Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

[Steve.Stone]

So it seems jump cancelling is very important for Greninja, but why does it have to be so hard on the DS! D:

 

[SteadyDisciple]

So it seems jump cancelling is very important for Greninja, but why does it have to be so hard on the DS! D:

It's good to know how to do, but I wouldn't say that it's crucial. Greninja has a very fast walk, and you really shouldn't be dashing much unless it's to get a dash grab or aerial follow-up.

 

[Steve.Stone]

Really? I'm running pretty much all the time, but then again most of my combos rely on dash grabs, dash attacks, or running and jumping around to confuse my opponent until I can find an opening.

 

[Nicklecat]

Has anyone been able to find a good way to practice the uair into footstools? I know this seems like a stupid question, but I have not been able to find anything.

 

[Lawliet626]

I've never seen this topic spoken so im kinda curious about it
What uses do the Substitute doll/log actually have? I know that they are able to protect us from proyectiles, cancel out daddy's banana and it can the distance that Ness goes when he uses PK thunder on himself, but what other uses does it have?

 

[Onyxsbayne]

If I go up during Substitute, I like to Dair sometimes to try and hit my opponent. If I miss, I can hit the sub instead of landing and dealing with landing lag

 

[LazyFrogRobot MKII]

So, I've been having a bit of trouble being able to do things that'd essentially be Greninja's tools for advanced combos.

Can someone please tell me how to up air spike, and how to practice being able to do in on command? I also have trouble landing fast fall nairs sweetspot nairs to lead into footstools, and then trouble being able to footstool itself. I don't know if you're supposed to fast fall the first nairs at all or just shortjob and wait for the right moment to nair as you fall, because I haven't found any advice on it.

I've searched extensively, and I found a less detailed answer for the first question, but I've found very little advice for the rest. Someone please help a ninja out.

 

[Onyxsbayne]

I've found it easier to perform up air spikes using the c stick. When you are below your opponent in midair, push up on the c stick and down on your analog stick at around the same time, and you should fast fall while using your up air, which should hopefully drag your opponent down into what's considered the spike.

As for footstool combos, I wish I could help, but I'm still learning them as well. The timing on it is really hard to pull off and the Dair spike doesn't always land for me either.

 

[LazyFrogRobot MKII]

I've found it easier to perform up air spikes using the c stick. When you are below your opponent in midair, push up on the c stick and down on your analog stick at around the same time, and you should fast fall while using your up air, which should hopefully drag your opponent down into what's considered the spike.

As for footstool combos, I wish I could help, but I'm still learning them as well. The timing on it is really hard to pull off and the Dair spike doesn't always land for me either.

Cool. thanks for the little bit of help. What about sweetspot fast fall nairs?

 

[RANDOM_Stranger]

I can't say I'm a good Greninja user. But I think I'm a lot better with him then Sheik.

However, I have a major problem with his Hydro Pump. Without think much, it works simular to Pikachus quick attack. You press Up-B and then direct one of the 8 direction you want him to travel to 2 times.

But for some reason, Greninja has some sort of long lagg when I press up B, soo when I want him to travel left or right or right/left-up or right/left-down. He have a tendency to use shadowsneak instead. As you should expect, this caus a lot of problems. Especially when he need to recover.

Just wonder if anyone is having this problem to. Is it to quick fingers or is there another problem?

PS: I have no problem to use Pikachus quick attack soo this is a bit annoying

 

[Space thing]

When airborn, most characters input for Up B increases to cover almost 180 degrees upward on the stick. This DOESN'T appear to happen with Greninja for whatever reason. So basically, the input is the same for both grounded and aerial Hydro Pump, when it's normally supposed to be easier in the air. In general, press almost straight up, then do the direction and you'll be fine. It is annoying though.

 

[Funkermonster]

How do you play the matchup? At my last tournament and in some friendlies today the character gave me quite some pain, and my other character doesn't exactly have the best matchup against him (not horrible or anything imo, but its not even) so I don't really have any better options than to keep Greninja. In paticular, his shorthop bairs, dash grab combos, and his jab are what give me problems when trying to fight with him, and I also find it almost impossible to land back on the ground because his Uair, dash grab, and dash attack keep me from it. Falcon is a pretty common character where I come from and he has been the most recent threat to me in bracket, so this is the matchup I choose to focus on first.

I also would like to know some good advice for countering opponents' ledge options and edgeguarding those who like to recover low a lot. My ledge game is pretty weak and whenever I have my opponents there I've been feeling that I give them too much respect (out of fear of getting ledge aerial'd) and the only option I can consistently counter is a ledge jump with falling Uair spikes, my opponents often ledge roll behind me or jump off and come back with an aerial and I'm looking for Greninja's answers to these. When edgeguarding I find myself too reliant on hydro pump, shurikens, and occasional Bairs and most of my opponents just come from below the ledge and UpB to it and avoid whatever I try to get them with, and when combining these two weaknesses of mine together I think I have more trouble taking stocks than I should be.

 

[Ridel]

So I'm very new to Greninja and I'm thinking of picking up the character if only because I'm dying to learn a new character. So I'm wondering how you play the neutral game as Greninja? Right now I use a lot of shurikens and grabs but they seem to put me in a bad position most of the time.

 

[Blaziking17]

How do you play the matchup? At my last tournament and in some friendlies today the character gave me quite some pain, and my other character doesn't exactly have the best matchup against him (not horrible or anything imo, but its not even) so I don't really have any better options than to keep Greninja. In paticular, his shorthop bairs, dash grab combos, and his jab are what give me problems when trying to fight with him, and I also find it almost impossible to land back on the ground because his Uair, dash grab, and dash attack keep me from it. Falcon is a pretty common character where I come from and he has been the most recent threat to me in bracket, so this is the matchup I choose to focus on first.

I have plenty of experience with C. Falcon since I have a couple of friends in my area that main Falcon and are very good. I noticed that you picked up on the more common Falcon strats for their offense. You can slow that down somewhat with small Water Shurikens at a safe distance. The main thing I would say to work on is your spacing on stage. Only go for SHFFNairs when you see an opening, otherwise they'll catch you while they shield, then grab you. Make sure to watch what your opponent is doing and stay patient. Also, get used to their speed. It'll be nerve-wracking at first because Falcon covers so much ground, but Greninja also has speed and a higher jump than Falcon. If you find yourself being juggled, jump out of it, or air-dodge. (Try not to make a habit of either.) Focus on getting Falcon offstage so you can easily guard the ledge with Hydro Pump. Which leads into the next part of the question.

I also would like to know some good advice for countering opponents' ledge options and edgeguarding those who like to recover low a lot. My ledge game is pretty weak and whenever I have my opponents there I've been feeling that I give them too much respect (out of fear of getting ledge aerial'd) and the only option I can consistently counter is a ledge jump with falling Uair spikes, my opponents often ledge roll behind me or jump off and come back with an aerial and I'm looking for Greninja's answers to these. When edgeguarding I find myself too reliant on hydro pump, shurikens, and occasional Bairs and most of my opponents just come from below the ledge and UpB to it and avoid whatever I try to get them with, and when combining these two weaknesses of mine together I think I have more trouble taking stocks than I should be.

Greninja can have trouble killing sometimes. The main thing is if you feel like you're using the same options, mix it up a bit. Try SS just off the ledge, or Bair as you go straight down the ledge since they like to recover from below. As for when they recover from the ledge, you can Sub if they try to attack with an aerial after the jump-off. If they roll behind you, you can either DSmash or pivot FSmash or pivot grab, depending on which is more convenient for the situation.

 

[Steve.Stone]

How do you guys manage the jab-jab-foward Smash/grab? Every time I push the grab button or C stick or anything it just does the third hit of jab.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Wait longer before doing the grab/smash.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

What uses do a fast fall upair have?

 

[SteadyDisciple]

What uses do a fast fall upair have?

The primary use is for Uair spike, a trick that has you fall away from an opponent to avoid hitting then with the final hits, resulting in them dropping down after you. This, combined with Greninja's fast fall speed, means you can land before them and combo this into other moves for higher damage output or kills.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

What are some true combos at lower percents?
and kill setups at higher percent? since at high percents, i find myself using Uptilt into an upair, or i find myself throwing out random smash attacks.
Also, what moves lock opponents? I've heard all three hits of Bair can, but what else?

 

[Guimartgon]

What are some true combos at lower percents?
and kill setups at higher percent? since at high percents, i find myself using Uptilt into an upair, or i find myself throwing out random smash attacks.
Also, what moves lock opponents? I've heard all three hits of Bair can, but what else?

There is a whole section on all of Greninja's moves and how they combo. http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/
Greninja's top 3 combo potential moves are Nair since both sweetspot and sourspot combo easily at low percents and lead to footstool locks and Sourspot Nair true combos into Usmash at higher %s. Utilt is a fantastic anti air(the whole tongue is disjointed) that leads to Uairs or Bairs and even USmashes. Dtilt leads to grabs at low %, at higher % Dtilt is your kill-confirm move leading into Usmash and Fair.)

My favorite low % string is Nair to Dtilt to Grab to Uthrow to Uair and that sets them up for a great juggle

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Is Sweetspotted Nair to Uptilt to Up-air a good combo?
When should I use Water Shuriken?
I also have trouble with mis-inputting Shadow Sneak instead of Hydro Pump when i need a diagonal Hydro Pump, and tips on how to stop this?
Any hints on the and matchup?

 

[Blaziking17]

Is Sweetspotted Nair to Uptilt to Up-air a good combo?
When should I use Water Shuriken?

I'll get back to you on that combo string. Typically, Sweetspot Nair to UpTilt works between 6-24%.
In general, you should use WS to create space and condition the opponent to shielding or dodging. The smaller the WS, the more ground it will cover. Fully charged WS's are a bit risky, especially with opponents that can reflect them back, and it takes a bit of time to charge. It can be useful to guard the ledge and provide combo opportunities, but don't fully charge it too often.

I also have trouble with mis-inputting Shadow Sneak instead of Hydro Pump when i need a diagonal Hydro Pump, and tips on how to stop this?

It happens to the best of us sometimes. All I can say is practice up in training. I think it's important to remember to press up + B first, then immediately input where you want to go with Hydro Pump.

Any hints on the and matchup?

From my experience, this matchup isn't too difficult. It should be in Greninja's favor. I would beware of Pit/D. Pit's FSmash just because it's really good, and it's range is a bit deceptive (to me, at least.) Also, watch out if you throw a fully charged WS since they can either use Guardian Orbitars, or their Side B's to reflect it.

 

[Calvonta]

From my experience, this matchup isn't too difficult. It should be in Greninja's favor. I would beware of Pit/D. Pit's FSmash just because it's really good, and it's range is a bit deceptive (to me, at least.) Also, watch out if you throw a fully charged WS since they can either use Guardian Orbitars, or their Side B's to reflect it.

I agree somewhat

Is Sweetspotted Nair to Uptilt to Up-air a good combo?

Nair to Usmash Gives you more momentum that it actually should and its bread and butter(yes its really good). It does enough damage to catch up in % easily.

When should I use Water Shuriken?

After you fthrow your foe offstage, in neutral, using the little hovering state to mix-up landings. There's a bit of uses for it hon.

I also have trouble with mis-inputting Shadow Sneak instead of Hydro Pump when i need a diagonal Hydro Pump, and tips on how to stop this?

BNF

Any hints on the and matchup?

The thing about this matchup is you have to be aware that Pit's neutral is pretty good.

Its because he has a sword and he can outspace you kinda, avoid using laggy moves like fsmash and adapt to using less laggy moves like ftilt or nair(Becasue they love to roll r_r) . Dashgrab is always good. Rememeber that too.

Early % against Pit is basically avoid dashattack to usmash or dthrow to usmash.

Just be aware of dash grab and dashattack in general.

oh and shield grab.

And yeah the reflector is like Falcons side b. They throw it out to kill you occasionally.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Jesus i cannot play against for the life of me, any tips on the matchup?

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Jesus i cannot play against for the life of me, any tips on the matchup?

In general, water shuriken and dash grab are your friends. Shulk has big disjoints but terrible frame data. Just keep out of reach until he overcommits and then rush in with a punish. Also, be aware of which Monado Arte Shulk is using. Shield is easy to just run from and rack up damage, while speed you'll have to be much more care about spacing. Substitute is also a decent tool for once, due to Shulk's slow frame data again, and unless Shulk is in jump or speed he's super easy to gimp with Hydro Pump.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

The matchup? I can answer this easily. Shulk is one of the most popular characters at my local, in fact the current 1st place holder mains him. The key to the matchup when using is to properly space. Shulk can't affect anything outside of a certain range, and using well-timed projectiles and good timing on Shadow Sneak can disrput the playstyle. Also, make sure to use dash grab in the neutral instead of dash attacking to avoid getting brutally countered. Down air also works because the bounce avoids the swing, unless the Shulk player can react fast enough to use the forward-moving version. When Shulk goes on the offensive (normally identifiable by use of an offense Monado) then it's normally safe to time a Counter because of the extensive amount of lag on Shulk's moves. Finally, when Shulk is offstage and shows intent to recover via Back Slash or Air Slash, hit 'em with a Hydro Pump. When in free fall, Shulk moves really slowly from left to right, so he won't be able to recover.

Now then, any help with the matchup?

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Now then, any help with the matchup?

Not one I'm quite as comfortable with, but I can point out a couple little things that might help.

1: Cape does not stop you from using water shuriken. Yes, cape is a reflector, but like most reflectors it requires a read to use against us at most distances. I'd suggest only using minimum charge water shuriken until you condition mario to reflect them, then start waiting out his reflector and firing so they hit him during his ending lag. So long as you mix up your timing, you should be fine.
2: Mario doesn't have a good answer to our U-air, U-tilt, or U-smash if we get him into the air. Because of this, his only way to avoid juggles is to mix up his landings, and he can't really be aggressive while trying to land unless you throw out something unsafe in the first place.
3: While Mario isn't the easiest to gimp, his special fall has almost no horizontal momentum. As such, pushing him away from the stage with Hydro Pump can be tricky (as Super Jump Punch has intangibility early on), but if you do connect with it just before Mario uses SJP he will almost always fail to recover.
4: Last but not least, a simple tool I always forget about but is super helpful. If Mario gets you with a U-tilt, rather than letting him combo you to mid percents with U-tilt strings, you are able to fast fall and shield before another hit. Even though it's hard to punish U-tilt on shield as Greninja, simply getting out of the string is nice.

 

[TTYK]

Has anyone been able to find a good way to practice the uair into footstools? I know this seems like a stupid question, but I have not been able to find anything.

Up tilt

 

[BigHairyFart]

...shows intent to recover via Back Slash...

Just saying, but any Shulk with half a mind will never use Back Slash to recover. It's literally worse than just drifting, plus you can't grab the ledge out of it.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Just saying, but any Shulk with half a mind will never use Back Slash to recover. It's literally worse than just drifting, plus you can't grab the ledge out of it.

Oh, I've seen some things... (it's a high recovery into a dropping backslash to attack potential edgeguarders. dunno why it's so popular in my region, cuz it's not too useful)

 

[DisidisiD]

I'm new to playing greninja and I was curious as to what tech I should learn for this character. What sort of things I should practice, whether perfect pivots are useful or not, what guides are good, etc. I was also curious if there is a greninja Skype/discord group that I could join. If you guys could help me get started, that would be great. Thanks.

Oh and, if this is the wrong place to post this kind of thing, I'm sorry. This is my first time on the greninja boards so I wasn't sure where to put this.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Pretty sure you've got the right place. Well I'm not a tech-focused player, so you're not getting any advice on that from this passing ninja. However, I can give you advice on the five aerials. Every one is important to play an effective Greninja.

Neutral air- Sudden, but has a bit of startup and a whole lot of endlag. Autocancels at the ground. Good for resetting neutral.
Forward air- Pretty much an uncharged forward smash, but with a bunch of extra startup lag. An effective offstage finisher.
Back air- A kick that hits three times. Can extend combos or be used defensively to swing the neutral back in your favor.
Up air- The notorious spin kick that semi-spikes if used right. Also an amazing combo tool and finisher on low-ceiling stages.
Down air- My personal favorite, an air-to-ground kick that spikes at the start of the move. Extremely risky off stage, but can pull off very early meteors and at higher percents can be used onstage to combo into forward air for a quick finish.

 

[Enigma227]

Who are probably the top 5 Greninja players in no specific order?

 

[BigHairyFart]

Techi and Amsa are the only two that come to my mind, but Amsa doesn't play Smash 4 anymore I don't think.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Techei, Elu, and Illusion... not many else. The only Greninjas I saw at KTAR XIV were Techei, Elu, and myself, and I got a really low placement. Techei and Elu both got 48th.

 

[Steve.Stone]

I know you can watch Techei at the weekly Xanadu stream on VGBootcamp, i don't know where else to watch for other people. But Techei is really fun to watch cause he just moved so fast and...gracefully for lack of a better word, and he has gotten a lot better recently so he does some fun stuff.

Side note, how to two people both place 48th? Or was it doubles?

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

It's a double elimination pools bracket, and they both got out in pools losers finals.

 

[HoSmash4]

What are greninja's ledge coverage options?

 

[Steve.Stone]

Water shurikens, back air stage spike if your opponent isn't that great at teaching, hydro pump but that can be difficult depending on whos recovery you're dealing with and at what height they're recovering. Or if they're far away you can try to keep back airing them similar to jigglypuff or Kirby, I've done that a few times. OR you can down Smash them with that two frame ledge grab punish thing.

 

[DisidisiD]

I was looking at greninja combo videos and I was curious as to why, during footstool combos, people use Dair mainly to jab reset. The problem I've found with Dair is that it only resets for a smallish percent range (compared to other moves). The first and second hits of Bair on the other hand reset for a much longer percent range. It's a bit more difficult to hit with but is possible. Is this difference in difficulty the only reason?

EDIT: oh and also, with Bair, you are already on the ground after they are locked. With Dair, you go flying into the air for a bit, which lessens the amount of time you can "prepare" the next part of the combo, whether it be nair, a charged Fsmash, dtilt, or something else.