Toad/Captain Toad for Smash, Toad Brigade Assemble!

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

anyone else thinks thats a little rich coming from the man who added four marths?

I don't. Cause I see two Marths and two Roys in practice. Roy stopped playing very similar to Marth after he returned in 4. It's more comparable to Falcon and Ganondorf, who despite being a clone, played quite a bit differently even in Melee. And then Brawl completely changed him to the point that their playstyles weren't even slightly similar. Marth and Roy had to be played with a different mindset from the start anyway, but weren't that changed up till 4 gave him new animations and hitboxes, making them only similar, well, in the concept of "where you hit with the blade" only.

Mario and Luigi are another great example. Barely different in 64. In Melee, they were so split off that you couldn't remotely play them in a similar fashion. Too huge of changes. Dr. Mario on the other hand filled that niche of playing similar to Mario(and then 4 split them off too. They oddly enough are two of Mario's clones who are massively different from the base now. I mean, not counting just characters who used Mario as a base either, cause Ness already shows a base doesn't mean outright clone. It's just a starting point).

Echoes only play similar to their base by default. Clones can go either way, but the thing they share is similar animations and a skeleton, not a similar playstyle necessarily. Another example is that all three Links play massively differently, despite both using a form of Link as a base. Young Link is just a smaller version of Link, but with a huge difference in playstyle. Toon Link used Young Link as a base, while being the same animation types from Link moreso as what can be considered a tradition(since both are based upon Link, they have the same special move types more or less).

Four Marths is a funny joke. But only as a joke. It doesn't hold up in practice as an argument cause it's not actually true. The data just doesn't support it.

 

[fogbadge]

Nope. Cause I see two Marths and two Roys in practice. Roy stopped playing very similar to Marth after he returned in 4. It's more comparable to Falcon and Ganondorf, who despite being a clone, played quite a bit differently even in Melee. And then Brawl completely changed him to the point that their playstyles weren't even slightly similar. Marth and Roy had to be played with a different mindset from the start anyway, but weren't that changed up till 4 gave him new animations and hitboxes, making them only similar, well, in the concept of "where you hit with the blade" only.

Mario and Luigi are another great example. Barely different in 64. In Melee, they were so split off that you couldn't remotely play them in a similar fashion. Too huge of changes. Dr. Mario on the other hand filled that niche of playing similar to Mario(and then 4 split them off too. They oddly enough are two of Mario's clones who are massively different from the base now. I mean, not counting just characters who used Mario as a base either, cause Ness already shows a base doesn't mean outright clone. It's just a starting point).

Echoes only play similar to their base by default. Clones can go either way, but the thing they share is similar animations and a skeleton, not a similar playstyle necessarily. Another example is that all three Links play massively differently, despite both using a form of Link as a base. Young Link is just a smaller version of Link, but with a huge difference in playstyle. Toon Link used Young Link as a base, while being the same animation types from Link moreso as what can be considered a tradition(since both are based upon Link, they have the same special move types more or less).

Four Marths is a funny joke. But only as a joke. It doesn't hold up in practice as an argument cause it's not actually true. The data just doesn't support it.

well it’s good it was a joke and not an argument then

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

well it’s good it was a joke and not an argument then

You worded it in a way where it could be either case.

General rule of them is that most jokes are hard to notice if it's basically a straight statement. A good way to make sure they know what you mean is adding a simple smiley. Context is legit hard to read on the internet. As is tone.

But yeah, funny joke, less interesting as an argument, heh.

That said, since it's been said a lot that people would've liked Toad over Dr. Mario... exactly who could Toad play very similar to enough to be a regular clone? Since assuming he could get in in Melee, he'd have to require less work than others to make it into that particular set of characters. I'd say Mario, but the issue is he only loosely resembles that concept of basic platforming, as he doesn't actually do stuff like power-ups till way later on, and his core playable appearance was in Super Mario Bros. 2 USA, which... is the oddball of the platformers. So he isn't going to be doing anything like Super Jump Punch, Cape, etc. Among the 20 normal characters, is there anyone he could outright branch off of? I feel like Brawl might've worked better in that regard, since there's more semi-clones compared to regular clones design-wise. Using Mario as the base for movement, but highly different moves. Though I think that might've released well before the New Super Mario Bros. games which put the Toad species into the regular abilities similar to Mario, the first time they actually had similarities that could be translated well to Smash. 4 also works. By then Dr. Mario is just another clone vet, but Toad easily could take from other characters as is. They could justify the Turnips from Peach now, though that's about the only move he outright does. Super Jump Punch is not incorrect, but there's stuff like the Propeller power-up that is not just used somewhat in artwork, but also would change it up more so he only barely resembles some characters. Focusing on power-ups works as well, since there's no Mario character that does that.

 

[fogbadge]

You worded it in a way where it could be either case.

General rule of them is that most jokes are hard to notice if it's basically a straight statement. A good way to make sure they know what you mean is adding a simple smiley. Context is legit hard to read on the internet. As is tone.

But yeah, funny joke, less interesting as an argument, heh.

That said, since it's been said a lot that people would've liked Toad over Dr. Mario... exactly who could Toad play very similar to enough to be a regular clone? Since assuming he could get in in Melee, he'd have to require less work than others to make it into that particular set of characters. I'd say Mario, but the issue is he only loosely resembles that concept of basic platforming, as he doesn't actually do stuff like power-ups till way later on, and his core playable appearance was in Super Mario Bros. 2 USA, which... is the oddball of the platformers. So he isn't going to be doing anything like Super Jump Punch, Cape, etc. Among the 20 normal characters, is there anyone he could outright branch off of? I feel like Brawl might've worked better in that regard, since there's more semi-clones compared to regular clones design-wise. Using Mario as the base for movement, but highly different moves. Though I think that might've released well before the New Super Mario Bros. games which put the Toad species into the regular abilities similar to Mario, the first time they actually had similarities that could be translated well to Smash. 4 also works. By then Dr. Mario is just another clone vet, but Toad easily could take from other characters as is. They could justify the Turnips from Peach now, though that's about the only move he outright does. Super Jump Punch is not incorrect, but there's stuff like the Propeller power-up that is not just used somewhat in artwork, but also would change it up more so he only barely resembles some characters. Focusing on power-ups works as well, since there's no Mario character that does that.

you know I was just thinking about that. As a clone in place dr Mario you’re right as it was before toad was shown using a lot of these moves it wouldn’t have made sense. But then ganondorf uses moves that don’t really match anything he did back then based on a character who’s move set had to be made up. So perhaps it’s have to come down to body type as after all that’s why Ganon is a falcon clone. In that case it’s less clear cause sure his body seems about as different from mario as pichu is from Pikachu whether or not that’s true from a technical stand point is something I could tell.

so I guess in theory it wouldn’t have been to big of a stretch but in practice it probably wouldn’t have worked

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

you know I was just thinking about that. As a clone in place dr Mario you’re right as it was before toad was shown using a lot of these moves it wouldn’t have made sense. But then ganondorf uses moves that don’t really match anything he did back then based on a character who’s move set had to be made up. So perhaps it’s have to come down to body type as after all that’s why Ganon is a falcon clone. In that case it’s less clear cause sure his body seems about as different from mario as pichu is from Pikachu whether or not that’s true from a technical stand point is something I could tell.

so I guess in theory it wouldn’t have been to big of a stretch but in practice it probably wouldn’t have worked

Well, most of Ganondorf's moves. He actually does a drop down kick like his Aerial Down B, Warlock Punch heavily matches his ground pound animation from early in the fight, and his Forward Air is directly based upon an actual artwork. So not entirely true. It just worked out that way that the moveset animations fit him extremely well(and he's still shown as physically strong within the Zelda universe, not just magically) moreso with his personality than using canon moves.

Also, to be fair, Pichu is a clone, so in that sense, it might've still worked(though Pichu does do most of what Pikachu can do, which helps). Technically speaking, Toad's bodyshape could still work for a regular clone, due to it only being a skeleton change. Though the differences feel closer to Isabelle, who is not a typical clone(more of a semi), but that should be enough to make a moveset(not saying it'd be a good one, though). But yeah, he doesn't have enough in common with Mario at that time where you could branch off of him. Nor the same bodytype, or even artwork of him doing similar moves. The only thing they, at the time, could really do that is similar is hit blocks. On a technicality, that just leaves Super Jump Punch, which doesn't sound much like a move for Toad.

That said, Toad is known for helping with power-ups, even if it's more the species than the main Toad helping you. So you could still throw in the Cape even if it's not pinpoint accurate. SMB3 more or less make Toad the power-up king of shops. The Fireball by design too. It's only the Tornado that doesn't fit well, and Toad at most needs new animations. You could get a half-baked clone(nothing as good as the Melee ones in comparison, though). Though I'd worry if he's get actual good updates that make him no-baked. They only screwed up Ganondorf in Brawl by making him too slow and some of his moves not function right. The concept works fine for what it's meant to be.

 

[fogbadge]

Well, most of Ganondorf's moves. He actually does a drop down kick like his Aerial Down B, Warlock Punch heavily matches his ground pound animation from early in the fight, and his Forward Air is directly based upon an actual artwork. So not entirely true. It just worked out that way that the moveset animations fit him extremely well(and he's still shown as physically strong within the Zelda universe, not just magically) moreso with his personality than using canon moves.

Also, to be fair, Pichu is a clone, so in that sense, it might've still worked(though Pichu does do most of what Pikachu can do, which helps). Technically speaking, Toad's bodyshape could still work for a regular clone, due to it only being a skeleton change. Though the differences feel closer to Isabelle, who is not a typical clone(more of a semi), but that should be enough to make a moveset(not saying it'd be a good one, though). But yeah, he doesn't have enough in common with Mario at that time where you could branch off of him. Nor the same bodytype, or even artwork of him doing similar moves. The only thing they, at the time, could really do that is similar is hit blocks. On a technicality, that just leaves Super Jump Punch, which doesn't sound much like a move for Toad.

That said, Toad is known for helping with power-ups, even if it's more the species than the main Toad helping you. So you could still throw in the Cape even if it's not pinpoint accurate. SMB3 more or less make Toad the power-up king of shops. The Fireball by design too. It's only the Tornado that doesn't fit well, and Toad at most needs new animations. You could get a half-baked clone(nothing as good as the Melee ones in comparison, though). Though I'd worry if he's get actual good updates that make him no-baked. They only screwed up Ganondorf in Brawl by making him too slow and some of his moves not function right. The concept works fine for what it's meant to be.

well yes and no with ganondorf you’re right that some of those moves do match but in OoT he was more of a magic caster than he was a brawler so it just doesn’t feel quite right. Now in later games he is a bit more physical but his fists are still secondary to whatever sword he has at the time. So yes it fits a little bit but it’s not as reflective of the character as most of the roster.

now the technical stuff in regards to toad in genuinely interesting. Ideally I’d like toad to be unique but I’d take what we can get. It’s funny to think that toad now has most of the moves that Mario had back than bar the spin from 64. Closest to that is the downwards attack from the propeller shroom

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

well yes and no with ganondorf you’re right that some of those moves do match but in OoT he was more of a magic caster than he was a brawler so it just doesn’t feel quite right. Now in later games he is a bit more physical but his fists are still secondary to whatever sword he has at the time. So yes it fits a little bit but it’s not as reflective of the character as most of the roster.

now the technical stuff in regards to toad in genuinely interesting. Ideally I’d like toad to be unique but I’d take what we can get. It’s funny to think that toad now has most of the moves that Mario had back than bar the spin from 64. Closest to that is the downwards attack from the propeller shroom

Right. He's not perfect. Personality, sure. Strange thing is his alterego, Ganon, was purely physical in OOT, something never before seen(Zelda 1 comes close, but he still is shooting fireballs at you). Ganondorf these days is physical(not just the sword. He's willing to punch/etc. too) with some magic. Only OOT tried to focus on magic, and it didn't help he was mostly just an updated Agnahim(the original alterego of Ganon). If not being clear by my wording, I'm separating Ganon and Ganondorf to explain further what I mean.

Yeah, that is strange. Toad wouldn't make sense as a clone back then... but now actually does when there wouldn't be a reason to choose him as a clone. What an irony. It sucks too, cause I really want him in. I think less so as a clone and focusing on power-ups is a good way to do it.

Likewise, Captain Toad has his own separate cool stuff you could do.

Otherwise, I wonder what stuff can't work if they were alts of each other. Power-ups kind of get awkward in some cases(like the Cape itself) if you're wearing a backpack(not the way the Cape is used in Smash, but actually wearing it) too. So any power-ups, for using two separate characters as one, have to fit both really well. Propeller Hat for sure works.

 

[fogbadge]

Right. He's not perfect. Personality, sure. Strange thing is his alterego, Ganon, was purely physical in OOT, something never before seen(Zelda 1 comes close, but he still is shooting fireballs at you). Ganondorf these days is physical(not just the sword. He's willing to punch/etc. too) with some magic. Only OOT tried to focus on magic, and it didn't help he was mostly just an updated Agnahim(the original alterego of Ganon). If not being clear by my wording, I'm separating Ganon and Ganondorf to explain further what I mean.

Yeah, that is strange. Toad wouldn't make sense as a clone back then... but now actually does when there wouldn't be a reason to choose him as a clone. What an irony. It sucks too, cause I really want him in. I think less so as a clone and focusing on power-ups is a good way to do it.

Likewise, Captain Toad has his own separate cool stuff you could do.

Otherwise, I wonder what stuff can't work if they were alts of each other. Power-ups kind of get awkward in some cases(like the Cape itself) if you're wearing a backpack(not the way the Cape is used in Smash, but actually wearing it) too. So any power-ups, for using two separate characters as one, have to fit both really well. Propeller Hat for sure works.

ganondorf fighting sure has evolved over the years. Who knows what he’ll do next

I think a lot of us do agree that a power up based move set would be awesome for toad especially considering how many he can use. If cap and toad were to be alts of each other I think we’d have to allow for somethings that don’t make sense. Unless of course youre going with the thinking that because toadette can play just like both of them it makes sense that they can play like each other. Of course that would probably make more sense if they were alts of her.

Steve’s side special is pretty much what I was picturing for caps

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

ganondorf fighting sure has evolved over the years. Who knows what he’ll do next

I think a lot of us do agree that a power up based move set would be awesome for toad especially considering how many he can use. If cap and toad were to be alts of each other I think we’d have to allow for somethings that don’t make sense. Unless of course youre going with the thinking that because toadette can play just like both of them it makes sense that they can play like each other. Of course that would probably make more sense if they were alts of her.

Steve’s side special is pretty much what I was picturing for caps

Yeah. Ganondorf kicks too, as I remember that his Forward Tilt is from TP. That one's not as easy to remember as him manhandling Link in WW, for me. He backhands him, chokeholds him, and outright punches him square in the face. It's why I like WW Ganondorf. He's got the best of every world, showing that despite what looks like an out of shape man, is a Gerudo who is willing to kick ass and take names for what he believes in. If only he wasn't hard forced to stay evil, they could legit do more with the character. I hate the Demise thing, as it basically strangles character options.

I mean that the moves shouldn't clash with their actual clothing. Who wears a cape and a backpack? It looks awkward. That's the only power-up where it wouldn't fit both designs together that I can think of. Penguin Suit shouldn't matter, for instance, nor Cat Suit, etc. If you were to use the Cape power-up correctly, he has to make it arc in itself without directly affecting his backpack. Worth noting that the Cape as a flying item actually would logically be based around a character's weight, and the backpack specifically makes it so he would weigh more. This is probably the oddest power-up to work with. Maybe the P-Balloon would be better, since that doesn't clash much at all. I could see that find some use, like maybe a multi-jump? It's not weight-based, since it turns your body into a literal balloon. Nor is it like the Tanooki suit, which works a lot differently from the Cape too. A good way to put is the Cape after a while glides you down like a Hanglider, while other flying items work a bit differently(this is why I note the weight is an actual factor in its design). Not saying it has to matter, but this could help determine the best way to implement the power-ups so they feel logical/fitting for each situation. This might be why the normal Cape is never used as a recovery. It kind of sucks as one.

Albeit, Toadette's an interesting one cause of her different hair pieces. She could be a fine alt for Toad, since they're pretty much gendered counterparts. Captain Toad and Captain Toadette likewise. The only irony is that if you had both overall, you get two unique Toads and Toadette twice over. That said, I think what would make Captain Toad stand out is that his backpack does not get transformed in all circumstances similarly. It should go invisible with him, sure(though let's be honest, invisibility does nothing since you have to see where you're going anyway), but the Metal Box should only metalize him. The backpack is a very important part of his design, so it being a bit special would be neat, imo.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah. Ganondorf kicks too, as I remember that his Forward Tilt is from TP. That one's not as easy to remember as him manhandling Link in WW, for me. He backhands him, chokeholds him, and outright punches him square in the face. It's why I like WW Ganondorf. He's got the best of every world, showing that despite what looks like an out of shape man, is a Gerudo who is willing to kick ass and take names for what he believes in. If only he wasn't hard forced to stay evil, they could legit do more with the character. I hate the Demise thing, as it basically strangles character options.

I mean that the moves shouldn't clash with their actual clothing. Who wears a cape and a backpack? It looks awkward. That's the only power-up where it wouldn't fit both designs together that I can think of. Penguin Suit shouldn't matter, for instance, nor Cat Suit, etc. If you were to use the Cape power-up correctly, he has to make it arc in itself without directly affecting his backpack. Worth noting that the Cape as a flying item actually would logically be based around a character's weight, and the backpack specifically makes it so he would weigh more. This is probably the oddest power-up to work with. Maybe the P-Balloon would be better, since that doesn't clash much at all. I could see that find some use, like maybe a multi-jump? It's not weight-based, since it turns your body into a literal balloon. Nor is it like the Tanooki suit, which works a lot differently from the Cape too. A good way to put is the Cape after a while glides you down like a Hanglider, while other flying items work a bit differently(this is why I note the weight is an actual factor in its design). Not saying it has to matter, but this could help determine the best way to implement the power-ups so they feel logical/fitting for each situation. This might be why the normal Cape is never used as a recovery. It kind of sucks as one.

Albeit, Toadette's an interesting one cause of her different hair pieces. She could be a fine alt for Toad, since they're pretty much gendered counterparts. Captain Toad and Captain Toadette likewise. The only irony is that if you had both overall, you get two unique Toads and Toadette twice over. That said, I think what would make Captain Toad stand out is that his backpack does not get transformed in all circumstances similarly. It should go invisible with him, sure(though let's be honest, invisibility does nothing since you have to see where you're going anyway), but the Metal Box should only metalize him. The backpack is a very important part of his design, so it being a bit special would be neat, imo.

huh I forgot ganondorf kicked in TP. Oh well there goes my claim to being a Zelda super fan

I never could get the cape to work in SMW. animal crossing certainly wouldn’t let me wear a cape and a backpack. Was the P-balloon in SMM? I don’t remember. Certainly would be fun to a character inflated in the middle of smash. Apart from jigglypuff. Cat and penguin suits would be my top pics to have in his move set, throwing iceballs and scratching would be cool.

ive got no objections to toadette twice over. Certainly the back could make for a unique game play style and if need be a blunt object

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

huh I forgot ganondorf kicked in TP. Oh well there goes my claim to being a Zelda super fan

I never could get the cape to work in SMW. animal crossing certainly wouldn’t let me wear a cape and a backpack. Was the P-balloon in SMM? I don’t remember. Certainly would be fun to a character inflated in the middle of smash. Apart from jigglypuff. Cat and penguin suits would be my top pics to have in his move set, throwing iceballs and scratching would be cool.

ive got no objections to toadette twice over. Certainly the back could make for a unique game play style and if need be a blunt object

Yeah. I forgot about the TP kick for a bit too, but then remembered it due to an article I read some years back. I don't remember it well in-game, though.

The cape is honestly a pretty bleh item outside of its spinning ability. The gliding doesn't work that well, though still a cool item. The Tanooki Suit's form of flight just feels better. You can still glide after a while, but it feels very easy to control. I mostly only like SMW better for the fact you can save your progress. Give me a full thing like that in SMB3, even as a fun hack, and I'd enjoy it more. >.>

Anyway, yeah, the backpack is very heavy, so swinging as a weapon makes a ton of sense. It could be used for throws too. Like literally falling backwards onto the opponent for a very good amount of damage, than watching the Captain take a few moments to get up, cause it's so damn heavy. That would be a funny way to characterize them accurately.

The P-Balloon I don't think was in SMM sadly. Possibly 2? I feel like this is a great item for the Captains. Since the whole point behind the gameplay is they can't jump, something giving them a lighter property could faithfully fix the factor while making them fun and unique. The aerials would obviously be harder to use than ground attacks, due to the high falling speed, but you could do the neutral air without losing your current jump. Like blowing a bit of air out(Kirby does this in his own games). I'm actually questioning the best way to make a useful recovery for Captain. Maybe just firing himself out of a Cannon?

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah. I forgot about the TP kick for a bit too, but then remembered it due to an article I read some years back. I don't remember it well in-game, though.

The cape is honestly a pretty bleh item outside of its spinning ability. The gliding doesn't work that well, though still a cool item. The Tanooki Suit's form of flight just feels better. You can still glide after a while, but it feels very easy to control. I mostly only like SMW better for the fact you can save your progress. Give me a full thing like that in SMB3, even as a fun hack, and I'd enjoy it more. >.>

Anyway, yeah, the backpack is very heavy, so swinging as a weapon makes a ton of sense. It could be used for throws too. Like literally falling backwards onto the opponent for a very good amount of damage, than watching the Captain take a few moments to get up, cause it's so damn heavy. That would be a funny way to characterize them accurately.

The P-Balloon I don't think was in SMM sadly. Possibly 2? I feel like this is a great item for the Captains. Since the whole point behind the gameplay is they can't jump, something giving them a lighter property could faithfully fix the factor while making them fun and unique. The aerials would obviously be harder to use than ground attacks, due to the high falling speed, but you could do the neutral air without losing your current jump. Like blowing a bit of air out(Kirby does this in his own games). I'm actually questioning the best way to make a useful recovery for Captain. Maybe just firing himself out of a Cannon?

id hope he would saty one the ground for too long thatd leave him kinda open for an easy attack. or would the intense damage be seen as balancing it out?

well imaging cap inflating like kirby is an image that will amused for a while. his down air could be the pack dragging him down with its weight for a heavy impact. firing himself out of a canon is certainly one of my favourite ideas for his up special and certainly one of the more common ideas weve had i think. the ideas on how to make him jump have always been an interesting talking point, i seem to recall i suggested the jumping feather from the original mario kart at some point. the only thing we're sure of is that his aerial game would not be great.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

id hope he would saty one the ground for too long thatd leave him kinda open for an easy attack. or would the intense damage be seen as balancing it out?

So the idea is that if he doesn't use his jumps after a while(cause they are meant to be kind of sucky), he'd be more laggy? If he can do intense damage with his falling-related aerials in return for the backpack forcing him to be laggy, that might work. That's a really neat idea that capitalizes on his character. I do think it could run into balance issues, and may not be that fun. Like how PT has your Pokemon tire out after a while.

well imaging cap inflating like kirby is an image that will amused for a while. his down air could be the pack dragging him down with its weight for a heavy impact. firing himself out of a canon is certainly one of my favourite ideas for his up special and certainly one of the more common ideas weve had i think. the ideas on how to make him jump have always been an interesting talking point, i seem to recall i suggested the jumping feather from the original mario kart at some point. the only thing we're sure of is that his aerial game would not be great.

I think I've mentioned the Cannon thing before. It helps that it's actually from his games. The Feather could work too, though if Toad and Captain Toad are separate, it's a bit more odd of an item since it's not from the style of games he's in. Albeit, most of the power-ups aren't either. But Captain Toad isn't from any spin-off beyond his own, so using power-ups from a different kind of spin-off feels odd. Even then, it's not a big deal~

 

[fogbadge]

So the idea is that if he doesn't use his jumps after a while(cause they are meant to be kind of sucky), he'd be more laggy? If he can do intense damage with his falling-related aerials in return for the backpack forcing him to be laggy, that might work. That's a really neat idea that capitalizes on his character. I do think it could run into balance issues, and may not be that fun. Like how PT has your Pokemon tire out after a while.


I think I've mentioned the Cannon thing before. It helps that it's actually from his games. The Feather could work too, though if Toad and Captain Toad are separate, it's a bit more odd of an item since it's not from the style of games he's in. Albeit, most of the power-ups aren't either. But Captain Toad isn't from any spin-off beyond his own, so using power-ups from a different kind of spin-off feels odd. Even then, it's not a big deal~

oh that’s was a typo it was meant to say “wouldn’t be on the ground for to long” in response to your suggestion that he should struggle to get up after a throw

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

oh that’s was a typo it was meant to say “wouldn’t be on the ground for to long” in response to your suggestion that he should struggle to get up after a throw

Huh. I did actually read it by how you meant. That's a first I think? XD Yeah, I like that idea too. It gives him a lot more fun characterization overall.

That said, I'd suggest, if Toad and Captain Toad are alts, to focus more on Toad and the Backpack at best is just a useless object. Cause if you implement it, it doesn't really mesh with Toad's very different abilities(including a more naturally high jump. Captain Toad in a few animations/clips can slightly jump to grab something, but for the most part, his jumping is trash. Like, even Ganondorf in Brawl can be said to have better jumping. A good comparison could be Chaos Zero in Sonic Battle. He can barely jump, so you can't get out of a hole without your double jump as is, and you have to have good button pressing. That's... more or less what Captain Toad is normally presented as). To clarify further of what I mean, the hat alone could make for a good Toad alt if Captain Toad wouldn't be fully used beyond a fun alt.

 

[Yiptap]

I can't believe it took me this long, but I support. Toad feels like a character that should have been in since Melee.

 

[fogbadge]

I can't believe it took me this long, but I support. Toad feels like a character that should have been in since Melee.

care to be on the support list?

Huh. I did actually read it by how you meant. That's a first I think? XD Yeah, I like that idea too. It gives him a lot more fun characterization overall.

That said, I'd suggest, if Toad and Captain Toad are alts, to focus more on Toad and the Backpack at best is just a useless object. Cause if you implement it, it doesn't really mesh with Toad's very different abilities(including a more naturally high jump. Captain Toad in a few animations/clips can slightly jump to grab something, but for the most part, his jumping is trash. Like, even Ganondorf in Brawl can be said to have better jumping. A good comparison could be Chaos Zero in Sonic Battle. He can barely jump, so you can't get out of a hole without your double jump as is, and you have to have good button pressing. That's... more or less what Captain Toad is normally presented as). To clarify further of what I mean, the hat alone could make for a good Toad alt if Captain Toad wouldn't be fully used beyond a fun alt.

I think that’s true of a few of the characters who are alts

 

[Yiptap]

care to be on the support list?

Yeah, sure!

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, sure!

Done welcome to the brigade

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think that’s true of a few of the characters who are alts

Well, none of them have an item on them that has an important use in game. There's some unique alts for sure, but those are minor items that don't affect gameplay. Same concept, but nobody is in the same situation to compare to fully. Regardless, it only matters if the backpack's weight matters.

 

[fogbadge]

Well, none of them have an item on them that has an important use in game. There's some unique alts for sure, but those are minor items that don't affect gameplay. Same concept, but nobody is in the same situation to compare to fully. Regardless, it only matters if the backpack's weight matters.

its certainly an interesting hypothetical

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

its certainly an interesting hypothetical

I remember an old theory for why Link had terrible jumps in Smash 64. He naturally carries around tons of items, so... they weigh him down. In the official artwork, Classic Link has an actual backpack.

Imagine if that was added to him. It would actually make his bad jumping feel more logical. Especially as he has fairly fine jumps in Zelda II, one of the games he takes moves from. ._.

Anyway, what power-ups could easily work with Toad/Captain Toad? Propeller Hat, the Tanooki Suit is already an item that works fine. All the Smash items work fine too(the Mushrooms, Super Star, etc.). So what is left that stands out? Maybe returning the Red Shell as a Side B, where he could continue to kick it when it comes back to him, as it'd be akin to the Boomerang in the "always comes back" department. It'd stand out.

 

[fogbadge]

I remember an old theory for why Link had terrible jumps in Smash 64. He naturally carries around tons of items, so... they weigh him down. In the official artwork, Classic Link has an actual backpack.

Imagine if that was added to him. It would actually make his bad jumping feel more logical. Especially as he has fairly fine jumps in Zelda II, one of the games he takes moves from. ._.

Anyway, what power-ups could easily work with Toad/Captain Toad? Propeller Hat, the Tanooki Suit is already an item that works fine. All the Smash items work fine too(the Mushrooms, Super Star, etc.). So what is left that stands out? Maybe returning the Red Shell as a Side B, where he could continue to kick it when it comes back to him, as it'd be akin to the Boomerang in the "always comes back" department. It'd stand out.

links backpack with all those items coming out of it would have looked odd in the n64 graphics

hmm power ups that stand out? Well perhaps the cat suit there aren’t a whole lot of feline like moves in the game. Or indeed a move where they turn into a statue. Penguin or ice flower as there’s barely any ice based moves on the roster.

he might turn out to playable in that new rabbids game which would give us more options

 

[Dan]

he might turn out to playable in that new rabbids game which would give us more options

I doubt it... he was only an escortee in the original and didn't even appear in today's trailer.

 

[fogbadge]

I doubt it... he was only an escortee in the original and didn't even appear in today's trailer.

never say never. unless it about smash

 

[crazybenjamin]

well it’s good it was a joke and not an argument then

Could have been a bit more clear about that, over on Gamefaqs, "fOuR mArThS" is usually thrown around as justification for cutting Chrom, or reducing him to a Marth alt (and then these same people turn around and go on about how fan demand is the be all and end all)

 

[YoshiandToad]

Could have been a bit more clear about that, over on Gamefaqs, "fOuR mArThS" is usually thrown around as justification for cutting Chrom, or reducing him to a Marth alt (and then these same people turn around and go on about how fan demand is the be all and end all)

That's GameFAQS for ya.

Not that Smashboards doesn't occasionally dip into that anti-Fire Emblem reteroric but at least I can go a day without seeing "Chrom isn't needed, we just needed Robin" or "Chrom isn't the main character of Awakening, Robin/Lucina is" or the hilarious gag that Toad is in actual fact playable because you can press B as Peach and he will show up.

Same joke, different day.

 

[fogbadge]

Could have been a bit more clear about that, over on Gamefaqs, "fOuR mArThS" is usually thrown around as justification for cutting Chrom, or reducing him to a Marth alt (and then these same people turn around and go on about how fan demand is the be all and end all)

if fan demand was the be all end all we would have a fairly different roster

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Eh, the joke after a while isn't as funny because some actually use it non-ironically.

Sometimes it's best not to use jokes as often when replying to an actual debate point. It's easy to take the joke out of context.

But again, the real kicker is to just use a smiley to make it clear's a joke and people will shrug. Unless they're so sick of the joke they go nuts over it, but that's fairly different from taking the context wrong anyway.

Could have been a bit more clear about that, over on Gamefaqs, "fOuR mArThS" is usually thrown around as justification for cutting Chrom, or reducing him to a Marth alt (and then these same people turn around and go on about how fan demand is the be all and end all)

It's unfortunate too; some actually use these kind of weird arguments that make no sense everywhere on the net. I've seen non-ironic Four Marths arguments before. Like, uhhhh... this isn't the same as saying that some characters essentially came from another base(especially more if you include NPC's) either. It's simply incorrect as a statement.

That said, humor is subjective. Overusing a joke can often lead to people becoming sick of it, so.

 

[fogbadge]

well theres bound to be some mario game at the event tomorrow and toad is bound to in it in some capacity. though im fairly sure we'll see golf at the treehouse so at least one playable toad game

Eh, the joke after a while isn't as funny because some actually use it non-ironically.

noted. cant promise ill remember

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

noted. cant promise ill remember

...We aren't asking you to stop posting jokes.

We're asking you to label your posts with smileys so we know you aren't serious and we don't misread your tone massively, causing more than one silly derail over nothing, well, serious.

Nobody is asking for anything more, really.

 

[fogbadge]

...We aren't asking you to stop posting jokes.

We're asking you to label your posts with smileys so we know you aren't serious and we don't misread your tone massively, causing more than one silly derail over nothing, well, serious.

Nobody is asking for anything more, really.

i meant the bit about that joke not really working anymore and people using seriously

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

i meant the bit about that joke not really working anymore and people using seriously

I know what you meant. I'm pointing out you took the overall point we meant in the wrong direction.

It's fine if you don't post a joke cause you feel it lost its luster, but the issue is overall we can't legit tell if you're joking(there's going to be a few times we can tell, but generally, we can't) at least 90% of the time. We're asking you to try and make it clearer in your post by adding something to emphasize that.

Your sense of humor is fine, honestly. I did find those funny when I was aware you were joking.

 

[fogbadge]

I know what you meant. I'm pointing out you took the overall point we meant in the wrong direction.

It's fine if you don't post a joke cause you feel it lost its luster, but the issue is overall we can't legit tell if you're joking(there's going to be a few times we can tell, but generally, we can't) at least 90% of the time. We're asking you to try and make it clearer in your post by adding something to emphasize that.

Your sense of humor is fine, honestly. I did find those funny when I was aware you were joking.

got ya

perhaps ill try the "XD" thing

 

[Laniv]

God I hope we get something Toad related today

 

[fogbadge]

So that’s 3 Mario party games in a row where toad and toadette aren’t playable

 

[Arcadenik]

So that’s 3 Mario party games in a row where toad and toadette aren’t playable

That’s what I was thinking when I saw that.

They remade the boards from Mario Party 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) and had Rosalina and Birdo as playable characters but not Toad and Toadette.

 

[fogbadge]

That’s what I was thinking when I saw that.

They remade the boards from Mario Party 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) and had Rosalina and Birdo as playable characters but not Toad and Toadette.

what a real shame

 

[Dan]

Is it confirmed that Toad isn't playable?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Is it confirmed that Toad isn't playable?

No. We saw Toadette as an NPC.

Toad has been playable, sometimes switching with DK in roles. One is playable, the other gives Stars.

It could go either way, but until we see more, I wouldn't count him out.