Tier List Speculation

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why not pull a smash 4 and have it in a fixed order?

Same with Peach's Fsnash, please and thank you.

Sounds like it would solve the rng issue while adding a game plan to both players.

 

[steelguttey]

peachs fsmash is already like thatbut

set order is just an awful idea that will never work in a fast paced smash game because it requires farming to be effective. you should be rewarded from doing something right with a pikmin, not making space for a few seconds. i can go on forever about it, its just a bad idea.

 

[DMG]

Ideally Olimar would just exist in Smash without Pikmin

Like really this is perfect, people want Pichu back in right? Make Olichu. Tiny body, big head. Just saved PM, thank me later

 

[Player -0]

Pichu reskin when?

 

[PlateProp]

@ steelguttey but you dont need to fsmash, you can just as easily hop out and ***** slap a spacie with fair as they're recovering. The entire point was "These characters have moves that dont last forever, yet can still edgeguard with the short moves with proper timing"

Way2miss it tho

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Why not just give zss a high priority king ddd nair to effortlessly edgeguard with, what could go wrong. (3.0 mewtwo ) ... My god what have we done.

Also two minor things from a design standpoint that have been bothering me for a while. 1. In a game where movement is half the battle, why is armored dash attacks, as well as faster than size would dictate movement options necessary to make the larger characters viable, not to mention the logic breaking fast fall speed on some of the heavies?

2. While not a major issue, king ddd's down b seems completely out of place in the current game. Besides him having way better edgeguarding tools, I should probably state where this particular move went wrong (imo). It is an infinitely chargeable armored attack once past 100% with strength and speed with no consequence of holding. This means those characters without amazing off the ledge game, are forced to stall out the move till it is used or take a huge risk. This is just as boring as swallowcide 3.02 counter play, and the ledge grab limit works in favor of the person stalling the match. Again nothing game ruining, just something that may want to be objectively looked into that has probably never been addressed. Would be neat to see down b replaced with something more useful to the character.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

I'mma post in spite of my better judgement and ask what exactly has put jigglypuff in such a level of obscurity?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I'mma post in spite of my better judgement and ask what exactly has put jigglypuff in such a level of obscurity?

1. Many people find her boring to play.
2. Between rob and ddd, there are parts of her pros that many feel those characters can do better.
3. There were not that many jigglypuff mains to begin with, and when people don't play against hungry box for a while, her placement keeps dropping.
4. Lastly pm host better projectiles on better characters than melee, and some of her matchups suffer for it.
5. Obscure does not equal bad.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

peachs fsmash is already like thatbut

set order is just an awful idea that will never work in a fast paced smash game because it requires farming to be effective. you should be rewarded from doing something right with a pikmin, not making space for a few seconds. i can go on forever about it, its just a bad idea.

It already does that as is but random, you might get it right away or you gotta farm a lot more to get it.

He would promote that idea even if you made it one or the other. At least one would be consistent and have gameplay with both players.

If the issue is he always wants purples that might be an issue to look at from a design standpoint. I think a fix order would at least focus on a playstyle consistently while could make it faster or slower but you have no idea of it will be.

Spacing and respecting your opponents movement and range is a skill worth rewarding. As well as knowing how to use each pikmin. I think random pulls throws this off balance as is, even if stages are still in this game influencing it like it did in Brawl with his random chance.

 

[steelguttey]

It already does that as is but random, you might get it right away or you gotta farm a lot more to get it.

He would promote that idea even if you made it one or the other. At least one would be consistent and have gameplay with both players.

If the issue is he always wants purples that might be an issue to look at from a design standpoint. I think a fix order would at least focus on a playstyle consistently while could make it faster or slower but you have no idea of it will be.

Spacing and respecting your opponents movement and range is a skill worth rewarding. As well as knowing how to use each pikmin. I think random pulls throws this off balance as is, even if stages are still in this game influencing it like it did in Brawl with his random chance.

he isnt like that, though. he isnt a defensive character that tries to create space, he creates oppurtunities with side b and baits approaches with pivot grab.

a fixed order will make olimars gameplan slower, period. it means to get a purple at the start of the match, you immediately have to run to ledge, side b, wait and pull. depending on the map, you have to wait longer. pikmin farming is stupid and i'd like to see it removed from the game tbh. also it works awfully with the flower system.

but i'd like things like getting a punish, pivot grab or gimping somebody rewarded with something other than a stock. high risk, high reward. its how olimar works. i agree, rng is ****ing stupid, but there are other ways of fixing it other than set order. in fact, i could argue that rng is better than set order. i may be interpreting what your saying wrong but they removed the chances being higher with the stage youre on. all pikmin has a 20% of pluck no matter the type of platform youre on right now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

he isnt like that, though. he isnt a defensive character that tries to create space, he creates oppurtunities with side b and baits approaches with pivot grab.

a fixed order will make olimars gameplan slower, period. it means to get a purple at the start of the match, you immediately have to run to ledge, side b, wait and pull. depending on the map, you have to wait longer. pikmin farming is stupid and i'd like to see it removed from the game tbh. also it works awfully with the flower system.

but i'd like things like getting a punish, pivot grab or gimping somebody rewarded with something other than a stock. high risk, high reward. its how olimar works. i agree, rng is ****ing stupid, but there are other ways of fixing it other than set order. in fact, i could argue that rng is better than set order. i may be interpreting what your saying wrong but they removed the chances being higher with the stage youre on. all pikmin has a 20% of pluck no matter the type of platform youre on right now.

Depends how fast he plucks the pikmin, depends how bad it would be or not, I know it sounds odd here but you nailed what I think about how he works, along with just maybe what I think could be done with him and his core issues in PM.

But yeah I did mean his percentage chance based in stages or platforms, now it is a fixed 20%.

What I still see as a core issue with random though is what if you get the short eve of the stick? I need that blue for a grab but I keep pulling everything but that? And I keep losing the lottery? That's an issue I see happening sometimes and makes him more inconsistent. A fixed order to me seems like it promotes a consistent game vs one he isn't sure what will happen.

Sometimes you get it right away, others you don't and it ends up worse than a fixed order.

If there is another solution that could work, but even in Brawl I never felt comfortable with random picks even with stages influencing it.

 

[zpxociv]

Agreed. It's not like we have to change fox and the other top tiers in a way that makes 14 years of practice meaningless. Fox players want a frame 1 jump cancel shine, top tier speed and priority, op up smash frame data, the ability to safely force anyone to approach and a better nuetral than the whole roster with great followups? Give them less damage and/or KB on most of that stuff.

I highly doubt he wouldn't even still be top tier. Look at Smash 4 Diddy. Even though the damage and KB on his everything was completely butchered he still as all the frame data and neutral tools he always did, his results are still very solid at the top level and I really don't respect any tier list that doesn't have him at least top 5. As a Diddy player I don't even feel I'm forced to change how I play too much since the patch, I just need to win more exchanges than before. But it's fine because I obviously have the tools to do that.

PMDT need to fix Foxwad and that right there- "Give them less damage and/or KB" is how they can without "muh 14 years practice" being lost. NO EXCUSES.

 

[steelguttey]

Depends how fast he plucks the pikmin, depends how bad it would be or not, I know it sounds odd here but you nailed what I think about how he works, along with just maybe what I think could be done with him and his core issues in PM.

But yeah I did mean his percentage chance based in stages or platforms, now it is a fixed 20%.

What I still see as a core issue with random though is what if you get the short eve of the stick? I need that blue for a grab but I keep pulling everything but that? And I keep losing the lottery? That's an issue I see happening sometimes and makes him more inconsistent. A fixed order to me seems like it promotes a consistent game vs one he isn't sure what will happen.

Sometimes you get it right away, others you don't and it ends up worse than a fixed order.

If there is another solution that could work, but even in Brawl I never felt comfortable with random picks even with stages influencing it.

i agree, rng is stupid. i hate it more than mos tpeople. but set order is gonna be an awful way to fix it. through the power of math and statistics its possible to determine that 75% of the time youre gonna get a better lineup with rng than with set order, depending on the matchup.

a way to fix rng has been argued to death, hell even i have had ideas. regardless, set order is just an easy way out and would make olimar a much slower and more risk less reward character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i agree, rng is stupid. i hate it more than mos tpeople. but set order is gonna be an awful way to fix it. through the power of math and statistics its possible to determine that 75% of the time youre gonna get a better lineup with rng than with set order, depending on the matchup.

a way to fix rng has been argued to death, hell even i have had ideas. regardless, set order is just an easy way out and would make olimar a much slower and more risk less reward character.

Could you share the math part? I can't read the reddit in depth ATM of it is in there.

 

[zpxociv]

Why not have stuff like: smash for some pikmin, tilt for another and same thing with the B: this way you'll have smash and tilt stick combined with quick tap or hold press B, giving you four control options for plucking a desired pikmin. There's smash stick+quick tap B= purple, tilt+quick tap B=red, and so on.

 

[steelguttey]

Could you share the math part? I can't read the reddit in depth ATM of it is in there.

ok so lets say were playing against luigi.

the optimal lineup against that slippery ******* is 2 purples, yellow and a white. no blues because hes floaty and your throws are too strong, purples to stuff his janky approach options and yellow for yellow fsmash.

with set order, im assuming we're doing the smash 4 cycle, we start with 4 pikmin, red, yellow, blue and white. great, we have 2 of our 4 desired pikmin. throw the red, pluck. you get a purple, congrats! throw fair with yellow so you can throw the blue, pluck, and you get a red. you have to whistle, throw, pluck over and over again until you finally pluck a purple. then you can start having an optimal lineup. with rng, theres always a chance you will have this optimal line up and, like you said, theres always a chance we can get 4 blues or some wack ****. i'd rather have a 20% chance of getting the pikmin i want, then have a 100% chance of getting a pikmin i want after shuffling for so long if i want duplicates. lemme copy and paste the tldr from my reddit post so you get the gist of my idea

• every time you get a smash, your antenna glows purple and you get a purple, every time you latch a pikmin onto somebody you get a white, every time you get a grab you get a blue.

• you start the match with two reds and two yellows

• you no longer flower through time but instead flower by hitting people with pikmin

leaf pikmin, power, knockback and knockback angle are the same, bud has properties in between flower and leaf, flower is the exact same as 3.0 flower

Why not have stuff like: smash for some pikmin, tilt for another and same thing with the B: this way you'll have smash and tilt stick combined with quick tap or hold press B, giving you four control options for plucking a desired pikmin. There's smash stick+quick tap B= purple, tilt+quick tap B=red, and so on.

because dassa silly. you arent rewarded for anything and you instantly get 4 purples and insta win some matchups. you didnt really do anything that you would do if you had rng to be reward. its a direct buff and kind of a crutch

 

[nimigoha]

It would be interesting to give Olimar 5 Pikmin, one of each, they don't die, Fsmash doesn't go over the ledge (like dsmash does now or animation changed to be like a short horizontal Pikmin chain). Side B they do set hits but they fall off and go back to you if hit as if you whistled.

Drastic AF change. Would obviously need to rework a whole lot of stuff, especially flowering, but it would get rid of the RNG people hate so much. It would also normalize the **** out of him and take away several of his interesting mechanics but I think he would be better off.

But I'm looking forward to playing with a single Pikmin because recovery doesn't depend on it anymore.

And I think the Pikmin reward system is the best.

There are just so many possibilities. All tradeoffs.

 

[steelguttey]

people have suggested that idea but the most important part is coding and fsmash losing its good part, the part where theyre falling and basically shiek needles.

also 'splodey whites are awesome and would be kinda silly if they didnt die

yea, solo pikmin olimar is gonna be ****ing sweeeeet, yellows are gonna help the marth mu so god damn much and having like 2 purples and a blue is gonna be awesome against people with no projectiles. 4 pikmin is probably gonna be optimal most of the time tho

 

[Jelinek]

It would be interesting to give Olimar 5 Pikmin, one of each, they don't die, Fsmash doesn't go over the ledge (like dsmash does now or animation changed to be like a short horizontal Pikmin chain). Side B they do set hits but they fall off and go back to you if hit as if you whistled.

Drastic AF change. Would obviously need to rework a whole lot of stuff, especially flowering, but it would get rid of the RNG people hate so much. It would also normalize the **** out of him and take away several of his interesting mechanics but I think he would be better off.

But I'm looking forward to playing with a single Pikmin because recovery doesn't depend on it anymore.

And I think the Pikmin reward system is the best.

There are just so many possibilities. All tradeoffs.

Is this a new change for 3.6?

 

[RelaxAlax]

I like Oli.

He's fun. I like rng bc everyone knows RNG is hype as ****. That recovery fix is all I need to take him seriously as a co-main.

They're gonna nerf f-smash, aren't they? They're gonna take away such a good gimping move lol

 

[steelguttey]

nah im just gonna confirm real quick that fsmash (thankfully) aint gettin nerfed

but rng is hype when its stiches or 9's but olimars is just like.. there

 

[nimigoha]

The problem with Olimar's RNG is that it doesn't go away. You have to actively get rid of it. Waddles, turnips, and hammers are finite but you have to chuck away Pikmin, leaving you open. Or not chucking, and now you're at a disadvantage.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I said in the post "The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order."

My bad, sorry. My point stands, though - it's all but completely undeniable that those characters do not belong in anywhere near the same tier.

There is some notable dissent about Pit, though. Calabrel thinks he's good. I think he's stark raving mad, but Pit can definitely do some cool stuff.

 

[Ogopogo]

nah im just gonna confirm real quick that fsmash (thankfully) aint gettin nerfed

but rng is hype when its stiches or 9's but olimars is just like.. there

Here's an idea. I hate that it came into my mind and hope it never gets implemented in any smash game ever, but wanted to know what you thought of it.

What if Olimar had no pikmin variety? Just one pikmin that had no pros or cons like different hitlag, throw strength, elemental attributes, etc. Just an overall good pikmin. Or the pikmin would still look different but be the same in every other way.

 

[steelguttey]

what if spacies had all the same shine? what if we made every character the same?

lets just play fox dittos

 

[nimigoha]

what if spacies had all the same shine? what if we made every character the same?

lets just play fox dittos

Let's just make every character Fox and make every move Shine.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

It has somehow been ~30 pages since I posted a tier list that got mostly ignored in

I only disagree with samus being so low, she is extremely good.

 

[Ningildo]

It has somehow been ~30 pages since I posted a tier list that got mostly ignored in favor of a cluster**** of **** slinging. I'd like to try and have some discussion that is actually about tier lists, so I'll post it again. Like literally copypasta, disclaimer and all.




Ok I'd like to post a tier list despite being some random scrub. I'm sure I'll get a ton of flak and be disregarded no matter what I say, and I am fully aware that I will be wrong somewhere.

The side-by-side characters are not in any kind of order. The split between the upper and lower halves is arbitrary, I just did that so there were some guidelines. Honestly I think the last row of Upper and first row of Lower are pretty close.

And yes I know all the characters can do insane things, and everyones viable, and yada yada is mid-high. At the end of the day, someone has to be in the bottom half. Please don't disregard this post just because I put your character in the lower half. And just because you can prove to me that they are a good character does not mean the ones they are tied with aren't just as good! And of course I'm biased because I don't have experience with everything and even then it would be with regards to my character, so I can't see everything.

I think its sad that I feel compelled to add such a disclaimer because of all the **** I see people get for their lists. I don't have much confidence in this anyway, I just wanted to throw something up here so we could get back to talking about Tier Lists instead of design philosophy, buffs/nerfs, the theoretical skillcap of characters, or whatever. Please discuss.

Characters I'm willing to put in some kind of exact order







Remainder of Upper Half


Lower Half

Yoshi should be higher, Ness a bit higher, Meta Knight as well.
I would say Oli as well, but I'll wait for 3.6 9.9

Yoshi has DJC, Heavy Armor to force through things with his DJ, pretty godly CC game, a decent projectile and tough to kill due his weight. Still craps himself over footstools, but there's not much else holding him down that much (besides not being fox). Mid for sure.

Ask Boiko about Ness. Hell, type in Ness in the search bar and you'll see him post wall of texts in defense of the character. I doubt if he's a solid mid tier but he's not exactly bottom tier material either.

Meta Knight still gimps with the best of em, and has a great variety of recovery mix ups. Being weak to CC and being the second lightest character in the game, iirc, don't help much, but DD abuse to bait and punish can help with the former and not getting hit can help with the latter. Unsure of where he stands now, though.

It seems that half of the bottom seems to be lack of representation in the tier list poster's scene and the other half bandwagoning the fug on a character (See Oli). I'm sure there are other characters that could get bumped higher, but those stood out to me the most.

 

[eideeiit]

So if we're tossing around Oli suggestions, here is mine:

Olimar has 5 pikmin. When he has them all, he'll always have one of every color. The order he'll pluck them in is random.

I tried to go with something simplistic and probably easy to code. I feel this system would normalize Olimars MUs to some extent, as in you'll never have to face 5 purples with Ganon (idk about Oli MUs). It would also retain some of that adapting to what you have stuff.

I presume the PMDT's already thought of this. I can think of some cons to it, but am not confident on whether they're actually true or not.

 

[Beets]

@ steelguttey , I know you have strong feelings about Olimar. I personally feel that the way he works now is fine, with regards to RNG. You may have stated your opinions numerous times before, but could you go over what you would like to see as far as the "Optimal Olimar", in your personal opinion?

 

[steelguttey]

@ steelguttey , I know you have strong feelings about Olimar. I personally feel that the way he works now is fine, with regards to RNG. You may have stated your opinions numerous times before, but could you go over what you would like to see as far as the "Optimal Olimar", in your personal opinion?

rng is just a bad idea when he relies on it so much. all of his matchups rely on him having an optimal lineup. personally i think he should be rewarded for doing things correctly. i made a reddit post above about this

So if we're tossing around Oli suggestions, here is mine:

Olimar has 5 pikmin. When he has them all, he'll always have one of every color. The order he'll pluck them in is random.

I tried to go with something simplistic and probably easy to code. I feel this system would normalize Olimars MUs to some extent, as in you'll never have to face 5 purples with Ganon (idk about Oli MUs). It would also retain some of that adapting to what you have stuff.

I presume the PMDT's already thought of this. I can think of some cons to it, but am not confident on whether they're actually true or not.

some matchups sadly require having 2 of the same pikmin or pikmin in a certain order, which would make this idea bad

 

[Narpas_sword]

Ideally Olimar would just exist in Smash without Pikmin

Like really this is perfect, people want Pichu back in right? Make Olichu. Tiny body, big head. Just saved PM, thank me later

Almost perfect.

He can still have a pull/toss which throws pikmin but it works like peach's turnips.

 

[Vixen]

An anti spacy upthrow would be really nice, but I'm not sure how it could be implemented without it being busted against non-spacy characters. If it were possible somehow, that'd be perfect.

But anyway, the move I had in mind would replace her upsmash and would be kinda like the first hitbox of up-b, but wider and shorter (kinda like roy upsmash, but not multihit) with low lag. Not gonna try to explain the knockback right now because I'm really tired and I couldn't really tell what would work and what would be busted without testing it.

EDIT: You know what? **** it, just give her ganon dthrow AND a sex kick nair. ALso, her fair sucks make it an instant semi spike. Also, make every move comb into that fair at all %s and also hahahah it's sheik, get it?

ZSS's uthrow is perfect for fast fallers. The **** are you smoking? What she needs more than a marth-esque grab is a reliable way to actually grab them. If a spacie doesn't want you to grab them, you're not going to.

A lingering hitbox move would accomplish far more than buffing her up throw or overall grab game because a buffed throw would have the exact same problems vs characters life wolf. we can rack up the damage but not actually secure the kill. at least fox and falco are fairly reliable to kill because their up b have lengthy start ups and their forward b doesn't just outright BEAT your aerials if you're even the slightest bit imprecise.

 

[Vixen]

Don't mind the troll, he enjoys complaining about his character while not allowing others to say anything negative about theirs For what it's worth I play ZSS on occasion and also noticed this issue. It's particularly odd since graphically her plasma attacks look like they linger but uh... They just kinda don't.

Have you checked her plasma attacks in debug? They're particles. A bunch of hitboxes that appear at each joint of her plasma whip, but they're each only active for a moment. Explains why while the attack stays out for a while it will often times just not hit the opponent.

 

[eideeiit]

some matchups sadly require having 2 of the same pikmin or pikmin in a certain order, which would make this idea bad

I meant less from a balance and tiers perspective and more from the design aka. remove dumb stuff no one likes.

And wouldn't a situation like that, where Oli admittedly has a lot of bad MUs, allow for better balancing in the future? As it is now it would be kinda dumb to buff a certain Pikmin in any serious way, because it would make some MUs impossible for the opponent when you get more of said Pikmin, but with this system it becomes possible to buff a certain type because you can be sure no character has to face a 90:10 MU just because the Oli had the time to pluck 4 purples or something. (Tho you can argue that Oli deserves it if he can set it up)

And wouldn't it be possible to mess with down-b to give Oli more options for the order?

 

[SunJester]

Olimar always having 1 of each Pikmin (IE: if he throws away a Red and a Yellow, the next two Pikmin he plucks are going to be a red and a yellow) seems like the best solution to the RNG of Olimar.

Just normalize the Pikmin a bit so you're not screwed if you cant have 3 yellows or something. Make each Pikmin marginally (but noticeably) better at certain things. Normalize the Purple Pikmin a bit more so he's not just fishing for the high knockback of the Purples. I think it would still keep the diversity of the character without being dependent or screwed by RNG.

Alternatively they could have a system like Shulk's Monado. Where Olimar will only use one Pikmin unless forced to change with Down-B, Side-B or F-Smash. Each pikmin could have radically different attributes and with strengths and weaknesses to balance them out.

Ex: Reds are the best for ground attacks, bad for air.
Yellows are the best for air,but bad for ground.
Blues are great at throwing but not great for attacking
Purples have great KB but bad damage
White have good damage but really crappy knockback that leaves you open.

Obviously these aren't concrete ideas and shouldn't be taken as one. They're just crappy example ideas. Also this would be absurdly hard to code.

I really think Olimar having one of each Pikmin would be best design wise, which is why the first idea of more normalized pikmin in a set order would be for the best.

 

[DrinkingFood]

purple side b basically replaces purple fsmash but all fsmashes body spacies

its just so hard to code and solve the issue of. set order is an awful idea, ridiculous stuff like taunting for the pikmin you want is worse but the system in place right now sucks even more

Set order on Pikmin pulls is way less awful an idea than RNG. Set order doesn't randomly bone either Olimar or the opponent because lolnopurples or lol3purples. I'm not suggesting that they should STAY in that order once pulled, Olimar of course should have freedom to arrange them through various means, the goal of having set order isn't so that Olimar has to use a certain sequence of pikmin (and thus a certain sequence of their respective good moves) but rather to normalize the number of each he gets in a game. I get that there may be coding issues, but I see no other good reason to not have it in if we could. It'll be a shame if Olimar stays the way he is and never really be a viable solo main in tourney once the meta develops due to people eventually being able to take advantage of him when he lacks purples, which is bound to happen a few times in each tourney

Just realized I responded over a page later, whoops

 

[Foo]

ZSS's uthrow is perfect for fast fallers. The **** are you smoking? What she needs more than a marth-esque grab is a reliable way to actually grab them. If a spacie doesn't want you to grab them, you're not going to.

A lingering hitbox move would accomplish far more than buffing her up throw or overall grab game because a buffed throw would have the exact same problems vs characters life wolf. we can rack up the damage but not actually secure the kill. at least fox and falco are fairly reliable to kill because their up b have lengthy start ups and their forward b doesn't just outright BEAT your aerials if you're even the slightest bit imprecise.

WHAT?!?! How is her upthrow perfect for fast fallers? How bad is your regions DI? lol If by Perfect, you mean "can CG on no or bad di at 65% and MAYBE with some nearly frame perfect inputs get some regrabs on good DI around like 70-80, but only twice at most because it basically sends them at the same angle that fthrow sends a floaty. From one of your vids, here's what good DI on upthrow looks like. https://youtu.be/tSClIuSlx-4?t=12m56s As you can see, even at that %, still no chain grab, just tech chases. If you'll notice, though, you got plenty of follow up off of it because he rarely DI'd correctly.

We cannot rack up damage, that is the problem. At best, you can land some two hits combos off stuff like uptilt or flubbed DI on moves like dtilt and upair at high %s. Upthrow never combos unless they flub DI. It's only worth is tech chasing, and maintaining a DI mixup between it and fthrow on ledge.

Why should zss be buffed in every matchup when her spacy/falcon matchups are the only things that are stopping her from being totally fine? Giving her a sex kick or marth grab range is something that would give her a boost in every matchup, but that would be too much. It would help make spacies more doable for sure, but turning the rest of her matchup spread more favorable is not something that needs to happen. She is a really polarized character in terms of matchup spread. She bodies fatties and gets wrecked by the true fast fallers. We don't want to make her autowin against fatties, beat her even matchups, and go evenish with her current hard matchups. Straight buffs is not what you give to a polarized character.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Just to be clear and I don't want to make a big deal out of it but DarkBlues doesn't like to be identified as a male. He identifies as Megaman. DarkBlues specifically wants to be Identified as a Reploid who was design to revolutionize mankind. He finds it offensive to be refereed to as a he and would really appreciate if everyone refers to him as what he feels most comfortable as.


@Dark Blues I know it's not my place to point **** out like this, but I think its best for the world to know/refer to you as the person you really are.

 

[steelguttey]

as a prerequisite, everything im about to say assume its in the realm of coding because i know next to nothing about that stuff.

I meant less from a balance and tiers perspective and more from the design aka. remove dumb stuff no one likes.

And wouldn't a situation like that, where Oli admittedly has a lot of bad MUs, allow for better balancing in the future? As it is now it would be kinda dumb to buff a certain Pikmin in any serious way, because it would make some MUs impossible for the opponent when you get more of said Pikmin, but with this system it becomes possible to buff a certain type because you can be sure no character has to face a 90:10 MU just because the Oli had the time to pluck 4 purples or something. (Tho you can argue that Oli deserves it if he can set it up)

And wouldn't it be possible to mess with down-b to give Oli more options for the order?

if you lose to one pikmin of a certain type, it doesnt multiply when you get another one of the same color. it does get worse, dont get me wrong, but it isnt changing 6-4 matchups to 7-3 or something. what set order does is it makes getting an optimal lineup wayyy to hard to be considered a buff, even if your chances are slim with rng. pluck, throw, whistle, repeat until you get your optimal lineup. pikmin farming just isnt health for olimar or the game because it rewards campy and defensive (not saying all defensive gameplay is bad) play.

Olimar always having 1 of each Pikmin (IE: if he throws away a Red and a Yellow, the next two Pikmin he plucks are going to be a red and a yellow) seems like the best solution to the RNG of Olimar.

Just normalize the Pikmin a bit so you're not screwed if you cant have 3 yellows or something. Make each Pikmin marginally (but noticeably) better at certain things. Normalize the Purple Pikmin a bit more so he's not just fishing for the high knockback of the Purples. I think it would still keep the diversity of the character without being dependent or screwed by RNG.

Alternatively they could have a system like Shulk's Monado. Where Olimar will only use one Pikmin unless forced to change with Down-B, Side-B or F-Smash. Each pikmin could have radically different attributes and with strengths and weaknesses to balance them out.

Ex: Reds are the best for ground attacks, bad for air.
Yellows are the best for air,but bad for ground.
Blues are great at throwing but not great for attacking
Purples have great KB but bad damage
White have good damage but really crappy knockback that leaves you open.

Obviously these aren't concrete ideas and shouldn't be taken as one. They're just crappy example ideas. Also this would be absurdly hard to code.

I really think Olimar having one of each Pikmin would be best design wise, which is why the first idea of more normalized pikmin in a set order would be for the best.

having 2 of the same pikmin makes some matchups much better, though. it removes a fun part of olimar that really isnt a problem. nobody is going to lose a matchup harder because he has 2 of the same pkmin if they lost because he had 1 of one kind of pikmin. all it does is makes options olimar can do easier, not harder for the opponent.

the first thing that was said in the olimar 3.5 patch notes is that theyre normalizing pikmin. you saw how that went. pikmin's strengths in terms of how they should be like purples being for ko's, blues for grabs etc is all good right now, nothing really needs to be changed except a few buffs in a few places. making it so close to eachother just ruins the fun part about olimar, because you wont care if its all close to each other.

this has been suggested before but it ruins the idea of using different pikmin for different strings and combos. for example, if i grab a faclon with a blue and i have a white next, im gonna dthrow and tech chase with a grab. i cant do that with purple because i dont have grab range to make up for my not fast enough run speed. but if i have a purple next, i uthrow and fair which puts him in an edgeguarding situation which will lead to a stock pretty quickly. if the shulk idea was implemented, i would have to do something esle before i can get a different follow up, which ruins that character-specific healthy flowchart stuff.

the way his pikmin work now is fine, they really dont need changes because youre kicking out rng.

Set order on Pikmin pulls is way less awful an idea than RNG. Set order doesn't randomly bone either Olimar or the opponent because lolnopurples or lol3purples. I'm not suggesting that they should STAY in that order once pulled, Olimar of course should have freedom to arrange them through various means, the goal of having set order isn't so that Olimar has to use a certain sequence of pikmin (and thus a certain sequence of their respective good moves) but rather to normalize the number of each he gets in a game. I get that there may be coding issues, but I see no other good reason to not have it in if we could. It'll be a shame if Olimar stays the way he is and never really be a viable solo main in tourney once the meta develops due to people eventually being able to take advantage of him when he lacks purples, which is bound to happen a few times in each tourney

Just realized I responded over a page later, whoops

yes, that is a problem with rng. but like i said before, the statistics for an optimal lineup will nearly always mean that we can get an optimal lineup faster and not have to make space for so long because we have to farm. theres very few ways to arrange them right now. you have to do stuff like side b, fair, then call the thrown pikmin back. its just not efficient for a face paced game. normalizing isnt always good, especially for a high risk high reward character. it just makes him bland. something that all 3 of you arent realizing is that set order isnt the only way to remove rng. it needs one prerequisite, you get a pikmin. theres an infinite amount of ways of doing this, just think outside of the box.


edit:

Just to be clear and I don't want to make a big deal out of it but DarkBlues doesn't like to be identified as a male. He identifies as Megaman. DarkBlues specifically wants to be Identified as a Reploid who was design to revolutionize mankind. He finds it offensive to be refereed to as a he and would really appreciate if everyone refers to him as what he feels most comfortable as.


@Dark Blues I know it's not my place to point **** out like this, but I think its best for the world to know/refer to you as the person you really are.

yea dude, transphobia is hilarious! making fun of 1 in 100 people in the world def settles the beef i have with someone who decided to talk **** about my region. i love esports!