Time for a new ruleset?

[omgwtfToph]

if yoshis story goes to counterpick it will be a sad, sad day for melee

sir smokesalot is my favorite thing about melee

 

[Kheffin]

Out of curiosity, what stage(s) did Fox players like back in the old counterpick list? Whenever I played against Fox (as a Marth main), I could never decide which stage to ban (do I want to get gayed by Corneria, Green Greens, Rainbow Cruise, or Poke Floats?) since half of them led to Fox dittos anyways.

This post was just another way of saying I'm glad that I don't really need Fox as a secondary anymore.

 

[Kira-]

FD is kind of not neutral because it makes chaingrabbing a way bigger deal

peach ***** falco there, m2k ***** spacies there, it changes the matchup a lot (zhu convinced me of this)

other than that it's all good

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Marth's ledge game is better and he holds his own on that stage

I meant Sheik on the ledge with the opponent on the stage, as opposed to on the stage with the opponent on the ledge

nitpicking, but her recovery is ridiculously punishable without one, too

I wouldn't say ridiculously. I mean you can still punish it but you won't generally get to punish with the move you want to punish with, plus it makes the execution a lot easier.

 

[Lovage]

omg now fox has no good counterpick stages because everyone is gonna autoban pokemon stadium

keep corneria and mute city on!!!!!!!!!!!

and wtf why are people saying battlefield has weird edges they only *** you over if you don't know how they work

also why is this ruleset so godlike for sheik omg

 

[Nasty_Nate]

new ruleset appears to be making the game more fair

also more boring

Am I the only one that isnt excited about losing stages?

 

[Kira-]

so the best character in the game doesn't get broken counterpicks

all the other characters benefit except fox

don't forget fox had the most broken counterpicks until now, rainbow cruise, green greens, corneria, pokefloats, etc


also just because sheik does well on neutrals doesn't make it broken for her. Marth and Samus for example share the same benefits of not having to "pick your poison". It's not like those characters are going to be better on neutrals than they were before lol

 

[MacD]

lovage man up, you don't see me crying about how everyone is going to auto ban brinstar and i'm stuck with sucky stages

and ps, i've always auto banned stadium on a fox recently, unless i really didn't want to play on corneria

 

[Atlus8]

omg now fox has no good counterpick stages because everyone is gonna autoban pokemon stadium

keep corneria and mute city on!!!!!!!!!!!

Fox still has so much s#!+ to work with dawg! I've always disliked Corneria and Mute City for tournies!

Edit - Why is everyone bringing up Fox and PK Stadium? I think people should be more concerned with Fox on Yoshi Story! Fox is pretty much d@mn good at every stage in the game but the low ceiling on YS is just silly!

 

[pockyD]

fox ***** on every stage wtf

except MAYBE brinstar

 

[Adam M!]

I meant Sheik on the ledge with the opponent on the stage, as opposed to on the stage with the opponent on the ledge

Yeah, I know -- Marth's is still way better. Trust me on this. If you do the Hugo -- keep hopping on and off the ledge, just barely peeking you head over the ledge, until eventually landing on the corner of the stage -- it's nearly unstoppable because you can immediately dtilt or jab afterwards and no one in their right mind is going to be closer than dtilt distance to a Marth hanging on the ledge.

omg now fox has no good counterpick stages because everyone is gonna autoban pokemon stadium

keep corneria and mute city on!!!!!!!!!!!

and wtf why are people saying battlefield has weird edges they only *** you over if you don't know how they work

also why is this ruleset so godlike for sheik omg

rainbow cruise noob

LOL @ this ruleset godly for sheik. ban kongo 64 and it's done.

 

[Kira-]

i wish sheik could do the hugo. my ledge game sucks in general

kongo 64 is like her only good stage

and the rest of the stages are NEUTRAL for a reason. I don't want to hear **** about how she's broken on FoD or dreamland or something like that, it's all personal preference (M2K picks yoshi's with sheik sometimes)



edit - modified DSR is when you can't pick the stage you won on in say, round 3, but you CAN pick what you won on in round 1 right?

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Atlus, Fox has a lot more room to run around on PS than on Yoshi's Story; you don't have to worry as much about him running away and lasering. Plus small stage width = more edgeguarding opportunities. The ceiling isn't that much lower on Yoshi's than Stadium.

P, I disagree with Marth's being better; maybe in a perfect world Marth's is better but I think there's more room for error for him. Sheik's up B stall forces people a certain distance from the edge, and her ledgehop stuff in general seems to me to be faster and less punishable than anything Marth has. You can trick Marth into doing something that can be cc'd and punished more easily.

Kira, that's regular DSR, I thought modified was just not being able to CP any stage you won on.

 

[pockyD]

i believe regular DSR is that you can't choose the stage you last played on and DSR modified is that you can't choose the stage you last won on

i'm far from sure on this though

edit: from the horse's mouth

 

[SuperRad]

scamp's posts are the only ones i read in my head in the person appropriate voice

its weird

 

[Adam M!]

P, I disagree with Marth's being better; maybe in a perfect world Marth's is better but I think there's more room for error for him. Sheik's up B stall forces people a certain distance from the edge, and her ledgehop stuff in general seems to me to be faster and less punishable than anything Marth has. You can trick Marth into doing something that can be cc'd and punished more easily.

You're talking to a guy who went from maining Sheik to maining Marth, so I know their ledge games inside and out. Sheik's up-b stall forces the opponent a forward air's length away, which isn't nearly as far as Marth's fair or nair. You can trick bad Marths into something that can be CCed, but good Marths will only uair if you're at CC percentage, which when tipped cannot be CCed. Or Marth can just shield breaker or fair you and regrab the ledge if you insist on crouching near the edge, neither of which are CCable. And after 40 percent or so Marth can always autocancel nair from the ledge, which is nearly unstoppable. (Watch M2K vids to see him spam it.) And that's not even mentioning his wavedash to buffered roll, which is a lot better than Sheik's.

 

[Lovage]

nvm i changed my mind

i'm just gonna learn rainbow cruise really well and pick it
and learn fountain of dreams because i'm good at all the other neutrals besides that one

 

[Little England]

And that's not even mentioning his wavedash to bufered roll, which is a lot better than Sheik's.

I hate this. Drop regrab, drop regrab, sneak in a higher jump, waveland and buffer your roll. It's pretty **** fast too.

 

[The Greater Leon]

ive got a lot of things i want to say

first of all,

Edit - Ignoring SuperRad . . . now!

this was pretty weak miguel. you made a claim, and when asked to explain it, you didnt really deliver. so when he did the exact same thing to you, you though he was being a f@g and ignored him. the one making the claim has to provide the evidence (then its the other persons turn).

so the best character in the game doesn't get broken counterpicks

all the other characters benefit except fox

don't forget fox had the most broken counterpicks until now, rainbow cruise, green greens, corneria, pokefloats, etc


also just because sheik does well on neutrals doesn't make it broken for her. Marth and Samus for example share the same benefits of not having to "pick your poison". It's not like those characters are going to be better on neutrals than they were before lol

one fallacy i really dislike seeing is that x was broken up until now, so its fair that he gets the short end of the stick this time. the point of a rule change is to make it more balanced than it was before, and hopefully not need to change the rules again. so by giving fox **** cp's this time, youre implying that there will be one more rule change. so a session where he has great cps, bad cps, then everyone has fair ones. thats balanced, good bad regular, but we're trying to balance the game, not how good characters have been in the history of smash.

i also disagree with the idea of giving the 'best' character more/less though when picking stages. 'fox is good on poke stadium' is not a justifiable reason to ban it. the focus of this thread is to create the fairest, most balanced set of stages to play on. how characters will change in the tier list should be a secondary thought.

these are the best stages, no more gay ****.

now, after the new rules are set, fox is ****ing good. well thats not the stage list's fault, its the game's fault. taking how good/bad a character is into consideration while changing the legal stages only allows room for personal bias. (ex. 'yoshi's should stay neutral because i play bowser' is just as valid an argument as 'poke should be cp because fox is good on it') putting poke on cp for any other reason is an entirely different argument

lovage man up, you don't see me crying about how everyone is going to auto ban brinstar and i'm stuck with sucky stages

and ps, i've always auto banned stadium on a fox recently, unless i really didn't want to play on corneria

personal bias (i play x character; i happen to kind of dislike y stage) should be nonexistant for this conversation. the metagame is changing, so if peach always picked mute city, but the community can agree that mute isnt really a balanced stage, then its now up to the peach to forget that she used to get to play on a 'broken' stage, and deal with the new way the game is being played. its like in an MMO. if the game gets patched and you got nerfed, deal with it. thats how the game is now. its normal to dislike getting nerfed. but if an 'unfair' facet of a game is in your favor, its still your responsibilty to admit the 'unfairness.'
ps i like mute city.

Fox still has so much s#!+ to work with dawg! I've always disliked Corneria and Mute City for tournies!

Edit - Why is everyone bringing up Fox and PK Stadium? I think people should be more concerned with Fox on Yoshi Story! Fox is pretty much d@mn good at every stage in the game but the low ceiling on YS is just silly!

again, look at the stages objectively. 'fox is good' is not a valid reason. 'there are walls which allow for character specific infinites' is. as a community, we've already decided that stages with walls allow for infinites that lessen game play and are for that reason banned.

kongo 64 is like her only good stage

and the rest of the stages are NEUTRAL for a reason. I don't want to hear **** about how she's broken on FoD or dreamland or something like that, it's all personal preference (M2K picks yoshi's with sheik sometimes)



edit - modified DSR is when you can't pick the stage you won on in say, round 3, but you CAN pick what you won on in round 1 right?

dsr is you can only pick and win on a particular stage once.
modified dsr is you cant pick the stage you last won on. so that means in a best of 5, game 5, you can pick the very first stage you won on.

Atlus, Fox has a lot more room to run around on PS than on Yoshi's Story; you don't have to worry as much about him running away and lasering. Plus small stage width = more edgeguarding opportunities. The ceiling isn't that much lower on Yoshi's than Stadium.

dont think about how characters play out. first find if there is anything 'game breaking' (usually this includes walls, walkoffs...) on a stage. then which stages are balanced by themselves. youre thinking about how fox will play out (less room to laser, hit off the edge more) but you should be focusing on if the stage is acceptable for the metagame to play out on.

~
~
~
i didnt quote, but i am seeing a LOT of stage johns. i know i made a post a while ago about this exact same thing. as a player, its your responsibility to know the stages. sitting at home and playing each stage for 20 minutes to learn each and every nuance isnt the coolest idea, but if a stage fuks you its either a. broken, or b. your fault.

think back to that amazing match between zhu and ss on mute city at mango juice. jeff knew that stage, and did a lot of crazy ****. like airdodging to wait for the stage to stop moving, and not getting popped up. thats because he knew that stage. if he missed the timing for that airdodge, and got hit up by that stage, its his fault and not the stages.

yoshis has randall. randall isnt really random. knowing that he comes out on 15, in on 30, out on 45, in on 60... is dumb. but if you do a **** combo, into a dair, and they barely land on randall, its not the stages fault. you should either know where the cloud is, or be prepared for them to get "lucky." 'yoshis would be better without randal' is a useless argument. unless you want to make melee+. 'my combo would have worked if not for randal' is stage johns.

battlefield has janky ledges. deal with it.
you got hit into randals "house" on the side of yoshis and got 'randomly' stage spiked. deal with it.

i think FoD is fine. the platforms move up and down. i dont know if this is truly random or not. but in my opinion, its your responsibility to be prepared for the platform to start moving in the middle of whatever youre doing. if the rising/falling is in a set pattern, then its stage johns. if it is random, i am open for discussion. if the latter, you could 'randomly' get a combo taken away from you. though i still view that as stage johns.

personal likes and dislikes should be forgotten. we are trying to make a fair stage list, so all other thoughts except for, in a vacuum, how balanced are these particular stages? that is how to make a fair list. 'fox will be good on too many stages' is not a good argument, UNLESS, we as a community decide that fox is too good compared to the rest of the competitive cast. you are playing melee. in our metagame, fox is good. is fox broken? if yes, then changes may be made to the rules to bring him back down to par. if fox is not broken, taking him into consideration is biased.

i really like what little england did

Neutral Stages

-Must be symmetrical
-Hazards are either subtle or nonexistent
-Stage invariably contains open walls (no walk off deaths i.e. Flatzone), floors, and ceilings

By these standards the following stages are neutral

Battlefield
FD
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Story


Counterpick Stages
-Stage invariably contains open walls (no walk off deaths i.e. Flatzone), floors, and ceilings
-May contain hazards, but does not distract from basic gameplay

By these standards the following stages are counter picks.

Kongo Jungle (someone please tell me why this stage has been banned)
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium
Kongo Jungle 64


Banned Stages

The reason I'm choosing to list banned stages before counterpicks is because I think the qualifications for banned stages are much easier to point out.

-Contains hazards that severely distract from gameplay
-Stage is entirely too big and allows for effortless camping
-Stage is prone to stalling
-Stage is prone to infinite combos
-May severely hinder any character's recovery. (i.e. Ness on Fourside)
-Stage moves or alters in a way that supports the above qualifications

By these standards the following stages are banned.
Icicle Mountain
Peach's Castle
Great Bay
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Hyrule Temple
Yoshi's Island,
Green Greens
Venom(I love this stage)
Brinstar(not sure)
Onett
Mute City
Mushroom Kingdom
Brinstar Depths
Fourside
Big Blue
Poke Floats
Mushroom Kingdom II
Yoshi's Island


GET OFFICIAL WITH THIS! DISCUSS WHAT IS A NEUTRAL STAGE, COUNTERPICK STAGE, AND BANNED STAGE. I'M SURE EVERYONE DOESN'T JUST THROW OUT THEIR OPINIONS WITHOUT SUPPORTING DETAILS(lol grade school) IN THE SBR. WHY SHOULD WE?

symmetrical should not be a prerequisite. if fd had 1 platform on the left, it would be ugly as ****, but not in any way imbalanced.

neutrals should be very plain and basic.
cp's should be mostly fair, and not gamebreaking.
banned should be all stages that decrease the value of play.

i think the reason for this list change is to get rid of the 'pick your poison' effect, and though it may sound contrary to what i have been preaching, i think this is an idea that has some merit. however, it should be the second step: first we should use a certain criteria to decide which stages are acceptable for play. after using our formula, if any outstanding unfairness becomes apparent, it would be fair to remove additional stages...

in our imaginary new list, x stages are neutral, and y, z, a, b, and c are our counterpicks. 'fox is good' is the game's fault. but if the 'pick your poison' problem still exists for fox and only fox, we should eliminate cp's until, on paper, without personal bias, each competitive character has a relatively fair choice in cp-ing. i feel that it might be inevitable that some mid or high tier characters will be 'bad' on all the legal stages. i think it would be a better idea to balance the game around the 'good-ness' of the majority, rather than the 'bad-ness' of the individuals.

if the game says x is good. you may not argue.
in our special rules, if we give x an advantage, you may argue. pick your poison is an unintended advantage.
intended advantages may include:
-x is broken to the point of ruining the game. we should change to rules to make him worse, the game more balanced, and a better competitive game on the whole.
-y is very terrible. we should change the rules to make him more viable. though this doesnt usually happen.

all in all,
remove personal bias
put the stages in a vacuum, the metagame will unfold by itself
no stage johns
i liked little englands criteria and we should discuss stages in this manner.

also we should clarifiy which dk stage were talking about cuz they all sound the same. the waterfall stage is dumb cuz of the rock. too tired to put it into criteria -___-

 

[joeplicate]

you must have worked a lot this week

 

[The Greater Leon]

hahahaha
i went to dunskies then kilos
ive been having a smashingly good time

 

[Adam M!]

i think the best list for neutrals is definitely as follows:

FD
battlefield
dreamland

fountain should become a CP because its dimensions aren't really the standards for what one would think of as a sensible competitive map. the platforms randomly (to my knowledge) go up and down. in fact i was playing today and i got a tech chase interrupted because the platform randomly raised up and trapped me on it during my fox trot. also the expansive ceiling and sides but small stage itself naturally favors certain characters over others. the platforms are also smaller than normal, both in height and in width, which is an advantage to characters with certain skill sets -- that's not really fair, is it? that sounds CP worthy.

pokemon should be off because, duh, the stage transformations are bad. i also disagree with those who say camping for 30 seconds is a minor inconvenience. no, it can seriously disrupt the flow of a match. or it can happen in the middle of one player having control, and then the other player being able to camp his way to safety and, when the stage goes back to neutral, a neutral control of the match. plus all the random gay things on it that the players are mostly helpless against -- raised platforms on the ground and the like.

rainbow cruise and brinstar should be banned because the structure of the stage naturally favors certain characters' advantages over others. on brinstar, for example, characters that can only kill by edgeguard are ruined. those who can control the air also have bigger advantages (peach, jiggs , falcon, ganon). rainbow cruise moves and therefore favors characters who dominate the air, plus the janky side/ceiling kills.

i think it's nice to have CPs favor characters slightly over others, and have the first match be as neutral as possible. that way skill more than anything decides these matches, as only true skill can really take advantages of the slight differences in stage anyway. and a lot of the reason people are whining about the stages is cuz they're used to it, and it's a natural human tendency to be resistant to change

 

[Fabian]

they should take FoD off neautrals or get rid of it in general like in teams
such a stupid stage lol
iono why ive just never been fond of playing on there

Mute city should stay on as a counterpick
and i like that brinstar is a counterpick
it helps even the field toward campy players that don't approach IMO when the stage forces you to move
unstead of being camped out by a fox on like Dreamland or even FD
stadium as a counterpick and not a neutral is interesting

sometimes plarnks rules come off alil wierd to me
like at pound 3 how people advanced pools and not others cuz "fox has counterpick stages that let them auto-win matches" fox is gay but ive grown to ban green greens or just switch characters when taken to corneria

i guess that wont be an issue at pound 4

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

dont think about how characters play out. first find if there is anything 'game breaking' (usually this includes walls, walkoffs...) on a stage. then which stages are balanced by themselves. youre thinking about how fox will play out (less room to laser, hit off the edge more) but you should be focusing on if the stage is acceptable for the metagame to play out on.

I wasn't arguing making it non-neutral on the basis of its balance, I was responding to Atlus's opinion that YS was a stronger Fox stage. I said in a previous post that the main thing is that the stage plays discernably differently from all the other "neutral" stages.

yoshis has randall. randall isnt really random. knowing that he comes out on 15, in on 30, out on 45, in on 60... is dumb. but if you do a **** combo, into a dair, and they barely land on randall, its not the stages fault. you should either know where the cloud is, or be prepared for them to get "lucky." 'yoshis would be better without randal' is a useless argument. unless you want to make melee+. 'my combo would have worked if not for randal' is stage johns.

battlefield has janky ledges. deal with it.
you got hit into randals "house" on the side of yoshis and got 'randomly' stage spiked. deal with it.

You -can- predict Randall true, but the time that you just happen to get spiked is essentially unpredictable, so even though Randall is non-random, it's not really predictable/controllable when you get put in a situation where Randall influences the match. Battlefield ledges on the other hand are completely on the player.

personal likes and dislikes should be forgotten. we are trying to make a fair stage list, so all other thoughts except for, in a vacuum, how balanced are these particular stages? that is how to make a fair list. 'fox will be good on too many stages' is not a good argument, UNLESS, we as a community decide that fox is too good compared to the rest of the competitive cast. you are playing melee. in our metagame, fox is good. is fox broken? if yes, then changes may be made to the rules to bring him back down to par. if fox is not broken, taking him into consideration is biased.

I agree that we should not make a stage list with rebalancing the game in mind.

 

[Little England]

You -can- predict Randall true, but the time that you just happen to get spiked is essentially unpredictable, so even though Randall is non-random, it's not really predictable/controllable when you get put in a situation where Randall influences the match. Battlefield ledges on the other hand are completely on the player.

This doesn't really make sense to me. If you know where and when Randall will appear, how is it still uncontrollable? If you know when and where Randall is coming doesn't that make controlling by adjusting just as easy as adjusting to Dreamland's wind?

 

[joeplicate]

fountain should become a CP because its dimensions aren't really the standards for what one would think of as a sensible competitive map.

that doesn't make a lot of sense
first you have to define "competitive map"
if that's a map where there are as few random things as possible, designed to test player skill instead of level knowledge, then you still have to think: why aren't the dimensions standard? yoshi's story is smaller on both blast zones. the only thing i can think of is that they're not symmetrical; the ceiling is slightly higher than the walls are wide. pokemon is the opposite, large side to side but a small ceiling, yet you said that it should be a CP because of the transformations.

also the expansive ceiling and sides but small stage itself naturally favors certain characters over others. the platforms are also smaller than normal, both in height and in width, which is an advantage to characters with certain skill sets -- that's not really fair, is it? that sounds CP worthy.

how do smaller platforms present advantages to certain characters?
specifically, all i can think of is marth being able to tech chase no matter where he is, but he can do this on every other level except dreamland to an extent. pokemon's platforms are small too, but apparently there's not too much of a problem with that.

you could say bf is a better neutral stage for marth because everything is easier to reach for him, but it's still a neutral because the advantage isn't that large--it's not gamebreaking, not even enough to be a CP stage. every stage favors one character over another in a matchup in some way.

in this case, do the platforms on fod present that huge of a difference? fast characters can work around them better, but characters with moves that control a lot of space (marth, peach, ganon) can control the platforms equally well. the only person who it really affects is falcon, and even then, it's juuuust enough to make a difference.

the platforms are very close together (i think that's what most people have a real issue with), but can you think of a character who dominates because of it? sheik probably deals with them the best, but it's nothing to write home about.

honestly, i think some people are just uncomfortable with the configuration, and it's personal preference instead of things that present large advantages/disadvantages to different characters.

the platforms randomly (to my knowledge) go up and down. in fact i was playing today and i got a tech chase interrupted because the platform randomly raised up and trapped me on it during my fox trot.

the platforms go up slowly enough so you can see when they're doing it, then adjust accordingly. personally i've never had the problem of getting gayed out of something i felt as "guaranteed" by the platform; i think that if that were the case, people would have recognized it by now and complained more.

pokemon should be off because, duh, the stage transformations are bad. i also disagree with those who say camping for 30 seconds is a minor inconvenience. no, it can seriously disrupt the flow of a match. or it can happen in the middle of one player having control, and then the other player being able to camp his way to safety and, when the stage goes back to neutral, a neutral control of the match. plus all the random gay things on it that the players are mostly helpless against -- raised platforms on the ground and the like.

rainbow cruise and brinstar should be banned because the structure of the stage naturally favors certain characters' advantages over others. on brinstar, for example, characters that can only kill by edgeguard are ruined. those who can control the air also have bigger advantages (peach, jiggs , falcon, ganon). rainbow cruise moves and therefore favors characters who dominate the air, plus the janky side/ceiling kills.

what about kongo? i think there's enough randomness/jankiness there to consider banning, based on that criteria. the barrel adds a lot of randomness, the stage is easily camp-able, and the platform configuration is better for some chars than others.

i think it's nice to have CPs favor characters slightly over others, and have the first match be as neutral as possible. that way skill more than anything decides these matches, as only true skill can really take advantages of the slight differences in stage anyway. and a lot of the reason people are whining about the stages is cuz they're used to it, and it's a natural human tendency to be resistant to change

nah dude, people are whining because they have different ideas on how big a role stages should play in the game.

plank's ruleset isn't necessarily the way of the future, and everyone who doesn't accept it is being pigheaded. some people like having a lot of stages because they think that adapting to the level (within reason) is an important part of the game, or that you should be able to beat your opponent on a wide variety of maps.

 

[Plairnkk]

doh wrong thread

 

[Atlus8]

symmetrical should not be a prerequisite. if fd had 1 platform on the left, it would be ugly as ****, but not in any way imbalanced.

I think he meant the symmetry for KO borders! Perfect example would be Yoshi's Island! Have you seen how far to the right that s#!+ goes?

Also, platforms play a MAJOR role in what makes a stage balance. Adding 1 platform on the left side on FD, like you said, would change that stage drastically! Imagine the platform being the same height as those in Battlefield! Marth players would thrive on that s#!+ and try to place their opponent on the platform and get that tipper! Fox players can upthrow/uair then land on the platform to get in another uair!

 

[Adam M!]

yet you said that it should be a CP primarily because of the transformations.

fixed ya post

how do smaller platforms present advantages to certain characters?

sheik can just stand under the platform and ftilt.

the only person who it really affects is falcon, and even then, it's juuuust enough to make a difference.

thanks for making my case for me.

but can you think of a character who dominates because of it?

lol so if a character "dominated" on it you would suddenly agree it should be a CP? that means your logic is poor

personally i've never had the problem of getting gayed out of something i felt as "guaranteed" by the platform

the fact that it can (and does, contrary to your experience) happen is proof enough

what about kongo? i think there's enough randomness/jankiness there to consider banning, based on that criteria. the barrel adds a lot of randomness, the stage is easily camp-able, and the platform configuration is better for some chars than others.

the barrel doesn't add a lot of randomness because you're super laggy whenever you shoot out of it. plus it's not always there and you have to use it within 5 seconds or w/e the timer is. campiness is not enough of a reason to ban something. the platforms dont' really come into play except for recovering, which the main reason it's so good for sheik -- she can aim at the top platform or the sweet spot and it's hard to prevent both. that said, these are minor things, making it just right for cp

some people like having a lot of stages because they think that adapting to the level (within reason) is an important part of the game, or that you should be able to beat your opponent on a wide variety of maps.

sure, let's cater to the idiots

 

[Plairnkk]

i think its hilarious that people are actually so biased that they can convince themselves in their head that FOD is less neutral than kongo jungle or stadium. hahaha

 

[Kira-]

@ Brendan
Fox still has Rainbow Cruise and Stadium and has no disadvantage on any other stage except possibly Brinstar. Characters like Samus and Marth have no good counterpick stages to play on; they make do with neutrals only. So Fox is not getting the short end of the stick by any means.


@ Adam
Iono i was gonna write stuff but i just disagree LOL

did you know dreamland has larger platforms that are spaced out differently? that naturally gives some characters an advantage over others. Also the wind randomly didnt let me back to the stage yesterday; if I was peach or puff or samus i woulda made it back easily- obviously a big random disadvantage.

also the stage proportions are nowhere near the optimal competitive boundaries- dreamland should be a counterpick

for the people who r dum or dont know me:

Spoiler

/sarcasm

also sheik does well on brinstar- her aerial game sucks lol

 

[joeplicate]

sure, let's cater to the idiots

nah, dude

spamming p-isms

 

[Fabian]

wait wtf
is this how were gonna do it now?
cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22GY6Y8x1_k

 

[Atlus8]

I hate stage stike!

 

[The Greater Leon]

I think he meant the symmetry for KO borders! Perfect example would be Yoshi's Island! Have you seen how far to the right that s#!+ goes?

Also, platforms play a MAJOR role in what makes a stage balance. Adding 1 platform on the left side on FD, like you said, would change that stage drastically! Imagine the platform being the same height as those in Battlefield! Marth players would thrive on that s#!+ and try to place their opponent on the platform and get that tipper! Fox players can upthrow/uair then land on the platform to get in another uair!

by symmetry he meant corneria is gay. blast zones is a good point of discussion though. yoshi 64 is dumb for a number of reasons.

all of your next paragraph is telling me how the metagame would unfold. marth and fox are the best characters in the game. what does that have to do with anything? i know what marth and fox are going to do with a platform.

is fd with 1 platform gamebreaking? no. will it promote camping, maybe a little. enough to warrant it to be cp? imo no. looking at adams arguments i assume he would think so. so lets put the 1 platform in the middle of the stage, its perfectly balanced. BUT id rather be talking about real stages.


chopping up LE's post, i think these are a good base for discussion:

-blastzones
-Hazards
-walk off deaths
-Stage is entirely too big and allows for effortless camping
-Stage is prone to stalling
-Stage is prone to infinite combos
-May severely hinder any character's recovery. (i.e. Ness on Fourside)
-Stage moves or alters in a way that supports the above qualifications
-underneath temple 400% effect

though keep in mind no stage is perfect for all characters. the group of neutral stages should be the few best stages we have, even though they are going to differ.

 

[SuperRad]

i hope atlus actually put me on his ignore list ****


get ****ing ***** you dumb noob

 

[Kouryuu]

I'm so used to seeing Brendon spam terrible posts that I just can't bring myself to actually read what he's posting, no matter how long it looks.

This is what spamming does to you.

 

[SuperRad]

I'm so used to seeing Brendon spam terrible posts that I just can't bring myself to actually read what he's posting, no matter how long it looks.

This is what spamming does to you.

you should be glad anyone takes the time to read your ******* posts

 

[Adam M!]

kouryuu's posts may often be terrible, but there's something to be said for distinct personalities. cookie cutter spamming, on the other hand?

 

[The Greater Leon]

I'm so used to seeing Brendon spam terrible posts that I just can't bring myself to actually read what he's posting, no matter how long it looks.

This is what spamming does to you.

2 bad

i think a good way to get a lot of participation in this conversation, if anyone even cares, would to dissect each stage 1 at a time (kind of like the backroom's weekly brawl character threads)
would get lots of input, but i dont want to start doing it and no one cars and look like a ***