Tiers? (Include an explaination)

[jayrico]

I think tiers change as the player get better. For example with only the basic knowledge of moves (smash attacks, rolling, throws, projectiles...) most people think link is the worst character but in my opinion as a player gets better link becomes more of a mid-tier character.

"You've got some big explaining to do if you have Ness below Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff.
And Samus above Yoshi, Mario, and Luigi. No "screw explanations" bs."

I agree with Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff being better than ness. Ness is a great character as a beginner because of his quick roll, strong throw and strong smash attacks but as a the player's skills gets better Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff become better characters because they have better combos than ness which can inflict a huge amount of damage in a short period of time. I guess some people can argue that as you get better you also learn how to use ness's double jump cancel but i think the combos of Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff are more useful.

I think Samus is almost as good as Mario and Luigi but, they're just a little better. I think Mario and Luigi's better throw and ability to perform combos better combos makes them just a little bit better than Samus.

"The only things Samus has that are remotely redeemable are her Dair and Bair which have incredible speed and priority, making the quite spammable since she sucks at everything else."

Yeah Samus's roll, throw and combo ability sucks but being good with her involves a lot of mind games. Her up-b also has great priority which makes edge guarding her and dairing her a bit more difficult than other characters. Her down-b (bombs) is underused by most people and this can be used to avoid being thrown or attacked. Her down-b can also be used when coming back to the stage which makes it hard to edge guard off the stage because her bombs are going to be in the way. Her short hop d-air if used properly can be overwhelming at times. Also at around 70-100 damage her d-air (while the other character is one the ground) and b-air combo is one of the best finishing moves in the game.

As i said before I think tiers change as the player get better and there could be three different tier systems.
basic tier (for level 2 to level 3 players)
advance tier (for level 4 players)
elite tier (for level 5 players)
(Go to this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=50864 to learn more about the levels)

 

[KESHIKI]

Let's just play---. Malva is still better than many people in almost all character. Let's just get better and beat him. ^o^ Then talk. lol

 

[Atomic Chameleon]

I cant see why everyone is putting donkey kong in the bottom...

DK has THE BEST B-special charge move, it does 36 damage in one hit. I DONT CARE how long it takes to charge up, there are plenty of times youll have enough time. His reverse throw kicks *** too, especially in a small level. then i like to use his air + forward A move and knock my opponent down over the ledge.

Of course, I am a loyal fan of Kirby and i would put Kirby, DK, Pikachu, and Fox in the top. And For the bottom, Jigglypuff Luigi and ... Ness. Yeah i kno, im one of the few who does not like ness. I like his throw, but he has no VERY distinguishable power hits. Good combos, just not much distance.

Kirby with DK punch power is still the best though.

 

[platinum kirby]

DK punch doesn't matter. Infinite throw trap and giant punch cancelling do.

This is the generally accepted tier list at the Gamefaqs' SSB Board:

- TOP

Pikachu (best comeback, Up-tilt, extreme priority on most moves, great edgegaurding tactics, extremely good combo ability, throw range, throw strength)

Kirby (Lots of disjointed hit boxes, easy, damaging combos, multiple jumps, great air to air game, 2nd best comeback, great edgeguarding tools)

Ness (Double jump cancels, ability to easily break a shield, two of the strongest throws, good combo abilitie, u-tilt priority, yoyo is a disjointed hit box, good roll)

- High

Fox (easy killer combos, infinite against higehr characters, 2nd best running speed, fastest character overall, d-tilt disjointed hit box, reflector cancelling, neutral A poke, good throw, short hop->double laser) (cons: easy to edgeguard, bad hit-recovery)

Falcon (ridiculously easy juggles, monstrous throw range, throw is a combo starter, Up smash, decent edgeguarding skills) (cons: worst hit-recovery, very easy to edgeguard)

- Middle

Jigglypuff (has a lot of killer combos, throw is a combo start that leads to said killer combos, good comboabilitie overall, good comeback) (lightest character, few keep away tools, weak priority overall)


Yoshi: (double jump cancels, which also benefit from the 2nd jump resistance X_X, parrying, great combo starter [U-tilt], neutral A poke, good air-to-air game, good edgeguarding tools) (cons: easy to be comboed, "somewhat" easy to be edgeguarded)

Mario (balanced character overall, amazing projectile->throw game, fairly good comboa ability, great smashes, decent comeback and edgeguarding tools) (somewhat light character, has some bad match-ups)

- Low

DK (infinite throw trap. throw-giant punch combos, giant punch cancelling mind games, B-air, good dash->throw, good edgeguarding tactics) (large target, 3rd worst hit-recovery, slow ground attacks and aerials [unless Z cancelled])

Luigi (several Up B set ups, fairly good combo ability, good dash dancing, good normal attacks, high jump. He's pretty much about his fairly balanced attacks and Up B) (cons: light, slow aerial movement)

- Bottom

Samus (Best hit-recovery, spike, B-air, F-air, Neutral A, invincible start-up on Screw Attack, bomb mind games, F smash, good comeback and fairly decent edgeguarding tools) (cons: slow aerial movement, horrid throw, 4th lightest character)

Link (Great and several disjointed hitboxes, monstroues projectile game, great smashes, great normals, fairly quick movement) (Cons: awful throw, worst comeback, 2nd worst hit-recovery)

 

[marthmaster04]

This is just my oppinion on the tier list from the different players I've played.

Top Tier
Kirby (honestly Kirby can **** endlessly, is a decently hard character to edgegaurd and has the best edgeplay and edgegaurding that I've seen. The only problems I can see is that he's light enough to KO early in his stocks)

Ness (The top tier is kinda hard since it's so close, but I definetly think Ness deserves 2nd in the top. His aerials simply **** and can kill at low percentages. The only glaring reason not to put Ness on tip top is his recovery can be easily stopped by jumping out with an aerial or jumping into the thunder)

Pikachu Pika is a great character with his aerials, his combos at mid percentages can lead right into a KO. And his Airs can combo right off to the side of the screen. His one glaring weekness from my experience is his weight. He can be comboed from low percentages right into a smash.



Mid]

Fox This was almost a tie between him and pika. Everyone knows fox can combo from 0-death and his shine can really screw laggy recoveries. Drills, tilts and that up smash can devastate someones stock. The one major drawback though is that fox's recovery blows, hardcore. He can be simply throw off a level and edgeguarded till the user makes a mistake or is too far off to recover. Tho even with this against him, no one should EVER underestimate him.


Jigglypuff Those who don't use jiggly or dont play against him enough dont know the broken power jigglypuff can possess. Rest combos in the right hands will murder anyone that gets in the way. And a decent recovery makes for a decently balanced character. Though while the recovery is good, it can also be jiggly bane. Unless the user knows to use pounds to recover jiggly is out of luck, and his recovery can be edgeguarded till he cant fly anymore. Leaving jiggles for dead.

C.falconOh the broken U-airs how falcon users love them, the base of an experienced falcon users moves will in most cases be his U-smash to U-air combos. These combined with a decent throwing game can be murder to other players. But like others it's all too easy to **** falcons crappy recovery. Fox users could simply just Back throw to shine and go through his lives like a knife through butter.

Mario Mario is the median of what characters are based on, he's well balanced and has a good recovery that can really be mixed up. Fireballs make him hard to edgeguard against, and his aerials and ground game are great in the right hands. He has no major pros or cons that I can see or that are worth point out in the long run.

LuigiWith the exception of a couple of moves Luigi is pretty much the same character as Mario. The only difference between mario and Luigi that I can see is that Luigi may be lighter (I'm not really sure on this) and Luigi has combo's leading into his killer UP-b. One more thing that may hold him back is he's easier to edgeguard Since his fireballs go straight instead of falling. Meaning he can't cover his recovery like Mario can.

Yoshi Yoshi is a DJC monster, tilts and aerials make him somewhat of a great comboer. And his edgegaurding can be a pain to get past. The one weakness as many would have guessed is his absent 3rd jump. This means when edgeguarding against him all one in some cases would have to do is simply hang on the edge. If he goes for the last ditch F-air or egg throw, simply roll out of the way.

DK I hate playing against good DK users, grabs grabs and more grabs. Did I mention he ***** with grabs? A good recovery makes him a hard target to edgegaurd and his reach is quite the annoyance. There's a couple of things tho that keep DK from a higher tier spot. Numero uno im my mind is his size. He's a huge target, making combos all the easier on him. two, his speed makes him even more of a target. Even with z-cancels he can be a slow moving target.

Bottom

Link/Samus I can't really put neither of them on the very bottom for good reasons within the characters themselves. Both have bad(link) or punishable(Samus) recoveries and both have decent projectiles they use in they're own way to **** players that will underestimate them.

Remember this is just my oppinion.

 

[quak]

DK has to be around at LEAST mid teir. His chain throwing of the two best levels is ridiculous

 

[rokimomi]

Ummz, why havent most people noted Ness' Dair near a ledge? I get EVERYONE with it.

 

[mood4food77]

so, because it's not what makes ness, ness

 

[phrozted]

Uh, the existence of a single good move doesn't make a character good or bad. The rest of the character's moves have to be conducive to an auspicious enough battle to allow for said move to actually shine. That said, Ness's D-Air is awesome, no question about it, but he's insanely weak if you get HIM caught over the edge, so it almost (almost) ends up a wash. However, he's got enough goodies to make him a high character on most lists, just not the best.

 

[rokimomi]

Yes that's true, I can pull some combos with him, but I usually get hit away (somehow). I just wanted to state that point. Hope you diddent get the mesage that I thought that move made him.

 

[marthmaster04]

DK has to be around at LEAST mid teir. His chain throwing of the two best levels is ridiculous

Yeah DK's grabs ****, but if you play against him and draw the DK user away from comboable areas it makes him an easy target. Especially since most DK users will just sit there dash dancing back and forth trying to grab you. Well, thats what they do from my experience.

 

[Captain_Obvious]

"You've got some big explaining to do if you have Ness below Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff.
And Samus above Yoshi, Mario, and Luigi. No "screw explanations" bs."

I agree with Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff being better than ness. Ness is a great character as a beginner because of his quick roll, strong throw and strong smash attacks but as a the player's skills gets better Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff become better characters because they have better combos than ness which can inflict a huge amount of damage in a short period of time. I guess some people can argue that as you get better you also learn how to use ness's double jump cancel but i think the combos of Fox, Falcon, and Jigglypuff are more useful.

How can you say that anybody has better, more damaging combos than Ness? Yes, these characters that you have mentioned are excellent comboers, but Ness can bounce you up and down throughout the level without you being able to do a thing. This counts as a better combo to me. You can't pass off Ness' DJC so lightly. It gives him a lot more maneuverability and makes his trajectory near-impossible to predict. Play someone who's good with Ness, and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Also, Pikachu has excellent combos, but I've already wrote a treatise on that.

- Captain R.D. Obvious

 

[phrozted]

Kirby, Pikachu, and Fox are better than Ness. Period. Next question.

 

[BETA]

In response to recovery:

I'd say that Pikachu and Luigi have the best recovery in the game. Luigi is better than Samus and Link because of being able to return better than them. Pikachu's is fast, making it difficult to counter. The only way to counter it, pretty much, is when the enemy just does the ordinary straight up, then straight over.

Kirby's can recover him from a great distance, but a poor priority makes it easy to counter. For example, drill kick it with Mario, then nair him out of distance of the ledge.

Fox's is good too, since you can aim it, but it's slow and easy to anticipate.

Mario has good recovery, but not the best.

Yoshi's is decent as well, but the disadvantadge he has is obvious.

Jigglypuff has really good horizontal recovery, but has the same disadvantadge as Yoshi.

Ness's is also too slow, and having to fall back to the level after using it leaves him wide open.

Samus and Link were officially ****ed over by recovery. It saddens me that the game developers didn't notice this imbalance. IMO Captain Falcon is in a close 3rd for worst recovery. I'd also list DK as 4th worst.

Tiers, in my opinion, for recovery:

Top:
Pikachu
Luigi

High:
Kirby
Yoshi
Mario

Mid:
Fox
Jigglypuff
Ness

Low:
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon

Bottom:
Link
Samus

Those are my opinion for recovery rankings. Please make any adjustments you think would improve that list.

Kirby, Pikachu, and Fox are better than Ness. Period. Next question.

Question: In what ways is Fox better than Ness?

 

[Captain_Obvious]

Woah, woah. What do you mean, "Luigi has one of the best recoveries in the game"? All he has is his Luigi Tornado and a B-up. Pikachu and Kirby have the best two recoveries in the game.

- Captain R.D. Obvious

 

[BETA]

Woah, woah. What do you mean, "Luigi has one of the best recoveries in the game"? All he has is his Luigi Tornado and a B-up. Pikachu and Kirby have the best two recoveries in the game.

- Captain R.D. Obvious

Both his secondary jump and his up B go higher than Mario's, if I recall right, and that combined with the Luigi Tornado makes it pretty good. Kirby's, like I said, can be countered by a sex kick. It'll knock him out of range to up+b to the edge again.

 

[phrozted]

Beta, that has to be a joke. I understand if you enjoy playing with Luigi--maybe you think he has personality. But your ranking system is ridiculous.

Honestly, I don't know why the heck this thread exists. It should be a reference post, instead, and it should be locked. It's degenerating into nothing more than people defending the characters they play with most or that they have a hard time beating when their friends play them.

Luigi as the second best character in the game--I mean, that statement barely deserves a response. It's almost funny, but it drives me to tears at the same time. His dash attack is absolute ****, he has mediocre edge-guarding moves, a mediocre B move, and despite what you say about his Up-B, it is nowhere close to Kirby's. Priority means **** if you've got correct timing. Kirby's sword is invulnerable. Thus, time and place his move correctly--so that you grab only the edge--and you tend to be able to get back more effectively. Also, what you have to understand is this: Kirby's Up-B doesn't HAVE to be as good as Luigi's, because it comes attendant with all of his other jumps. It's about the entire package.

But WAIT. Even if it wasn't about the whole package, Luigi's Up-B would only be okay. It has a nice scream, but it's not main combat material.

Listen, seriously: this game is about one thing--keeping people off of the edge. Thus, the characters that win are those that can best do that. For that reason, Kirby is the best character in the game. Very few people worth **** will disagree with that. Pikachu is probably second best because of his aerial skill and ability to cross all the way out into no man's land to kill you when you're off the map--again, keeping you off. Fox might as well have an Up spike and is a terror for that reason. Combine speed, a quick throw, and very fast combat (especially Down-A), and you've got one of the best. Falcon is probably fourth best, although some may even say he's better than Fox.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining all of this at length. There's no way to describe the dynamics of video game players effectively on paper. Play the game more.

 

[Weather]

You wrote such a lengthy reply when you only bothered to look at the list.
If you read his post, you would've noticed it was a tier list on recovering back to the edge.

 

[moogle]

A recovery tier list? How about...

Top
Pikachu

High
Kirby
Jiggly

Middle
Mario
Luigi

Low
Everyone else, in some order

Bottom
Link

 

[nookrulz]

I'd agree with moogle that Mario's recovery is better than luigi's. The difference in fireballs more than makes up for whatever miniscule difference there is in distance.

 

[phrozted]

Oops, you're right. I didn't bother to read that. I apologize.

 

[BETA]

Oops, you're right. I didn't bother to read that. I apologize.

LOL Ironically I almost posted a reply against you without reading this post. I don't play Luigi BTW.

I forgot about the fireballs Thing is, they are NOT going to help you when you're below the stage nearly as much as a higher jump is. Both have advantadges over the other regarding on the situation.

I'm not claiming to know everything about this game. Again, please correct anything you think needs correction.

What do you all think are the recovery tiers?

 

[Captain_Obvious]

Pikachu
Kirby
Ness
Jigglypuff
Samus
Mario/Luigi
Fox
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Link

Well, Pikachu has the best recovery in the game, as he can use any trajectory he wants to sweetspot that edge, is invulnerable throughout all but 2 points in his B-up recovery, and he can drift himself across the stage to beyond where an opponent can punish his moderate landing lag. He is also the only character that can recover from falling underneath the stage.

Kirby has the second best recovery, for he has great vertical and horizontal recovery range, due to his 5 jumps and up-B. If sweet-spotted, the Final Cutter is a nearly unstoppable recovery move. He can also dance around in the air off of the edge in order to throw off his opponent.

Then I would say that Ness has the third best, as his recovery has huge range both vertically and horizontally, and has a giant second jump. He's also tricky to edgeguard (unless you have a nice fsmash with a disjointed hitbox) because he can hit you and KO you if you aren't careful.

I was going to put Jiggly at 3rd, but I moved her to 4th because though she has intense horizontal recovery potential with her 5 jumps and neutral B Pound attack, she runs out of puff after a while and has no b-up recovery for vertical assistance.

Samus goes at 5th, because with her bombs she has great horizontal recovery (not incredible, but not bad), and she has a pretty decent up-B, as well as great grab range on the edge.

Mario and Luigi tie for 6th, because Mario has fireballs to protect his horizontal approach, but Luigi has the extra distance for the vertical approach.

Fox goes at 7th, because he simply has his rather easily edgeguardable Firefox (I'm such a hypocrite), and has no projectile to defend his recovery (it's really hard to get Fox to stop lasering and do his up-B).

Yoshi is at 8th, because though he has no B-up recovery, he has the massive second jump that can slam through many attacks. However, he doesn't have any good long range recovery, as it's so easy to tap him to his doom after he reaches the peak of his 2nd jump.

Captain Falcon goes at number 9, because he has a very predictable recovery that is easy to edgeguard. It's above those below it, though, because of the Falcon Punch giving a little extra horizontal distance and the possibility of grabbing the opponent with the Falcon Dive.

Donkey Kong comes in at 10, because he has no vertical recovery to speak of. You can spike him at 0% and he won't be able to get back to the ledge. However, he has a pretty good horizontal recovery and has a very big hitbox on it, so you sometimes get hit before you can edgeguard, or your attack with get action blocked.

And finally, very last, we have Link. He's heavy, his projectiles don't help his recovery, he can be killed at 0% simply by back-throwing him off of the side of Peach's Castle where the platform isn't. His projectiles don't help his recovery (I hate it when I catch my boomerang just as I'm about to grab the edge and miss it), and his recovery is very momentum-oriented (i.e., if he's falling, he's not going to get as much height as if he's rising). Yep, his recovery sucks.

And that's all there is to say about that.

- Captain R.D. Obvious

 

[moogle]

The main reason I put Mario above Luigi is because Mario's up-b has such high priority and knockback (I'm not considering Luigi's sweetspot up-b... you aren't going to be doing much of that when recovering). With Mario's up-b, you have more options to deal with someone who wants to edgeguard you, namely if you hit them with Mario's up-b (whether they're on the stage, or jumping out to hit you), you probably have a safe return to the stage.

Now, imagine if Fox's up-B went twice as far, but took twice as long to charge up, and it took twice as long to recover after you land. Would you take it? Well, that's Ness's up-B recovery, and I'm really not sure which I think is better, but Ness and Fox should be close to each other on a recovery tier list.

 

[BETA]

@ Captain:

I know of Yoshi's disadvantadges, but how come he gets 8th, and Ness gets 3rd, when Ness has one of the same disadvantadges, and Yoshi can down+b to the edge?

 

[rokimomi]

Could you explain to me about Down+B'ing to the edge with yoshi. I think I have an Idea of it but never tried it.

 

[BETA]

Sure thing. When you are over the edge (at a point in which you'd be able to grab onto it if you were level with it) press down+b and you will drop down to it. Make sure to release down+b as soon as you press it, or he won't grab. It makes it so you aren't vulnerable to hits from way high up.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Wow, all of you who put Donkey Kong at the bottom in SSB....you people are ridiculous. I can't believe some of you actually claimed you played SSB while at the same time saying DK was one of the worst around. If you want a real tier list, I'll give you the top players through all of the yeras that I played SSB, in order but not set in stone, some can outmatch others...

Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Fox
Ness
(believe it or not, I always ignored kirby in SSB, always thought he sucked cause I guess I didnt try enough with him, but I cant ignore other people's comments that Kirby was one of the best)
Link
Luigi
etc....

Just to make a couple of points, a good Ness could never beat a good Pikachu, period.

A good DK would rarely lose to a good pikachu. That is a fact. I dont think many of you gave Dk a chance when you played as him. He is unbelievably AGILE, key word there, regardless of his size. Many of you say he sucks because of his size, and saying he *runs slow*...I don't think its possible for me to hear more ridiculous comments. I think most people that played as DK just didnt play correctly. You have to start out with his air moves and move on to throwing when they're vulnerable. My brother being one of the best Pikachu's around, he only beat me 1/10 of the time as pikachu when I played as DK. (Of course I was the better player anyway, as my pikachu would beat his pikachu most of the time) I havent played ssb in many years, but I will replay that game just to prove this very point. I will also play any kirby out there, because I don't believe that he has anything on a real DK player.

 

[2_Percent]

yea, your list is wrong.
jigz isn't even anywhere near the top and you put dk up there? please..

 

[BETA]

You say "I can't believe some of you actually claimed you played SSB while at the same time saying DK was one of the worst around." and then put Luigi and Link over the rest? Are you new here? And Kirby being crappy? You need to play online a bit more.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I kinda got lazy when I mentioned Link and Luigi. I know that captain falcon is higher, as well as some others.

I didnt say that Kirby was crappy, I said that I always THOUGHT he was and I cant really say much about him because I didnt play as him nor did I face good Kirby's. Since most people say Kirby was one of the best, I can't ignore that. That is what I said.

 

[SmashThugZ]

So, who have you played in Smash?
Im guessing, your little brother and sister, the kids down the street
and the cousin that lives in the next town
And wow, you beat all of them, w00t
You're the best in the whole wide world now.

If you haven't noticed, the world is a pretty big place.

 

[BETA]

I kinda got lazy when I mentioned Link and Luigi. I know that captain falcon is higher, as well as some others.

I didnt say that Kirby was crappy, I said that I always THOUGHT he was and I cant really say much about him because I didnt play as him nor did I face good Kirby's. Since most people say Kirby was one of the best, I can't ignore that. That is what I said.

How do you know that it's not the case with every other character? Perhaps you can't play anyone else, and DK is the only one who's potential you've actually realized?

 

[platinum kirby]

Let him be. Hey Jaws, I'd aprecciate that you take a look at my "List of Advanced Tactics" topic. If you are a player who excels at pulling off 90%+ of all techniques consistently, then I'll respect your POV and be willing to discuss the matter. I highly doubt it tho.

 

[rokimomi]

Wow, guys, why are you arguing over skill:

Skill-
n.

1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. See Synonyms at ability.

You see. I could make a poll, and see who people picked was the worst and work my way up to the top of the food chain. Its all on how you look at it.

Ill admit, i have not used kirby as much as recommmended and same goes for DK but there are REALLY good people who use DK and make vids. So dont hate the player,
hate the game

 

[nomis]

Wow, guys, why are you arguing over skill:

Skill-
n.

1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. See Synonyms at ability.

You see. I could make a poll, and see who people picked was the worst and work my way up to the top of the food chain. Its all on how you look at it.

Ill admit, i have not used kirby as much as recommmended and same goes for DK but there are REALLY good people who use DK and make vids. So dont hate the player,
hate the game

You obviously don't know the meaning of a Tier list.

As for the Top/High Tier, I believe it is among 4 characters (in no particular order):
Kirby
Fox
Captain Falcon
Pikachu

 

[rokimomi]

No, I do, but all of the tier's are including different characters, and so this is all opinion and some fact to your lists. Im just saying that everyone's tier list is who they think is good.

 

[Moocow007]

You can't have individual tier lists, that's not how **** works. A tier list shows the potential of each character at a high level of play and some (Pika) have more potential and advantages than others (Samus). However the game is so balanced that after the first two or so characters, it's hard to evenly rank characters.

 

[rokimomi]

You can't have individual tier lists, that's not how **** works. A tier list shows the potential of each character at a high level of play and some (Pika) have more potential and advantages than others (Samus). However the game is so balanced that after the first two or so characters, it's hard to evenly rank characters.

Then you'd better explain that to the people deniying that character's you guys say are bad they consider good. And there is no official tier because this post was here to answer what the tiers were. First page of answers were all stated as opinions.

EDIT: Lol, i promote peace yet im arguing. Ok, people have opinions and that was mine, so I'll leave it at that. Keep posting tiers and if you guys could, give a topic, like Speed tiers, returns, power, and some averages of everything.

 

[platinum kirby]

I could give you thorough reasons. Just name a character.