Toad/Captain Toad for Smash, Toad Brigade Assemble!

[~ Valkyrie ~]

i dunno the waluigi and geno fans only seem to have become more determined

Though it has come with more on-going jokes and shilling against them from the general fanbase, what with them being very active and vocal in spite of their lost chances.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I do think that we have a slightly different scenario than Waluigi and Geno fans too to explain the differing attitudes.

Geno's basically a forgotten relic of the past who's inclusion in mentioning in an interview and recieving a Mii costume is genuinely a huge leap forward for the character and it's fanbase. Smash acknowledging Geno at all is the most SMRPG gets mentioned in modern gaming.

Waluigi's relegated to spinoff titles, is generally considered a tertiary character from Super Mario at best(He's Wario and Luigi's mirrors, each of whom are Mario's mirror) and is barely acknowledged by the main Mario titles outside one costume reference in Super Mario Odyssey.

Waluigi is also not that different in role from Daisy overall. She appears in Super Mario Run and for like 4 seconds in Super Mario Land, but the majority of her popularity comes from the sports spinoffs. If Daisy can be acknowledged, Waluigi can be, because in most Mario fans eyes Waluigi and Daisy are about the same level of importance.

Then we come to Toad:

• In every Super Mario title bar Super Mario World.
• Third most playable character in the mainline series after the titular brothers.
• Forms a quad with Mario, Luigi and Peach(and now Toadette in some cases) as the four player cast.
• After Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser he's about as main a Mario Bros. character as you can get. There is no weird third party or mainline only issues with him.
• Has his own game.
• Actually has more than one game as the lead protagonist, but one recent one.
• Is more recognisable than 90% of the cast currently in Smash.
• Has been referenced in Smash since at least Smash Bros. Melee, aka 20 years.
• Was on Sakurai's first popularity poll and cracked the top 10. Still not playable over 20 years later since that poll, making him and Mew the only (realisable) characters who never made the jump to playable
• Chrom is currently the only playable character that was once part of someone else's moveset.
• Another Toad is added to Daisy's moveset in Ultimate despite it making even less sense with her.
• Dr. Mario is added rather than Toad in Melee as a Mario clone.
• Piranha Plant is added as the 'bonus' Mario character in Ultimate.
• Despite Sakurai having him as a NPC in Smash for two decades, he's never been acknowledged as why he never got the upgrade unlike Geno or Waluigi who have at least been touched on a bit by him.
• Due to Toad being deconfirmed almost immedietly when Peach is showcased each game there's no time to build hype for him. Waluigi admittedly also didn't get any for Ultimate but Geno recieved a big period of time where he built up followers.

Not trying to whine, but I am trying to explain why Toad fans are more defeated than Waluigi and Geno fans at this point and why there's fewer of us as a result.

 

[fogbadge]

I do think that we have a slightly different scenario than Waluigi and Geno fans too to explain the differing attitudes.

Geno's basically a forgotten relic of the past who's inclusion in mentioning in an interview and recieving a Mii costume is genuinely a huge leap forward for the character and it's fanbase. Smash acknowledging Geno at all is the most SMRPG gets mentioned in modern gaming.

Waluigi's relegated to spinoff titles, is generally considered a tertiary character from Super Mario at best(He's Wario and Luigi's mirrors, each of whom are Mario's mirror) and is barely acknowledged by the main Mario titles outside one costume reference in Super Mario Odyssey.

Waluigi is also not that different in role from Daisy overall. She appears in Super Mario Run and for like 4 seconds in Super Mario Land, but the majority of her popularity comes from the sports spinoffs. If Daisy can be acknowledged, Waluigi can be, because in most Mario fans eyes Waluigi and Daisy are about the same level of importance.

Then we come to Toad:

• In every Super Mario title bar Super Mario World.
• Third most playable character in the mainline series after the titular brothers.
• Forms a quad with Mario, Luigi and Peach(and now Toadette in some cases) as the four player cast.
• After Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser he's about as main a Mario Bros. character as you can get. There is no weird third party or mainline only issues with him.
• Has his own game.
• Actually has more than one game as the lead protagonist, but one recent one.
• Is more recognisable than 90% of the cast currently in Smash.
• Has been referenced in Smash since at least Smash Bros. Melee, aka 20 years.
• Was on Sakurai's first popularity poll and cracked the top 10. Still not playable over 20 years later since that poll, making him and Mew the only (realisable) characters who never made the jump to playable
• Chrom is currently the only playable character that was once part of someone else's moveset.
• Another Toad is added to Daisy's moveset in Ultimate despite it making even less sense with her.
• Dr. Mario is added rather than Toad in Melee as a Mario clone.
• Piranha Plant is added as the 'bonus' Mario character in Ultimate.
• Despite Sakurai having him as a NPC in Smash for two decades, he's never been acknowledged as why he never got the upgrade unlike Geno or Waluigi who have at least been touched on a bit by him.
• Due to Toad being deconfirmed almost immedietly when Peach is showcased each game there's no time to build hype for him. Waluigi admittedly also didn't get any for Ultimate but Geno recieved a big period of time where he built up followers.

Not trying to whine, but I am trying to explain why Toad fans are more defeated than Waluigi and Geno fans at this point and why there's fewer of us as a result.

we had further to fall

 

[Dan]

Though it has come with more on-going jokes and shilling against them from the general fanbase, what with them being very active and vocal in spite of their lost chances.

There is this really delusional fella in the Geno thread who called me a pessimist for saying Geno has slim-to-no chance now...

Geno's basically a forgotten relic of the past who's inclusion in mentioning in an interview and recieving a Mii costume is genuinely a huge leap forward for the character and it's fanbase.

I think people are too low on him; I mean, the character was trending on Twitter after his costume reveal. Everyone who cares about Smash knows who he is... if Smash was about servicing the fans he obviously would've been in by now. I basically don't think he's as obscure as people think; he's from the most popular gaming franchise ever.

Basically the fact his fans won't shut up about him paired with the fact people just constantly talk about how obscure he is makes him no longer obscure in my eyes lol.

And regarding Daisy, I'm still sorta surprised she got an Echo tbh.

Then we come to Toad:

• In every Super Mario title bar Super Mario World.
• Third most playable character in the mainline series after the titular brothers.
• Forms a quad with Mario, Luigi and Peach(and now Toadette in some cases) as the four player cast.
• After Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser he's about as main a Mario Bros. character as you can get. There is no weird third party or mainline only issues with him.
• Has his own game.
• Actually has more than one game as the lead protagonist, but one recent one.
• Is more recognisable than 90% of the cast currently in Smash.
• Has been referenced in Smash since at least Smash Bros. Melee, aka 20 years.
• Was on Sakurai's first popularity poll and cracked the top 10. Still not playable over 20 years later since that poll, making him and Mew the only (realisable) characters who never made the jump to playable
• Chrom is currently the only playable character that was once part of someone else's moveset.
• Another Toad is added to Daisy's moveset in Ultimate despite it making even less sense with her.
• Dr. Mario is added rather than Toad in Melee as a Mario clone.
• Piranha Plant is added as the 'bonus' Mario character in Ultimate.
• Despite Sakurai having him as a NPC in Smash for two decades, he's never been acknowledged as why he never got the upgrade unlike Geno or Waluigi who have at least been touched on a bit by him.
• Due to Toad being deconfirmed almost immedietly when Peach is showcased each game there's no time to build hype for him. Waluigi admittedly also didn't get any for Ultimate but Geno recieved a big period of time where he built up followers.

Not trying to whine, but I am trying to explain why Toad fans are more defeated than Waluigi and Geno fans at this point and why there's fewer of us as a result.

The fact Toad isn't playable is beyond disgraceful, especially when they put the plant in instead of him. Call me boring and salty, but the Piranha Plant wasn't even a good joke imo. Smash characters are so far and few between, take so long to develop, etc. that it was just really bad imo, but they're no stranger to bad decisions at this point. Ultimate was magical but just dropped off a cliff after K. Rool's reveal.

Your post deserves a round of applause, but I think the fact there a fewer Toad fans than Geno fans is cause Toad has less obvious of a moveset; Geno's moveset is already built for him and takes little imagination.

I've said it before, but I seriously thought Captain Toad was the most likely Ultimate newcomer after Inkling.

 

[Lenidem]

There is this really delusional fella in the Geno thread who called me a pessimist for saying Geno has slim-to-no chance now...


I think people are too low on him; I mean, the character was trending on Twitter after his costume reveal. Everyone who cares about Smash knows who he is... if Smash was about servicing the fans he obviously would've been in by now. I basically don't think he's as obscure as people think; he's from the most popular gaming franchise ever.

Basically the fact his fans won't shut up about him paired with the fact people just constantly talk about how obscure he is makes him no longer obscure in my eyes lol.

And regarding Daisy, I'm still sorta surprised she got an Echo tbh.


The fact Toad isn't playable is beyond disgraceful, especially when they put the plant in instead of him. Call me boring and salty, but the Piranha Plant wasn't even a good joke imo. Smash characters are so far and few between, take so long to develop, etc. that it was just really bad imo, but they're no stranger to bad decisions at this point. Ultimate was magical but just dropped off a cliff after K. Rool's reveal.

Your post deserves a round of applause, but I think the fact there a fewer Toad fans than Geno fans is cause Toad has less obvious of a moveset; Geno's moveset is already built for him and takes little imagination.

I've said it before, but I seriously thought Captain Toad was the most likely Ultimate newcomer after Inkling.

Totally agree with you on Toad and Piranha Plant. When I heard about Captain Toad on Switch, I was absolutely sure he would finally be playable... And I think the Plant is by far the most awful idea they ever had.

 

[fogbadge]

And regarding Daisy, I'm still sorta surprised she got an Echo tbh.

it was because sakurai can read my mind and hates me

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Plant wasn't put in instead of Toad. Plant was specifically a non-heroic character pick. Is Toad magically a non-hero or a villain now? Didn't think so.

Seriously, get over it already. Toad was never going to take the spot of a special non-heroic DLC character.

Also, why are we throwing pointless heat at Daisy again? Come on, guys. This is getting massively silly now. Sakurai doesn't hate anyone. Plant was literally only plausible to have another Mook in its place(Shy Guy, for instance, who honestly is the only other viable Mario/Yoshi character with the same amount of potential for a huge moveset and is super unique enough. Plant itself is also a very unique body shape).

I would've taken Toad too, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean he would've had the chance here anyway. The most he got was... slightly more usage in Peach's moveset. And then another generic Blue Toad for Daisy.

Daisy was an easy Echo though. She's massively popular, didn't need much changes(she has only slight hurtbox changes at best, due to different animations. Least Echo change ever), and was being constantly used by Nintendo too, so relevance was never an issue. Even starting coming back to the Super Mario mainline games lately(Super Mario Run, Super Mario Maker had her as a DLC costume too).

 

[fogbadge]

...Plant wasn't put in instead of Toad. Plant was specifically a non-heroic character pick. Is Toad magically a non-hero or a villain now? Didn't think so.

im fairly certain sakurai said he put PP in as a similar vain to game and watch r.o.b and wft. Don’t think he said anything about him being a bad guy

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

im fairly certain sakurai said he put PP in as a similar vain to game and watch r.o.b and wft. Don’t think he said anything about him being a bad guy

Nope. He 100% said that Plant wasn't a heroic character, which is why it's in. That, and well, very unique. He wanted to use his creative talent for it.

Also, that's cause he compared them to Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch, and R.O.B.(unique moveset). Here's the quote;

"Sakurai selected Piranha Plant because a game full of protagonists and major players isn’t terribly interesting. A lineup full of plain-old heroes is boring. Just like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, Piranha Plant brings something special and unique to the roster. He anticipates Piranha Plant to be a rather unconventional fighter."

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

WFT is not compared at all.

 

[fogbadge]

Nope. He 100% said that Plant wasn't a heroic character, which is why it's in. That, and well, very unique. He wanted to use his creative talent for it.

Also, that's cause he compared them to Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch, and R.O.B.(unique moveset). Here's the quote;

"Sakurai selected Piranha Plant because a game full of protagonists and major players isn’t terribly interesting. A lineup full of plain-old heroes is boring. Just like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, Piranha Plant brings something special and unique to the roster. He anticipates Piranha Plant to be a rather unconventional fighter."

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

WFT is not compared at all.

wait he cited interestingness as why? Since when has sakurai cared about being interesting half the roster is boring

and why out of all the non hero and unique body types did he go for PP? It’s only half an explanation. That man makes less sense than most people

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

wait he cited interestingness as why? Since when has sakurai cared about being interesting half the roster is boring

That's pretty subjective and it's clear that most people don't find the roster boring.

Besides, he means interesting abilities. He considered Chrom but left him out originally cause he had nothing new between Marth and Ike. PP, no matter how you slice it, has a lot of interesting and different abilities. It makes sense he still has this view. Don't forget both DLC Fire Emblem characters alone have unique and interesting takes on the sword movesets.

 

[fogbadge]

That's pretty subjective and it's clear that most people don't find the roster boring.

Besides, he means interesting abilities. He considered Chrom but left him out originally cause he had nothing new between Marth and Ike. PP, no matter how you slice it, has a lot of interesting and different abilities. It makes sense he still has this view. Don't forget both DLC Fire Emblem characters alone have unique and interesting takes on the sword movesets.

see it’s stuff like that that leads me to believe sakurai has a very selective imagination. PP was not the only character who fitted this criteria and never said why PP out of all of them so it remains a random choice

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

see it’s stuff like that that leads me to believe sakurai has a very selective imagination. PP was not the only character who fitted this criteria and never said why PP out of all of them so it remains a random choice

Of course it's random. It's a random mook that had options. And a non-hero. Thus, you weren't going to get more than a non-hero anyway for that slot.

 

[fogbadge]

Of course it's random. It's a random mook that had options. And a non-hero. Thus, you weren't going to get more than a non-hero anyway for that slot.

well it’s the randomness that upsets us. We know PP wasn’t chosen over toad it’s the fact that toad was never even considered. When a generic mook gets in over one of the biggest characters of the series we’re allowed to be disappointed. PP was also the last in long list of other characters who were chosen while toad never even crossed his mind so there’s that as well. he just an example of what we see as the bigger problem

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

well it’s the randomness that upsets us. We know PP wasn’t chosen over toad it’s the fact that toad was never even considered. When a generic mook gets in over one of the biggest characters of the series we’re allowed to be disappointed. PP was also the last in long list of other characters who were chosen while toad never even crossed his mind so there’s that as well. he just an example of what we see as the bigger problem

How do you know Toad wasn't considered for Ultimate?

It's that slot of course he wasn't for. Thus, complaining about PP related to Toad makes no sense. They have zero possible correlation in options.

There's literally no evidence Toad wasn't considered for a playable character at this time. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. He wasn't considered for a very special DLC slot, but there wasn't exactly a reason why he would be considered. It was a villain/mook or nothing. And that's fine. Just cause they're the same franchise doesn't mean they were in the same situation for the slot.

Besides, it's why I wish we had Shy Guy. That would've been a great character to have. It's one of my favorite characters since Paper Mario~ PP is still neat, though, on its own merits as a silly surprise character. Not that everyone is going to like the mook and that's fine. It's a mook. It's still a character in the games, but not much of one. Funny thing is the only DLC that could've made sense is Sephiroth, and that would mean zero FFVII content added beyond what was already in base. It's not everyone's favorite mook, I'm sure, but it's better than the only other villain choice at the time(since the villains in base were considered separately and all).

I mean, if there's a cool mook you wanted instead of PP, I'd get ya. If not, I say just complain about mooks getting in on their own(instead of stealing a slot that it couldn't steal from most characters who were viable at the time) or let it go. Both are logical approaches. I've seen tons of mook complaints. It's not that big of a deal. Smash is an oddball since Sakurai has made it clear that the term character refers to the "form of someone playable", not related to personality, or does it matter if two are the same person, cause it's a different character in context. That's how he uses it.

 

[Ed-boy]

I've mostly accepted Plant for what it is, the matter of Toad's inclusion had nothing to do with it, & it's indeed another villain, but still...
Shy Guy would've been killer...
or Goomba, that've been genuinely hilarious.
Picture the first Goomba from World 1-1 rising from the ashes to exact revenge on the Bros.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've mostly accepted Plant for what it is, the matter of Toad's inclusion had nothing to do with it, & it's indeed another villain, but still...
Shy Guy would've been killer...
or Goomba, that've been genuinely hilarious.
Picture the first Goomba from World 1-1 rising from the ashes to exact revenge on the Bros.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-enemy-with-social-anxiety-shy-guy-for-smash.463119/ Well, Shy Guy has a good topic~

https://smashboards.com/threads/goomba-is-tired-of-getting-stepped-on-goomba-support-thread.458870/ ...Speaking of. XD

 

[Pacack]

I was upset with Plant's inclusion initially, but I couldn't continue to resent it after playing it. Sakurai managed to make it my favorite character representation of the Mario franchise in Smash thus far.

• Mario feels somehow removed from his feeling in modern Mario games to me. Something about his physics just doesn't feel like Mario to me. His moveset feels somehow more tied to his previous Smash incarnations than the mainline Mario titles that I've played, like NSMBW, Galaxy, SM3DW, and Odyssey. I also just don't like how serious he is all the time when he's all happy-go-lucky and smiling constantly in Mario titles.
  • Dr. Mario feels to me like a callback to the Smash 64 Mario, who was a variation on the idea of a traditional fighting game shoto with his fireball/spin attack/uppercut trifecta. His gameplan was streamlined to be even more pronounced in Ultimate, with a dramatic advantage/disadvantage state and a heavier reliance on pills. And, naturally, he has a linear recovery and poor aerial mobility to make his offstage worse than most characters, as 64 tended to do.
• Luigi feels far more faithful to himself, with his physics feeling perfect, and his usage of the poltergust in his grab makes a lot of sense...but I just don't like playing as him that much. He relies on combos off of grab that feel cheesy to me in some abstract way, and I dislike his poor air mobility and linear recovery, even if they're perfectly logical interpretations of his movement in the Mario titles.
• Peach's personality has evolved over the years in the Mario games while she's stayed the same in Smash, to the point that the character feels somewhat disconnected from her modern self. While I do enjoy her moveset and how she feels to play, she's also so technical that it feels at odds with the intention of the float mechanic in SMB2, which is designed to give a little leniency for platforming beginners.
  • Honestly, Daisy's personality shines through far better than Peach's, but I just don't like Daisy as much as I like Peach.
• Bowser is maybe the most disconnected from his modern self in Smash. He's practically a godzilla OC in Smash, and while he feels scary in a very boss character way, it's nothing like his in-game self now. You can really tell that Sakurai designed Bowser before Nintendo gave the character a consistent personality. He's an interpretation of the pre-Gamecube era of Bowser (or, really, an extrapolation of a Koopa more broadly) which made sense at the time, but which doesn't anymore.
• Rosalina & Luma are basically just Sakurai's take on a puppet character. Nothing's wrong with that, but less emphasis was put on how she felt in the Mario series (I'm still mad that she doesn't have the Galaxy spin), with basically just her specials calling back to Galaxy and her being a floaty. It works well enough to make certain references to Galaxy, but she strikes me as more of a Smash Bros puppet character than a Mario character.
• Bowser Jr. is conceptually much more of a love-letter to the Mario franchise, in particular to the NSMB series and SMB3. That said, I felt like his personality got a little generalized to allow for the inclusion of all the Koopalings. Beyond that, while the vast majority of characters in Smash Bros have a clear archetype that nicely represents some quality of their source games, I don't understand Bowser Jr.'s moveset when I put it all together. He has certain interesting qualities, but I struggle with understanding him when those parts are put together. My best explanation is that he's meant to be a bratty, hit-and-run character with options that are committal like a mid-level boss character, but it doesn't feel like I'm playing as either Bowser Jr. from NSMB or the Koopalings from SMB3 when I play him for whatever reason.
• Piranha plant, on the other hand, is spot-on. He feels like a playable stage hazard: limited mobility, but strong options for forcing opponents to move carefully around him too. He also has tons of references to Mario games, with everything having a clear inspiration. Out of the entire Mario cast, none feels as much like the Mario games as he does. On top of that, he shows more personality than the likes of Mario or Bowser despite not even having eyes.

Really, that's the reason I've kept on wanting Toad to be added. It isn't just that he's a Nintendo all-star and the last of the main playable cast; he's an opportunity to finally represent the Mario franchise effectively. Despite having 7 (9 with echoes) Mario characters in Smash, we still don't have a character that feels like a Mario protagonist. We have Plant, who scratched a certain itch when it came to faithfully representing the franchise, but he fulfills an entirely different niche when compared to Toad because he wasn't meant to feel like any playable Mario character.

Really, that's why I'm okay with the idea of Waluigi too. Waluigi wouldn't represent the mainline games, but he could be quite interesting if they made him a Mario spin-off character. He would fill a different niche than Toad, but it would provide another opportunity to show off the Mario franchise in all its weird, wacky, zany glory. Which, ultimately, I don't think has yet been done.

 

[Lenidem]

It's funny how every time someone says he doesn't like the Plant, there is someone to answer:

A. - "Like every fighter, Piranha Plant wasn't chosen over YOUR favorite character!"
B. - "Sakurai had his own reasons to choose Piranha Plant for this slot!"
C. - "It's a BONUS character!"
D. - "Get over it!"

A. We are aware of that, thank you. But the fact is that the Plant took the ressources needed to develop a full character. Therefore, we can think that other characters should have make it instead. And the Plant coming from the Mario-universe, it's only natural to compare it to other characters from this universe, like Toad or Waluigi.

B. We are also aware that he had something specific in mind. We just don't think that this reasons were good reasons. People are allowed to like or dislike some aspects of a game. In this case, it's the fact that they chose a mook over important and beloved characters that bother a lot of people.

C. Nothing is free. Today, it's a bonus you have to pay for. Before, it was available for "free" only with preorder, something not everybody could do. Anyway, it's true that nobody's forced to pay for it. But again, the Plant took the ressources needed to develop a full character. So we're allowed to believe that other choices would have been better, for base game or as downloadable content.

D. Thank you for the psychological advice. Here is mine in return: maybe you should "get over" the fact that some people dislike choices you might approve. As uge as Ultimate's roster is, there are still several glaring omission, so every slot matters. On a discussion about the characters you want, it's only natural to mention the ones you have a problem with.

 

[fogbadge]

How do you know Toad wasn't considered for Ultimate?

It's that slot of course he wasn't for. Thus, complaining about PP related to Toad makes no sense. They have zero possible correlation in options.

There's literally no evidence Toad wasn't considered for a playable character at this time. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. He wasn't considered for a very special DLC slot, but there wasn't exactly a reason why he would be considered. It was a villain/mook or nothing. And that's fine. Just cause they're the same franchise doesn't mean they were in the same situation for the slot.

Besides, it's why I wish we had Shy Guy. That would've been a great character to have. It's one of my favorite characters since Paper Mario~ PP is still neat, though, on its own merits as a silly surprise character. Not that everyone is going to like the mook and that's fine. It's a mook. It's still a character in the games, but not much of one. Funny thing is the only DLC that could've made sense is Sephiroth, and that would mean zero FFVII content added beyond what was already in base. It's not everyone's favorite mook, I'm sure, but it's better than the only other villain choice at the time(since the villains in base were considered separately and all).

I mean, if there's a cool mook you wanted instead of PP, I'd get ya. If not, I say just complain about mooks getting in on their own(instead of stealing a slot that it couldn't steal from most characters who were viable at the time) or let it go. Both are logical approaches. I've seen tons of mook complaints. It's not that big of a deal. Smash is an oddball since Sakurai has made it clear that the term character refers to the "form of someone playable", not related to personality, or does it matter if two are the same person, cause it's a different character in context. That's how he uses it.

ok its clear you havent quite grasped that this isnt about PP. when this started we were discussing all the mario characters who we feel got in over toad. i really dont get why you feel the need to defend PP so much but we were having a discussion as to why we're all so defeatist when you swung everything around to be all about PP. arguing that theres no evidence to say he wasnt included is pointless cause theres no evidence to say he was considered and is a logic that can be applied to so many characters. we are fully aware that its just an assumption on our part, but its an assumption based on how 4 smash games have treated him. also it wasnt a special dlc slot as theres plenty to suggest he was a base roster character who was held back.

in short this is about toad not PP. its got nothing to do with us complaining about him or disliking and everything to do with the long line of other mario characters who got in far more easily. i dont know why you feel the need to defend PP more than doc, daisy and the koopalings who we were also grumbling about espicially when you yourself say he wouldnt be your pick

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't have any time to fully reply. Freaking woke up too late for work. I'll edit it in later.

 

[fogbadge]

I don't have any time to fully reply. Freaking woke up too late for work. I'll edit it in later.

or you could not police out opinions and leave us to wallow in our misery in peace

 

[Pacack]

It's funny how every time someone says he doesn't like the Plant, there is someone to answer:

A. - "Like every fighter, Piranha Plant wasn't chosen over YOUR favorite character!"
B. - "Sakurai had his own reasons to choose Piranha Plant for this slot!"
C. - "It's a BONUS character!"
D. - "Get over it!"

A. We are aware of that, thank you. But the fact is that the Plant took the ressources needed to develop a full character. Therefore, we can think that other characters should have make it instead. And the Plant coming from the Mario-universe, it's only natural to compare it to other characters from this universe, like Toad or Waluigi.

B. We are also aware that he had something specific in mind. We just don't think that this reasons were good reasons. People are allowed to like or dislike some aspects of a game. In this case, it's the fact that they chose a mook over important and beloved characters that bother a lot of people.

C. Nothing is free. Today, it's a bonus you have to pay for. Before, it was available for "free" only with preorder, something not everybody could do. Anyway, it's true that nobody's forced to pay for it. But again, the Plant took the ressources needed to develop a full character. So we're allowed to believe that other choices would have been better, for base game or as downloadable content.

D. Thank you for the psychological advice. Here is mine in return: maybe you should "get over" the fact that some people dislike choices you might approve. As uge as Ultimate's roster is, there are still several glaring omission, so every slot matters. On a discussion about the characters you want, it's only natural to mention the ones you have a problem with.

I want to be clear that I don't want to demean anyone who disliked Plant's inclusion with my post, and I just used the opportunity to share my general thoughts on the way Mario characters have been represented. Everyone's opinions will be different, and it's okay if people don't like Plant.

 

[Lenidem]

I want to be clear that I don't want to demean anyone who disliked Plant's inclusion with my post, and I just used the opportunity to share my general thoughts on the way Mario characters have been represented. Everyone's opinions will be different, and it's okay if people don't like Plant.

No worries at all. Your post was very interesting.

 

[Pacack]

Unrelated to anything, but I wanted to post this old art that I have saved. I think YoshiandToad drew it back in the Smash 4 days, so they're more likely to recognize who everyone is. I wonder how many people are still on these forums besides them and myself.

 

[fogbadge]

Unrelated to anything, but I wanted to post this old art that I have saved. I think YoshiandToad drew it back in the Smash 4 days, so they're more likely to recognize who everyone is. I wonder how many people are still on these forums besides them and myself.

View attachment 318557

Well I recall I was added later

 

[Dan]

...Plant wasn't put in instead of Toad. Plant was specifically a non-heroic character pick. Is Toad magically a non-hero or a villain now? Didn't think so.

Seriously, get over it already. Toad was never going to take the spot of a special non-heroic DLC character.

Also, why are we throwing pointless heat at Daisy again? Come on, guys. This is getting massively silly now. Sakurai doesn't hate anyone. Plant was literally only plausible to have another Mook in its place(Shy Guy, for instance, who honestly is the only other viable Mario/Yoshi character with the same amount of potential for a huge moveset and is super unique enough. Plant itself is also a very unique body shape).

I would've taken Toad too, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean he would've had the chance here anyway. The most he got was... slightly more usage in Peach's moveset. And then another generic Blue Toad for Daisy.

Daisy was an easy Echo though. She's massively popular, didn't need much changes(she has only slight hurtbox changes at best, due to different animations. Least Echo change ever), and was being constantly used by Nintendo too, so relevance was never an issue. Even starting coming back to the Super Mario mainline games lately(Super Mario Run, Super Mario Maker had her as a DLC costume too).

"Non-heroic character pick"... well, I wasn't aware Sakurai puts artificial constraints on the roster picks. To me, a character slot is a character slot -- open to any and all gaming characters, but I guess I can't help if he makes up imaginary rules on how to choose the characters lol.

And I will reserve the right to dislike the character for as long as I want.

"Sakurai selected Piranha Plant because a game full of protagonists and major players isn’t terribly interesting. A lineup full of plain-old heroes is boring. Just like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, Piranha Plant brings something special and unique to the roster. He anticipates Piranha Plant to be a rather unconventional fighter."

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

WFT is not compared at all.

First of all, I totally disagree with him... how is a game of "major players" boring? There's still so many worthy characters who need to get in. To me, Plant is different from ROB, G&W and Duck Hunt. The latter three are important pieces of Nintendo history; Plant is a character who can't even move and was chosen to get YouTube reactions in the age of sensationalism.

And now that I've read this article, I believe you're projecting a belief onto him that this roster spot had to be a "generic mook"... like he explained why he chose the character and now you're assuming any other character would have to fall in the same guidelines? No.

It's funny how every time someone says he doesn't like the Plant, there is someone to answer:

A. - "Like every fighter, Piranha Plant wasn't chosen over YOUR favorite character!"
B. - "Sakurai had his own reasons to choose Piranha Plant for this slot!"
C. - "It's a BONUS character!"
D. - "Get over it!"

A. We are aware of that, thank you. But the fact is that the Plant took the ressources needed to develop a full character. Therefore, we can think that other characters should have make it instead. And the Plant coming from the Mario-universe, it's only natural to compare it to other characters from this universe, like Toad or Waluigi.

B. We are also aware that he had something specific in mind. We just don't think that this reasons were good reasons. People are allowed to like or dislike some aspects of a game. In this case, it's the fact that they chose a mook over important and beloved characters that bother a lot of people.

C. Nothing is free. Today, it's a bonus you have to pay for. Before, it was available for "free" only with preorder, something not everybody could do. Anyway, it's true that nobody's forced to pay for it. But again, the Plant took the ressources needed to develop a full character. So we're allowed to believe that other choices would have been better, for base game or as downloadable content.

D. Thank you for the psychological advice. Here is mine in return: maybe you should "get over" the fact that some people dislike choices you might approve. As uge as Ultimate's roster is, there are still several glaring omission, so every slot matters. On a discussion about the characters you want, it's only natural to mention the ones you have a problem with.

You nailed it bro!!!! Amazing post! This post is hall of fame level.

or you could not police out opinions and leave us to wallow in our misery in peace

Hey, this isn't fair; as long as we're all being civil they have every right to state their side of the argument.

 

[fogbadge]

Hey, this isn't fair; as long as we're all being civil they have every right to state their side of the argument.

Well it seemed a little patronising to me

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"Non-heroic character pick"... well, I wasn't aware Sakurai puts artificial constraints on the roster picks. To me, a character slot is a character slot -- open to any and all gaming characters, but I guess I can't help if he makes up imaginary rules on how to choose the characters lol.

The reality is, he does put constraints on specific roster spots. But they're fairly special situations only. It's no different from having a slot open only for a Gen VII Pokemon, or the retro slot that is Ice Climbers. He's even chosen a character for a specific niche(Zero Suit Samus for having a new Metroid and female rep). I'm not saying this is good.

And I will reserve the right to dislike the character for as long as I want.

Wasn't saying otherwise. That doesn't mean people can't criticize points being made either. In fact, pretty sure it's expected if not how these threads are supposed to work. It's actually been made clear that threads are supposed to allow for criticism and avoid one-sided discussion. There's a very clear difference in bait/trolling and legitimate disagreements, of course. But I don't see any Toad bashing here, so. No trolls abound, thankfully.

First of all, I totally disagree with him... how is a game of "major players" boring? There's still so many worthy characters who need to get in. To me, Plant is different from ROB, G&W and Duck Hunt. The latter three are important pieces of Nintendo history; Plant is a character who can't even move and was chosen to get YouTube reactions in the age of sensationalism.

...Actually, various Piranha Plant species can move, so. Not entirely true. Also, to be fair, it's a very iconic and known mook, moreso than people recognize R.O.B. or Game & Watch(Mr. Game & Watch doesn't technically count, since that's an actual OC name for the combined abilities of the character). Duck Hunt may not be as known either. But the point was that they're surprise picks, ones people don't generally expect. That's what he was talking about.

He didn't say major players. He said heroes, a completely different thing. Bowser is a major player and a villain. Toad is... let's be honest, rarely as major as Luigi, Mario, Peach, and Bowser, respectively. I'd say it's closer to Rosalina or Bowser Jr., who both have quite a few major and lesser roles as is. Though that said, I have to look at why he chosen Bowser Jr., cause a lot of the problematic points of "should've gotten in over this character" as an argument instead of a wish is that in order for that to be a consideration for that particular slot, they need to actually fit the same criteria. It's actually how choosing characters work. Sakurai could've chosen any single mook that was remotely iconic with the same explanation. PP was just that one. Shy Guy, Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Bokoblin, etc. Or just a simple villain like Black Knight, since that's the same point.

And now that I've read this article, I believe you're projecting a belief onto him that this roster spot had to be a "generic mook"... like he explained why he chose the character and now you're assuming any other character would have to fall in the same guidelines? No.

Any other character in that slot would've had to have the same criteria, to be clear. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to be in that specific slot. It doesn't mean it's a good pick or anything like that. And yes, that is the case. Nobody who didn't fit the guidelines would've made sense in that context.

Non-hero doesn't mean "Mook", it just means non-hero. It could've been a villain too. Of course, the only DLC villain... is Sephiroth, so it makes me wonder if he rarely sees villains or non-heroes as a typical thing to add. The way he talks about is that he considers this factor actually legitimately special in Smash. If you look at the entire roster, the list of non-heroic characters is fairly small. Bowser, Ganondorf, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, Sephiroth, Villager, Isabelle, Ridley, King K. Rool, Dark Samus, Wolf, and technically Dark Pit(as he was a villain at first). Among those, Duck Hunt is not a villain. Mr. Game & Watch, Villager and Isabelle are protagonists, but aren't of the hero style character in any way. Wolf is an anti-villain, somewhat like Dark Pit. Bowser and Bowser Jr. have done heroic acts before, but are generally villains.

This is possibly why he also compares PP to Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch, and R.O.B. Two of them can be heroic technically, while one is never a hero(Duck Hunt). R.O.B. is odd since I don't think he directly appears in his games, but is the controller only. I can't legit remember that one. But I'm not sure how his games work, so I'm not sure if he even counts as a protagonist. Still, I think he just means they're surprise picks at best.

Hey, this isn't fair; as long as we're all being civil they have every right to state their side of the argument.

Correct. Nobody is policing opinions. Replying to opinions civilly with counterparts is just a normal conversation on a public forum.

Though I do agree it did come off as patronizing with "get over it", so fair enough on that. Either way, the whole "stole this character's spot" cannot ring true, which is my core point. In no way am I saying it was a good choice in itself by default(I like the concept, but that doesn't mean it was the right move to make for a bonus character either. PP is very controversial, and that's understandable. The only other mooks are technically Pokemon at best, and most of them already had personalities in the anime or were based upon the anime, so they have an entirely different feel to them. At most, Incineroar doesn't exactly take from the anime personality, where the others have either appeared or aren't really much different. Even Ivysaur still resembles the general and silly personality of the anime ones. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard, and Pichu are all anime-based in personality, and some in movesets, even if just by luck in Jigglypuff's case. Lucario is the only one to use an anime-specific mechanic, being Aura at the time. Greninja also resembled the anime abilities come Ultimate, but was not based upon it from the start).

But yeah, you can see why they're better received in comparison. They had usually an already known personality. PP didn't, nor did Incineroar as much as the others(Greninja was lucky that it was popular in the games, and was only pushed hard in the anime, which it wasn't chosen cause of the anime either, funnily enough).

...Fixed the post, I think.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Probably one of the biggest contention point for me is that Plant feels like a "Sakurai's Blessing"-type of character in the vein of how his inclusion seems to mainly serve his ideologies of "interesting playable character" alone, but is put on a generally unremarkable character with no legacy or point of special attention attached to them outside of Smash prior - and only becomes majorly notable, if not outright infamous by them being added to Smash, making their newfound popularity feel pretty unearned and even dare I say "cheap" when you look it being in place of "major players" of Nintendo's history in comparison.

At least Duck Hunt felt like he had major place on gaming pop-culture, so seeing it Smash was pretty cool as I was pretty familiar with the antics and effect it had on folk knowing about him through the various VG Flash-animation parodies among other things. Then there's likes of Firebrand, an anti-hero based on the infamous Red Arremer-mooks from Ghosts 'n' Goblins-games, getting his own spinoff series in forms of Gargoyle's Quest, and appearing in Capcom's crossover games - or to lesser extent, Penta in Crash Team Racing, a character representing the one-off Penguin-mooks from Crash 2 yet having his unique character come in making his unintended "unfinished testing character"-trope being fully realized with in Nitro-Fueled, thanks to Beenox.

Meanwhile Plant has nothing subverting itself as an enemy mook from what we saw it in Mario-series to make it feel unique beyond it like Penta did, or had any spinoffs based on him like Firebrand did- it just feels like he's notable and infamous ONLY because Smash Bros-series made him into a character for pretty unremarkable reason by average game developer's standards - it's a basic enemy NPC character in a game with characters that have had more character or legacy outside of the Smash-series. It I'd apply this same argument on Wii Fit Trainer since Sm4sh.

I'd argue we could have had Petey Piranha take place of Piranha Plant and do whatever it does on lieu of his own moves, and we could have had not only a mook-based character based on these very enemy species, but also we could have had long-running fan favorite from 2000s' Mario-lineup in Smash, which would have been more well-received across the board. Yet he's just a Final Smash to Plant instead in his SSE-reprised glory.

I feel like this wholly represents why Plant's addition in Smash feels bit "cheap" or "relatively bland" next to what characters drew most people in back in 64 to-Brawl-days - in that it mainly serves to show that any character can be in Smash as long as they're "interesting" according to Sakurai, any other reasons be damned as they are deemed "bias" or "personal perceptions" of what fits the series according to his vocal defenders.
I have long disagreed with this as it makes Plant feel ultimately inconsequential fill-in of sorts to only Sakurai's hardly-challenged opinions on a franchise full of recognizable icons and cult classic favorites good chunk of the time: it's like we could have had just about any other mook-based character become merely notable additions - BECAUSE Sakurai chose to work on them out of nowhere according to his preferences, proving that the roster feels more about him as a sacred cow of a game director in the current Smash-community, over what the demographic of series were accustomed to thinking seeing back when they became familiar with Smash-franchise, and naturally ended wondered the possible immense fun of playing as Nintendo-characters they grew up with... namely Toad, Waluigi, Kamek, Paper Mario...

In whole, I feel like I can't criticize Plant for a simple reason of "he doesn't fit/belong to a game like Smash" today because I got bulldozed on and on about how "any character can be in a game as fully featuring ton of popular icons of Nintendo and beyond as long as they're interesting". I still don't find myself too impressed by Plant due thinking there could have been even more done with his moveset at times, and knowing he was just one of many possible mooks we could have had in place, makes him even less remarkable to me and all the more dumbfounding to see being "cool" nowadays in spite of all that.

Because that's the power Smash-franchise keeps granting on whatever characters it adds - no matter how outlandish or out-of-place they seem according to the community.

It kinda renders my hype on the series and respect for Sakurai's choices or ideologies moot pretty often at times, knowing there doesn't have to be any line of understandable logic beyond what he considers acceptable over the general favorability and consensus within the community as seen with the building of the Big Three back in Smash 4-days ().

So at best today, I can only assume that the reason why Toad's still missing from Smash's boat is because he is lacking as much moveset potential as Wario represented through his Wario Land-centric brutish moves. A long time ago a playable Wario in that style seems to make sense for many, but to Sakurai it didn't for some reason - and at the end, not only is Wario been marketed long as the Mr.Farty Man by Nintendo ever since, but the the former people ended deemed "boring" or even salty for not appreciating Sakurai's thinking outside of the box to make Wario even "stronger", as he himself put it.

So by same vein, it's reasonable for me to argue Toad was just so boring to be even bothered be fully realized in any capacity, that even a Piranha Plant proved more "fun" and eventually "fitting" character to a game like Smash - because at the end, it falls in line with the impressions we got from Sakurai's game philosophy over the years explaining Toad's biggest omission to the series' roster to date: and according to Smash's current fanbase and reception on whatever he makes, he's utterly incapable of doing wrong decisions or odd choices in the end.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd apply this same argument on Wii Fit Trainer since Sm4sh.

i dont you should though. wii fit trainer is by no means and mook and is certainly not generic and true while the did not have a lot of personality they did have some and that comes clearly across in smash. and lets not forget that wii fit was hugely successful so theres that as well

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something to remember is Sakurai doesn't really look at it as "special versions of characters" for a game. Being generic doesn't matter because it's still a character in the universe by all means. This is why characters can easily be split up despite being the same person. And not even if it's a clone situation. In fact, they aren't clone situations anyway(Zelda/Sheik and Samus/Zero Suit Samus). Dr. Mario isn't really a separated character very well, as there's little difference other than one move that Mario wouldn't normally have(Megavitamins). Young Link is the only other case, and it's regular Link that does stuff he can't do in OOT slightly more often, with Downthrust and Upthrust being a constant among all Link variations. Toon Link is unrelated to either Link version.

The thing is, Petey wouldn't have the moveset options either. It has a different bodyshape from regular Piranha Plant and its multiple variations, meaning he has to make up way more. PP actually has a tiny bit of made up moves with most of them coming from the species. So he simply chose the one who was significantly easier to design. That, and Petey isn't an iconic as PP, but that's just a fun factor. Both would still apply to the non-hero part he was going for. One odd thing is all the Bosses in Smash have never been directly playable as the form we know them in. They made an all new Ridley design which Smash used. He's not a port over from Brawl or 4. Giga Bowser is not playable whatsoever, despite being an easy as hell clone(or Echo), whereas most other bosses are not. I'm not sure I can even say size is a factor, but Ridley was way smaller in his first Metroid appearance, and isn't even that huge in every game(in fact, one of his canonically forms is a fairly small animal form). It's just that the large boss fight is highly iconic.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

i dont you should though. wii fit trainer is by no means and mook and is certainly not generic and true while the did not have a lot of personality they did have some and that comes clearly across in smash. and lets not forget that wii fit was hugely successful so theres that as well

I can see what you mean, but what I meant was she didn't exactly seem to exist much on her own due her general role as coach NPC on Wii Fit-games - it's mainly Smash that went to supplant the idea that she could appealing as an individual beyond that. If she never appeared in Smash-games, none would exactly bat an eye on as she is today, or demand Wii Fit needs to be represented in Smash-series, at least in similar levels as more popular requests we had seen during speculation.

I mean, some folk even thought she was an Assist Trophy during her getting surprise-revealed back in E3 2013 after Villager and Mega Man. Not that I couldn't blame them, she looked to be fitting on that role infinitely more than half of the highly requested characters we had seen ending on eternal Assist Trophy-servitude despite recurring bouts of vocal support.

 

[fogbadge]

I can see what you mean, but what I meant was she didn't exactly seem to exist much on her own due her general role as coach NPC on Wii Fit-games - it's mainly Smash that went to supplant the idea that she could appealing as an individual beyond that. If she never appeared in Smash-games, none would exactly bat an eye on as she is today, or demand Wii Fit needs to be represented in Smash-series, at least in similar levels as more popular requests we had seen during speculation.

I mean, some folk even thought she was an Assist Trophy during her getting surprise-revealed back in E3 2013 after Villager and Mega Man. Not that I couldn't blame them, she looked to be fitting on that role infinitely more than half of the highly requested characters we had seen ending on eternal Assist Trophy-servitude despite recurring bouts of vocal support.

i dont dispute that i just think thats its a large enough distinction from PP and you cant apply the exact same logic to both

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

i dont dispute that i just think thats its a large enough distinction from PP and you cant apply the exact same logic to both

That is true to some degree - I at least am alright with seeing Ring Fit Girl turn up at some point in Smash-games as a playable fighter to fully complement with Wii Fit Trainer as representatives of Nintendo's fitness game IPs.

 

[fogbadge]

i do hope we get something on tuesday to add to toads ever growing list of playable appearances

 

[Dan]

He didn't say major players. He said heroes, a completely different thing.

What?! Read it again. He said "protagonists and major players". Now you're just making stuff up.

You're arguing semantics anyway... my whole point was that to me a game of unique main characters is not boring.

Any other character in that slot would've had to have the same criteria, to be clear. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to be in that specific slot. It doesn't mean it's a good pick or anything like that. And yes, that is the case.

You have absolutely 0 proof of this. He never said that slot was reserved for a non-protagonist/major player; he only explained why he chose PP.

I have long disagreed with this as it makes Plant feel ultimately inconsequential fill-in of sorts to only Sakurai's hardly-challenged opinions on a franchise full of recognizable icons and cult classic favorites good chunk of the time: it's like we could have had just about any other mook-based character become merely notable additions - BECAUSE Sakurai chose to work on them out of nowhere according to his preferences, proving that the roster feels more about him as a sacred cow of a game director in the current Smash-community, over what the demographic of series were accustomed to thinking seeing back when they became familiar with Smash-franchise, and naturally ended wondered the possible immense fun of playing as Nintendo-characters they grew up with... namely Toad, Waluigi, Kamek, Paper Mario...

God, this is so brilliant.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What?! Read it again. He said "protagonists and major players". Now you're just making stuff up.

You're arguing semantics anyway... my whole point was that to me a game of unique main characters is not boring.

No, I simply misread it. Nobody is perfect. Really, this would be a much smoother conversation if people weren't sniping at each other and throwing around accusations. And apologies for doing that earlier to some degree too.

However, it's not semantics. Like, at all. Minor characters have been in Smash before anyway(not very many, mind you), and he considers it also important to have variety. I honestly got most interested in Smash when it had more than just heroes. It's subjective. But only having heroes is boring as hell. Even minor villains is cool, cause it keeps the variety open entirely. That's actually the thing; PP is the first one that is 100% minor(the rest could be argued as less important to some stories, though), a very important thing about a video game fighting crossover. Every single series has characters who simply aren't important the overall game's story. PP fits that to a tee, which shows that Smash allows for tons of unique characters, appealing to multiple people.

You have absolutely 0 proof of this. He never said that slot was reserved for a non-protagonist/major player; he only explained why he chose PP.

I'm saying that as a developer. I won't deny I don't have hard proof, but I know how the character process works since I literally am part of various projects, including a Smash fangame. Niches are a thing that he's outright admitted to. The thing is, when you argue that a slot is stolen, that only works if the character in question is in the same criteria. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been chosen in the same exact situation. This is why the slot argument is rather poor. There's two instances where it actually is true; Robin was chosen over Chrom specifically, stealing his literal slot by definition. Ice Climbers was chosen over multiple Retro reps, doing the same thing. Otherwise, it's not really a thing that makes sense.

"I wanted this character because so and so" is literally saying "this is how I wanted this particular slot to be." It's just that, as you said, semantics, because they're identical in practice. Keep in mind I am not saying "I think this character should've taken this slot", because that's a completely different argument. Hell, I would've loved Toad as a bonus way more... and coincidentally they're both known for being species too, with a few individual members in general. So they're not off beyond one being a protagonist and one being an antagonist at best. ...Though that said, the Toad guards Peach has ironically are minor characters in the story(the main Toad isn't). So maybe in that sense, I could see Toad being good in that slot. But it kind of works less when he also notes that he doesn't want heroic characters, and the guards and main Toad are all heroic, so... I don't really see how anything but a minor villain or mook would've been chosen for that particular slot. In that context, anyway. Alternatively, it was PP or nothing for that slot. Since as you said, there's no proof that anyone else could've worked. We may have not gotten the first planned DLC character if he didn't want that particular character. I do consider this a very valid point too, if it helps.

I hope that further explains what I mean. But yes, to be clear, I'm completely calling out the "slot stealing argument", as it doesn't hold any real water. Not the "I wish this slot was different".

I also want to clear up something in that regard too; that's actually normal for these threads. If you make a poor argument, it's within everyone's right on this forum to disagree peacefully with it. Nobody is protected from that. That's not how free speech works. Criticism is something you should expect. Obviously, stuff like trolling/flaming are a completely different thing and don't count as criticism anyway. Trust me, I wouldn't be saying this if I was free from criticism either. Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother replying back when my points were criticized. It's only fair if everyone is able to have their points criticized. Not allowing criticism is actually policing thoughts, realistically. There's a clear line between criticism and complaining, though. Complaining doesn't mean trolling, mind you, though they aren't mutually exclusive.

Anyway, it's better to agree to disagree. I want you to read my points, and I'm not asking you remotely to agree either. I have experience in this field, which is why I'm able to explain it in this way. I won't say every developer works that way(we know Sakurai has worked that way before, though).

 

[Pacack]

Okay, first, I want to post the full statement from Sakurai regarding Piranha Plant.

The Super Smash Bros. series has always spawned much fan speculation for characters that will be included, but with Piranha Plant, you have given players one of the most unpredictable inclusions. How does it feel to be able to still surprise fans even so many years later? Was that one of the intents of the inclusion of this character?

I’m actually not paying too much focus on the surprise element when we introduce a new fighter. The surprise element quickly fades once the announcement has been made.

Rather, I believe it’s important to have a good balance as a game. In the past titles in the series, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt Dog were some of the examples we offered outside of people’s typical expectations.

However, if we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical “hero/heroine” type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much variety. It’s probably not very interesting. Correct?

Also, unlike some main characters from some (not widely known) franchises, Piranha Plant is a character everyone knows well.

So, we know that Piranha Plant was not added primarily because he was surprising.

Rather, Piranha Plant was chosen because he was a character that was not a "typical hero/heroine type" and still "a character everyone knows well."

He mentions that some characters are added that are "outside of people's typical expectations," and that it's more interesting than having a lineup of fighters that everyone expects or who are all heroes and heroines. But he implies that a character being surprising isn't as important as making them interesting.

I would interpret these statements to mean that Sakurai included Plant not to fulfill some arbitrary "surprise character" niche, but because he thought the character was interesting, well-known, and provided some variety to the roster, particularly as a character that wasn't a hero.

I also think that he found the idea of a Piranha Plant interesting because it acts as an obstacle to a platforming protagonist, and making a fighter with that concept at its core was unique. Piranha Plant specifically is designed to play like a stage hazard, and shows off an aspect of platforming games that wasn't playable before.


I also feel the need to quote a Famitsu column from Sakurai.

...Making something, and completing it is a huge undertaking, and there are a lot of places where fans can’t see. It’s like building a house, but people focus on a single painting that’s hung up on a wall in one room, and fixate on it, and keep listing off their complaints of that painting. These situations are very common.

For me, a familiar example would be…in Smash, Cloud recently became a playable character. And there were people that strongly criticized that, saying “Stop adding non-Nintendo characters!” This is completely ignoring the fact that I’ve added many, many Nintendo characters to Smash. It also ignores the many fans who were overjoyed at Cloud’s addition. Looking at the big picture, I am on the receiving end of countless amounts of truly trivial statements.

However, I think that’s okay. Different people value different things differently, and they should stay honest to that. For example, even I, as a fan (?) have my complaints with Star Wars. I honestly dislike Episode VI’s long-winded pacing and how easily the Empire Stormtroopers fall to the Ewoks. I think that the re-releases are redundant and superfluous. But, more than that, I am grateful that they showed me these various worlds, and let me enjoy them. Normally, I just don’t have the opportunity to vocalize my feelings of gratitude.

It’s particularly easy to voice criticisms, and opinions are very strong. When people yell loudly, it also invites mob mentality and conformity. It’s easy for negative opinions to be amplified, while positive opinions are quieted. People don’t understand the circumstances and state of affairs behind development, and it’s not allowed for creators to make excuses. There are even people who feel emotionally battered and quit working.

It's okay if you didn't like Piranha Plant's inclusion. Sakurai himself says that it's okay for people to honestly have differences in values.

But, ultimately, Sakurai added Piranha Plant because he thought it would be interesting and provide a new gameplay experience for players. From the start, Sakurai has prioritized making Smash Bros. a game that players can find novelty and enjoyment in. Making the game a collection of All-Stars and icons has never been his primary vision. (Even the first game in the series only used Nintendo characters because he didn't expect that people would buy the game if it was a new IP, even if the idea was new and interesting.)

I want Toad too. But I don't think the way to convince people that he's interesting and worth including is by criticizing unique characters that Sakurai has designed which also fill a cool niche, like Piranha Plant or Rosalina. It's not a direct competition, and even if it was, we're not getting anywhere by fighting the last war.

 

[fogbadge]

he considers it also important to have variety.

anyone else thinks thats a little rich coming from the man who added four marths?