Tier List Speculation

[The_NZA]

In 3.5 I placed him in upper-mid tier. The reduction in range with his tail, loss of disjoint, and nerfs to his UpB, hover, and sideB pretty much made him a worse version of Marth with different specials. The best part of 3.5 Mewtwo was the creative movement he could accomplish through teleports, hovers, and so forth. The addition of landing lag to his UpB is a significant detriment. In 3.5, notably, he had a mixup from the ledge: waveland on or teleport to the stage. He now loses that mixup - the opponent just needs to cover waveland and react to teleport.

etc

I might be theory crafting out my ass but can't you let go of ledge, SB charge left, cancel, and then mixup between float bair onto stage with waveland onto stage?

 

[Boiko]

M2 has a single uthrow->aerial-> regrab. His punishes are very hard on spacies, yes, but a lot of PM players also don't know how to properly SDI.

I really want to reemphasize how important SDI is in PM. As Ness, when I'm juggling with uair chains, Fox can SDI and jump out very early. I imagine it's the same with M2.

 

[The_NZA]

I really want to reemphasize how important SDI is in PM. As Ness, when I'm juggling with uair chains, Fox can SDI and jump out very early. I imagine it's the same with M2.

Before 3.6, Ness's fair became a pretty bad combo tool because of how easily people could SDI into him and throw out a quick startup aerial to punish him. I feel like the extra 1% damage for the first two hits somehow makes SDIing it harder.

 

[eideeiit]

Before 3.6, Ness's fair became a pretty bad combo tool because of how easily people could SDI into him and throw out a quick startup aerial to punish him. I feel like the extra 1% damage for the first two hits somehow makes SDIing it harder.

The first 2 hits got +1% and the last two got -1%, so the window for the SDI is a bit smaller there. The +1% changes shouldn't affect it at all as long as the KB hasn't changed, which is the case according to the patch notes.

So the hitlag on the later hits used to last 4 frames.
floor(3+3/3)=4

But now it's 3.
floor(3+2/3)=3

Also on the first hits it's 4.
floor(3+4/3)=4

 

[The_NZA]

The first 2 hits got +1% and the last two got -1%, so the window for the SDI is a bit smaller there. The +1% changes shouldn't affect it at all as long as the KB hasn't changed, which is the case according to the patch notes.

So the hitlag on the later hits used to last 4 frames.
floor(3+3/3)=4

But now it's 3.
floor(3+2/3)=3

Also on the first hits it's 4.
floor(3+4/3)=4

I know you're saying technically SDI should be easier on the first two hits and harder on the last few hits, which may be what is happening. In general, i find my fair combos are more consistent in this patch, maybe because people tend to start SDIing the later pats of the move which hae less hitstun now.

For those of you still embroiled in the GnW debate and are arguing SDI solves your issues, I wonder how you guys feel about this thread that DF put up a while ago:

http://smashboards.com/threads/about-throws-and-up-b-and-the-reddit-thread-on-diing-them.404608/

Is it possible your GnW opponents are just behind the repositioning and throw metagame? Based on Sbad's post, it sounds like He is way behind GnW's punish metagame and Dakpo having not been playing PM in while may be as well. Could explain why DIing and SDIing behind GnW is enough to get out of combos against those two, but not necessarily against all GnW players.

Honestly, I would rather hear arguments on why GnW being able to escape pressure with his Up B or why making it so jumping out of UpB being enabled only when Up Bing from the ground would be bad for the character? I realize it woudl be a nerf, but how badly would that hurt his punish game?

 

[foxygrandpa]

As for other matchups... Sheik walls M2 out. Marth is like a ditto except you don't have a disjoint (and Roy is worse). Falcon is faster than Mewtwo so that Mewtwo has to make hard reads in neutral whereas Falcon can just react (and has punishes to death).

I talked to emukiller in 3.5 and he told me he thought mewtwo beat sheik. Sheik sorta wins neutral and can shut him down and control space easily but the punish and edgeguard game are kind of in M2's favor. It's 50/50 imo, at worst.
I personally think M2 struggles against ike a little too, but I don't think his matchups beside marth, falcon, (maybe roy idk honestly) are nearly as bad as you're making them out to be.

 

[InfinityCollision]

The only truly bad matchup out of all those you listed in 3.5 was Tink imo, maybe Roy depending on who you ask. Even the Tink matchup was winnable, just hard and not fun. Several of those matchups were roughly even and Samus actually lost to Mewtwo in 3.5. Granted there are other matchups you didn't list that were likely slightly disadvantaged for him (Wolf comes to mind), but his matchup spread was pretty good and I don't see it being that much worse now. Several matchups I'd previously pegged as even to slight disadvantage also saw nerfs on the other end, so there's that to consider too.

Mewtwo is only a worse Peach if you try and play him like Peach while disregarding everything else he brings to the table - vastly better movement and range for example. Or are you going to tell me that Mewtwo is slow and has a poor neutral?

You said it yourself - "were" pioneers. No disrespect to anyone named, but this is a post-3.0 meta now and none of you have really demonstrated significant development or innovation that I've seen since then.

 

[Chevy]

Mewtwo is terrible for Samus. It might actually be her worst match-up.

 

[Boiko]

Mewtwo is terrible for Samus. It might actually be her worst match-up.

Idk, I don't mind it. Too early for me to tell, tbh. I'll grind it out with Frozen more the next time that I see him.

Speaking of bad MUs though. What do you feel Samus' are, in your opinion?

Characters that immediately come to mind for me are Tink, Zelda, Ike, Sheik. And some other that are more debatable like Ganon, Marth, Mewtwo, and Mario. But not too much more beyond that.

 

[The_NZA]

Idk, I don't mind it. Too early for me to tell, tbh. I'll grind it out with Frozen more the next time that I see him.

Speaking of bad MUs though. What do you feel Samus' are, in your opinion?

Characters that immediately come to mind for me are Tink, Zelda, Ike, Sheik. And some other that are more debatable like Ganon, Marth, Mewtwo, and Mario. But not too much more beyond that.

Does Charizard beat Samus? Because i like the idea of that character doing well in some contexts.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Guys I've been thinking about space animal people guys with blasters and asked myself many questions. Why do so many people hate them, why does flaco have a brooklyn accent, do they have metal genitals etc.

One question stood out however: Why does Flaco have one distinctively ****ty aspect while Shine McFox and Donald O'Woofman don't? Aren't they glass cannons? Shouldn't they have at least 1 absolutely abysmal defensive facet?

Flacman is known for his rather mediocre Up-B which leads to ez gimps and makes him die early. I think this alone totally compensates for the fact that he has some stupidly good on-stage stuff.

So don't you think the other two deserve something really poopy? How about we give Fox Squirtle's tech rolls so every tech situation ****s him up even more? Wouldn't that be super fun? Falcio has to avoid getting thrown off-stage so Fox could avoid being put into tech chase situations.

I couldn't come up with a third defense nerf for Wolf. Maybe remove his shield or sth.

 

[Boiko]

Does Charizard beat Samus? Because i like the idea of that character doing well in some contexts.

I highly doubt it. I was kind of working Kysce with Samus at Shots Fired, but idk how experienced he is in the MU.

 

[Shokio]

Guys I've been thinking about space animal people guys with blasters and asked myself many questions. Why do so many people hate them, why does flaco have a brooklyn accent, do they have metal genitals etc.

One question stood out however: Why does Flaco have one distinctively ****ty aspect while Shine McFox and Donald O'Woofman don't? Aren't they glass cannons? Shouldn't they have at least 1 absolutely abysmal defensive facet?

Flacman is known for his rather mediocre Up-B which leads to ez gimps and makes him die early. I think this alone totally compensates for the fact that he has some stupidly good on-stage stuff.

So don't you think the other two deserve something really poopy? How about we give Fox Squirtle's tech rolls so every tech situation ****s him up even more? Wouldn't that be super fun? Falcio has to avoid getting thrown off-stage so Fox could avoid being put into tech chase situations.

I couldn't come up with a third defense nerf for Wolf. Maybe remove his shield or sth.

Because Falco has stupid, screen-long, intangible, spam-able lasers.

I would like to discuss this topic with you guys: What characters do you think are complete in this game? Meaning, they don't need any further redesigns or significant buffs or nerfs. DK for instance I feel is a completed character, and I'm assuming that's kinda why he received no changes in this patch.

("Completed" can also include characters who need maybe 1-2 tweaks)

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I agree with @ Boiko that GAW up B is a bit silly- that said, I wouldn't change it. As of 3.6 my general opinion is that much of the "fun" has been nerfed out of the game (we still play for fun right?) and I would prefer to leave a few borderline indefensible articles of design left in the game. ATM the game feels predominantly over-run by mediocre and situational options that leave the game feeling like a bunch of mid-tiers and very MU heavy. Except of course the characters that have ubiquitous and powerful tools like Marth's dashdance that huge chunks of the cast can never hope to compete with. We are pushing players out of the player base when we remove things like GAW up B, and we should really stop.

I play this game instead of melee, not as another re-branding of it.

This is an opinion that I see a lot in the pm community, and honestly I can't believe it every time I see it. There are only a hand full of characters in this game that feel midish tier to me, generally when you pick a character, you can do exactly what you want with said character, with few exceptions. If you try actually doing that in melee, you'll be in for an extremely rude awakening, as more then half the roster is bad, about a handful are actually good. I get it's fun to do whatever you want with a character, but doesn't anyone get any joy from having to think carefully about their decisions in game, as opposed to the game handing it too you? Do you really need a frame 3 defensive option to be able cancel into a jump and combo as well? Do you really need a 50/50 mixup grab game on top of an already amazing character? Do you really need to have such absurd kill power on top of you're already amazing speed and generally large hitbox size?

I'm sorry umbreon, this isn't an attack on you or anything, your character of choice, or even your opinion, so don't take it like I have some kind of beef with you. When I see you say something like, "this game feels like a bunch of mid tiers", however, I can't help but feel a little disgusted. I play mario, a real mid tier character, in melee, and I had, and still have, a lot fun playing him. He has his good qualities, while at the same time he has his faults, and that makes him incredibly interesting and fun for me. I have strengths to play towards, but also real weaknesses that I have to be mindful of and try to play around, and be mindful of how other character's can exploit them. In comparison, pm mario is bland, uninteresting, not very thought provoking, and just not fun to me because he can do whatever he wants. I don't have to worry about getting the grab, I don't have to worry about getting the kill, I don't have to worry about getting the edge guard, I don't have to worry about my recovery, he has everything...it's boring, and almost everyone in pm is like that, some more so then others. So the idea of buffing more than 5 characters and not nerfing in some way the rest absolutely disgusts me, and I personally think if people need so many polarizing multi purpose moves/attributes on characters to have fun, I hear smash 4 has got a lot of that nonsense

Now before you say that I want everyone on melee mario status, that simply isn't true, I'm not a masochist. What I want is for characters to have attributes and moves that aren't so multi purpose they actually have to be creative with their use, but still have the tools necessary to get the job done, all while being some what unique. I'd say the general status I'd like this game to be at would be a slightly buffed melee doc, kinda in the middle of high mid to low top by melee's standards, which this game is still far from imo. Also before anyone tries to call me out on the fact I play wario in pm, know that while I love the actual character and like the idea of his design, I think he's degenerate currently and I actually despise numerous aspects that character has.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Because Falco has stupid, screen-long, intangible, spam-able lasers.

I would like to discuss this topic with you guys: What characters do you think are complete in this game? Meaning, they don't need any further redesigns or significant buffs or nerfs. DK for instance I feel is a completed character, and I'm assuming that's kinda why he received no changes in this patch.

("Completed" can also include characters who need maybe 1-2 tweaks)

Mario I'd say is a character that is complete. Aside from tweaking that ridiculous up b hitbox, I think the character is done. He's a pretty good character who is heavily fundamental based, with a great combo game, kill power, decent throws, and a good projectile. And he's not "janky" or "unfair" but feels great. I don't think his mu spread is really all that bad, and he might have to work a little harder against characters like marth and space animals, but I don't see him being too strong or too weak at the moment.

 

[Draco_The]

Couldn't the button mashing be made easier for the Mario Tornado so I don't need to set two buttons to special?

set all your dpad inputs to special. this is such a good trick that metaknight's tornado had to be slightly nerfed w/r/t max height since it went to silly levels using it

That seems kinda cumbersome for Mario Tornado's down + B input though.

Actually I'd just like Mario Tornado's button mashing to work just like MK's Mach Tornado. Reaching its max height in both air and ground it's not only easier but also possible with just one button as it is right now. That's something I can't say about the Mario Tornado. No matter how fast someone mashes B there's no way to make the ground version of the Mario Tornado reach its max height, and as for the air version, while it's easier it's still tough.

^^^^^ Mario needs this. Then he will be complete.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Guys I've been thinking about space animal people guys with blasters and asked myself many questions. Why do so many people hate them, why does flaco have a brooklyn accent, do they have metal genitals etc.

One question stood out however: Why does Flaco have one distinctively ****ty aspect while Shine McFox and Donald O'Woofman don't? Aren't they glass cannons? Shouldn't they have at least 1 absolutely abysmal defensive facet?

Flacman is known for his rather mediocre Up-B which leads to ez gimps and makes him die early. I think this alone totally compensates for the fact that he has some stupidly good on-stage stuff.

So don't you think the other two deserve something really poopy? How about we give Fox Squirtle's tech rolls so every tech situation ****s him up even more? Wouldn't that be super fun? Falcio has to avoid getting thrown off-stage so Fox could avoid being put into tech chase situations.

I couldn't come up with a third defense nerf for Wolf. Maybe remove his shield or sth.

Falco's tech roll is god like. When Falco gets a shine in a defensive situation, he can usually net more off of his than Fox can, especially against fast fallers. While Falco's offstage game is in a much worse spot than Fox or Wolf, he has better defensive options onstage, which honestly fits his sort of niche as the dude who's unstoppable onstage but laughably bad once he's pushed off.

And as for fox, his tech roll is pretty unremarkable as is. It's mostly the fact that he has access to a frame 1 jump cancellable option out of it along with a solid spotdodge that make tech chasing him harder. It's not all about the tech rolls, the options they have immediately after are a big part of what makes a character harder to tech chase.

 

[MLGF]

I highly doubt it. I was kind of working Kysce with Samus at Shots Fired, but idk how experienced he is in the MU.

Oh hey! Something I can actually vouch for? Cool.

CT has no Samus' that are worth anyone's time *coughBarbiesuckscough* so I think there's some MU inexperience.
I'd say that Kysce has the most problems with camp-ish out of all playstyles is likely the best explanation. Just looking at his track record in recent times, the only upsets he's ever faced are on campy characters/playstyles.
By looking at how he beats plenty of top players in CT consistently, I think it's likely a character issue at this point. There's no way he's not able to adapt to other playstyles considering his track record.

Stubbornbastardstillrefusestogetasubcharacterwhydoeshedothistome

 

[foxygrandpa]

This is an opinion that I see a lot in the pm community, and honestly I can't believe it every time I see it. There are only a hand full of characters in this game that feel midish tier to me, generally when you pick a character, you can do exactly what you want with said character, with few exceptions. If you try actually doing that in melee, you'll be in for an extremely rude awakening, as more then half the roster is bad, about a handful are actually good. I get it's fun to do whatever you want with a character, but doesn't anyone get any joy from having to think carefully about their decisions in game, as opposed to the game handing it too you? Do you really need a frame 3 defensive option to be able cancel into a jump and combo as well? Do you really need a 50/50 mixup grab game on top of an already amazing character? Do you really need to have such absurd kill power on top of you're already amazing speed and generally large hitbox size?

I'm sorry umbreon, this isn't an attack on you or anything, your character of choice, or even your opinion, so don't take it like I have some kind of beef with you. When I see you say something like, "this game feels like a bunch of mid tiers", however, I can't help but feel a little disgusted. I play mario, a real mid tier character, in melee, and I had, and still have, a lot fun playing him. He has his good qualities, while at the same time he has his faults, and that makes him incredibly interesting and fun for me. I have strengths to play towards, but also real weaknesses that I have to be mindful of and try to play around, and be mindful of how other character's can exploit them. In comparison, pm mario is bland, uninteresting, not very thought provoking, and just not fun to me because he can do whatever he wants. I don't have to worry about getting the grab, I don't have to worry about getting the kill, I don't have to worry about getting the edge guard, I don't have to worry about my recovery, he has everything...it's boring, and almost everyone in pm is like that, some more so then others. So the idea of buffing more than 5 characters and not nerfing in some way the rest absolutely disgusts me, and I personally think if people need so many polarizing multi purpose moves/attributes on characters to have fun, I hear smash 4 has got a lot of that nonsense

Now before you say that I want everyone on melee mario status, that simply isn't true, I'm not a masochist. What I want is for characters to have attributes and moves that aren't so multi purpose they actually have to be creative with their use, but still have the tools necessary to get the job done, all while being some what unique. I'd say the general status I'd like this game to be at would be a slightly buffed melee doc, kinda in the middle of high mid to low top by melee's standards, which this game is still far from imo. Also before anyone tries to call me out on the fact I play wario in pm, know that while I love the actual character and like the idea of his design, I think he's degenerate currently and I actually despise numerous aspects that character has.

I don't think that was umbreon's point. The patch is probably the best in terms of balance but in balancing the game and normalizing matchups, a lot of the flare was removed from the game.
PM is pretty young in terms of metagame development, but it's still a lot farther than it was in 3.02. PM's at the point where character mechanic's as a whole shouldn't be scrapped, and balance should revolve around tweaking moves slightly. In melee, speculating design yields nothing as the game isn't going to change, and that stagnation is what forces the character meta's to be pushed further. Do I think G&W should be able to jump out of grounded upb? No. Would I change it? Definitely not. The time to change it was going into 3.5. (smash DI towards G&W when he's coming towards you is pretty reliable too).
Why I kind of see how the game is being changed to "mid tiers" isn't so much that the character is actually bad, but boring in the sense that the characters are becoming too normal. When a character has a strong tool, then people want it changed almost immediately.
Sheik already differed than the other melee tops in the sense that it was more difficult for melee sheik's to transfer into pm because of the grab differences. There were plenty of options in changing sheik's grab mixups, but the option that was chosen instead was to scrap the grab meta that people spent learning for the past 5 years, where other melee players can still transition flawlessly except for new matchups. There's a reason that the changes were received so poorly. Sheik is one of the few characters in the game that have no reliable conversion of throws while still keeping the chain and transform for some bizarre reason that no one has really addressed. The grab change was meant to nerf sheik's grabs but ironically made her ridiculously centralized off a semi-unreliable throw, making sheik more braindead than ever previously and unable to reliably kill off a grab regardless of percent.
There needs to be a point in PM where we finalize character design, and frankly that should have been into 3.5.
I want link to make people cry under a storm of projectiles, I want M2 to confuse the hell out of people with teleports, I want G&W to be a fragile glass cannon, I want sheik to be able to make people panic she lands a grab. Character normalization is easy for the balance aspect, but it's honestly making the game less fun.

 

[Boiko]

Oh hey! Something I can actually vouch for? Cool.

CT has no Samus' that are worth anyone's time *coughBarbiesuckscough* so I think there's some MU inexperience.
I'd say that Kysce has the most problems with camp-ish out of all playstyles is likely the best explanation. Just looking at his track record in recent times, the only upsets he's ever faced are on campy characters/playstyles.
By looking at how he beats plenty of top players in CT consistently, I think it's likely a character issue at this point. There's no way he's not able to adapt to other playstyles considering his track record.

Stubbornbastardstillrefusestogetasubcharacterwhydoeshedothistome

I see. Thanks for your input. I ended up having to face him in bracket and used Ness. But it's interesting. I'll play more Samus : Zard with other players to see how it feels with someone who knows the MU.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah the problem is that in taking everything powerful out of the game, we've created two major problems-
1. the game just isn't as fun and the player base is being driven out of the game
2. when all of your tools are situational and mediocre in power level, you end up with a very heavily MU based game depending on how those tools interact with each other. if you have tools that are ubiquitous and powerful, you may still have to respect the MU but it's much less because you have the capability to overcome disadvantages and new forms of opposition.

you have to be realistic about how much your character contributes to your success as a player. lots of top players get "exposed" when their character is nerfed, which says a lot more about the game than the individual players when it keeps happening.

@ Mr.Pickle -

perhaps a third and more subtle effect is that the only powerful tools left in the game are those which we refuse to take out because they were grandfathered in- and honestly, dealing with marth's dashdance and falco's lasers in 3.5 was still difficult but certainly doable. dealing with those characters in 3.6 is a different story entirely. having your same old tool kit be able to solve new problems as they arise is good depth and keeps the players coming back as new strategies evolve and develop. in 3.6, a good chunk of that stuff was taken out. i can play marth against your mario and watch you lose to fair for 6 minutes, and it doesnt even have anything to do with you as a player. if that's your idea of "incredibly interesting and fun" then you can continue to play mid tiers and get stuck getting 17th in a bracket over and over because you're okay losing at the character select screen. but for me personally? no thanks. i want the cast to be relatively even, but i also want to be able to have the tools to outplay my opponents when the situation arises. right now, that basically means a lot of people are switching to fox or metaknight, because those characters can do it and everyone knows it. huge red flags imo.

 

[MLGF]

.................You're still doin' this?
Sheik is still really good and plenty of characters are as well. I think you're exaggerating a lot because your character got changed (FYI, characters for the most part were buffed in 3.6 BTW).
It's funny. I didn't think Umbreon was a water type, but it seems it's natural habitat is salt water.

 

[foxygrandpa]

.................You're still doin' this?
Sheik is still really good and plenty of characters are as well. I think you're exaggerating a lot because your character got changed (FYI, characters for the most part were buffed in 3.6 BTW).
It's funny. I didn't think Umbreon was a water type, but it seems it's natural habitat is salt water.

He's not upset over the character being good or not (altough, she's not great honestly, look at meta knight who has an identical grab attached to a better character), he's upset because she's boring as hell, braindead, and that sadly her grabs will never be changed because for some reason people think that her grab game is amazing, even as it is now.

 

[MLGF]

Meta Knight is overall a better character then Sheik?
I kek'd, that Sheik player salt.

He is more fun though

 

[DrinkingFood]

afaik I don't think umbreon went on record as saying Sheik is particularly bad now, or even just "not good"; he just doesn't think she's that fun anymore

Also, buff sheik's uthrow or riot (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I seriously don't see what's wrong with giving this character a good uthrow now that none of her other throws, even in tandem with one another, are anything more than *decent*

 

[foxygrandpa]

Meta Knight is overall a better character then Sheik?
I kek'd, that Sheik player salt.

He is more fun though

Yes, meta knight is better than sheik. Stronger neutral, long disjointed range, better punish game, better juggles, and better recovery generally constitute a better character.
And I main ike lol and I also think that he is better than sheik. But I guess it's just easier to say I'm biased than have a legitimate basis
I just want to point out that ike has a 50/50 mixup between fthrow and bthrow while also having a 100% guaranteed uthrow.
I don't understand why sheik can't have a reliable conversion off a throw. Literally every character in the game has a better throw game than her lol. Sheik is honestly kind of overrated because of how easy it is to be consistent with her, which a lot of mediocre players have trouble with.
I've always preferred the idea of an uthrow change. The tech chasing would be much less free than 3.5 while at the same time retaining her melee bthrow edgeguards.

 

[Deleted member]

.................You're still doin' this?
Sheik is still really good and plenty of characters are as well. I think you're exaggerating a lot because your character got changed (FYI, characters for the most part were buffed in 3.6 BTW).
It's funny. I didn't think Umbreon was a water type, but it seems it's natural habitat is salt water.

nothing says a good argument like making it personal

sheik isn't particularly great atm, she's not bad until the opponent understands that they can just play to CC/DD/Fox and she can't do much about it, and then once they get that she's bad basically.

MK is pretty obviously better than sheik now for anyone that understands good basic play.

 

[Rachman]

This is ridiculous. Someone ironically said that he doesn't want people as powerful as melee top tiers because they don't have appreciable, "real" weaknesses. Like there is a lot of salt towards melee tops in this thread but that's just silly lol

 

[Mr.Pickle]

perhaps a third and more subtle effect is that the only powerful tools left in the game are those which we refuse to take out because they were grandfathered in- and honestly, dealing with marth's dashdance and falco's lasers in 3.5 was still difficult but certainly doable. dealing with those characters in 3.6 is a different story entirely. having your same old tool kit be able to solve new problems as they arise is good depth and keeps the players coming back as new strategies evolve and develop. in 3.6, a good chunk of that stuff was taken out. i can play marth against your mario and watch you lose to fair for 6 minutes, and it doesnt even have anything to do with you as a player. if that's your idea of "incredibly interesting and fun" then you can continue to play mid tiers and get stuck getting 17th in a bracket over and over because you're okay losing at the character select screen. but for me personally? no thanks. i want the cast to be relatively even, but i also want to be able to have the tools to outplay my opponents when the situation arises. right now, that basically means a lot of people are switching to fox or metaknight, because those characters can do it and everyone knows it. huge red flags imo.

I shouldn't be surprised by what I just read, I am however shocked that I could be even more disgusted at something posted here then I was previously. When this game is done, the argument against major changes to the roster can have some merit, but until you don't see a version number by the project m logo, I'd advise you to do away with that notion. This is the third version of the game to feature the entire roster, with the last version taking a drastic departure design wise to it's predecessor, it's not too hard to imagine that this game isn't immune to another drastic turn it's direction in design. I do agree that it's much more interesting having a reliable and consistent tool kit when confronted with new additions to the game, but only when the majority of said game is actually complete, and all that's left is small adjustments and possibly new additions to the roster.

To your ludicrous claim that I somehow derive pleasure when confronted with mario vs marth in melee, I'll have to ask for assistance to the room where they preform chemotherapy, because that matchup is beyond cancerous. I never said that fighting a character without an actual weakness, comparatively, to one that certainly has some is fun, nor am I claiming that melee is short on it's absurdly powerful characters. I do find mario himself interesting because he has legitimate strengths and weakness to play around and against the other members of the roster. If you feel the need to pick a character that gets a free pass at spacing because they have an aerial that comes out on frame 4, covers an extremely large arc, is heavily disjointed, and combos into itself or sets up for one of his other amazing moves, among his other amazing attributes, be my guest. Whatever gets you that W right?

This is ridiculous. Someone ironically said that he doesn't want people as powerful as melee top tiers because they don't have appreciable, "real" weaknesses. Like there is a lot of salt towards melee tops in this thread but that's just silly lol

Comparatively to the rest of the cast, absolutely not. For example, you can't tell me that marth's perceived weakness of having difficulty killing in certain situations doesn't get overshadowed by someone like link, who actually has real problems killing. Am I saying that they don't have weaknesses, certainly not, but when compared to the rest of the characters, their weaknesses look like first world problems, hence why they're top.

 

[Chevy]

Idk, I don't mind it. Too early for me to tell, tbh. I'll grind it out with Frozen more the next time that I see him.

Speaking of bad MUs though. What do you feel Samus' are, in your opinion?

Characters that immediately come to mind for me are Tink, Zelda, Ike, Sheik. And some other that are more debatable like Ganon, Marth, Mewtwo, and Mario. But not too much more beyond that.

M2 is really bad because he can play the tilting game in neutral better than Samus, can very easily edgeguard her, and even carry her all the way to the blastzone on b-airs. Very little is safe on his shield because of his huge wavedash and grab range, leading in to the throw that kills her at 90%.

Tink, Zelda, Ike, Sheik are all tough. Also regular Link. I'd add R.O.B to that list but I haven't played a good one in person yet, especially with the 3.6 changes. Ganondorf goes from 10:90 when you're off to 60:40 when you're playing well lol. Marth is tough, but if you play the matchup the way you would in Melee + Ice it's not bad. Mario is annoying, but out-spacing him isn't too hard, maybe very slightly his favor. So yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Does Charizard beat Samus? Because i like the idea of that character doing well in some contexts.

I've always thought Samus beats him, but I haven't got to play it much since 3.0. He's like Mewtwo where he has all the tools to easily edgeguard her plus a killing throw and other great vertical kill options. He's fat and easy to edgeguard though.

Squirtle has a lot of these attributes too, I feel like once his meta-game catches up he could be a problem for her.

I'm gonna remind everyone again for clarity's sake that all throws ignore weight for knockback calculation. Meaning Samus dies 3rd earliest in the cast to killing throws due to her low gravity, barely behind Zelda, and then obviously Puff. Killing throws are very disproportionately important against Samus because of her otherwise excellent survivability.

 

[Player -0]

Link vs. Samus isn't in Link's favor I think?

 

[Juushichi]

I think Link vs Samus is maybe 55-45 at worst for Samus, probably.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I shouldn't be surprised by what I just read, I am however shocked that I could be even more disgusted at something posted here then I was previously. When this game is done, the argument against major changes to the roster can have some merit, but until you don't see a version number by the project m logo, I'd advise you to do away with that notion. This is the third version of the game to feature the entire roster, with the last version taking a drastic departure design wise to it's predecessor, it's not too hard to imagine that this game isn't immune to another drastic turn it's direction in design. I do agree that it's much more interesting having a reliable and consistent tool kit when confronted with new additions to the game, but only when the majority of said game is actually complete, and all that's left is small adjustments and possibly new additions to the roster.

To your ludicrous claim that I somehow derive pleasure when confronted with mario vs marth in melee, I'll have to ask for assistance to the room where they preform chemotherapy, because that matchup is beyond cancerous. I never said that fighting a character without an actual weakness, comparatively, to one that certainly has some is fun, nor am I claiming that melee is short on it's absurdly powerful characters. I do find mario himself interesting because he has legitimate strengths and weakness to play around and against the other members of the roster. If you feel the need to pick a character that gets a free pass at spacing because they have an aerial that comes out on frame 4, covers an extremely large arc, is heavily disjointed, and combos into itself or sets up for one of his other amazing moves, among his other amazing attributes, be my guest. Whatever gets you that W right?

Are you honestly complaining about marth now? Although marth is good (easy top 10 imo) it's not impossible to play to his weaknesses. He actually is worse in most relevant melee matchups (except sheik but it's still pretty close) because of stage picks.
This game should be immune to drastic design changes. There's nothing broken or poorly designed enough so that it warrants an outright removal or redesign (except maybe bowser idk what to do with him). Most characters have over 5 years of individual meta, and the more "jank" that is taking away from original design goals of making the game fast paced. Are we really going to balance around link as a standard? Is that really a game that you want to be playing? There needs to be a point in which people stop complaining about character design and start getting better. The majority of characters don't even have good top player representatives, while the melee tops do.

And I really don't think that link has trouble killing. I have a lot of link practice with a really good player and his weaknesses are a lot around being generally too slow and losing pretty bad to CC, DD, and high priority hitboxes. And tethers suck.

Comparatively to the rest of the cast, absolutely not. For example, you can't tell me that marth's perceived weakness of having difficulty killing in certain situations doesn't get overshadowed by someone like link, who actually has real problems killing. Am I saying that they don't have weaknesses, certainly not, but when compared to the rest of the characters, their weaknesses look like first world problems, hence why they're top.

You don't think that marth's problem killing isn't overshadowed by roy, who has a similar moveset (different playstyle) but an easier time killing? 95% of the melee tops are balanced but people just hate them so much that they want nerfs for no reason. I've had people complain about my marth and sheik in 3.02. People need to lose the stigma against melee tops, and consider that sheik, who was a melee top, was arguably nerfed more than anyone going into this patch. Theyre not immune to balance. Marth has stayed the same for a reason. Most "jank" was taken out of the game going into 3.5. Characters should have strong tools. Melee tops are good for sure, but the majority of the time when people lose to them, it's because they weren't good enough to win.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I talked to emukiller in 3.5 and he told me he thought mewtwo beat sheik. Sheik sorta wins neutral and can shut him down and control space easily but the punish and edgeguard game are kind of in M2's favor. It's 50/50 imo, at worst.
I personally think M2 struggles against ike a little too, but I don't think his matchups beside marth, falcon, (maybe roy idk honestly) are nearly as bad as you're making them out to be.

In this patch it's probably 60:40 or harder in Mewtwo's favor.

 

[Juushichi]

I think M2 is rather susceptable to throw offstage + needles/slap until they're dead. I would say maybe 50-50 or 55-45 in M2's favor, though.

 

[LupinX]

Guys I've been thinking about space animal people guys with blasters and asked myself many questions. Why do so many people hate them, why does flaco have a brooklyn accent, do they have metal genitals etc.

One question stood out however: Why does Flaco have one distinctively ****ty aspect while Shine McFox and Donald O'Woofman don't? Aren't they glass cannons? Shouldn't they have at least 1 absolutely abysmal defensive facet?

Flacman is known for his rather mediocre Up-B which leads to ez gimps and makes him die early. I think this alone totally compensates for the fact that he has some stupidly good on-stage stuff.

So don't you think the other two deserve something really poopy? How about we give Fox Squirtle's tech rolls so every tech situation ****s him up even more? Wouldn't that be super fun? Falcio has to avoid getting thrown off-stage so Fox could avoid being put into tech chase situations.

I couldn't come up with a third defense nerf for Wolf. Maybe remove his shield or sth.

This is actually a legit concept that can be applied with the spacies. They need weaknesses that stand out more because of their really good neutral and punish game.

Falco should avoid getting knocked off stage
Fox should have a poopy tech roll like Squirtle/Lucas and avoid getting put in a tech situation
Wolf I'm guessing should have something to do with shield getting eaten faster which commits him to play more conservatively (that's just my little guess in things lol)

What do you guys think?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I don't like the idea of intentionally throwing wrenches in characters.. Making them good at one thing should be enough, honestly.

 

[CORY]

and then making tech rolls intentionally trash is also super polarizing and miserable : /

 

[Zigludo]

and then making tech rolls intentionally trash is also super polarizing and miserable : /

hahahahaha Bowser hahahahah Squirtle ahahahaha

at least one of our getup attacks is frame 10 but the rest sucks ;__;

 

[Binary Clone]

and then making tech rolls intentionally trash is also super polarizing and miserable : /

Yeah... If you give Fox a worse tech roll then because of his fall speed many matchups become even more heavily centralized on "grab fox, throw fox, tech chase fox on reaction for 60%+" which isn't very fun for anyone involved. That kind of play is already boring. There are probably better, less unfun ways of making Fox more squishy.