Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

yeah I was jking about luigi
except his recovery really is stupid. Just because dong wasn't using Dpad specials doesn't mean luigi's recovery shouldn't be adjusted to compensate for that. If anything, it shouldn't require such a high rate of pressing to get the max height... and the max height shouldn't be so absurd. Luigi can basically save his double jump until he recovers thanks to green missile (especially misfires) and down-b. I could swear i've even hit him out of down-b, and he's still used it to get height. Lets not even talk about that ledge grab box on misfire.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Mashing for height shouldn't be a thing to begin with. Hold B to rise, release to stop, maybe give it like 80% of current max height or something (number pulled out of my ass).

 

[DMG]

I was saving this for the day that Fox needed to be removed, but I'll go ahead and use it for Luigi...

You take Luigi and replace him with a Penguin named Carl.

Carl still wears the Green Hat and Overalls, but he is obviously not a Mario Bro. He is also not a Carl Bro: him being a Carl Bro would normally be a logical conclusion to arrive at but you mustn't forget that Carl is a Penguin.

His moveset would involve arctic ice/water, slipperiness, Penguin beak attacks, Penguin flight (fictional Penguins can fly, everybody knows that), and ofc Salmon Slaps.

He proudly does not end up using his feet directly for attacks, in an effort to spare the humility of being forced into "Happy Feet" references and garbage memes.

He can break shields in any 2 hits, he cannot be grabbed (blame BP oil slick), he has the longest wavedash (surprisingly not oil slick related, but old fashioned KY Jelly), and he shoots ice cubes for a projectile. Mods where you replace the ice cube texture with the face of Ice Cube are strictly encouraged, and any setup caught using default ice cube texture is banned for being scrubby.


I'd ask for your comments and opinions, but I'm way better than most of you Serf Monglers anyways so I'm just posting it to discourage anyone else from attempting to create a character as good as I can.

 

[Deleted member]

I just clicked the like button so ****ing hard on that post

also "the day that Fox needed to be removed" is every day

 

[Ningildo]

DMG, you're a top tier ****poster.

That said, go do so in PMS and get imaginary ego boosts in the form of likes.

 

[DMG]

DMG, you're a top tier ****poster.

That said, go do so in PMS and get imaginary ego boosts in the form of likes.

Oh I'm sorry let me modify my post with this:

"How viable do people think Carl the Penguin will be? Any answer besides top tier is wrong, and ban worthy infraction level"

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

yeah I was jking about luigi
except his recovery really is stupid. Just because dong wasn't using Dpad specials doesn't mean luigi's recovery shouldn't be adjusted to compensate for that. If anything, it shouldn't require such a high rate of pressing to get the max height... and the max height shouldn't be so absurd. Luigi can basically save his double jump until he recovers thanks to green missile (especially misfires) and down-b. I could swear i've even hit him out of down-b, and he's still used it to get height. Lets not even talk about that ledge grab box on misfire.

He gets his down b back if you hit him out of it, which is why you have to wait for it to finish and then punish (which shouldn't be too hard because it has a good amount of end lag).

 

[Idostuff]

I agree, but those are just issues that I find with the character currently. I really do find the misfire and dpad down b to be a bit ridiculous.
I'm not a good luigi, but in terms of matchups i really enjoy wario and ness, lucario sometimes as well. I also find that roy and ike are his easier sword character matchups.
Marth and Ganon are my least favorite matchups, as well as ROB.

Interesting that you find Ganon to be a hard MU, since i think that MU is very hard for Ganon. Maybe i just don't know what to do.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

What kind of armor does squirtle have on his shell moves and in what situations can the armor even be used for realistically at the top level? Is it something that will only really be useful of of the hardest of reads?

Also heavies will remain pointless as long as characters like fox are objectively better then them in almost every way. I'm not sure what advantage heavies like bowser and charizard are supposed to have over speedsters right now. Kill power? Speedsters wrack damage faster and set up kills easier. Range? Fox and friends have the footspeed to get in on disjoints and confirm into a full combo from farther away even without the range. Survivability? They get comboed, juggled, and set up into a kill to the point where they die earlier due to their size anyway.

Here's to hoping that the heavy fix isn't rage if it happens, I would rather have them just have more kill power on finishers or damage per hit across the board. There are better, more competitive and honestly much simpler ways to balance characters than rage. If rage is implemented in pm it would have to be individualized per character, it would be a balance nightmare and even if it was done as well as it could be there would probably still be many people who end up feeling that rage ruins their main's bnbs and kill setups too often. Seems like a complicated and risky move as opposed to just giving heavies meaningful buffs to their kits.

 

[DrinkingFood]

you don't have to read somebody for armor to be useful. Armor generally means you win trading situations
it can either stop combos or prevent them from being stopped, depending on the situation and the move

 

[DMG]

Armor tends to mean "Stop: HAMMER TIME!"

Drop everything you are currently doing because it's about to get real

Smash armor in a nutshell

 

[Frost | Odds]

Meanwhile... I won another tournament with DDD. Although, I went roy until winners finals just for @Umbreon

And I won another tournament with Bowser, though I went Ganon for everything but WFs and GFs. I'm willing to eat crow about Ganon being top tier, I think -- but I'll probably keep playing with him. He's still really, really strong and I'm still super bad with him. That's probably to be expected with Day 2 Ganon >.>

Luigi's side b grab box is pretty borked. ROB is still the best character.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Just lost to anther on netplay, ROB confirmed not the best character, Pika confirmed best character
why does pika's ****ing uair cause knockdown at 0

 

[DMG]

Just lost to anther on netplay, ROB confirmed not the best character, Pika confirmed best character
why does pika's ****ing uair cause knockdown at 0

It's Anther's netplay ladder, he can do what he wanttttt

 

[Boiko]

Surprised no one spoke about Luigi's absurd damage output yet.

 

[robosteven]

Surprised no one spoke about Luigi's absurd damage output yet.

It's because he's not Fox.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Having to deal with your problems by outplaying your opponent by a larger margin is the definition of a peaked metagame.

You're supposed to be outplaying your opponent, thats generally how the game works.
If you think that a character thats as uncommon as DK has peaked in his metagame in a game with 40+ matchups then idk what to tell you.

 

[PlateProp]

Armor tends to mean "Stop: HAMMER TIME!"

Drop everything you are currently doing because it's about to get real

Smash armor in a nutshell

Not for squirtle

He can go through projectiles consistently, but his weight means that even medium armor stops working pretty quick (65-80% depending on the attack and stuff)

Tbh, the only move that medium armor actually works on and isint dumb is nair

But armor is dumb

And nair isint

My mind is destructing ;-; (Medium armor removal and decent speed fsmash when)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Question: what's the deal with the Icies? I rarely see them anywhere. Is it a matter of them not having an infinite anymore?

 

[robosteven]

Question: what's the deal with the Icies? I rarely see them anywhere. Is it a matter of them not having an infinite anymore?

The turnaround bug is a big issue, same with Nana AI, but even with both of those problems they're still pretty good.

 

[Bazkip]

MagicScrumpy has a good idea for how to deal with Luigi

But seriously, I'm gonna throw another "wtf is sideB ledge grab box" post on here cause it's bad design for a character to not overlap with their grab box at all.

Also looking at you, G&W.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Ghost brothers homie

 

[DMG]

Trying to main IC, is like trying to become a Samurai master by using a possessed sword which randomly and constantly tries to kill you. I mean sure, maybe you can out-duel a couple of really good people, but your sword will have a higher number of victories over you than other people!

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Doesn't Luigi's Down Smash first hit do 17%? And its a combo tool...

 

[Boiko]

Doesn't Luigi's Down Smash first hit do 17%? And its a combo tool...

Yes, and god forbid he hits you with grounded down b. 20% into uair>uair>nair and you're already over 60%.

 

[jtm94]

Been on the Luigi hype train for a while now. Nothing has changed. Can still combo into UpB and misfire. UpB KOs characters at 60 from ground on FD, Fox upsmash KOs at 95. Amazing punish game, good recovery, good movement, invincibility on UpB, upsmash, and SideB, and you can't combo him.

I liked the one combo against Oracle it was like DownB > exactly that and Oracle didn't press his DI button once.

I like seeing Luigi win, it's a good change of pace.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The turnaround bug is a big issue, same with Nana AI, but even with both of those problems they're still pretty good.

Maybe it'll get fixed in 3.6. Do they get wrecked by anything else?

 

[eideeiit]

Maybe it'll get fixed in 3.6. Do they get wrecked by anything else?

Peach and campers

 

[The Baron]

Been on the Luigi hype train for a while now. Nothing has changed. Can still combo into UpB and misfire. UpB KOs characters at 60 from ground on FD, Fox upsmash KOs at 95. Amazing punish game, good recovery, good movement, invincibility on UpB, upsmash, and SideB, and you can't combo him.

I liked the one combo against Oracle it was like DownB > exactly that and Oracle didn't press his DI button once.

I like seeing Luigi win, it's a good change of pace.

Wait, upb, has invincibility frames?
And up smash if I'm reading that right?

...wut

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Wait, upb, has invincibility frames?
And up smash if I'm reading that right?

...wut

On startup of up b, it has invul frames. Which is perfectly fine as it allows him to avoid easy gimps (sonic's spring for example). I think his side b invul frames are a bit dumb tho (though they are only very briefly there as soon as you launch), since side b is when you want to hit him out of his recovery (and down b).

He does not have invul on up smash. It did in melee, though

 

[Ripple]

his head is intangible on it

 

[jtm94]

Mario and GnW used to have head intangibility on upsmash, but it was taken away rip.
A lot of characters don't have intangibility on their UpBs but Mario and Luigi retain it. Don't want Luigi to be gimped easily.... That would be awful. I like the part where Sethlon hit Dong away from ledge with dair 4 times and he still recovered.

 

[KhanYe]

luigi is lowkey high tier imo.

he's got that anti-combo thing going, along with his own pretty potent combo game, a storable kill move that ends stocks at 50-60% that you can combo into, great movement, and arguably a top five recovery in the game. i know he loses to swordies pretty handily, but who else does he lose to?

 

[The Baron]

On startup of up b, it has invul frames. Which is perfectly fine as it allows him to avoid easy gimps (sonic's spring for example). I think his side b invul frames are a bit dumb tho (though they are only very briefly there as soon as you launch), since side b is when you want to hit him out of his recovery (and down b).

He does not have invul on up smash.

Makes sense. I've only played a guns an actual weegee once which was you so I'm not too versed on everything he can do except slip and slide and combo breaker nair


Edit: phone typos.

 

[steelguttey]

due to recent events with sethlon and dong

hear me out

i think luigi beats roy texas dont hurt me

 

[PlateProp]

due to recent events with sethlon and dong

hear me out

i think luigi beats roy texas dont hurt me

It's common knowledge that swords have a hard time hitting luigi

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Not for squirtle

He can go through projectiles consistently, but his weight means that even medium armor stops working pretty quick (65-80% depending on the attack and stuff)

Tbh, the only move that medium armor actually works on and isint dumb is nair

But armor is dumb

And nair isint

My mind is destructing ;-; (Medium armor removal and decent speed fsmash when)

Could you explain this a bit? Why doesn't his armor "work" and how is nair different from his other armor moves?

And for the record I'm not sure how any niche tool that a character has such as squirtle's armor, luigi's side b grab box, Rob's mobility etc. can be considered "dumb" when Fox still dominates the meta like he does. If we want Fox to be like Fox for melee players that's fine IMO, but other characters are gonna need some borderline jank to have any chance of competing.

Right now I would rather try to buff the lower tiers than nerf the higher ones even if that's harder to do correctly.

 

[PlateProp]

Could you explain this a bit? Why doesn't his armor "work" and how is nair different from his other armor moves?

And for the record I'm not sure how any niche tool that a character has such as squirtle's armor, luigi's side b grab box, Rob's mobility etc. can be considered "dumb" when Fox still dominates the meta like he does. If we want Fox to be like Fox for melee players that's fine IMO, but other characters are gonna need some borderline jank to have any chance of competing.

Right now I would rather try to buff the lower tiers than nerf the higher ones even if that's harder to do correctly.

Because nair is used for stopping recoveries, but only works because of med armor. Fsmash med armor is dumb because it's slow as hell, and has super high endlag, when itcould just be a normal speed fsmash (like mario fsmash speed) and become way more useful.

Dsmash med armor is stupid because it's only there for 4 frames

Armor above light is just dumb

 

[JOE!]

Wonder why like "link shield" properties can't be applied to bowsers shell or such

 

[Player -0]

Moonwalking for Bower is the new meta lmao