Toad Discussion

[Krytha]

Who cares if he was a move, Wario, Pit and Metknight were trophies, that also seems ilke quite a jump, he had a fighting role in Mario Bros 2 ans was the hero of Wario's Woods, he is a fighter,he has moves, a fanbase, a starring role, he'd be unique and, since more Mario characters is probably going to happen, and the fact that he is the most likely one, that pretty much qualifies his for a spot in brawl. Not to mention he got robbed by Wario (strong and bad jumper, Wario stole his stats). You can express why they wouldn't make a splash, but I can express why they would.

You aren't helping your case at all. Wario, Pit and Metaknight have had larger roles than Toad in their respective histories. I agree that he would be unique... he is like Pokemon from Marioland. You say that Wario has robbed him of his stats... well, Wario is already in the game so why have a mushroom clone of Wario?

SSBM already had the most Mario characters out of all the franchises present in the game. SSBB likely will keep Mario characters as the leading number of playable chars. But with all the people crying for Geno, Mallow, Hammer Bros. etc, the fact remains that not everyone will make the cut. There will be more Mario franchise characters, that much is certain... but I'm not sure how much clout Toad actually pulls from a character standpoint.

 

[Iggy K]

I'm not saying Toad and Wario would be clones, I'm saying how Wario now is how Toad used to be, plus I think Toad is more of a main Mario character, he's like one of the big 8, and unlike the other Mario characters who haven't been added, he has a starring role and I think he is the most wanted Mario character yet to be confirmed, plus I already gave other reasons why he should be added before other Mario ones, and other members have brought up pretty good points in this thread why he should to.

 

[Krytha]

Toad is not a main Mario character. He is sidelines material. His ONE "starring role" in Wario Woods was alongside Birdo and Wanda in a tetris-style puzzle game. This hardly makes him the kind of dynamic or exciting character most other SSBB chars ARE. Notice he was also playable in Super Mario Bros. 2 -> Since then he has always been on the side except in party games where they need more characters. The fact that he hasn't gotten any real individual attention since the beginning of the games indicate that the producers don't feel that he works well as a MAIN protagonist. With the sort of obscurity validation that you are employing, characters like Birdo, Tingle and Petey Piranha will also be appearing in SSBB...

 

[dotdotdot!]

Toad is not a main Mario character. He is sidelines material. His ONE "starring role" in Wario Woods was alongside Birdo and Wanda in a tetris-style puzzle game. This hardly makes him the kind of dynamic or exciting character most other SSBB chars ARE. Notice he was also playable in Super Mario Bros. 2 -> Since then he has always been on the side except in party games where they need more characters. The fact that he hasn't gotten any real individual attention since the beginning of the games indicate that the producers don't feel that he works well as a MAIN protagonist. With the sort of obscurity validation that you are employing, characters like Birdo, Tingle and Petey Piranha will also be appearing in SSBB...

But those three were never playable.

Listen, IMO, here is the Mario Hierarchy:

Big four:
1. Mario (Duh)
2. Luigi (Sidekick and brother)
3. Bowser (Everyone needs a Villan)
4. Peach (The Goal, damsel in distress, and love interest)

Then we move on the the lesser characters:

5. Yoshi (Debatable if he's really a Mario character anymore)
6. Toad (In nearly every game, is featured in numorous supporting roles, just like Yoshi)
7. Bowser Jr. (Is featured prominently in new Mario games)
8. Wario (Was featured in ONE Mario game before splitting off into his own series. Still routinely used in conjunction with Mario)
9. Daisy (Was featured as the damsel in ONE Mario game, then only recently revived. Also of note: She's the princess in the Movie)
10. Waluigi (Made up for the Mario sports and party games. Has no featured roles in any Main Marios)

Then Minions and truly minor characters:

11. Birdo (Has personality, and is sort of a love interest for Yoshi. If Waluigi was named anything else, she would be above him in a shot)
12. Kamek (Only less important than Birdo because of the volume of games featuring Birdo)
13. Random Bosses (Peatey Piranna goes here)
14. Random Enemies (Hammer Bros, Goombas, and Koopa Troopas go here)
15. Toadette (Mistake, disregard her)


As he is technically 3rd party, I didn't include Geno, just because his chances are influenced by an entirely different set of rules.

Thats my version of the Mario pecking order, judging from my experience playing Mario games (Since Mario 1, 2, and 3 on the NES, mind). You can disagree if you like, but that is how I see it, and you should have a good reason if you want to change my mind.

 

[Shark X]

Toad is one of the main four, not counting Bowser, an apparently Yoshi who replaced him. Otherwise, Toad was one of the main four original heores.

Goesl ike this, Mario, Luigi, Toad (I believe he was before Peach on the character select), Toadstool, Yoshi...wait, there's only five O.o

I hated when they replaced 'Mushroom Kids' with 'Toads', degrading poor Toad by turning him into a species. At least the Mario Kart Toad is the same Toad from the original Mario group. Other than that, the last time I believe Toad has been in a Mario adventure game was Mario Bros 3. Mario 64 is when they started degrading Toad (as well as the last time Peach was refered to by her last name, as well as kicking Luigi out of the series altogether...I kinda hate Mario 64 now).

 

[Neuvost]

Maybe his up-B could start with him crouching, and you have to hold up and b until he starts glowing, then once you release, he jumps super high, sort of like how you could jump in SMB2.
Depending on how long you hold it, he'll jump higher. So instead of using your recovery move when near the edge, like with Mario or Kirby, you'll have to time it more.

I like! That's way better than my suggestion for Toad's up-B! (Check the bottom of page 9 for my ideas.)

And dotdotdot!, I like the way you reference Toad's games more in your special moves than I do, but things like, pulling out a kart seem kind of ... too much.

 

[Krytha]

Obviously it's impossible to dissuade someone if they do not wish to be convinced. You have your reasons for wanting Toad, and I, mine for not wanting him. To me, Toad is something of a triviality - or - quantity does not make quality. That's pretty much it from me.

 

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

Ooh, this debate is getting heated. This is Toad discussion after all, it's only fair that all points are brought out for and against him. I view it this way, though. Provided they add one character from each series, and I would be surprised if they only added one, Toad has the most: a) personality b) fans, and 3)potential of the remaining cast of Mario characters. When Melee first cane out, I heard every arguement being made here against Toad, except the arguement focused on Peach. My friends couldn't believed they let her in the game. And she was seen as nothing more than a 'filler' character. I hear all the arguements against Toad, and I agree that some of them are valid, and even well thought out.(Especially Krytha's posts, where he actually posts arguments and ideas instead of just calling Toad "A gay idea") but I think if you look at all the evidence, a very strong arguement can be made in favor of him.

Look...tropies are very different to actual IN GAME moves. Peach is probably going to be in Brawl, and when she presses B, she is probably going to take out her little mushroom slave to block incoming evils. It would just be too weird and also POOR and uneven conceptual design if Toad was a playable character and also appeared as Peach's B attack. It's like Mario losing his cape in Brawl and hitting his opponents with a Yoshi instead.

Toadsworth, Toadette, her umbrella Parry, she could just replace Toad with someone else for her B. No biggie.

 

[Iggy K]

But those three were never playable.

Listen, IMO, here is the Mario Hierarchy:

Big four:
1. Mario (Duh)
2. Luigi (Sidekick and brother)
3. Bowser (Everyone needs a Villan)
4. Peach (The Goal, damsel in distress, and love interest)

Then we move on the the lesser characters:

5. Yoshi (Debatable if he's really a Mario character anymore)
6. Toad (In nearly every game, is featured in numorous supporting roles, just like Yoshi)
7. Bowser Jr. (Is featured prominently in new Mario games)
8. Wario (Was featured in ONE Mario game before splitting off into his own series. Still routinely used in conjunction with Mario)
9. Daisy (Was featured as the damsel in ONE Mario game, then only recently revived. Also of note: She's the princess in the Movie)
10. Waluigi (Made up for the Mario sports and party games. Has no featured roles in any Main Marios)

Then Minions and truly minor characters:

11. Birdo (Has personality, and is sort of a love interest for Yoshi. If Waluigi was named anything else, she would be above him in a shot)
12. Kamek (Only less important than Birdo because of the volume of games featuring Birdo)
13. Random Bosses (Peatey Piranna goes here)
14. Random Enemies (Hammer Bros, Goombas, and Koopa Troopas go here)
15. Toadette (Mistake, disregard her)


As he is technically 3rd party, I didn't include Geno, just because his chances are influenced by an entirely different set of rules.

Thats my version of the Mario pecking order, judging from my experience playing Mario games (Since Mario 1, 2, and 3 on the NES, mind). You can disagree if you like, but that is how I see it, and you should have a good reason if you want to change my mind.

I don't really think Yoshi and Wario are Mario characters anymore, and Kamke is more of a Yoshi character to me.

Krytha-Fair enough.

 

[dotdotdot!]

I don't really think Yoshi and Wario are Mario characters anymore, and Kamke is more of a Yoshi character to me.

Krytha-Fair enough.

All right, that's fair I suppose (Though it's a very fine line. When exactly does a character named Wario manage to break away from his (more or less) namesake?), but somewhat Moot, and serves to make Toad's chances even better.

And Krytha, It may not seem it, but I am glad you are able to argue your position well, like Jenkins said. I may sound ungrateful, but thats just 'cuz we're on opposite sides here.

Anyway, Yeah. Toad. Hooray.

 

[Masque]

The fact that Toad (the true Toad) is so prominent in the series adds to my frustration when he is left out in favor of lesser, undeveloped characters like Waluigi and (especially) the inane and mundane, effing Petey Piranha. Adding Toad truly will round out the Mario roster...the only other "Mario" characters I can see being added for completion's sake would be Birdo (as a counterpart to Yoshi), Bowser Jr. (sadly, but perhaps as a counterpart to Bowser), Geno, and Mallow, the latter two due to overwhelmingly outspoken fans. I don't believe Waluigi stands as much of a chance as other might like to think, simply because he certainly won't be able to take anything from Wario in this installment; and since that's all he has ever done anyhow, Waluigi will probably be ostracized for this edition. Just my two cents. Go Toad. =)

 

[DokturSea]

Man, there is too much Petey Piranha hate in the world. I like him. I hope he's in Brawl like no other.

I also hope Toad makes more of an appearance in Brawl than just a move, a background character, and a hoax. But, I have a lot of trouble seeing him as a fighter. I would totally play him if he was a fighter, since he's one of my fav Nintendo characters of all time, but I'd also be happy if they implemented some new referee system and had him as a NPC as the ref. You know, like he'd appear before each match in a black and white striped shirt and would count down to the beginning of the match. I think that'd be pretty neat-o.

Haha. I just read the suggestion of Peach using Toadsworth as he B move instead of Toad. I fully support that. Let's see that old man do something else than just sit around and yell at Mario for not rescuing Peach fast enough.

 

[Masque]

Man, there is too much Petey Piranha hate in the world. I like him. I hope he's in Brawl like no other.

I also hope Toad makes more of an appearance in Brawl than just a move, a background character, and a hoax. But, I have a lot of trouble seeing him as a fighter. I would totally play him if he was a fighter, since he's one of my fav Nintendo characters of all time, but I'd also be happy if they implemented some new referee system and had him as a NPC as the ref. You know, like he'd appear before each match in a black and white striped shirt and would count down to the beginning of the match. I think that'd be pretty neat-o.

Haha. I just read the suggestion of Peach using Toadsworth as he B move instead of Toad. I fully support that. Let's see that old man do something else than just sit around and yell at Mario for not rescuing Peach fast enough.

Eff word. My post just got messed up, but whatever.

That is exactly the type of role that Nintendo shoves Toad into all too often. Always on the sidelines. Toad as a ref would just irk me to no end. Neat-o? Neat-no. And a big ixnay on the Eteypiranhapay. But you're still entitled to your opinions (however wrong they may be ).

On a happier note, however, I fully agree with you on the Toadsworth thing. In fact, I've said that since I saw Toad's unfortunate position in Melee. Kudos for that one.

 

[Drewz]

Toad in SSBB? NO! The boy has no legs, he's a servant and he isn't on the same scale of Mario, Bowser, Link or even Kirby. I think he should play a role in the game, like the host or presenter. Seeing his little face on the menus, etc.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

A fighter NO. But he may have an role in the stadium or event match thingies. Multiplayer Event Matches and Stadium for BRAWL!!!!

 

[Tiamat]

Toad in SSBB? NO! The boy has no legs, he's a servant and he isn't on the same scale of Mario, Bowser, Link or even Kirby.

Then it's a good thing Toad doesn't have to compete against Mario, Bowser, Link, or even Kirby for a new character slot.

I'm not sure how much I want him in the game, but the chances of Sakurai not including at least one new Mario character are pretty slim, and Toad pretty much has top billing over the remaining ones when it comes to being recurring, iconic, and popular (although maybe Petey Pirahna will get in instead because Nintendo hates the world or something)

 

[sonic&shadow]

toad was never confirmed but wario was were did you get that info of toad being confirmed

 

[Shark X]

Maybe not on the same scale as Mario, Link, or Kirby, but Toad is on the same exact scale as Peach.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Not really, Peach was important to Mario because she is sort of like Mario's love interest. Toad is just the one who does a terrible job of protecting her and follows her everywhere.

In the Mario RPGS, Toads are a small race who are the townspeople of the Mario world. They have minor roles such as running shops and being Peach's servants. It's a waste of a character space for the much more unique characters from the Nintendo universe.

 

[xianfeng]

Toad will proberly make it with no new mario characters announced he has a good chance

 

[FlipTroopa]

Firstly, Toad was a hoax character for Melee.

Secondly, the idea that Toad was confirmed is a blown up "telephone game" after somebody read that Nintendo Power article. Nintendo Power, months before Brawl was announced, did a quick poll of their own staff and the two most popular suggestions for characters were Wario and Toad. This really doesn't mean anything, because NP isn't that much more in the know than we should be, and Brawl wasn't even being developed, I believe, at the time of that issue's printing (they started Brawl in October '05).

Toad has always been my favorite Mario character, hands down. I was always the little guy in Mario 2 and Kart ever since I was a tyke, so I would kill to see him throwing down in Smash Bros. The thing is, they took away his individuality as of late, so he may fall into the realm of generics. Not saying he's unlikely, no: he's likely. But because of the fact that there's now the "Toads", as opposed to a "Toad" (why couldn't they have stuck with mushroom people for their stupid name? ), he's not that entirely unique anymore. Even his dress and voice aren't unique anymore, and in Baseball they turned him into the generic red mushroom person (screw them all being Toad ) from Sunshine.

So Toad's been pretty... well, not himself lately. I think it does effect his chances in comparison to other Mario characters that still have retained individuality.

 

[McFox]

I don't want Toad in, and not because he doesn't have legs, or he would have a lame moveset, etc. (all of which are true incidentally) I just don't want him in because I don't like him.

 

[xianfeng]

Nintendo screwed up almost everything on the gamecube it was crap compared to the 64, which explains toad Identy crisis, DK's mental disabilities, Petey Piranah and Daisy cutting her hair and loosing her tan.

 

[icymatt]

I don't see how they 'screwed up' anything. The games were fun, and that's what matters.(BTW, I have no idea what xianfeng was refering to specifically.)

I don't really want Toad, because I just don't find him interesting.

 

[FlipTroopa]

Nintendo screwed up almost everything on the gamecube it was crap compared to the 64, which explains toad Identy crisis, DK's mental disabilities, Petey Piranah and Daisy cutting her hair and loosing her tan.

Ironically, Miyamoto didn't like the N64 era for Mario, at least outside of Mario 64, Kart, and Paper. He made a comment I remember reading that Mario was getting way out of focus, and that he really was coming off as some silly character with all these original people and completely non-Mario worlds. I think he was specifically referring to the Party games and Golf/Tennis, because, even though he liked the gameplay, he wasn't too keen on Mario selling himself short.

And you gotta admit, the GCN versions of the Mario spinoff titles are a lot more detailed and "Mario" than their N64 counterparts. They even established a regular cast beyond the Mario Kart 8, which is pretty cool if you ask me.

 

[Iggy K]

Flip, I know how you feel, he did use to be uniqe, I know this probably doesn't , but in the comic's, Toad actually is uniqe, as the rest of the mushroom people look exactly like mushrooms...man, I wish they could of kept that design for the mushroom people instead of making them look like Toad.

 

[FlipTroopa]

Flip, I know how you feel, he did use to be uniqe, I know this probably doesn't , but in the comic's, Toad actually is uniqe, as the rest of the mushroom people look exactly like mushrooms...man, I wish they could of kept that design for the mushroom people instead of making them look like Toad.

I've actually read a lot of the Mario comics and manga, and yeah, he is very unique in the fanon. But in the games, he's not, and that's likely where it counts

They did at least make an effort in the two newer Kart games to keep him unique. It's just painful to see such a childhood favorite become another face in the crowd

 

[Iggy K]

They did at least make an effort in the two newer Kart games to keep him unique. It's just painful to see such a childhood favorite become another face in the crowd

...they did? Or are you referring to Toadette in Double Dash?...maybe they could possibly be trying to make him stand out more.

 

[FlipTroopa]

...they did? Or are you referring to Toadette in Double Dash?...maybe they could possibly be trying to make him stand out more.

Well, he still appears in both Kart games as his own racer, and wearing the blue vest with the red spotted cap. In Baseball he had a red vest to match the cap, like that generic Toad in Sunshine. So what I was saying was that they at least bothered, in those games, to keep him separate.

Even the Mario RPGs have all the mushroom people wearing Toad's colors, and only the original Mario RPG ever pointed out which one was THE Toad.

Edit:

I guess I should add that Toadsworth now appears in Toad's place as Peach's advisor, as he follows her around in Paper Mario 2, both Mario and Luigi games, and did so where he originated: Sunshine. Toadette gave Mario his new items in Paper Mario 2 as well, in a role we would've expected Toad to take.

Oddly enough, of all the Mario games, Party games are the only ones that still regularly differentiate between Toad and the other "Toads." It took them 5 games to make him playable, but ****it: they did something right

 

[Shark X]

Yeah, it's sad what they did to Toad. They did the same thing to Toad that they did to Yoshi, but at least THE Yoshi still stands out. THE Toad (Mario 2, Mario 3, Mario RPG, Mario Karts, Wario's Woods, etc), is as Flip said, lost in the crowds. Toad was around before Yoshi, yet Yoshi pratically replaced Toad as part of the main Mario cast.

 

[FlipTroopa]

Yeah, it's sad what they did to Toad. They did the same thing to Toad that they did to Yoshi, but at least THE Yoshi still stands out. THE Toad (Mario 2, Mario 3, Mario RPG, Mario Karts, Wario's Woods, etc), is as Flip said, lost in the crowds. Toad was around before Yoshi, yet Yoshi pratically replaced Toad as part of the main Mario cast.

Don't get me started on Yoshi >.> At least Melee had the heart to keep him true to his World design, instead of making him a crappy baby. The whole point of their look in Story was that they were babies, and not full grown Yoshis. Why did all of them have to start looking like that v.v OH, that's right: laziness. Because it's easier to use voice samples than record new material, and it's easier to share models than make something up. Oy...

 

[Zodiak-Lucien]

I agree with flip troopa, toad has also been my favorite mario character. I had used him in any game he is playable in. He is one of the few people I will be dissapointed if he isnt in brawl

 

[Iggy K]

Man, you just super-bumped this, but I pretty much agree with you.

 

[dotdotdot!]

Haha! the triumphant return of the Toad thread!

 

[rock_in_reo]

Don't get me started on Yoshi >.> At least Melee had the heart to keep him true to his World design, instead of making him a crappy baby. The whole point of their look in Story was that they were babies, and not full grown Yoshis. Why did all of them have to start looking like that v.v OH, that's right: laziness. Because it's easier to use voice samples than record new material, and it's easier to share models than make something up. Oy...

darn Nintendo... why did they have to genralize my favourite Mario Kart character??

 

[Jenkins: Spy Monkey]

Oddly enough, of all the Mario games, Party games are the only ones that still regularly differentiate between Toad and the other "Toads." It took them 5 games to make him playable, but ****it: they did something right

That is exactly why Toad's moveset should reflect Mario Party. If his moveset is comprised of pretty much Mario Party and Super Mario 2, then I would think people would recognise him as "THE Toad." As far as Toad being less of a unique character, I blame Toadsworth for usurping his role, and want him to replace Toad as Peach's counter attack. But Nintendo DOES seem to acknowledge that there is a stand-alone Toad character. So...there's at least that going for him -_-

 

[Peeze]

yeah um not to sound negative or nothing but are you people serious? Toad!? what the heck would that little gut bring to the table not already there. Personally i think he should stick to the only game he's good in MARIO KART!

 

[EnFerris]

When I was thinking to myself what, if any Mario Characters should be added, it was between Toad, Fawful, and E. Gadd for me. Ultimately I decided hat Toad Should definitely be in because he's the only main playable mario character left. There was a Super Mario 2 Event Match in Melee. It made me sick because it was Mario, Peach, and Luigi Against Bowser. Toad was conspicuously absent.

While I'm usually not for obscure or minor characters to be in, I think Toad's place in SMB2 classes him as neglected or unappreciated.

I was thinking that since his main advantage was his ability to get into secret places in SMB2, one of his moves should allow him to shrink, like he was hit with a Mini Mushroom, but his damage stays the same. So he would be fast and hard to hit, but if you landed a hit on him, he'd be screwed. I also like the idea of a 'Surprise' Recovery move, except I'm not sure if it should do too much damage. Toad's A moves are going to be quite powerful, after all. I also approve of pulling out shy guys who walk around and damage people if touched like goombas. They should hurt Toad if he's not careful, though.

And if it makes people feel better about having too many Mario Characters, they can think of Yoshi and Wario as spin-off franchises. Sakurai did make their emblems different for a reason, after all.

 

[Peeze]

When I was thinking to myself what, if any Mario Characters should be added, it was between Toad, Fawful, and E. Gadd for me. Ultimately I decided hat Toad Should definitely be in because he's the only main playable mario character left.

Paper mario is a playable character and he has a chance of getting in.

 

[Iggy K]

Paper mario is a playable character and he has a chance of getting in.

Paper Mario is as likely as an L-shaped block, Toad, Geno and Bowser. JR are the only Mario characters left who have a chance of getting in.