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Tier List Speculation

mimgrim

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
9,233
Location
Somewhere magical
Skyrim isn't a multiplayer game with a competitive scene. There's also a huge difference between asethitcs and whole new thinhs or changes to mechanics. Big hwads and light sabers in Skyrim are, by far and large, just asethitics. Story changes or major mechanic cjanges and yes the argumwnt could be made it is no longer Skyrim.

But none of that matters because Skyrim is a single player game people play for themselves so they can do w/e they want.

PM on the other hand is a multiplayer game with a competitive scene. Casually and by themselves and with friends they can do w/e they want with PM, and more power to em. But when it comes to the competitive scene its a whole different story.

3.6 is the final released build by the PMDT and therefore is the final official build of PM regardless of any future goals they had with it. Just like any other game. Add onto yhe fact that creating a universal ruleset with external stuff just isn't feasible, we have a hard enough time as is with just doing that with in game assets.

And sure adding in Knuckles might npt seem like a big change but then where does it end? Why not include that Riddley mod someone else made? Why not make further changes to characters? Why not make more legal stages? The list goes on. Add in one thing like Knuckles and it just becomes one big slippery slope.
 

bboss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 29, 2016
Messages
478
Location
New Brunswick, Canada
At the end of the day, this game is a hack made by fans for fans. The definition of a Project M player shouldn't include which version one's playing. What does it matter what the PMDT intended when it's their players who play the game and have the power to pick what they like and don't like about it.
Knuckles will never be accepted by the Project M competitive community. There will always be a couple of people in each region going "Knuckles, Lyn, Isaac" with the other 99% opposing them. The realistic truth is that Knuckles will never make it into the game and be accepted worldwide on the competitive scene.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
Back to discussing 3.6 tier lists folks. Discussion of that other stuff isn't allowed here on Smashboards.
 

muleet

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Messages
76
Back to discussing 3.6 tier lists folks. Discussion of that other stuff isn't allowed here on Smashboards.
Excuse me but, it seems a little strange to me that the rules of discussion on a thread that seems so dead, are so strict. I have a deep respect for you as a game designer, but calling the possibility of Knuckles coming in PM, an "other stuff", while :
- he was lovingly developed for months or years by the PMDT which you were in ;
- I honestly don’t see how Nintendo or Sega would care at that point.
With that in mind it doesn’t seem a simple “other stuff” to me. I certainly do not understand how you feel about Knuckles in PM, and yet your opinion is clearly more valuable than mine, but if I may say one last thing on that matter, I still don’t see why you wouldn’t be optimistic of the outcomes on the PM community if you were to say that you encourages PM players to play with him or against him.
It may be naive of me, but I see only good outcomes, coming from such a declaration. Good outcomes for PM in every way.

That’s all I wanted to say, sorry to have been out of the subject of the thread.
 
Last edited:

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
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Messages
26,545
The rules of the forum are not designed to spark the most amount of discussion, they are to establish what is appropriate to discuss. The activity or inactivity that follows is simply an organic result of what people are interested in discussing.
Hey, Strong Bad. What's your current tier list?
I haven't really sat down and made one in a long time. TBH, I have been pretty unplugged from the scene since I moved to California, so maybe I'm not the best one to ask. It seems like people are coming around to a few of the things I've been saying about character strength for a while, and in some other cases they've gone in the opposite direction of what I think. Which is OK.

here's a 5 minute tier list

SSS Tier, absolutely must be banned immediately: Charizard

S
MK Wolf Mewtwo

A+
Diddy Fox Sonic Sheik

A
G&W Wario ZSS Falcon Snake Lucas Peach

B
Marth DK ICs Lucario ROB Falco Ness Mario Toon Link Pikachu Ike Charizard

B-
Luigi Samus Ivysaur Roy Link Squirtle Pit Zelda Olimar

C
Puff Ganon Yoshi DDD Kirby Bowser

Not really interested in discussing or defending the list, since I didn't put much time into it, but enjoy.
 

Wolf_

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
242
Location
Rhode Island
Are these legit tier lists now? Sorry last time I was playing there were still updates being made to the game
 

_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
549
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Eh. Lots of people wouldn't have, for example, Peach and Pikachu so high, but like... lots of different opinions exist still. The opinions have converged towards an established group of viable and less viable characters, with specific placements being relatively unsure, and some characters being contentious (is Fox one of the best, or just pretty good?). Stuff like that.

Wolf_ Wolf_
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
Been outta the loop for like three years now, but getting back into PM. Who's making strides in the meta now?
 

Bazkip

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
3,136
Location
Canada
hey, yall still alive? we got a new tier list to argue about


The competitive Project M scene has seen many changes in the four years since the now-disbanded Project M Back Room published the third-ever official Project M tier list. In March of 2020, Project M became Project Plus, a massive game overhaul complete with new mechanics and balance changes. As a result, the community experienced a re-emergence of popularity and competition, only to crash back down to the harsh underground reality of competitive Smash mods. Still, the community made another defiant refusal to sink quietly into the shadows, and we saw the birth of the Project+ "shadow major" in 2021. Undertow, Shipwrecked, Blacklisted 6, and Jailbreak all showcased huge upsets and new breakout stars, which of course means that it’s time to revisit the creation of a community tier list for our game.

This list, coordinated by Sabre and Motobug, is the first official tier list released for Project +. It was created using ballots from the following players:

Blue
Boringman
Cloudburst
Comb
Fearless
Kycse
Malachi
Motobug
Nogh
Rongunshu
Tealz
The Doctor
Yono

Players were asked to rank the cast. Their ballots were then averaged together with outliers removed to avoid having any one ballot dramatically skew any character’s placement. This methodology, adopted from the PMRank ballot process, is used to compile the aggregate opinions of top-level representatives from a variety of regions while mitigating the potential impact of any significant single outliers on the overall tier list.

All that being said, we present without further ado the first official Project+ v2.29 tier list.




Text Version:
S Tier: Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus, Wolf
A+ Tier: Sonic, Mewtwo, Wario, Sheik, Fox, Captain Falcon
A Tier: Knuckles, Marth, Lucario, Ice Climbers, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mario, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Ivysaur, Falco
B Tier: Charizard, Pit, Link, Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, Pikachu, Ness, ROB, Squirtle, Toon Link, Peach, Bowser, Olimar
C Tier: Snake, Kirby, Samus, Ganondorf, Yoshi, Zelda
D Tier: Luigi, King Dedede, Jigglypuff


For those curious about some of the biggest changes in the Project M/+ meta and competitive scene over the past few years, below are some short write-ups on the most notable differences from the PMBR v3 tier list back in 2017.


Knuckles
The most obvious change from the previous tier list: Knuckles is now in the game! The newest addition to Project+ debuts at a respectable 10th place on the list, with every ballot placing him within at least the top 20. His fast frame data, great recovery, and brutal kill confirms have led the character to great success at the hands of players such as Yono and Motobug. With Knuckles being the most underdeveloped character in the game due to his recent release, his meta is still filled with potential for growth.


Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus jumped up 11 spots on the list, now joining Meta Knight and Wolf in the S tier. While Blank’s phenomenal performances at events like Even Bigger Balc in 2018 heralded her rise in Project M, 2021 saw an onslaught of newly-minted Zero Suit mains convinced of her potential, with PMRank 2019’s #1 player Malachi leading the charge. Her quick aerials and great aerial maneuverability make her great at juggling opponents off of any opening, and equally fast frame data on her normals make her a consistently effective close-range scrapper.


Ike
Even though Ike received few significant changes in Project +,the community has only recently begun to recognize the strength of his kit. Players such as Envy, Pikmon, Rongunshu, and metroid have earned a top 8 placement in several events over the past few years, including Even Bigger Balc, Undertow, Blacklisted 6, and Jailbreak. Ike is now bringing consistency as one of the best heavies in the game due to his burst movement options out of Quick Draw combined with his huge normals range, resulting in his rise of 11 spots on the tier list.


Project Plus Reworks
Two of the most hyped-up characters upon the release of Project+, Bowser and Pit, both received significant changes that generated a lot of excitement among the scene. Their massive reworks have enabled a jump up of 9 and 13 spots respectively on this list. Thanks to Malachi, American Bowser, and Sosa, both characters have made occasional appearances in national top 8s, and have plenty of representation at the lower and mid levels. While neither character is considered a top tier in Project+, their reworks went a long way toward mitigating fundamental weaknesses the characters had in Project M, and subsequently increased the community’s confidence in their viability.


Former Top Tiers
As any meta develops, there are winners and losers. Mr. Game & Watch and Snake were both ranked among the game’s best characters in 2017, but fell by 14 and 18 spots respectively on this year’s list. There are two primary factors for this: actual balance changes to the characters, and a lack of representation in the recent meta. Both characters received significant changes in Project+: Snake had his C4 kill setups toned down and Mr. Game & Watch had nearly every move in his kit nerfed to some degree. Because of the balance changes, many of the players who had previously showed off these characters’ strengths moved on from their old mains or moved on from the game entirely. For Snake, Flipp and Professor Pro are no longer competing regularly in Project +, while for Mr. Game & Watch, Forrest (formerly MrLz) is inactive, and both Pikmon and Drugfreechu play other characters now. As a result, both characters have declined significantly in their tournament results in 2021, and their placement in the new tier list reflects that.


Decline of the Floaties
Some of the biggest declines on this year’s tier list come from characters that received little to no changes through Project+: Luigi, Peach, Samus and Toon Link. This can be attributed to the following factors: Peach and Toon Link are no longer as well-represented in today’s scene due to Malachi and dvd respectively switching mains, but also the overall metagame development of the last few years has made the game at the top level less friendly to floaties. Characters such as Luigi, Peach, and Samus struggle harder than ever to find openings, and more polished defensive play further reduces their already meagre punish opportunities on non-fastfallers. By association, Toon Link, often seen as a floatie-killer in Project +, has also dropped on the tier list because the meta no longer heavily features the characters against whom he has the best matchups.



Despite the fall of many floaties on the tier list, it is important to note that the four majors that took place in 2021 were won by Mario, Charizard, and Ice Climbers. Perpetual low-tiers such as Kirby and Ganondorf had some of their best results in PM history last year. The Project+ meta continues to evolve, and every character has been and can be played at a top level in the right hands. Today’s article is meant to capture a snapshot of our top players’ meta and to generate discussion among the community, not to dictate what the game will always look like. Thank you for supporting the Project+ scene through 2021, and we look forward to what 2022 has to offer for our community and the greater smash community.


Credits:
Organization and Writing: Ryan “Sabre” Weinberg
Organization and Graphics: Paul “Motobug” Canavan

Additional Editing:
Kate “kate” Hluska
Devin “Reslived” Gajewski
Stude
 

Hat N' Clogs

John Tavares is a Leaf
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
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Southern tier NY state
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hey, yall still alive? we got a new tier list to argue about
I personally really enjoy the new tier list. I think it's pretty darn accurate given how the meta is right now.
Some observations:

Mewtwo missing out on S tier is a surprise to me. But, him being top 5 is still appropriate.

IMO the best ordered tier is A tier. I love everything about how that tier is organized down to the order of it.

My main, Ness, being a solid mid tier and finishing 27th feels very right. I'm glad to see that people still think of him as fairly viable, considering I've heard some anti-Ness bias in the past from some of my friends.

I expected Bowser to be higher. Mid tier is fair for him but I thought he'd rank somewhere around Zard or Pit's level.

Seeing G&W and Peach in B tier and Snake in C tier is weird to see given PM, but a good call and expected. They don't feel the same like they were.

This tier list proves how well balanced this game is. This my favorite Smash game of all time, and one of the reasons why I love it to pieces is how well-balanced this cast is.



Great job, voting committee. This was a joy to read.
 
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