off as has been suggested. However this can be detrimental to the town seeing as we lose our best players as well and there is the chance that no vets are mafia (not likely with the small size of the game though).
We can organize a roleclaim centered around the cop and hope for the doc save. Again this can be horrible or great depending on the experience of the mafia and how the counterclaim/independent part plays into it. Typically I’d avoid this tactic but I have seen it play out well in small games before.
We can just go for the throat and take out someone with very little experience seeing as how they will be the least helpful (most likely). It sucks because it doesn’t really make them want to play mafia anymore and we’re just as likely to get a townie. Instead of this I’d usually recommend taking out an inactive player and not the new guys, but it is an option.
What else? Who cares if it is a horrible idea at this point? We need every option we can get and something that as a group we can rally around and work together doing.
Yeah, we don't want to discourage those who are new to the game. >>
And I'm not saying take out ALL the vets. Just one on the first day and see what happens (not to mention hope for the best).
Mantus, how does a no lynch benifit? I'm curious cause all I see is a free kill at night and we still would have no leads (IMO of course)
And I'm not saying take out ALL the vets. Just one on the first day and see what happens (not to mention hope for the best).
Mantus, how does a no lynch benifit? I'm curious cause all I see is a free kill at night and we still would have no leads (IMO of course)
<---- Signs up as a replacement.
matunas - i like a lot of what you're saying
but do you not agree with my statement that it's a lot harder for an inexperienced player to be a good mafia than it is for him/her to be a good mafia
if this assumption is true, which i believe it is, then it follows logically that we should use our first vote on someone of the experienced group (granted as you have stated and i have acknowledged, there are obvious risks with this, yet i believe my argument takes these risks into account and supports the LESS risky decision)
on the topic of voting off an "idle" person:
i was actually originally thinking of this strategy, and up until now, i thought it was a pretty good one since if they're idle, they're either going to be 1. a useless townsperson or 2. mafia
the only problem with this strategy that i now have just thought of, is the fact that usually mafia are usually pretty excited to be mafia lol, so assuming people have all read their roles (which i know isn't an extremely fair assumption), the mafia generally likely to participate (at least to SOME extent)
up for debate lol
but do you not agree with my statement that it's a lot harder for an inexperienced player to be a good mafia than it is for him/her to be a good mafia
if this assumption is true, which i believe it is, then it follows logically that we should use our first vote on someone of the experienced group (granted as you have stated and i have acknowledged, there are obvious risks with this, yet i believe my argument takes these risks into account and supports the LESS risky decision)
on the topic of voting off an "idle" person:
i was actually originally thinking of this strategy, and up until now, i thought it was a pretty good one since if they're idle, they're either going to be 1. a useless townsperson or 2. mafia
the only problem with this strategy that i now have just thought of, is the fact that usually mafia are usually pretty excited to be mafia lol, so assuming people have all read their roles (which i know isn't an extremely fair assumption), the mafia generally likely to participate (at least to SOME extent)
up for debate lol
strongly agree with the first point.
on the second point - a no lynch would benefit in that we would be guaranteeing not killing a townsperson
now one may argue (as you have) that after the killing, we'll still have no leads, but my guess is a lot of people would think the killings themselves (as i think ronlik said earlier) is a major part of this online version and so the killing would then be a lead.....
but yea lol no lynch is definitely risky business......
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
Keep in mind that the mafia gets a night kill. If we vote off an experienced player and then the mafia kills one off, we are down half of the good ones already and the mafia that much closer to winning.
As for the mafia being active, two things to that:
1) When I was mafia, I personally strove to remain as inactive as possible so as to not incriminate myself. People play it both ways, I know Eor likes to get in the ring when he is mafia or townie, its playing style, which could be used except almost all of you are new...
2) Being new players, fast activity can be attributed to excitement whether or not you are mafia. Its your first game after all...
I've never really liked no lynch, the one time I was a proponent of it, we ended up the next day with a complete random killed and no leads. So I personally vote no to that...
As for the mafia being active, two things to that:
1) When I was mafia, I personally strove to remain as inactive as possible so as to not incriminate myself. People play it both ways, I know Eor likes to get in the ring when he is mafia or townie, its playing style, which could be used except almost all of you are new...
2) Being new players, fast activity can be attributed to excitement whether or not you are mafia. Its your first game after all...
I've never really liked no lynch, the one time I was a proponent of it, we ended up the next day with a complete random killed and no leads. So I personally vote no to that...
No lynch seems interesting. The problem is that we don't know a lot of the tendencies of other players, so we may not know the motive of the mafia after this first kill, unless someone really says something they feel endangers them.
which now that i think about is highly probable if two of the experienced players are mafia.
No lynch may be as good as an option that we have.
which now that i think about is highly probable if two of the experienced players are mafia.
No lynch may be as good as an option that we have.
No lynch has been a heated debate on forum versions of Mafia for a long time now. Typically it is a bad idea all around. Here is an example of when it can be used effectively: No Lynch Strategy
As you can see this is not on the first day. I am quite adamant against a no lynch on Day one.
I have to disagree on both accounts. An inexperienced player can be detrimental to both the town and the mafia. In the case of the town if they receive a key role and use it poorly ie: doc or cop, then they could single handed bring down the town’s chance of survival. Even as a vanilla if they cause confusion, are overly hostile, inappropriately bandwagon/switch votes, all of these can cause just as much damage to the town. As a mafia I think it is harder as a new person but it allows them to see the entire scope of the game. They may not know who has what roles or if there is an independent, but they know who their allies are and are able to focus easier. Don’t get me wrong , it is much easier for a new person to slip up and give away clues that more experienced players would avoid, but I feel both sides are equal in this case.
Personally I disagree with the “lynch an experienced player” logic. It is a somewhat hollow strategy. I’ve seen players like Marshy be the key component to winning a game because they were able to use their experience to keep the town going. I understand from the viewpoint of those who haven’t played as much that these people can be intimidating and somewhat hard to read, but it doesn’t mean you should lynch them for it. Then again we do need to find someone to go for today.
I was in Hellhouse briefly before the game fell apart. Otherwise I’ve played in the Back Room and through various other mafia sites.
No lynch on day one sucks. We get absolutely nothing out of it and the odds are just worse the second day. We’re guaranteed to lose a townie during the night, unless the doc makes a lucky save, and we’re in the same position the next day minus a person. We have to roll the dice so to speak on day one and hope for the best. Personally I say we take out an inactive player whether they have experience at the game or not. Unless there is some kind of crazy event on the first day, it is luck. It’s best if we can come to some kind of general consensus about these matters, but it seems this rarely happens.
I’m not going to be on again until tomorrow unless my net gets fixed at home. I’ll see what has happened in the morning after class.
Stratford
Smash Champion
Hey sorry for being idle earlier, webwork johns. I'm inexperienced at online mafia. I think we definitely do not want a no lynch Day 1...
ok yea a consensus on what "strategy" to use on day 1 seems hard
i guess most people dont want a "no lynch" and the debate on "experience" vs "inexperience" really isn't going too far.....
perhaps the idle thing is the way to go....
opinions on this??
right now Marhsy is the only person who has yet to make 1 post....
so i'll start:
Vote: Marhsy
i guess most people dont want a "no lynch" and the debate on "experience" vs "inexperience" really isn't going too far.....
perhaps the idle thing is the way to go....
opinions on this??
right now Marhsy is the only person who has yet to make 1 post....
so i'll start:
Vote: Marhsy
Aye, yes sir, that's me.
I'm here MexicanBJ, just don't have much to contribute. I'll need to look at our options a little more and reread the thread, but I do agree that a no lynch sucks.
Stratford
Smash Champion
Hey, question...
Is there really anything we can base a lynch decision off on Day 1 such as the way someone said something or inactiveness, or is it truly just a Russian Roulette vote as some of us have already suggested? As far as I can tell a lynch vote would be random, but I'd be all for it. I guess we just take our chances on Day 1.
Is there really anything we can base a lynch decision off on Day 1 such as the way someone said something or inactiveness, or is it truly just a Russian Roulette vote as some of us have already suggested? As far as I can tell a lynch vote would be random, but I'd be all for it. I guess we just take our chances on Day 1.
Well, it's only been a day since he's last posted. Everyone seems active enough that we may have to use a different strategy than voting for inactivity. For now anyway.
Also thinking that one of the people Rockin listed is mafia just because they've played before won't do any good for reasons others have said. So if anyone with night abilities is considering using it only because of what he said, I think they should instead use their own smarts to figure out who seems more suspicious, worth protecting, etc.
They'll probably be wrong in their choice because it's Day 1, but that's expected.
They'll probably be wrong in their choice because it's Day 1, but that's expected.
Assuming he isn't just imitating how paranoid people can be when it comes to suspicions in these games, he may be a townie trying to get others skeptical or a mafioso trying to get others to see Ronike as suspicious without coming off as too argumentative. The latter really seems like something a mafioso would do so I can see why he's been voted for it, but what does everybody think about it?
Omis
my friends were skinny
Omis? checking in. Apparently I cant go to sleep then go to school without being inactive. -_-
@Marshy
I think he was just doing the first option.
@Eor
I have always disliked the first day because it is so random and jokey.
@Marshy
I think he was just doing the first option.
@Eor
I have always disliked the first day because it is so random and jokey.
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
And tis not that you went to school and slept, its just that, especially this early when you are supposed to be excited about the game, its generally a given that you check it as soon as you can... And plus those of us that aren't lucky enough to be in college generally get opportunities to check in school...
yea.....confusion?!?!?
talking in the third person? or does he just not know what's going on, lol o.O
Regardless of what people are saying, it's incredibly tough to make a decision at this point. who haven't we heard from?
Omis
my friends were skinny
Lol, my schools policy is way too strick when it comes to computer usage.
Im throwing you off with epic mindgames.
Also what Marshy posted could have gone bothe ways. He said "he" not Omis meaning the atecedent could me or my sucject.
Omis
my friends were skinny
Sorry forgot which of you was Ronike.
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
Ok, there is noobyness, but people can think, and since you are a smash debater, I think you could well be a mafioso using your "new" status to hide behind so you can throw suspiscions around and just not contribute in general. And I don't mean that you haven't been posting, shift happens, but that every post so far has been stupid statements, stupid FOSing (finger of suspiscion), or 1 sentencers that don't contribute anything. Even if you aren't a mafia (which although possible, is less of a probability than the other players at this point ), you are not a good player and it would likely benefit us to be rid of you.
Vote: Omis?
Vote: Omis?
Omis
my friends were skinny
Options at the moment that seem to have gotten an okay following.
1. No lynch
2. Lynch the least expierenced/inactive mafia player. In this case Stratford.
3.Lynch the most expierenced player first.
4. Lynch Omis?
My opinions on each.
1.Would definitely give us more time to examine each other. However, on day two we still would have near no lead. An iffy option.
2. In my opinion the best option. So far Stratford has not really contributed much analysis/activety/ideas. He just seems like an okay lynch choice.
3.Dont not go with this option. To me it seems like an option that newer players like me to use to feel safe. It has no real merits in my book. The expierenced person would help both ways if still alive.
4. I dont really see why Im a target besides me siding whith jungle but whatever.
VOTE Stratford
1. No lynch
2. Lynch the least expierenced/inactive mafia player. In this case Stratford.
3.Lynch the most expierenced player first.
4. Lynch Omis?
My opinions on each.
1.Would definitely give us more time to examine each other. However, on day two we still would have near no lead. An iffy option.
2. In my opinion the best option. So far Stratford has not really contributed much analysis/activety/ideas. He just seems like an okay lynch choice.
3.Dont not go with this option. To me it seems like an option that newer players like me to use to feel safe. It has no real merits in my book. The expierenced person would help both ways if still alive.
4. I dont really see why Im a target besides me siding whith jungle but whatever.
VOTE Stratford
"Not so fast, Starfox (Ronike)"
Give Omis? a break. He probably hasn't had the chance to read up on it. If anything, he probably gotten the smash debater thingie by request. When I first saw him (In one of FMOI's online tourys), he had a normal membership, and this was months ago when I last saw him. Judging from the first few pages, I don't think he goes to the debator forums much (or at least talks like a debator). He has logic, but not as detailed as to some known smash debaters, I guess lol. Putting down a person by saying he's 'not a good player' is just bad manners >=/. I don't sense much of a mafia vibe coming from Omis...least not yet
Hey Omis, you best do something to prove your worth. You got 2 votes so far. Only 3 more till your eliminated. =/
Give Omis? a break. He probably hasn't had the chance to read up on it. If anything, he probably gotten the smash debater thingie by request. When I first saw him (In one of FMOI's online tourys), he had a normal membership, and this was months ago when I last saw him. Judging from the first few pages, I don't think he goes to the debator forums much (or at least talks like a debator). He has logic, but not as detailed as to some known smash debaters, I guess lol. Putting down a person by saying he's 'not a good player' is just bad manners >=/. I don't sense much of a mafia vibe coming from Omis...least not yet
Hey Omis, you best do something to prove your worth. You got 2 votes so far. Only 3 more till your eliminated. =/
I disagree with the logic that it helps both sides to not eliminate an experienced player. Theres more than 1, so we can utilize who ever is left after the mafia has to kill someone. Right now killing someone who is just not replying might not mean too much...I don't know. Brainjack said a while ago Mafia members tend to try to stay active to divert attention a way from each other, and this is much easier since they can choose their words wisely on the internet. I'm not fuly convinced on anyone to vote yet :/
to be noted. he most likely got a debator by request. anyone can be a debator. **** im a debator.
Omis
my friends were skinny
Let us assume that there is a three member mafia and everyone else is town. Odds are that only one of the experienced players (going by the consensus that there are three) will be in the mafia. That leaves two for the town side. If we lynch an experienced townie on accident than we are left with a town experienced and an experienced. If that occurs than Mafia will IMO most likely night kill the remaining townie experienced player. This leaves them with the only experienced player and the whole town in a state of shock. We dont want that to happen.
Considering Stratford is new, a good mafia tactic to him would be to lay low while I get accused. When he last checked in the debate over my loyalty was under heavy fire. Most townies would try to stay logged on to determine if I was town or not while the mafia could lay back. Overall Stratford is the best choice to lynch IMO.