Toad/Captain Toad for Smash, Toad Brigade Assemble!

[Arcadenik]

It's very difficult to find it, but it was among the same thing that talked about why Villager wasn't playable. I'm still looking.

It's not the Famitsu column either. It was a page that had two pictures, one of Toad, and one of Villager. There was also something about Nintendogs, if I remember right.

I do recall Nintendog was mentioned along with Villager.

I still think Sakurai added Duck Hunt Dog so a Nintendog can be subject to violence without controversy. That, and if you take away ducks, NES Zapper, clay pigeons, cowboys, and cans, the Duck Hunt Dog would be just a Nintendog... a Nintendog Assist Trophy that just laughs at you like the Duck Hunt Dog detractors used to suggest.

But I can’t recall Sakurai mentioning Toad with Villager.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

sakurai has never said anything about toad, but the fact that hes a major character in nintendo biggest franchise who is constantly looked over in favour of other characters it does begin to feel like hes trying to avoid him after a while

I find that hard to believe. I can say the same things for characters like Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Magolor, Marx, Impa, Octoling, Ninten, a shy guy, etc.
The way I see it, Toad isn't a fighter because he's only starred in one game, Captain Toad, that's been ported twice and has otherwise been limited to cameos in other games. In light of all of the Fire Emblem characters we have, this shouldn't be a major issue, but it seems like Sakurai holds different IPs to different standards in terms of newcomers. Before plant was revealed, Mario already had 8 fighters, which is a lot. Piranha Plant is literally a joke fighter, added simply so the dev team could have fun with something. It was either plant, or nothing at all. And besides, the Super Mario universe has tons of characters to pick from, Toad is just one.

I can make the argument of avoidance/bias for hundreds of characters. Just because a character isn't in Smash doesn't mean Sakurai is against them for whatever reason. I'd really like to see some proof, like a statement, character scrapping, etc. that implies Sakurai is truly biased against adding Toad in the game.

Actually yes, I can blame Sakurai for Rex not being a playable fighter. Sakurai himself said they haven’t even started development on DLC Fighters besides Piranha Plant. They will start working on DLC Fighters after the game comes out. So no, the game won’t be delayed for a few months just for Rex.

Oh, and the roster was decided upon before Sun and Moon were even finished. Sakurai himself admitted there’s a Pokémon slot when he was talking about Incineroar.

The thing is, Rex's character wasn't finished by the time Ultimate's roster was decided upon. There was no way he was going to be in the base game. As for DLC, I see your point, but let's begin with the fact Rex isn't likely in the first place. They did the best they could to bring him in the game, they're most likely going to focus on other characters who don't have anything to their name.

As for Sun and Moon, they do those kind of things all the time. Corrin's spot was reserved for a fighter from a recent game, for example. Incineroar must have been finished when they chose him, just not the full game.

 

[ChronoBound]

It's very difficult to find it, but it was among the same thing that talked about why Villager wasn't playable. I'm still looking.

It's not the Famitsu column either. It was a page that had two pictures, one of Toad, and one of Villager. There was also something about Nintendogs, if I remember right.

Well, I am sure it would have been talked about and used by detractors of Toad for years if that was the case. It might be that you might not be remembering it correctly since it was so long ago.

I have known about about Sakurai's opinions regarding even some obscure characters (like Lip). If you are wondering about Sakurai's opinion on Lip, he considers Panel de Pon a "masterpiece", but digressed about how many people would know who Lip even is in regards to being a playable character. This was in response to a fan that asked him to put more female fighters into Smash Bros, and used Lip as a prime example. This was on the Japanese Melee site.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I do recall Nintendog was mentioned along with Villager.

I still think Sakurai added Duck Hunt Dog so a Nintendog can be subject to violence without controversy. That, and if you take away ducks, NES Zapper, clay pigeons, cowboys, and cans, the Duck Hunt Dog would be just a Nintendog... a Nintendog Assist Trophy that just laughs at you like the Duck Hunt Dog detractors used to suggest.

But I can’t recall Sakurai mentioning Toad with Villager.

Yeah, as my edit shows, I misremembered it.

Anyway, as I noted, no reason to believe he hates Toad. All he did was increase his role to some degree in this game. It'd be nice if bothered to talk about why Toad never got chosen, though.

 

[fogbadge]

I find that hard to believe. I can say the same things for characters like Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Magolor, Marx, Impa, Octoling, Ninten, a shy guy, etc.
The way I see it, Toad isn't a fighter because he's only starred in one game, Captain Toad, that's been ported twice and has otherwise been limited to cameos in other games. In light of all of the Fire Emblem characters we have, this shouldn't be a major issue, but it seems like Sakurai holds different IPs to different standards in terms of newcomers. Before plant was revealed, Mario already had 8 fighters, which is a lot. Piranha Plant is literally a joke fighter, added simply so the dev team could have fun with something. It was either plant, or nothing at all. And besides, the Super Mario universe has tons of characters to pick from, Toad is just one.

I can make the argument of avoidance/bias for hundreds of characters. Just because a character isn't in Smash doesn't mean Sakurai is against them for whatever reason. I'd really like to see some proof, like a statement, character scrapping, etc. that implies Sakurai is truly biased against adding Toad in the game..

well for a start toad hasnt starred in one game (wario's woods) and the argument hes isnt a fighter cause hes only had one title to himself is flawed as hes proved capable of fighting in many other games (smb2 sm3dw etc) and each of the characters you list cant really be used as examples cause they all fill different roles in their series, waluigi has been in a lot less games than toad, marx has been in only two games in his series and you cant use the octolings cause they would fall under the same reasoning as you problem against rex (unless you mean the generic enemy ones) its clear sakurai holds different franchise to different standards the whole thing is down to him why else would fire emblem have more character than more successful series and its true mario series has load of potential fighters but why should they get in before toad a character who has been in just about every game in the franchise way more than daisy waluigi and geno and the reasoning that because there are other characters in the series they could be considered in favour as well is flawed in itself as you could use that argument on any character

as for your dlc point your argument against rex is pure speculation and corrin got in due to insentient begging from the smash team

 

[Mogisthelioma]

well for a start toad hasnt starred in one game (wario's woods) and the argument hes isnt a fighter cause hes only had one title to himself is flawed as hes proved capable of fighting in many other games (smb2 sm3dw etc) and each of the characters you list cant really be used as examples cause they all fill different roles in their series, waluigi has been in a lot less games than toad, marx has been in only two games in his series and you cant use the ocolings cause they would fall under the same reasoning as you problem against rex (unless you mean the generic enemy ones) its clear sakurai holds different franchise to different standards the whole thing is down to him why else would fire emblem have more character than more successful series and its true mario series has load of potential fighters but why should they get in before toad a character who has been in just about every game in the franchise way more than daisy waluigi and geno

Whoa slow down there.

It should be noted that what I meant by "starred," was that he was the main focus of the game. Smb2 and sm3dw, sure, he's in the game, but the focus is of course....Mario. Toad really doesn't gain that much merit for being in those. Besides, they haven't used many assets/ideas from the Super Mario/NSMB games as much as larger titles, save the turnip pull as Peach's down B.

I never said I had a problem with Rex. In reality, the amount of games a character appears in plays no role if they only act as support/cameos. The argument I see a lot is that since Toads have been in almost every Mario game, they deserve a spot for their constant appearances. The thing is, Toads have almost never been important to the story of games they appear in. Toads are mainly just Mario and Luigi's helpers. The times they've been playable, in some of the NSMB games and SM3DW, they were just other options to play as in a game focused on none other than Mario. The basic Mario platformers almost never get assets pulled from them, at most an item (such as the fire bar). There isn't much to create a moveset from them when looking at the platformers toads appear in.

As for more story driven games, Toads are only limited to cameo appearances, once more as Mario's helpers. The one game where Toads, more specifically, Captain Toad, is important to the story, is a spinoff game that's been ported twice. Captain Toad himself only makes cameo appearances otherwise.

Considering your comparison....what? You're not wrong when you say that Waluigi has made less appearances than Toads, but Waluigi has always had a large role in the games he appears in. He's always playable and does the best job of representing Mario spinoffs, especially since the genesis of his character was from a Mario spinoff. He's literally the embodiment of the spinoff games, and basically everyone else, save the made-up characters such as Baby Rosalina, are just there since they're Mario characters. Sure, Toad is playable in some of the Mario spinoffs, I'm not denying that, but that holds no greater purpose than Mario himself. And again, at the end of the say, the amount of games a character appears in is irrelevant if they'er not major games, or if they only play minor roles.

Again, your comparison of Toad to Marx is a bit faulty. To begin with, you took my statement out of context. I never compared Toad to Marx, and I never implied in any way that Marx was more deserving of a spot than Toad is. I simply meant that I can make the same argument that Sakurai is biased against him as Toad, simply for not being in the game. Marx has made major appearances in at least four Kirby games I can think of off the top of my head, you claimed he was in only two, and is referenced to or makes cameos in almost every other, already making him more important to the Kirby story line than any specific Toad has. I can make the same argument that he's made consistent appearances and played important roles as you are for Toad.

I was, in fact, referring to the generic Octoling figure, since Inkling is just a generic inkling figure. Octoling would be just a skeletal copy and paste. Since Octolings play a heavy role in the story mode of Splatoon (not including the Octo Expansion), again, I can make the same argument that Sakurai is biased against them citing the same reasons you are for Toad.

Sakurai probably holds Mario to a higher standard since undoubtedly Mario is the king of video games. The IP might was well set an example for how other franchises represented through Smash should work, not to mention being run from a triple A studio. Waluigi versus Toad is a tricky argument, but at the end of the day it matters what "Toad" is. If you're referring to an average Toad, that falls to the generic figure argument. And again, Piranha plant is just a joke fighter and is not meant to push any sort of boundary for fighter criteria. If you mean blue/yellow toad from the Mario platformers, those are the only games they make major roles in, just in a generic Mario game not driven by any sort of story. If you're referring to Captain Toad, he i a specific Toad with a real name and such, but only makes a major appearance in one Mario game and doesn't have an impact on the story of Mario.

TL;DR: While Toads certainly have appeared in a lot of games, they don't consistently have any major effect on the story of Mario and can't be compared to the likes of Waluigi, Marx, or the Octoling. I never compared Toad to other characters, I simply stated that I can make the same argument that Sakurai is biased against Toad for literally any other character who isn't in the game.

I've failed to see a convincing argument that Sakurai is biased against Toads for unjust reasons. I genuinely think Captain Toad would be a nice addition to Smash, but as far as I'm concerned, the belief that Sakurai has an unfair resentment of Toads and avoids them in Smash is ridiculous.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Whoa slow down there.

It should be noted that what I meant by "starred," was that he was the main focus of the game.

Toad has actually starred in four games as lead protagonist not including ports. Allow me to enlighten you!

Wario's Woods although having Wario's name in the title focuses around Toad(the playable hero) stopping Wario(the antagonist) from destroying the Mushroom Kingdom's woods. It was the last game on the NES and also received a SNES port with upgraded animations and graphics.
Really fun puzzle game that had Toad stacking monsters, diamonds and bombs, kicking enemies across the floor and gave him the unique ability to walk up walls. Would highly recommend as it's on every Virtual Console and ends with Toad blowing Wario's castle up with bombs.

The other two are Japan only titles and pretty obscure on the Satellite system so I don't blame people for not knowing of these ones. One was a quiz thing Toad hosted and the other was some sort of karaoke game.

Lastly of course we have Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker. Everyone knows of this gem and it's ports. Really good fun again if a little easy at times.

 

[Arcadenik]

"Piranha Plant is just a joke fighter and is not meant to push any sort of boundary for fighter criteria."

It doesn't matter. Piranha Plant happened. Joke fighter or not, it still threw the entire generic argument out of the window.

Really, we have had generic species since the first game.

(not Red himself but his Pokémon)

And we have had joke fighters since the first game.



The generic argument just doesn't hold water anymore, especially with Piranha Plant... a generic species that isn't even the main character or the series mascot or the player avatar or even had "an impact on the story"... that sounds like Jigglypuff but Piranha Plant makes it crystal clear that the generic argument is over.

 

[Albo]

The argument I see a lot is that since Toads have been in almost every Mario game, they deserve a spot for their constant appearances. The thing is, Toads have almost never been important to the story of games they appear in.

First off, I wanna say that it's really valuable to have your opinion here. Not saying you're anti-Toad or anything, but I think it's useful to see some of the arguments against him/counterarguments to the justifications we've been pushing.

I don't think it's just the fact that Toads have been in every Mario game; after all, Goombas, Koopas, and Piranha Plants have basically been in every game as well (we all know how that last one turned out...!), and a lot of them have even secured playable roles in the spinoffs. And given that the Mario series, main and spinoff alike, tends to pull from the same pool of characters for each game, appearances in each game clearly aren't enough to warrant a position in Smash.

We can even see the holes in this reasoning with some of the Mario reps that did get in; Rosalina essentially only appeared in three games and only had a major impact in Galaxy. All of her other appearances have been in the spinoffs, though to be fair, those appearances are clearly in abundance! Looking at her abilities that are rooted in the games, not many of them really made it to Smash; I don't recall her interacting with the Lumas the way she does in combat before Smash, and most of her moves seem to just use her wand or do something vaguely space-themed. Then you have Bowser Jr., who doesn't use a ton of moves specific to him or the Koopalings but instead represents the Koopa Troop, a greater Mario entity compacted into one fighter. Perhaps Toads haven't been massively influential to the stories of the Mario games, but then again, this is Mario, a series that will strip its characters down to the most basic archetypes. By that logic, no one was really necessary outside Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser. Even Yoshi is just a glorified power-up, which is probably why he's classified under his own series instead.

The times they've been playable, in some of the NSMB games and SM3DW, they were just other options to play as in a game focused on none other than Mario. The basic Mario platformers almost never get assets pulled from them, at most an item (such as the fire bar). There isn't much to create a moveset from them when looking at the platformers toads appear in.

A fair point, but remember that the NSMB games are some of the most widely-played games on the market, and SM3DW was still the flagship 3D Mario for a generation ( it being on the Wii U undoubtedly limited its influence, but I digress). Mario and Luigi don't really pull anything from the platformers since they were some of the first characters created for Smash, but as recent newcomers seem to pull more from their games of origin, I don't see why Toad couldn't use the moves and items Mario and Luigi didn't take, which frankly is... a lot. Mario games have some of the most iconic power-ups in gaming, which leaves a lot of potential for a moveset especially considering the character we're discussing is the literal power-up connoisseur of the franchise. Heck, even take some of the basic moves like ground pounds and have you have the basis for some standard attacks. The platformers may not see a lot of representation in Smash, but I don't see why Toad couldn't embody them if Mario and Luigi aren't getting their movesets overhauled.

You're not wrong when you say that Waluigi has made less appearances than Toads, but Waluigi has always had a large role in the games he appears in. He's always playable and does the best job of representing Mario spinoffs, especially since the genesis of his character was from a Mario spinoff.

I could be wrong as I haven't played every spinoff game, but from what I've played (a few of the Mario Sports titles, almost every Mario Kart, every Paper Mario, and quite a few Mario Partys, I believe!), Waluigi tends to just be Wario's sidekick. It's true that in the sports games he's got the definite edge over Toad, but even then I don't recall seeing him do a ton of things other characters couldn't. And...maybe this isn't much of a counterargument, but Peach uses a tennis racket and golf club in her side smash, so technically those games are being represented already. I'd say Mario Party has the two on pretty even ground, as Waluigi is playable in more of the games but Toad still has pretty significant roles in them; after all, if he's not collecting the Stars, he's often the one giving them away. Mario Kart is definitely Toad's territory; he's one of the few playable in every one, and even Waluigi missed out on some after his introduction (what even went on in Mario Kart 7's character selection process??) To be completely fair, though, Mario Kart is already represented in Bowser Jr.'s moveset, so, uh, there's that. Then you have the RPGs, which Waluigi is completely absent from. Toads are still generally helpers here, yes, but they also are often tutorial characters, advisors, and item hosts who are clearly knowledgable in whatever Mario knows or uses. Maybe a bit of a stretch, but having Toad use Paper Mario items or moves is fair game here; Toadette did teach Mario all of his advanced moves in TTYD, and everyone knows how prolific Toads are in the recent games.

If you're referring to an average Toad, that falls to the generic figure argument. And again, Piranha plant is just a joke fighter and is not meant to push any sort of boundary for fighter criteria. If you mean blue/yellow toad from the Mario platformers, those are the only games they make major roles in, just in a generic Mario game not driven by any sort of story. If you're referring to Captain Toad, he i a specific Toad with a real name and such, but only makes a major appearance in one Mario game and doesn't have an impact on the story of Mario.

As GameXplain put it in their pro-Toad video, a Toad in Smash would probably represent all of these Toads, kind of like how Bowser Jr. represents the greater Koopa Troop and Piranha Plant now stands for the whole species. Smash tends to squeeze a ton of history into one character anyway, even if it doesn't necessarily fit just that character (Duck Hunt and Pac-Man being the first characters that come to my mind), so it wouldn't even be a new thing if the same were to be done for Toad. And, from my understanding, there's a lot of untapped Mario-themed potential to make a moveset out of, and Toad(s) holding practically every type of role in the franchise, in my opinion, definitely helps him. Advisor, host, playable character, tutorial figure...all of that culminates in a character who can do (almost) everything the other major characters can, and games like Captain Toad and even the spinoffs (especially those mushroom-inspired moves) show that he has quite a few tricks up his sleeve unique to himself. And this is just based on the source material; if Smash really wanted to get creative with Toad, there's a lot he could do. We even see hints of this in Ultimate, with him using that gigantic head his entire body in Peach's throws, an idea that itself could carry a lot of standard moves.

As for Sakurai's bias against Toad, I'm mixed on that myself. I want to make one thing clear first: whatever his opinion on Toad may be, it doesn't influence my respect for him and the insane amount of work he puts into his projects. While he hasn't said anything on Toad the character (at least, as far as I'm concerned...), Toad's role in the Smash games has been pretty...demeaning until Ultimate. It's true that these changes are better late than never, but that's still three titles of Toad being a helpless meat shield. So while I myself wouldn't go so far as to say he hates Toad, it does make me question his opinion on the character if he's willing to view that as a compromise for not having him be playable. I mean, who are we kidding? No one would want to see their favorite character or potential newcomer relegated to that.

 

[fogbadge]

Whoa slow down there.

It should be noted that what I meant by "starred," was that he was the main focus of the game. Smb2 and sm3dw, sure, he's in the game, but the focus is of course....Mario. Toad really doesn't gain that much merit for being in those. Besides, they haven't used many assets/ideas from the Super Mario/NSMB games as much as larger titles, save the turnip pull as Peach's down B.

I never said I had a problem with Rex. In reality, the amount of games a character appears in plays no role if they only act as support/cameos. The argument I see a lot is that since Toads have been in almost every Mario game, they deserve a spot for their constant appearances. The thing is, Toads have almost never been important to the story of games they appear in. Toads are mainly just Mario and Luigi's helpers. The times they've been playable, in some of the NSMB games and SM3DW, they were just other options to play as in a game focused on none other than Mario. The basic Mario platformers almost never get assets pulled from them, at most an item (such as the fire bar). There isn't much to create a moveset from them when looking at the platformers toads appear in.

As for more story driven games, Toads are only limited to cameo appearances, once more as Mario's helpers. The one game where Toads, more specifically, Captain Toad, is important to the story, is a spinoff game that's been ported twice. Captain Toad himself only makes cameo appearances otherwise.

Considering your comparison....what? You're not wrong when you say that Waluigi has made less appearances than Toads, but Waluigi has always had a large role in the games he appears in. He's always playable and does the best job of representing Mario spinoffs, especially since the genesis of his character was from a Mario spinoff. He's literally the embodiment of the spinoff games, and basically everyone else, save the made-up characters such as Baby Rosalina, are just there since they're Mario characters. Sure, Toad is playable in some of the Mario spinoffs, I'm not denying that, but that holds no greater purpose than Mario himself. And again, at the end of the say, the amount of games a character appears in is irrelevant if they'er not major games, or if they only play minor roles.

Again, your comparison of Toad to Marx is a bit faulty. To begin with, you took my statement out of context. I never compared Toad to Marx, and I never implied in any way that Marx was more deserving of a spot than Toad is. I simply meant that I can make the same argument that Sakurai is biased against him as Toad, simply for not being in the game. Marx has made major appearances in at least four Kirby games I can think of off the top of my head, you claimed he was in only two, and is referenced to or makes cameos in almost every other, already making him more important to the Kirby story line than any specific Toad has. I can make the same argument that he's made consistent appearances and played important roles as you are for Toad.

I was, in fact, referring to the generic Octoling figure, since Inkling is just a generic inkling figure. Octoling would be just a skeletal copy and paste. Since Octolings play a heavy role in the story mode of Splatoon (not including the Octo Expansion), again, I can make the same argument that Sakurai is biased against them citing the same reasons you are for Toad.

Sakurai probably holds Mario to a higher standard since undoubtedly Mario is the king of video games. The IP might was well set an example for how other franchises represented through Smash should work, not to mention being run from a triple A studio. Waluigi versus Toad is a tricky argument, but at the end of the day it matters what "Toad" is. If you're referring to an average Toad, that falls to the generic figure argument. And again, Piranha plant is just a joke fighter and is not meant to push any sort of boundary for fighter criteria. If you mean blue/yellow toad from the Mario platformers, those are the only games they make major roles in, just in a generic Mario game not driven by any sort of story. If you're referring to Captain Toad, he i a specific Toad with a real name and such, but only makes a major appearance in one Mario game and doesn't have an impact on the story of Mario.

TL;DR: While Toads certainly have appeared in a lot of games, they don't consistently have any major effect on the story of Mario and can't be compared to the likes of Waluigi, Marx, or the Octoling. I never compared Toad to other characters, I simply stated that I can make the same argument that Sakurai is biased against Toad for literally any other character who isn't in the game.

I've failed to see a convincing argument that Sakurai is biased against Toads for unjust reasons. I genuinely think Captain Toad would be a nice addition to Smash, but as far as I'm concerned, the belief that Sakurai has an unfair resentment of Toads and avoids them in Smash is ridiculous.

i think my fellow brigade members have covered most of the points rather well so ill go for other things (i do apologise for being off topic)

i didnt know about marx's appearance in mass attack, but thats still only three games cause why count fun pack and super star ultra as separate games when their the same one, marx isnt important to the over all story of kirby he was the main villain in one game in a game of multiple games and the other two times were just cameo contributing nothing to the plot, from your own wording you it sounded like you were comparing him to toad

for all we know the octolings and toad were both left out for the exact same reasons

and true our belief that sakurai is biast against toad may be nothing more than paranoia but as toad is an icon of nintendo more so than some of the other nintendo characters in the game

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I seriously want Toad to be in the game. All I'm saying is that I can't come to the conclusion that Sakurai is biased against Toads, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[fogbadge]

I seriously want Toad to be in the game. All I'm saying is that I can't come to the conclusion that Sakurai is biased against Toads, it just doesn't make sense.

we know its all just pure speculation and paranoia about sakurai being biast again toad, but it is him who decides who gets in

 

[YoshiandToad]

Curiously Captain Toad hasn't been spotted amongst the first 448 Spirits in GameExplain's recent video either. Toadette in her Treasure Tracker outfit has, and we've had a couple of regular Toad spirits seen but no Captain yet. Granted it's an incomplete list as Rayman and Bandana Waddle Dee were both spotted but still.

At first I thought maybe it was because he's part of the stage thus isn't included but we saw Dillon's got a Spirit too. Where's the Captain at? Between this and still no sign of him on New Donk I'm wondering what the heck is happening. Does he only appear under certain strict conditions? Was he removed for some reason? Is it good news? Bad news? CURIOUSITY STRIKES.

I can make the argument of avoidance/bias for hundreds of characters. Just because a character isn't in Smash doesn't mean Sakurai is against them for whatever reason. I'd really like to see some proof, like a statement, character scrapping, etc. that implies Sakurai is truly biased against adding Toad in the game.

I was away from my PC over the weekend and typing on my mobile is a bit of a pain so forgive the late response here.

One of the reasons I feel Toad's fanbase has been supsicious of Sakurai's opinions on Toad maybe not being overly positive is his role in previous Smash games. Very few other characters have had such a demeaning role in Smash as being a hapless meatshield who's entire job is to block attacks for another which didn't really represent the Toad that goes on adventures we knew and loved. Say what you will about Waluigi, Ridley, etc their roles all allowed them to fight rather than just get smashed in the face whilst flailing their arms around pathetically.
Thankfully this has been tweaked in Ultimate so Toad's treatment is a little more respectful which is genuinely a great improvement over Melee, Brawl and Sm4sh.
Peach mains at first glance don't seem very happy with the change I've noticed so I'm wondering if this additional dislike may help a playable Toad's cause in the future.

As for importance of Toad; playable Toads have always been a staple of Mario. In fact to the point that outside Mario and Luigi, Toad is probably the most active character between SMB2, Warios Woods, Captain Toad Treasure Tracker, 3D World and Super Mario Run even if we discount New Super Mario Bros(as they're clearly meant to be different individuals without a doubt) that's a lot of playable platforming!

In official media he is often depicted as the fourth friend in artwork with Mario, Luigi and Peach to the point where you could easily make a case similar to Bandana Waddle Dee being his Kirby counterpart.
The fact we've had Dr. Mario, Rosalina, Daisy and to a lesser extent Jr and the Koopalings is a bit like Dee being held back so they can include Shadow Kirby, Susie Hartman, Adeline, Daroach and the Squeak Squad to me. Deesgusting, and now, whilst I like Piranha Plant, it's a bit like having a Scarfy thrown in before Dee too. Just weird choices all around for the Mario squad as the Mushroom Kingdom is THE important setting of the entire series and very few are more associated with said kingdom more than the titular mushroom people.

After Smash 64, Toad managed to poll high enough to be in the top 20 requests for Melee proving himself a popular choice at the time, and Sakurai's sort of done a half job with his inclusion and left it at that for years on end. The fan requests died off each game for Toad as it became more and more clear he wasn't escaping Peach's dress and thus the fans who have stuck with him can appear to be a bit gloomy as we've lost a lot of the vocal support we once had.

Toad may well be one of the longest due individuals for Smash now alongside Dixie Kong. Together with her and Dee they make up what I call 'The missing Nintendo All Stars'.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I was away from my PC over the weekend and typing on my mobile is a bit of a pain so forgive the late response here.

Just don't use mobile. It's pretty bad.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Stumbled across this article whilst looking for some Toad based news:

"Captain Toad DLC or I'm canceling my pre-order" Not as negative as the title makes out.

It's a nice little fan rambling about why the author wants Captain Toad in Smash. I notice a lot of the other threads do this so I'm going to try and interject some positivity to our thread. We can be a bit overly negative at time.

Also Fan Art Friday:

This one's by Ziggyfin. I really like the layout of this piece. Click their name to see it on DeviantART.

With this piece a thought popped into my head. We know Captain Toad is the leader of the Toad Brigade...what if his moveset consisted of summoning the other members?

I've only been thinking of them as alt costumes, but what if they were used as part of his moveset? Perhaps as summons that can help the Captain overcome obstacles. First thought was like Toad's Mario Tennis Ace's Entrance animation:

Or even Mario Golf: World Tour's animations:

As Toad is often depicted as one amongst many, why not showcase that as part of his moveset?

 

[fogbadge]

ah yes ive got that fan art favourited on deviantart

and yes itd be awesome if the whole brigade helped out in his moveset

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Stumbled across this article whilst looking for some Toad based news:

"Captain Toad DLC or I'm canceling my pre-order" Not as negative as the title makes out.

It's a nice little fan rambling about why the author wants Captain Toad in Smash. I notice a lot of the other threads do this so I'm going to try and interject some positivity to our thread. We can be a bit overly negative at time.

Also Fan Art Friday:
View attachment 179260
This one's by Ziggyfin. I really like the layout of this piece. Click their name to see it on DeviantART.

With this piece a thought popped into my head. We know Captain Toad is the leader of the Toad Brigade...what if his moveset consisted of summoning the other members?

I've only been thinking of them as alt costumes, but what if they were used as part of his moveset? Perhaps as summons that can help the Captain overcome obstacles. First thought was like Toad's Mario Tennis Ace's Entrance animation:

Or even Mario Golf: World Tour's animations:

As Toad is often depicted as one amongst many, why not showcase that as part of his moveset?

Love that art!

 

[LYD]

Hi everyone, I’d like to share a Captain Toad moveset I’ve came up with:

Spoiler: Lyd’s moveset

Attributes

Gimmick:
Captain Toad has too heavy of a backpack to jump, we all know that, so everytime he jumps he releases the backpack. The backpack changes his attributes, two of his specials are different and it enables Captain Toad to use Smash attacks, however, it does add a couple frames to most of its moves in return. After dropped its backpack is treated as an item akin to K. Rool’s crown, and is respawned if it happens to fall off the stage.

Alternate Costumes:

1. Red Captain Toad
2. Yellow Captain Toad (based on the brigade member)
3. Green Captain Toad (based on the brigade member)
4. Blue Captain Toad (based on the brigade member)
5. Magenta Captain Toad (based on the brigade member)
6. Pink Captain Toadette
7. Lime Captain Toadette (based on the travelling sisters)
8. Orange Captain Toadette (based on the travelling sisters)

Entrance:
The Toad Brigade spaceship passes and drops Captain Toad on the battlefield.

Up Taunt:
Captain Toad celebrates raising his arms and dancing.

Side Taunt:
Captain Toad yawns.

Down Taunt:
Captain Toad picks up a turnip and gets a coin for it.

Weight (with backpack): 125 (between and)
Weight (without backpack): 75 (same as)
Walk Speed (with backpack): 0.75 (same as )
Walk Speed (without backpack): 1.25 (same as )
Run Speed (with backpack): 1.25 (between and )
Run Speed (without backpack): 2.083 (same as )
Air Speed (with backpack): 0.45 (drastically slower than )
Air Speed (without backpack): 1.25 (same as )
Falling Speed (with backpack): 3.472 (drastically faster than )
Falling Speed (without backpack): 1.25 (same as )


Grounded Moves

Neutral Attack:
Captain Toad kicks its foe, little startlag, considerable endlag, good damage, and average knockback.

Forward Tilt:
Captain Toad headbutts its opponents. Has average startlag and plenty of endlag, dealing big damage and above average knockback. Probably its best KO option without the backpack. Can be angled slightly.

Up Tilt:
A quick upward headbutt, this one has little lag and damage, but a surprising amount of knockback growth. Which means it acts as a combo starter at low percentages and a knockout option at very high percentages.

Down Tilt:
Captain Toad summons a mushroom in his front and back. The move is quick, weak and also has a big knockback growth, but only enough to KO at very high percentages.

Dash Attack:
Captain Toad spins slides on the ground and hits its opponents with an upwards kick.

Forward Smash:
This move will fail if Captain Toad lacks his backpack. Captain Toad takes his Super Pickax and swipes it forward, average lag, but massive damage and strong knockback.

Up Smash:
This move will fail if Captain Toad lacks his backpack. Captain Toad swings his Super Pickax upward, less-than-average lag, with strong damage and knockback.

Down Smash:
This move will fail if Captain Toad lacks his backpack. Captain Toad spins once while holding his Super Pickax. It has noticeable lag, but the damage and knockback.


Aerial Moves:

Neutral Aerial:
Captain Toad spins while keeping his horizontal orientation in a similar fashion to Super Mario Galaxy’s Spin. This aerial has extremely little start- and end-lag with a decent priority. But damage and and range are mediocre.

Forward Aerial:
Captain Toad releases his rope forward as if it was a whip. Range is good but not quite Simon and Richter levels of good, but the move can be used to grab the ledge too and is a bit faster than Simon and Richther’s. However, neither the damage output nor the knockback is the best.

Back Aerial:
Very similar to Forward Aerial, but slightly slower and slightly more powerful.

Up Aerial:
A quick headbutt with little start-, end-, and landing-lag. Low damage but the knockback is great for combos.

Down Aerial:
Captain Toad performs a quick ground pound. If Captain Toad packs a backpack this move spikes and is thrice faster. Otherwise it’s weak and rather slow. Has plenty of landing lag though.


Grab Moves

Grab:
Captain Toad uses a short rope to grab opponents. It has good range, but has noticeable lag for a grab.

Pummel:
Captain Toad quickly headbutts a grabbed opponent multiple times.

Forward Throw:
Captain Toad releases his opponent from the ropes and hurls them forward. Can KO at notably high percentages near the edge but does measly damage.

Back Throw:
Captain Toad hurls his opponent backward with a 180 degree spin. Slightly more knockback than forward throw, but about the same damage.

Up Throw:
Captain Toad heabutts upwards, this move has little knockback and endlag and average damage.

Down Throw:
Captain Toad jumps above his opponents and headbutts them downward making them bounce off the ground. Below average endlag makes it a decent combo starter, the move has good damage too.


Special Moves

Neutral Special (Fireball):
Captain Toad throws a Fireball very similar to that of Mario.

Side Special (Mine Cart Ride—with backpack):
Captain Toad hops on his Mine Cart and slides towards the direction he pressed. The Cart deals good damage and knockback and Captain Toad can press B again to throw turnips that deal small damage and average knockback. The move has considerable start- and end-lag, though. Speaking of endlag, the move end whenever Captain Toad jumps out of it—thus releasing his backpack with little endlag—or by pressing down with the controller, which makes him put his Cart in the backpack. A Cart can’t be summoned if there’s another Cart on screen.

Side Special (Cat Rundown—without backpack):
Captain Toad transforms into Cat Toad, and quickly dashes sideways, if Cat Toad hits a wall using this move he will climb it up at a slightly lower speed. This move has less-than-average knockback and damage but is quite fast and has great frame data.

Up Special (Super Pickax Throw—with backpack):
Similarly to Simon and Richter’s move, Captain Toad throws his Super Pickax in an arc, it has plenty of startlag, but massive damage and knockback for a projectile. Can be very helful to edgeguard characters with predictable recoveries without having to drop the backpack.

Up Special (Propeller Mushroom—without backpack):
Captain Toad eats a Propeller Mushroom and transforms into Propeller Toad. This move has a multi-hit hitbox akin to K. Rool’s recovery but it’s much faster and has much more vertical length. After the full recovery, Propeller Toad has a much slower falling speed because the propeller is still spinning. During of after move, the down direction can be inputted to make Toad fast fall with a spiking hit. This, however, does use up its recovery so it’s only recommended if Captain Toad wants to trade a stock or can recover with Side B’s wall climb mechanism.

Down Special (Double Cherry):
Captain takes a while to perform this move, but after a couple frames an identical clone is created. The clone behaves just like the original Captain Toad and is controlled identically, not to mention they’re indistinguishable. However, if any Captain Toad takes any hit or falls off the stage, it suddenly vanishes and nothing happens to the actual Captain Toad. This move can’t be used if a clone is already active.

Final Smash (Toad Brigade):
Captain Toad calls his brigade and jumps aboard it to activate an attack similar to Dragoon but marginally stronger and with a much bigger hitbox although slightly slower.

 

[Propeller Toad]

Tbh, a weight altering character in Smash could be very unique and the backpack load/unloading idea is still an idea that I can get behind. Really do like the moveset; however, I feel Captain Toad could use a different neutral special besides a fireball. Perhaps a headlamp burst that can slow enemies too? Or even tossing out a diamond could be hilarious as well.

Considering that Yoshi's new FS even involves a literal Yoshi army stampeding onto the field (ala Melee opening), I feel that having more Toads involved in Toad/Captain/Toadette's moveset would be fine - like a celebration of all Toads throughout Mario history.

On the other hand, now that the game has been getting quite a bit of leaks in terms of the music department, a question (bit of spoilers)?

Spoiler

Has anyone found a track related to Treasure Tracker as of yet in Ultimate? Quite a bit of the newer tracks have been leaked including this amazing remix of the overworld theme from SMB2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJLJTdIg008 !

However, I find it extremely odd if Captain Toad was denied a track from his own game as well. Treasure Tracker was developed by Nintendo EAD and EPD as well that were responsible for most of the Mario mainline platformers as well. It's one thing if the Captain didn't get in along with no stage, but not even a single music track as of yet? It's unusual.

Of course, not all music tracks might have been leaked yet, but it has gotten me curious.

 

[YoshiandToad]

So Toad Brigade...I used Peach on Smash Ultimate's demo at Birmingham MCM con today.

Toad seems much more fast and powerful as the neutral special but the throws seem a bit laggy. Overall Toad counter feel better to use to me. Only managed a few grabs as I was against Zero Suit Samus, Little Mac AND Bayonetta though who are all pretty speedy.

Unfortunately we could not select the stage so I haven't been able to check New Donk for Captain Toad just yet. Will keep looking if I can play again!

 

[fogbadge]

So Toad Brigade...I used Peach on Smash Ultimate's demo at Birmingham MCM con today.

Toad seems much more fast and powerful as the neutral special but the throws seem a bit laggy. Overall Toad counter feel better to use to me. Only managed a few grabs as I was against Zero Suit Samus, Little Mac AND Bayonetta though who are all pretty speedy.

Unfortunately we could not select the stage so I haven't been able to check New Donk for Captain Toad just yet. Will keep looking if I can play again!

you lucky guy

 

[YoshiandToad]

Spoiler: Smash Bros. Ultimate spoiler! Warning!

Sadly didn't get to play again tonight and didn't witness the New Donk stage at all but our boy has been revealed as a spirit.

Why he wasn't the face of the treasure hunt section is beyond me unless he and Toadette swap roles as host? Definite possibility.

Apparently the DLC has been leaked. Tread carefully brigade.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

Spoiler: Smash Bros. Ultimate spoiler! Warning!

Sadly didn't get to play again tonight and didn't witness the New Donk stage at all but our boy has been revealed as a spirit.

Why he wasn't the face of the treasure hunt section is beyond me unless he and Toadette swap roles as host? Definite possibility.

Apparently the DLC has been leaked. Tread carefully brigade.

Umm you mind sharing the DLC that's supposedly "leaked" to me in a PM?

 

[YoshiandToad]

Umm you mind sharing the DLC that's supposedly "leaked" to me in a PM?

Afraid I can't, I just read it had happened in the Rate Their Chance thread.

 

[fogbadge]

i think it was just place holders found in the datamine i dont think they actually found anything legit

 

[Arcadenik]

Peach’s Toad is THE Toad. Daisy’s Toad is A Toad. We already knew that but now we have evidence.

 

[fogbadge]

Peach’s Toad is THE Toad. Daisy’s Toad is A Toad. We already knew that but now we have evidence.

View attachment 180263

well at least its some recognition

 

[YoshiandToad]

Peach’s Toad is THE Toad. Daisy’s Toad is A Toad. We already knew that but now we have evidence.

View attachment 180263

Guess Toad's back to being an individual in the eyes of Smash...although it'll be interesting to see how the Japanese translate it since the west has always insisted on Toad being an individual rather than a species which I believe the Japanese are more inclined to do?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Daisy totally got the cheapest Toad at the discount store

 

[YoshiandToad]

Daisy totally got the cheapest Toad at the discount store

At least she got the Blue one who's been in SM3DWorld or New Super Mario Bros. Wii!

...now the purple or green Toad? Those are the discount Toads that barely do anything...yellow probably would have fit her more though if she had to have a Toad.

Have we seen Toad used in the air yet? I can't remember if he just appeared floating in front of Peach and Daisy or was being held up by them when they were attacking through the air.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

At least she got the Blue one who's been in SM3DWorld or New Super Mario Bros. Wii!

...now the purple or green Toad? Those are the discount Toads that barely do anything...yellow probably would have fit her more though if she had to have a Toad.

Have we seen Toad used in the air yet? I can't remember if he just appeared floating in front of Peach and Daisy or was being held up by them when they were attacking through the air.

They learned the power of flight, simply appearing in the air in front of them

 

[fogbadge]

i will not allow the putting down of any toad of any standing









maybe zip.t

 

[Arcadenik]

The picture I posted above. Notice how it looks like spores are coming from Toad’s mushroom hat. In the past, the spores used to come from Toad’s hands. I wonder if this change was done late in development that the spores now look like it came from his mushroom hat,

 

[Albo]

I recently saw someone say they saw a tweet saying Captain Toad isn't in New Donk City Hall in the final game...I've been trying to steer clear of spoilers myself, but I wonder if this is true.

Don't get your hopes up, Brigade, but I just thought I'd put that out there.

 

[Ed-boy]

Hmm. pretty strange, if true.
Y'know, something similar happened with Mario's Jump Punch. Ever notice how in recent footage, Cappy never shows up like in the E3 trailer?

 

[fogbadge]

alright people a week tomorrow is the bug day now id like you all to remember to keep things in spoiler boxes like in regards to number of toad spirits and what the spirit battles are like

and any toad related music although PixelPasta do pm if theres anything from treasure tracker in there (or not)

 

[ChronoBound]

I recently saw someone say they saw a tweet saying Captain Toad isn't in New Donk City Hall in the final game...I've been trying to steer clear of spoilers myself, but I wonder if this is true.

Don't get your hopes up, Brigade, but I just thought I'd put that out there.

That is very strange if its true. Maybe Captain Toad just rarely makes a cameo in the stage? However, if he really was removed entirely, it might possibly be a point of hope for him to be DLC. Or it could be just another example of horrendous bad luck Toad has had to endure within the Smash Bros. series.

alright people a week tomorrow is the bug day now id like you all to remember to keep things in spoiler boxes like in regards to number of toad spirits and what the spirit battles are like

and any toad related music although PixelPasta do pm if theres anything from treasure tracker in there (or not)

I actually looked at the datamine for Ultimate and here is the Toad content in the game (I will spoiler spirits and any possible tracks):

Spoiler: Toad Spirits

Toad
Flying Squirrel Toad
Toadette
Toadsworth
Captain Toad

Spoiler: If there are any Toad-themed music tracks

Draggodon Battle
Toad Brigade Theme

As most of you know, the Toad Mii Costume returns.

 

[fogbadge]

reaction to music spoilers

Spoiler

YES!

 

[YoshiandToad]

I recently saw someone say they saw a tweet saying Captain Toad isn't in New Donk City Hall in the final game...I've been trying to steer clear of spoilers myself, but I wonder if this is true.

Don't get your hopes up, Brigade, but I just thought I'd put that out there.

It's certainly odd. I haven't seen him at all during my time looking at the New Donk Stage.

Maybe that's why the New Donk City post failed to mention him at all?

alright people a week tomorrow is the bug day now id like you all to remember to keep things in spoiler boxes like in regards to number of toad spirits and what the spirit battles are like

and any toad related music although PixelPasta do pm if theres anything from treasure tracker in there (or not)

Just for the record here is what we have for Toad so far in Ultimate:

Spoiler: Obviously big Toad related spoilers inside. Click at OWN risk

Toad is a returning Mii outfit(as seen in the November Direct) for Mii Brawler.

Toad is promoted to be more involved in Peach(and Daisy)'s movesets: he can perform several attacks in the form of a pummel(many punches to the gut), a down throw(flying headbutt similar to one of Mii Brawler's down specials) and a backward throw(hip attack; uses his butt to knock enemies away). That's all I saw in the brief period I got to play Peach(went against a bad bunch to test it out). I think the forward throw was him headbutting forward but it was so quick it didn't register for sure.

Toadette is used as a Spirit Master for the Treasure Hunting mini game within Spirit Mode. It's likely Captain Toad may share this role as well as we've seen multiple masters used for the Dojo with Doc Louis AND Kat and Ana as masters.

Toad, Captain Toad and Toadette also have online tokens alongside their spirits.

Captain Toad appeared in a screenshot as a stage element on New Donk City on the website but currently seems to be missing from the final build. Mysterious!

Toad has a variety of spirits under their name including; Toad, Flying Squirrel Toad, Toadette, Toadsworth, Captain Toad and one ChronoBound missed I believe: Toad in the Cheep Charger from Mario Kart Wii.

As ChronoBound pointed out Captain Toad appears to have two tracks in Ultimate which is nice.

I recently saw someone say they saw a tweet saying Captain Toad isn't in New Donk City Hall in the final game...I've been trying to steer clear of spoilers myself, but I wonder if this is true.

Don't get your hopes up, Brigade, but I just thought I'd put that out there.

Sorry for the double post, but I just put forward the question if anyone had seen the good Captain over in the general thread.

Spoiler: Not great news

According to vaanrose, he shows up on the THIRD rotation of New Donk City meaning you'll never actually see him on two minute matches or small stock matches...

...that's actually pretty lame. So he's basically an easter egg minor cameo that you'll never see for 90% of matches.

Someone really needs to get an official statement from Sakurai about his thoughts on Toad because this is getting ridiculous.

 

[Propeller Toad]

That's a nice selection of music choices from Treasure Tracker I admit!

Spoiler

Though...that New Donk City news honestly is pretty disappointing. A super hidden easter egg for sure. Was really hoping for a CTTT stage tbh...whelp.

Least we get Spirits right?