Tips against ganondorf (XD get it? "tips"? tipper?)

[Corax]

XD okay lame marth puns aside.

After playing Hella's ganondorf with my Marth I started to notice I've been having troubles against Ganon.
After playing my friend's friend's ganon, I started to believe that an L-cancelling savvy Ganondorf can really beat down marth.
So I tested this out a bit and realized its hard to get a good hit on Ganon just caues of his range on some of his attacks (fair *shudders) and that Ganondorf can be surprisingly fast at times with L-cancelling.
Oh and L-cancelled attacks hurt since I got shield stabbed alot. Could be becuase i was shielding too much, but what does everyone here think?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Just camp him out with fairs. He may have range similar to yours, but you've got disjointed hitboxes. You don't really need to make an approach in this matchup, but you could approach with a spaced fair or d-tilt if you'd like. There's nothing he can do about it anyway. Once you get one of your fairs on him you can start moving him off the stage for some easy edgeguarding.

 

[Jujumasta]

You can also pull out a spaced nair (or even a counter).

 

[DuKe™]

ganon is ultra gay against marth IMO, i like to tech chase him a lot gets some damage its also fairly easy to combo him with fair, oh and probably spacing, its insanely important, i like to just DD in the edg grab back throw f smash/d tilt, sometimes i can get an entire stock from 0, make a nice comeback, and if your having a problem with him shield stabbing you, uhhh light shield and move your shield to where he would normally get you

 

[Corax]

Spacing I've been using alot and its been a great help. Fairs rock XD.

Last time I tried camping him out, he either shield stabs me, grabs, or bairs me. Gets annoying after a while. Defensive wise, I think marth isn't the best against ganon.
Are there any good defensive strats specific to ganon anyway? Cause I've been caught in more than one situation where I'm forced on the defense.

(o.o also wondering how to turn a ganon fight back into my favor, like whether keeping him above me will help)

 

[Team Giza]

I'm a ganondorf player who loves fighting Marth but Marth can beast out crazy mindgames and combos on poor little Ganny. Fairs are nice for comboing me but don't just tempt and bait with them, all decent Ganondorf's get around this easily. I get killed but cross ups that with a d-tilt mix up. You can confused them so they don't know if you will d-tilt, grab or grab passed and pivot a tilt of smash into a killer fair combo. Look out for Ganondorf grab... dont spam aerials too much, but if you need to... nair is actually your best friend and not the fair because its harder for ganon to grab you on a shielded nair and if it contacts its usually getting both hits. Abuse d-tilt for edgeguarding and always spike, ganon is easy to spike.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Ganon can't grab you out of a spaced fair. There is seriously nothing he can do to stop you from fairing on his shield. Just make sure that if he jumps out of his shield that your ready to defend against his fair and then continue attacking him from out of his range.

 

[Team Giza]

^^Ganon can't grab you out of a spaced fair. There is seriously nothing he can do to stop you from fairing on his shield. Just make sure that if he jumps out of his shield that your ready to defend against his fair and then continue attacking him from out of his range.

When you a purposely baiting with it yes. I didn't make myself clear on the nair off fair thing. If you are trying to rush in after a Ganondorf techs, starting with a Nair is going to be more effective because just in case your timing is off and they shield it is easier for them to grab you. Fair baiting really isn't effective since light the ganon will have time to SHFFL something or tilt in many cases. And sometimes ganondorf can wavedash out of his shield for the grab. The problem with this match up is its pretty hard for either character to approach each other. The spaced fair bating is necessary but you should not spam it like its the key to winning, I beat my friends Marth all the time because he does this.

 

[chaddd]

Short hopped double forward air = godly. And the up tilt.

 

[Dark Sonic]

When you are purposely baiting with it yes. I didn't make myself clear on the nair off fair thing. If you are trying to rush in after a Ganondorf techs, starting with a Nair is going to be more effective because just in case your timing is off and they shield it is easier for them to grab you.

That timing isn't really much of an issue because it can be solved with a little practice. A fair is easier to combo out of and is generally better for tech chasing than a nair (unless you're just trying to push them off the stage)

Fair baiting really isn't effective since light the ganon will have time to SHFFL something or tilt in many cases. And sometimes ganondorf can wavedash out of his shield for the grab.

If you space a shffl'd fair there is nothing he can do to you because there's not enough time for him to do it. The shield stun from a tipped fair combined with what little lag it has when L-cancled is enough to keep you safe against the entire cast. I'm talking about attacking him with fairs while he's in his shield to make him get out of it. After that you can play defensive and just react to what attacks he's using by keeping him at a distance (possibly even a little out of your own range because of how far he reaches)

The problem with this match up is its pretty hard for either character to approach each other. The spaced fair bating is necessary but you should not spam it like its the key to winning, I beat my friends Marth all the time because he does this.

Neither can make a really penetrating aproach, but both can put a lot of pressure on the other's shield and force the other to make a move. However, Marth's approaches are harder to punish even if they're anticipated. It's not the key to winning, but it's a very large part of the matchup, IMO.

 

[Team Giza]

That timing isn't really much of an issue because it can be solved with a little practice. A fair is easier to combo out of and is generally better for tech chasing than a nair (unless you're just trying to push them off the stage)

I'm just commenting on this cause everything else you say is correct. The nair is probably much more effective over all in this situtation, but I guess its a matter of tastes. Usually if a Marth can get the Ganondorf off the edge its over. But fair can set up for tipper so... I guess its all the same.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm just commenting on this cause everything else you say is correct. The nair is probably much more effective over all in this situtation, but I guess its a matter of tastes. Usually if a Marth can get the Ganondorf off the edge its over. But fair can set up for tipper so... I guess its all the same.

I guess if your close to an edge the nair would be a better option, but I like to focus on getting some damage on him so it's easier to get him off later.

 

[Corax]

Against Ganondorf though, I'm not sure how the best way to really make an approach on him either. I mean, if he advances with shffled fairs then I'm not sure how to follow up. The ganon I face normally keeps me pinned on the defensive.

Baiting with fairs helps alot when he's on the defensive imo, I tried it on my friend and I was able to fair wave land (he followed with a wavedash) and I got a tipper in. I was happy :D.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Beat out his fair with one of your aerials or simply wait for it to finish and counter attack.

 

[Lesheik]

I need help against Ganon's too: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109451
^Recent Topic

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Short hopped double forward air = godly. And the up tilt.

LOL you love my Up tilts.

I always try and approach with a n-air, or go for a grab-> Up throw.
If you get a n-air, you can keep n-airing ganon, or start f-airs for a tipper or d-air finish.
If you get a grab-> up throw, expect ganon to jump, cause you'll **** him with up tilts if he doesn't. So, expect the jump, follow with f-airs/u-airs, leading to the ledge for a f-smash or d-air.

Don't tech predictably. You'll get destroyed, cause ganon capitalizes on tech chases.
Expect ganon to hop off the ledge with a backwards u-air(Thomas Tippman style), so save your jump and use it to f-air as you jump and protect your recovery.
Sweetspot! If you can't sweetspot, learn to ledge tech, because you'll need to if you come even slightly over the stage.

To edgeguard ganon, stay on the ledge. Make him up+b onto the stage, then punish him as you would a captain falcon or sheik. (N-air, f-smash, up tilt, grab if you have to)

 

[Dreadlord Santa]

I have a really weird, uncharacteristic way of playing Ganon. My brother plays him (albeit, fairly badly...) and the way that I counter him is, more or less, not do anything. I empty shorthop, dash into shield, and just dashdance around outside his range most of the time. Generally, this ends up with me dashing in and shielding a fair, then doing a retreating nair out of the shield. I dunno, it's really hard for me to explain how I fight him, and I don't have any vids against his Ganon, so I can't review them. I really depend on my instincts more than anything else when playing Smash, but I have good instincts, so...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

When playing Ganon alot of emphasis should be put on spacing your attacks properly.

Shield Grabs aren't that easy because of the amount of shield stun on his moves,but jumping out with Fairs our of shields work rather well.

Double Fairs work as an offensive technique.

There are other things,but this is my contribution,and I really don't feel like saying anything else right now.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I have a really weird, uncharacteristic way of playing Ganon. My brother plays him (albeit, fairly badly...) and the way that I counter him is, more or less, not do anything. I empty shorthop, dash into shield, and just dashdance around outside his range most of the time. Generally, this ends up with me dashing in and shielding a fair, then doing a retreating nair out of the shield. I dunno, it's really hard for me to explain how I fight him, and I don't have any vids against his Ganon, so I can't review them. I really depend on my instincts more than anything else when playing Smash, but I have good instincts, so...

Generally that's what you do anyway. You could throw out a fair or nair instead of that empty short hop, but other than that you're fine.

 

[Corax]

strangely enough after much expirimantation I've found it useful to use a back throw >.>
I mean, I know its Marth's most useless throw but its fun on Final D. because it allows you to sit and observe what he'll do. Plus it gives you time to fox trot in the opposite direction for a better chance to space your attacks depending what he does.

I'll try dread lord santa's tactic soon. False short hopping is really useful though :D. What happens if they randomly do a dark kick or a forward B? cause it always nails me out of my fair and nair.

 

[Dreadlord Santa]

My brother NEVER uses Ganondorf's B moves, so I don't have too much experience against them. If you play defensively like I do, though, just stay light on your toes, and if they try to catch you off-guard with one of those, just air-dodge or side-dodge, whichever is applicable for your situation, and then punish them in the immense amount of lag both moves have when whiffed. I'd imagine that would work... especially for the side B, since he doesn't go very far and falls over if he doesn't hit something. You pretty much **** Ganon for free every time he whiffs a side B ^_^

 

[Dark Sonic]

Your fair and nair also go through those moves anyway. You just have to make sure you space it right.

 

[TedBoosley]

Ganon is REALLY easy to techase and edgeguard. You can literally stand on the edge of the map f-smashing for most of a match against Ganon. I don't really see how a self-respecting Marth can lose to a Ganon.

 

[FrostByte]

Maybe because Marth dies between 70-90%? While it takes a *very* long time to kill ganon, who for most part will always get back to the stage if he doesn't reach the blastline. Dtilt is much better for edgeguarding ganon anyway.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ganon is REALLY easy to techase and edgeguard. You can literally stand on the edge of the map f-smashing for most of a match against Ganon. I don't really see how a self-respecting Marth can lose to a Ganon.

He could also just tech the smash and then air dodge onto the stage.

SHFFLd Dair is a pretty fun tactic for edgeguarding Gannon too. D-tilt gets the job done though and is generally one of the best methods for edgeguarding.

 

[Dreadlord Santa]

Why would you want to go through Ganon's b moves with an aerial when you can just dodge it and go in with more control for your aerial/an Fsmash? It just seems better to dodge uber-laggy moves like that than try to hit him out of it, especially given the punishment you get dealt for messing it up... I know, I played a down-B happy Ganon at a tourney a long time ago, and kept trying to fair him out of it, but since I didn't have much practice, I got hit a few times, and I could never make up the difference once I had taken so many Warlock kicks... of course, I was pretty much garbage back then, so it would be different now, but getting hit by that move still smarts.

 

[Stryk9]

i personally like the ftilt against ganon, its got good range and if tipped very decent knockback, its fmsash range but not as laggy so its good against the fair spam that most ganons are really good at. also marth can completely juggle ganon with fairs for a long time and overall has a very good combo game on him, just space extremely well cuz you can die to bairs at like 60 and be edgaurded very easily by a good ganon. ken combos galore so go for them. DO NOT get daired by ganon because you are probably dead. d tilt alot and go for utilt juggles if you can. Be afraid of ganons uair because it has ridiculous priority and your spacing must be perfect to work your disjointed hitbox through it on most of your arials.

 

[Dreadlord Santa]

I wish some better Marth players would come in and comment on this... this matchup is proving to be a hurdle even for Mew2King, judging from his performance in the FC-D regional crew battles.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why would you want to go through Ganon's b moves with an aerial when you can just dodge it and go in with more control for your aerial/an Fsmash? It just seems better to dodge uber-laggy moves like that than try to hit him out of it, especially given the punishment you get dealt for messing it up... I know, I played a down-B happy Ganon at a tourney a long time ago, and kept trying to fair him out of it, but since I didn't have much practice, I got hit a few times, and I could never make up the difference once I had taken so many Warlock kicks... of course, I was pretty much garbage back then, so it would be different now, but getting hit by that move still smarts.

Becuase it's just as easy to hit him out of it as it is to dodge and you'll get the same kind of control you would get if you had waited. It also makes the Ganon more intimidated by your range because he suddenly realizes that his "high priority" moves are not as high priority as yours (which for Ganon that's a serious problem.)

 

[Dreadlord Santa]

I usually don't find it to be worth the risk. I've always found it easier to time dodges and such than an aerial, but maybe that's just me. Also, in the crew battle I mentioned, Mew2King never actually hit Linguini out of his down+b. He either wavedashed backwards to dodge, or got hit. A good example would be at 12:39, in the second part of the battle, (sorry to keep referencing this, there aren't many good Marth vs. Ganondorf matches on Youtube...) Linguini throws out a ground warlock kick while M2K was just standing there, and he didn't try to dtilt it, or ftilt, or fsmash, or anything. He just wavedashed backwards into shield, and grabbed him (which is a good idea, since there's very little risk involved.) He never tries to move towards linguini with an attack at all when he uses down+B. He aerials him out of the side+B a couple times, but that moves kinda stupid anyway, and I like dodging it anyway, because it's really humiliating to fall flat on your face and get combo'd. I know, I play Captain Falcon a lot.

Basically, it's a matter of preference, and how much you're willing to risk. All the methods have now been presented, and they're all opinions. To me, it's more potentially harmful to a Ganondorf's psyche to fall on his face and get hit than to just get hit. If you can fair Ganondorf out of his down+b with a reasonable amount of accuracy and consitency, by all means, do it. Good luck with that ^_^

 

[Gannondorf the fifth]

Ganon is REALLY easy to techase and edgeguard. You can literally stand on the edge of the map f-smashing for most of a match against Ganon. I don't really see how a self-respecting Marth can lose to a Ganon.

Honestly, my top three are gannon, samus and marth. If you think that strategy works against a GOOD gannon, such as my own, i promise i'll own you everytime everyday. As far as i'm concerned, a great gannon will never lose to a good or lower marth. Why? Because, all these little "taunts" that the marth lovers on here are posting are pretty shady and pathetic. A super aggressive marth will be destroyed by gannon, and for those of you that said "i stick to the defensive" well, that shows you probably either play: 1. Really good gannondorf's or 2. Suck with marth offensively. If i see a marth trying to use fair's against me, that little thing known as "shield grab" works divine judgement from my meteor smash or up smash onto those sad marth faces. If i see a marth on the defensive, it's not hard to beat them. While good marths will try to lure you into a false sense of security, a great gannon will just not fall for this. Marth is a great character, but this isn't a shut and close battle. Ultimately, whoever has the more smash exp. is probably gonna be the winner, cause this really is a battle of mindgames.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Do you even think before you post?!

You can't shield grab Marth out of properly spaced Fair. That applies to every grab (excluding the chains) in the game. You can't do anything about it actually.

Ganon is one of the easiest characters for Marth to edgeguard becuase:
1. It's hard for Ganon to sweetspot so he'll often get down tilted to death of F-smashed for repeated edgeguarding
2. Ganon is easy to edgehog due to the nature of his recovery
3. Ganon's recovery is slow and predictable.

Marth doesn't have to play super aggressive in this match, so why should he? We're not trying to lure you into any kind of security, we're luring you into attacking, 'cause we can out camp you. Marth has the advantage in this match, end of story.

 

[ArcNatural]

Something that really screws alot of Ganons I play is the upthrow as low to mid percents. Ganon can jump out before you uptilt, but you can easily just follow their DI and shffl upair, uptilt, any aerial combo them. The only thing they can really do is to not waste their double jump and take the first uptilt (which leads to comboing anyway) or to double jump and airdodge, which as long as you shffl the upair correctly leads to another grab. When they don't have any platforms to DI to and tech off of, this really kills them on the stage imo.

 

[Frozenserpent]

Matchup depends heavily on spacing. There's no urgent need to approach as marth against ganon, but, you still don't want to be in a position where ganon is applying pressure on your shield with you backed into a corner.
Remember, ganon is easy to combo, and your attacks will break his, because ganon's attacks are laggy.
Marth's fsmash will hit ganon regardless of how well he sweetspots, if you time it. HOWEVER, any ganon player can ledge tech, so you can't rely on fsmash for everyone. Dair will hit a ganon, and no one techs it. You can also run off and fair. This won't necessarily kill ganon, but, it does take away some distance. hit it so it doesn't really knock him much higher.
You can grab a lot, and tech chase with a grab... multiple times. it doesn't really do that much damage, but it sets up for edgeguards, hits, etc. and it will frustrate the ganon. Ganon does have a crappy spot dodge, and he can't counterattack you after spot dodging a grab.

Don't get grabbed in return, because ganon can always follow up with an aerial, depending on how you DI.
Mix up your recovery. You pretty much die if ganon hits you while you're recovering. Likewise, don't waste your 2nd jump and then get hit.

That's advice i'd give to any marth player vs ganon.

 

[TedBoosley]

Honestly, my top three are gannon, samus and marth. If you think that strategy works against a GOOD gannon, such as my own, i promise i'll own you everytime everyday. As far as i'm concerned, a great gannon will never lose to a good or lower marth. Why? Because, all these little "taunts" that the marth lovers on here are posting are pretty shady and pathetic. A super aggressive marth will be destroyed by gannon, and for those of you that said "i stick to the defensive" well, that shows you probably either play: 1. Really good gannondorf's or 2. Suck with marth offensively. If i see a marth trying to use fair's against me, that little thing known as "shield grab" works divine judgement from my meteor smash or up smash onto those sad marth faces. If i see a marth on the defensive, it's not hard to beat them. While good marths will try to lure you into a false sense of security, a great gannon will just not fall for this. Marth is a great character, but this isn't a shut and close battle. Ultimately, whoever has the more smash exp. is probably gonna be the winner, cause this really is a battle of mindgames.

Why do I get the distinct feeling that you're completely terrible?

How do you recover against a Marth as Ganon? If you don't say ledgetech, you fail. Even if you do, you probably fail.

Seriously, even if Ganon techs the ledge, he has to take one of four paths after teching:

1. Tech low and attempt to grab the ledge from beneath on an up-B again. Result: get f-smashed.

2. Jump-tech off the ledge and go for an up-B high onto the stage. Result: get faired back off the stage and either: A.) get spiked on a ken combo or B.) get f-smashed again as you attempt another approach.

3. Knee-jerk up-B in an attempt to grab Marth with it. Result: Marth is properly spaced and doesn't get grabbed, and you get f-smashed again because of your laggy *** up-B.

4. Tech and then air dodge onto stage. Result: Marth nairs his air dodge.

Note: If you EVER miss a tech, you're dead.


Edit: Oh, and Renth is way the **** better than you. The End.

 

[Gannondorf the fifth]

Why do I get the distinct feeling that you're completely terrible?

How do you recover against a Marth as Ganon? If you don't say ledgetech, you fail. Even if you do, you probably fail.

Seriously, even if Ganon techs the ledge, he has to take one of four paths after teching:

1. Tech low and attempt to grab the ledge from beneath on an up-B again. Result: get f-smashed.

2. Jump-tech off the ledge and go for an up-B high onto the stage. Result: get faired back off the stage and either: A.) get spiked on a ken combo or B.) get f-smashed again as you attempt another approach.

3. Knee-jerk up-B in an attempt to grab Marth with it. Result: Marth is properly spaced and doesn't get grabbed, and you get f-smashed again because of your laggy *** up-B.

4. Tech and then air dodge onto stage. Result: Marth nairs his air dodge.

Note: If you EVER miss a tech, you're dead.


Edit: Oh, and Renth is way the **** better than you. The End.

Hmm, this conversation got interesting fast. First, i note, duely, how you ONLY addressed the edge guarding aspect of the game. That means you're already assuming that you'll get ganon off the stage immediately everytime he's present. I'm not questioning marth's abilities to edge guard, heavens no. Likewise, I could easily punish marth with gannon with no problems what-so-ever. I'm more focused on the actual play of the game.

By the way, i never tried to compare mself to renth, so that comment is negated.

 

[Gannondorf the fifth]

^^Do you even think before you post?!

You can't shield grab Marth out of properly spaced Fair. That applies to every grab (excluding the chains) in the game. You can't do anything about it actually.

Ganon is one of the easiest characters for Marth to edgeguard becuase:
1. It's hard for Ganon to sweetspot so he'll often get down tilted to death of F-smashed for repeated edgeguarding
2. Ganon is easy to edgehog due to the nature of his recovery
3. Ganon's recovery is slow and predictable.

Marth doesn't have to play super aggressive in this match, so why should he? We're not trying to lure you into any kind of security, we're luring you into attacking, 'cause we can out camp you. Marth has the advantage in this match, end of story.

Nice insult there, but I'll be more adult about it, ignore it, and address your reply. So, according to you, marth is literally unstoppable AND invincible when doing a fair? Not only that, you're neither luring nor attacking, so, in essence, you're doing what would be a nair but instead doing a fair in one spot over and over. I don't quite see the "unstoppable aspect of your game? Perhaps you're aware of this, but not taking it into account, marth, while being a powerful and quick character, does indeed still have his flaws; Such as disjointed hit box. As mentioned by me in a post before this post, both characters could easily punish the other in terms of edgeguarding. This conversation doesn't need to bring in an aspact of the game that pretty much any real smash player is aware of, even if they don't use gannon or marth. Edgeguarding isn't the issue. The issue if you think that marth>ganondorf everytime. Anyone that plays ganondorf like me, and anyone else that has seen the best ganon's out there know this isn't NOT how the story plays out and your futile tactics would never actually work in a real match against real pros. If the story ends, it ends there.

 

[ArcNatural]

You don't have to stand still to properly space a fair. Watch the Neo vs. Rockcrock vids and tell me who has an easier time with openings and edgegaurding. I don't know what your trying to say about how those tactics will never work. EVERYONE gets thrown off the stage, EVERYONE gets edgegaurded to some degree. Marth has a greater chance of survival off the stage vs Ganon, than Ganon does against Marth, that is just a fact. In the normal level of smash I believe that Ganon vs Marth is a fairly even matchup with a slight favor to Marth. But at the pro level it's easily around 70/30 in Marth's favor.

 

[TedBoosley]

Hmm, this conversation got interesting fast. First, i note, duely, how you ONLY addressed the edge guarding aspect of the game. That means you're already assuming that you'll get ganon off the stage immediately everytime he's present. I'm not questioning marth's abilities to edge guard, heavens no. Likewise, I could easily punish marth with gannon with no problems what-so-ever. I'm more focused on the actual play of the game.

By the way, i never tried to compare mself to renth, so that comment is negated.

It's REALLY easy to get Ganon off the stage, I'll record a match against my brother or I'll record a few friendlies or a MM with Renth the next time I'm at a tourney with him, just to show you what I'm talking about.

Basically, if a Marth is really good at spacing, this match is waaaayyy in his favor. One fair usually turns into an extended combo, Marth has f-throw the f-smash if Ganon misses DI (which often gets him off the stage, which means a stock if you don't suck ***), and Ganon is seriously the easiest character in the game to Ken combo (that isn't low tier and thus crap anyways).

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You people need to stop agruing over something so simple.

Ganon isn't easy to get offstage if he has half a brain, he knows that he is going to lose that stock or take a massive amount of damage if he gets off.

F-throw to f-smash? anyone who knows di isn't going to be hit by that. You are partly right about one fair leading to an extended combo but it rarely ever leads to death if the ganon knows how to di and break combos, which any decent ganon should because it happens alot.

Sonicwave, many things you said aren't true, I was surprised because you are normally quite knowledgable. And Ted, you are saying things that aren't the case much at all due to how people change during battles. No one is perfect all the time.

"3. Knee-jerk up-B in an attempt to grab Marth with it. Result: Marth is properly spaced and doesn't get grabbed, and you get f-smashed again because of your laggy *** up-B.

4. Tech and then air dodge onto stage. Result: Marth nairs his air dodge."

both of those aren't anything to be agruing about. Nine out of ten times the marth is going to be grabbed due to the nature of ganon's up-b and the fact the marth isn't going to space himself perfectly all the time. And as far as the tech and airdodge, Same thing, most marths are going to f-smash again due to them being worked up and intense on their edgeguarding, few keep their calm and react accordingly.

And you also said ganon is slow and predictable, that tells me you haven't played a good ganon before by a long shot.

Ganon vs marth is an even match, the marth has to be on his toes and properly space each attack or he dies in three hits and is just as easy to tech-chase as marth can tech-chase ganon as any ganon worth his salt can tech-chase well.

Edgeguarding shouldn't even be this much of an agruement as marth can be edgeguarded effortlessly due to him usually being knocked so far he has to use his second jump early and ganon having his uair edgeguard.