Tier positions: Why care?

[fromundaman]

Link to original post: [drupal=1052]Tier positions[/drupal]



So, I always seem to hear character boards complaining that their character is too low on the tier lists and that they deserve higher... WHY? Sure, that's probably true in some cases, but why would you EVER want your character to be higher on the tier list? Think of all the high tier characters; do you know the matchups? Odds are, yeah, you should know what to do, at the very least in theory, against characters like MK, Snake, D3, Falco, etc.

Now think of low tier characters; do you know what to do against Samus, Mario, Yoshi, Ganon, Sonic, etc., or are you just going 'lulz@lowtier!' and walking in the matchup blind, only to get your *** handed to you by CF?

The point I'm trying to make is that the higher tier your character, the more likely people are to know the matchup. So the more you tell people about all your advantages and strive for high tier, the more you're going to find your advantages nullified (like Kirby, for whom ways out of his grab combos have been discovered for every character.), and your matches harder.
Matchup knowledge is probably the biggest advantage you can have in this game; don't give it away.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

this is very true, especially as how in this early stage of the game and the general design of it, it is about match-ups. Know matchups well and your more likely to do better.

 

[finalark]

I choose to ignore Tiers because it puts me into a mindset of either total defeat or cocky victory.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But part of being low tier is the implication that the low tier character has lower priority, speed, power, etc. As result, it is not as much a problem for high tier characters to know the matchup.

 

[fromundaman]

I would beg to differ. Being low tier does not mean you have bad matchups against everyone who is higher tier than you. Take, for example, Yoshi vs MK (this is probably one of the best examples, hence why I use it).

The matchup is I believe 60-40 for MK. HOWEVER, if a MK player does not know the matchup and rushes into it thinking 'lulz at low tier', they are going to get CGed to Uair over and over. At that point they'll try to stay away from the grabs almost exclusively, which will lead to much egg spam, Bair, etc. If they try to gimp Yoshi like they would anyone else (Dair spam or Fair WoP or Nairs), they're going to land on SA, followed by a Uair (which, along with Usmash, kills MK quite early). You get the point.

I beat good high tier players with low tier characters, but usually only until they learn the matchups.
Also, certain matchups just aren't that bad, despite the tier positions. For example, Mario vs MK, or Ganon vs Wario. Not knowing the matchup will therefore leave the higher tier player VERY disadvantaged.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Sooo... you're proposing a short-term solution?

 

[fromundaman]

I didn't realize there was anything to solve...

All I'm proposing is for people stop putting so much emphasis on tiers (not that they aren't important, but that being a lower tier is not an instant loss and vice versa) and instead start learning matchups.

Oh, and I'm also suggesting that players who feel their character is better than they are given credit for stop trying to kill that impression, as it is an advantage.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But I'm making two distinct points.

(1) -- I disagree with the notion in the first place. Playing a low tier surprises a few mid-level players, but top players (using top tiers) will not be affected, even if they have not fought against that particular character in a long time.

(2) -- Even if you are right about "surprising" a top tier opponent, it won't last. Why choose such a temporary path? Why doom yourself to inevitable defeat?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Any game where they try to make the characters "different but equal" will inevitably have tiers. Some characters are straight up better than others. Top players that use high tier know how to minimize their characters few weaknesses, but most importantly they know how to adapt to their opponent. Why put yourself where you have to overcome more weaknesses with less to work with, and try to adapt to each different player.

Btw, most competitive players wont go 'lolz low tier.' if its in tournament or MM they will try their best no matter what.

 

[Teran]

(2) -- Even if you are right about "surprising" a top tier opponent, it won't last. Why choose such a temporary path? Why doom yourself to inevitable defeat?

Everyone has an affinity for a certain character's playstyle. Some players could work long and hard at say MK, and never get good enough to win tourneys. Although maining a low tier isn't going to yield that much success either, your natural ability with that character combined with an opponent's matchup inexperience can cause more than just a one game upset, ie, you may win a set. Of course, higher tier secondaries are thoroughly recommended, but you have to understand it from another perspective. Maybe they just can't click with the high tiers. If you don't feel comfortable with them, you're gonna fail just as bad.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

You're right, you should play as a character you feel comfortable with...this guy is talking about like..using it to suprise your opponent though, beacuse people don't know the matchup.

 

[Teran]

You're right, you should play as a character you feel comfortable with...this guy is talking about like..using it to suprise your opponent though, beacuse people don't know the matchup.

Lol well then he's utterly wrong. Reverse tier wh*ring is just as superficial as choosing MK for his tier position's sake. That's actually even worse, because you're playing a character with many limitations that you're only playing because they're low tier, and not because you have the harmony with the character to overcome these limitations.
Bad logic is bad.

 

[Mith_]

Everyone has an affinity for a certain character's playstyle. Some players could work long and hard at say MK, and never get good enough to win tourneys. Although maining a low tier isn't going to yield that much success either, your natural ability with that character combined with an opponent's matchup inexperience can cause more than just a one game upset, ie, you may win a set. Of course, higher tier secondaries are thoroughly recommended, but you have to understand it from another perspective. Maybe they just can't click with the high tiers. If you don't feel comfortable with them, you're gonna fail just as bad.

In other words, people who were "destined" to main MK will win all the tournies? lol.

 

[Teran]

In other words, people who were "destined" to main MK will win all the tournies? lol.

Like M2K is doing now. He liked Meta even when Snake was considered the best. Since Meta's the best, and M2K actually genuinely clicks with Meta, and well since he's M2K, you get a ****-alicious tourney streak.

 

[fromundaman]

Woah... I think what I said was taken completely wrong. I'm not saying you SHOULD switch to a low tier to surprise people, I'm saying low tiers are not thoroughly screwed vs anyone of a higher tier and can win matches.

You should play a character you're comfortable with. You should also make sure you aren't trying to play matchups 90-10 in your opponents favor. You SHOULDN'T change to a character you aren't comfortable with because they are higher tier and thus inherently better at everything.

What I was really trying to emphasize most though was that matchup knowledge > character tier position. Yeah, you're right, high level tourny players aren't going to get screwed because you pick an unusual character for the most part, but that is because they know the matchups, at least to some extent.
A lot of people, however, don't learn matchups for lower tier characters, then are surprised when they get beat by a vastly inferior character.
Bottom line: This game is heavily based around character matchups. If you don't know the way the matchup works, you are at a disadvantage.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Low tiers are only not screwed vs a top tier character if the top tier character isn't played by someone really good.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Haha alot of times when people lose to low tier characters its a combination of not knowing the matchup and just the player being really ****ing good because he hast o be to make up for his char's weaknesses.

 

[Deleted member]

I would say that even most mid level brawlers have at least a rough idea about the matchup. I would not use a low tier character that you're only OK with to suprise people, but if you're genuinely good with the character, then that's a different story.

 

[Tenki]

Lol well then he's utterly wrong. Reverse tier wh*ring is just as superficial as choosing MK for his tier position's sake. That's actually even worse, because you're playing a character with many limitations that you're only playing because they're low tier, and not because you have the harmony with the character to overcome these limitations.

Even if that's not what the point of the thread is, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

Woah... I think what I said was taken completely wrong. I'm not saying you SHOULD switch to a low tier to surprise people, I'm saying low tiers are not thoroughly screwed vs anyone of a higher tier and can win matches.

You should play a character you're comfortable with. You should also make sure you aren't trying to play matchups 90-10 in your opponents favor. You SHOULDN'T change to a character you aren't comfortable with because they are higher tier and thus inherently better at everything.

What I was really trying to emphasize most though was that matchup knowledge > character tier position. Yeah, you're right, high level tourny players aren't going to get screwed because you pick an unusual character for the most part, but that is because they know the matchups, at least to some extent.
A lot of people, however, don't learn matchups for lower tier characters, then are surprised when they get beat by a vastly inferior character.
Bottom line: This game is heavily based around character matchups. If you don't know the way the matchup works, you are at a disadvantage.

Yes.

Matchup knowledge is really important.

One of the reasons that some Sonic mains are so incredibly vocal in tier threads is because alot of people DON'T know the matchups nor what a good player actually does with the characters, but make generalizations anyway. Alot of us tell people how to beat Sonic, partly to teach them, and partly to get people to stfu with matchup/"you were 132897x better than me!!11" johns. And as more people learn the low tier matchups, we'll get a better feel for how their placements really should be.

Also, last time I checked, tiers didn't determine outcomes of individual matches.

Ganon can be bottom of bottom for all I care, but someone comfortable with his moveset and player habits can easily **** 50% off of you from a single flame choke.

Being low tier doesn't make a character a sandbag, it just means they're "worse" overall than the characters above them. Both people who argue for and against ________ "to be higher tier" really seem to think that sometimes -_-;

 

[Rain(ame)]

If you're asking why people complain about their character needing to be higher up on the tier list, it's pride. Most people can't accept the sad truth about their characters. It's like someone not being able to see that just because person A does a little better against person B, that person B won't get further in tournament. Sure...Yoshi does surprisingly well against MK...but what about his other matches? It's like what has been said before....it's a temporary fix. You can't rely on lack of match up knowledge forever.

 

[lordhelmet]

I main Captain Falcon and Ganondorf (Bottom 2), and I can generally **** people.

But I was playing melee the other day were Falcon is #6(?), and at the end of all the matches I had 51 kills while everyone else had at most 20.

 

[FireKirby7]

lol true. PK Thunder mindgames catch so many off guard.
If Ness were high tier, people would study all the things Ness can do. I guess there is a good side to low tiers...
When I played my first pro Ganon, his..... usmash cancelling thing really got me. XD

Maining low tiers is fun.